All,
I had a customer ask me today if I could turn the service panel, which is facing into a room approx. 15 x 10 & mounted beneath an unfinished stairwell, around and have it face into the stairwell. My logical reaction says, “No”. But I want to know if this allowed in the code?
Thanks in advance,
dlb
.
Smart construction decisions and material choices can significantly improve occupant safety and survival in the event of a fire in the home.
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.
Start Free Trial NowGet instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.
Start Free Trial Now
Replies
Hi Dale -
Maybe it's the Sunday night mind-freeze, but I can't quite picture what yer describing here. When the panel gets turned around, it's going to be under some open stairs and you'll stand under these stairs on a flat floor to get at it? Or would you be standing on some steps?
The NEC provides clearance requirments: 30" wide space including the panel width; 36" deep in front of the panel; 6-1/2' of headroom unless an upgrade in an existing dwelling 200a or less.
Also the first line of the section (110-16) generalizes that access and working space be provided and maintained so as "to permit ready and safe operation and maintenance of such equipment".
Dunno, hope this helps.....................................Ed
Ed,
Thanks for the reply. That was just what I was looking for. A point of clarification:
if the panel was turned around you would be beneath the steps working in a space approx. 35" wide w/ less than 12" of headroom.
Thanks again!
dlb
.
"Also the first line of the section (110-16) generalizes that access and working space be provided and maintained so as "to permit ready and safe operation and maintenance of such equipment"."
The space sounds OK from your description, but I'd recommend a quick call to the local electrical inspector just to make sure...general statements in the Code may be interpreted differently from one inspector to the next. For instance, an inspector could have the opinion that the area underneath the stairs doesn't permit ready and safe operation (as in could you get out of there quickly if sparks started flying.)
I agree with Stuart, and this whole "while it is energized" became an issue as I was coming up short 3" (actually 4" after sheetrock) with this 36" space in my subpanel rough. The shortcoming in the code is that they don't bloody spec out a minimum. Kinda gives a lot of leeway to an inspector, but should also give the equal to the owner/tradesman.
When you think about, there is absolutely no reason to have 36" in front of a panel, unless, as my inspector via his superior (who I get on well with) said, "Well, we have to accomodate that 300lb electrician who may service the subpanel."
Could anyone here (preferrably a 300lb electrician) post here if they have a minimum in which they need to work? I mean that seems to be the barometer in my City.
Since when does the NEC "not spec out a minimum" for clearance in front of an electrical panel? Last I checked, it specifically stated 36" in front of the panel, as someone else stated earlier.
Bob
Bob, here's the code:
(A) Working Space. Working space for equipment operating at 600 volts, nominal, or less to ground and likely to require examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance while energized shall comply with the dimensions of 110.26(A)(1), (2), and (3) or as required or permitted elsewhere in this Code.
At least in my subpanel and small issue with my City, I do not plan to work on my subpanel while energized. There are no life-support systems or other apparatus that would require my subpanel to be energized all the time. Should I work on my subpanel, I go to the main service and turn the whole shabang off. Now if we're talking about the main panel, well, I guess it is always energized in that electricity is hooked up to it (energized) via the electrical company. In the latter case, yeah, the code would apply.
And after re-reading the above thread, I guess the minimum as set up by Code does apply in Dale's case since it is the main panel.
The 36" clearance is a safety issue, whether you are a 300 lb. electrician or a skinny 155 lb. (me). Whether the panel is energized or not. At some point it will be energized. Bad stuff can happen, especially when less than qualified people have been working in a panel. I have seen it happen even with journeyman electricians. Catastrophic failure of a breaker can blow the door off of a panel box. Most electricians are taught to stand to one side when enrgizing any circuite for this very reason. The second reason is to prohibit placing your stuff in front of the panel and providing additional fuel for any electrical fire that may start there.
Dave
I second you on that Dave...if you do enough electrical work then you see it all: arcing, sparking breakers and wires; a slip of the screwdriver shorting to ground and WHERE YA GONNA JUMP if you don't have good working space?
Anyone who thinks that panels are never worked on while energized doesn't have the big picture. For example, many troubleshooting problems have to be done while a panel is energized and current is flowing.
Ed
Can't really disagree with anything in the last two posts, but it seems to me that any qualified person would shut off power to a subpanel (main or service panel a different story).
Would be interested to understand the circumstances where this would be appropriate:
"For example, many troubleshooting problems have to be done while a panel is energized and current is flowing."
I am under the impression that there is a heck of a lot of other equipment out there that facilitates working on a non-energized panel and gets any results of a panel that has to be, for some reason, see above, needs to be energized to be serviced.
About 3 months ago I had a journeyman electrician wireing relays in for heat panels in a comercial biulding. He turned off the circuits he was working on and wired the ralays. He misread one of the wire numbers and connected two hot feeds to the same relay. He energized the circuites and closed up the distribution panel and the relay cabinet box as well as the electrical closet doors. He then went arpund the office and set the t-stat up to bring the heat panels on. He was going back to the closet to take amp reading on each circuit when his mistake caught up with him. The relay and breaker both blew at the same time. The force was great enough to blow the panel, cabinet, and closet doors open. Scared a few more years of experience into him real quick. Knowone was hurt and the damage was limited to replacing four or five relays, the breaker, and a couple of buss fuses in the switch gear room.
Granted this was commercial work, but single phase 277v is not a lot different than 240v in a residential panel. He followed his safety training and an injury was avoided. Most home owners making the same mistake he made would have been standing in front of the panels when they blew. With luck the breakers will trip immediately and not blow up. That is what they are designed to do, but there is always that small % that will fail with catasthropic results.
The clearance distances listed in the NEC take on a whole new meaning when you see stuff like this happen.
Dave
(A) Working Space. Working space for equipment operating at 600 volts, nominal, or less to ground and likely to require examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance while energized shall comply with the dimensions of 110.26(A)(1), (2), and (3) or as required or permitted elsewhere in this Code.
I do not plan to work on my subpanel while energized.
The above referenced code includes the times you just need to reset a breaker.
What you are saying is that when you "blow" a breqaker in the subpanel, you will go to the main and deenergize the sub. Go back to the sub and reset the blown breaker, go BACK to the main, reenergize the sub, GO BACK AGAIN to the sub (or the location of the fault) and see if the breaker blew again... oops gotta go back to the main and deenergize the sub before ya open it up to look at the suspect breaker. WHOooo.
Now you have to insure that everybody who may open that subpanel cover in the next 100 to 200 years does the same thing.
Be a devils advocate
SamT
"Law reflects, but in no sense determines the moral worth of a society.... The better the society, the less law there will be. In Heaven, there will be no law, and the lion will lie down with the lamb.... The worse the society, the more law there will be. In Hell, there will be nothing but law, and due process will be meticulously observed."
Grant Gilmore, The Ages of American Law (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1977), pp. 110-111.From 32866.117
Sam, fair enough; and I need 36" to do the scenario you described?????????????
I still find nothing in the NEC about minimum clearance; non-energized/live--why do they have that ambiguity as it appears???????? I'm not so wiley to suggest that maybe the NEC needs to upgrade their respective spec's in that regard, but...it sure seems like the thing to do. Am I really really stretching out on a limb here?
Maybe the NEC keeps an open mind in the form ambiguity?
Wiley, the code at 36" is the minimum, HOWEVER, talk to the inspector nicely as if you were looking for help and I bet he would allow you to get away with 33". If he doesn't, you just tell the HO that it can't be done, not your fault.
the NEC code is really easy to interpret if you first assume worst possible scenario and think absolutely safe. This is not a bad way to see it if you think about how many idiot HO's are out there and what they may do when we are gone.
I once saw a panel in a garage with the inner safety cover gone and a can of WD40 stuffed in amongst the wiring along with some hand tools.
You just can't tell what is going to happen when you are not around, but you may be liable for preventing some idiot from himself 9 years, 11 months, and 29 days later.
SamT
"Law reflects, but in no sense determines the moral worth of a society.... The better the society, the less law there will be. In Heaven, there will be no law, and the lion will lie down with the lamb.... The worse the society, the more law there will be. In Hell, there will be nothing but law, and due process will be meticulously observed."
Grant Gilmore, The Ages of American Law (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1977), pp. 110-111.From 32866.117
When you think about, there is absolutely no reason to have 36" in front of a panel,
I don't have to think about it, I open the things everyday just to check them; 36" is pretty darn limited just for safely and effectively looking in 'em; do you really want to pizz off an electrician who you're asking to work in your panel?
I'd rather pizz off my proctologist!
Let me make a suggestion: spec out what you think is an appropriate minimum, give your self that much space in front of, say, a sheet of plywood on a wall, and then accurately drive a half dozen drywall screws by hand into specific spots. Then take a marker and draw a neat schematic of, say, a small, simple maze.
Then reconsider if you would feel comfortable working at a live panel within your minimum clearance, much less 36".
_______________________
10 .... I have laid the foundation like an expert builder. Now others are building on it. But whoever is building on this foundation must be very careful.
11 For no one can lay any other foundation than the one we already have--Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 3:10-11
Then reconsider if you would feel comfortable working at a live panel within your minimum clearance, much less 36".
Bob, my point above was that I would not be working on a live or energized panel i.e. subpanel. And my issue was with about 33". Plus, again in my case, there was about five feet just to one side, the corner turned further into the pantry.
Hi Wiley -
We work on live panels every day. It's the way it is.
For example, the most common complaint: why is this breaker tripping? Open the panel, clip on an ammeter, check the load. Check for voltage drop when there is a load on it.
Flickering lights: same thing. Check the voltage under load, check the voltage between the two hot legs. Jiggle the wire under the breaker or put your ear close to it to listen for arcing (I kid you not).
Loose neutral behavior, one leg blown, 3-phase weirdnesses: pop the meter cover, check it out, pop the main disconnect cover, check it out, pop panel covers, check it out until you find the source problem.
When the problem has been diagnosed, THEN you face the problem of whether or not it is convenient to de-energize the panel. For example, working in a non-residential environment during business hours can make it extremely inconvenient . Office, school, restaurant, etc. You gonna turn off an entire kitchen so you can install a 120v20a circuit to a small microwave? No. You gonna arrange to come back after hours, screw up an evening or a weekend to do an hours' work that you know you could easily do with the panel energized? No. You gonna tell an office manager that his 15 workstations have to be shut down for 20 minutes and their phones won't work so you can replace a bad breaker to an air-conditioner? No.
Hope this helps.............Ed
Mr. Ed,
You said, "you face the problem of whether or not it is convenient to de-energize the panel." [Emphasis added.]
Some companies have a strict "No working on hot panels rule." This makes sense. If the customer really wants that A/C or whatever working again, they can tolerate a 20 minute interuption. As for the computers, they can be shut off if you tell them in advance. The pretty receptionists will appreciate the break.
It's very nice to risk your skin, eyes, etc. to avoid an inconvenience and not much appreciated. When a wire flips around unexpectedly or your utility knife contacts two phases simultaneously, things can happen. For instance, your utility knife might get damaged. Travis spent a couple of months in the hospital working on a hot panel. And his utility knife was eveidently destroyed altho I haven't seen it.
Do you wear personal protective gear, [flash protection] goggles, face shield, rubber gloves, fire-proof shirt, etc. when you're doing this kind of work. Would Mother OSHA approve?
~Peter View Image