I’m updating my old C-H service panel in order to get rid of a branch circuit run directly from the mains (!–though there is a CB about 7 feet downstream) and to be able to put doubled up circuits on their own breakers. Lots of information in the archives but didn’t find the answers to these particular questions:
1. Is it OK to mount the new box in what I would consider up-side down orientation–that is, the main breakers on the bottom? (Wires will reach better.)
2. Looks like 2 `15A circuits won’t quite reach, in the new box. Should I splice them in the panel box (wire nuts and tape?), or outside the box, in a junction box, or..?
3. Haven’t figured this one out yet: Circuit ‘A’s black wire is connected to a 15A breaker, it’s white is wire nutted to a BLACK in circuit ‘B’. Circuit ‘B’s white is hooked to the neutral bar????
4. This service panel is inside and about 10 feet from a 70A CB that is outside, next to the meter. I believe that means this panel is actually a sub panel and needs a ground seperate from the neutral? There was no seperate ground in the C-H panel and only a circuit or 2 have ground wires. HVAC man says I will need a good ground for new furnace on the way, though.
Thanks for any/all assistance.
Thon
Replies
"1. Is it OK to mount the new box in what I would consider up-side down orientation--that is, the main breakers on the bottom? (Wires will reach better.)"
I will let the pro's answer this one, but note that at least pannels (SD QO) are designed for this and you can reverse the guts.
"2. Looks like 2 `15A circuits won't quite reach, in the new box. Should I splice them in the panel box (wire nuts and tape?), or outside the box, in a junction box, or..?"
If the box meets the volume requirement you can do the splice in the box. But some local inspectors prohibit it. So check first.
"3. Haven't figured this one out yet: Circuit 'A's black wire is connected to a 15A breaker, it's white is wire nutted to a BLACK in circuit 'B'. Circuit 'B's white is hooked to the neutral bar????"
Do you know what is on circuit A. Are the two circuit breakers on different legs of 240?
My best guess in that circuit A is a 240 volt load. Put few things that I can think of would run on 240/15amp. A small AC or maybe a well pump.
Then B circuit is a 120 volt circuit that has been doubled up on the one breaker.
"4. This service panel is inside and about 10 feet from a 70A CB that is outside, next to the meter. I believe that means this panel is actually a sub panel and needs a ground seperate from the neutral? There was no seperate ground in the C-H panel and only a circuit or 2 have ground wires. HVAC man says I will need a good ground for new furnace on the way, though."
Are you sure that the 70A breaker is the main one, or might it feed some other service.
If it is the main one then you need to treat the new pannel as a sub-pannel and bring a ground from the the main disconnect (the 70A breaker) to the sub-pannel.
If the new pannel will be the main then it will connect with the grounding electrode system.
In any case you probably need to upgrade the groundign system.
My description of # 3 may not have been entirely clear. There is only one circuit breaker for the two sets of wires, and only one black wire is connected to that CB. As it stands, the circuit breaker feeds the black/hot in 'A', the white wire of 'A' (which is NOT connected to the neutral bar), is then TERMINATED by being wire nutted to the black wire of 'B' (which is NOT connected to anything else) , then finally the white of 'B' is connected to the neutral bar.
Clear as mud? :-)
Thanks.
Thon
OK, I have it now. But I had to go back and read you orginal message also.
It is "simple". Cable A is wired in series with cable B.
WHY is the question.
The only thing that makes any sense is that cable A is a switch leg and at the far end is a switch used to turn on and off what is on cable B.
This is common wiring. But it IS NOT COMMON TO DO THAT IN THE MAIN PANNEL. Not only that, but it controls everything in on cable B, not just a single light.
<The only thing that makes any sense is that cable A is a switch leg and at the far end is a switch used to turn on and off what is on cable B.>
Indeed it is. With all other circuits at least temporarily hooked up, the only one that didn't work was the cellar light. The panel is on the stairs between the light and the switch. Thanks!
2. Still not sure what to do about splicing to extend a couple of the circuits enough to reach new breakers? Would greatly appreciate help on the 'correct' place/manner to do this.
3. The 70A CB outside is the main disconnect for the house, and has a smallish (presumably) copper wire running from the box into the ground. There is no ground wire from that box to the service panel inside. Sounds like I need to investigate what that ground wire is going to (if anything, other than ground) :-) , and also run a ground wire from the outside disconnnect box to the inside service panel?
Thanks again for the help!
Thon
"ndeed it is. With all other circuits at least temporarily hooked up, the only one that didn't work was the cellar light. The panel is on the stairs between the light and the switch. Thanks!"
What that is doing is limited that whole circuit a couple of cellar lights.
I pull out both A & B and run a new circuit to some convenant location for a junction box, but be just next to the CB pannel. From there you can connect cellar lights and switch, but also have unswitched power for other applications.
"2. Still not sure what to do about splicing to extend a couple of the circuits enough to reach new breakers? Would greatly appreciate help on the 'correct' place/manner to do this."
National Code allows it. But if this is an job requiring inspection then I would check with the inspectors first. That is one of the areas that local codes or "opinons" often override.
"3. The 70A CB outside is the main disconnect for the house, and has a smallish (presumably) copper wire running from the box into the ground. There is no ground wire from that box to the service panel inside. Sounds like I need to investigate what that ground wire is going to (if anything, other than ground) :-) , and also run a ground wire from the outside disconnnect box to the inside service panel?"
That makes this suspect as I don't think tht 70 amps was ever a standard service size. 80 was, then 100, 150, and 200.
Also if you do anything on the service side and even if you don't the ground should probably upgraded. Typically that require either 2 driven ground electrode or one and connections to an appropriate metal water pipe. But this is a detailed area and along with service enterance requirements there are lots of local variations.
I would seriously look at getting a pro to upgrade the whole service entrance, grounding, and main disconnect to at least 100 amp service.
Then you can do the new interior "sub-pannel".
<I pull out both A & B and run a new circuit to some convenant location for a junction box, but be just next to the CB pannel. From there you can connect cellar lights and switch, but also have unswitched power for other applications. >
We're talking a cellar just large enough for a furnace, hot water heater and a water softener. :-) There is a receptacle down there on another circuit so I imagine I'll leave the lights as is, and prominently label the wiring, as long as it's not particularly 'wrong' to do so.
2. No inspectors needed way out here, which is one reason I wanted to run these questions by some pros.
3. The outside breaker box (just below the meter) has a 70A breaker which feeds the inside service panel/all the house circuits. It also has a 30A breaker which feeds outbuildings and the well, and another 30A breaker which feeds an in the house 220 receptacle (used to be a large kiln there). The electric co. came out last week and will be happy to disconnect me and help put up conduit and service head to a new meter, if /when I upgrade that OLD disconnect. Pipe from the well is plastic so if I don't find a copper rod at the end of the service entrance ground wire, looks like I'll be buying one.
Thanks again.
Thon