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I am a ‘freelance’ carpenter/plumber etc in the SC bay area. I have three years experience in the construction industry (self-employed /crew)as well as a master’s degree in economics. Does anybody know the market rate for handymen’ in the SC bay area? I charge $20 to $25 an hour(depending on the hood’), but a contractor friend tells me that this is too cheap and may deflate the prevailing wage. Also what is the protocol for charging a client for a rented tool? For example, I rented a fancy chop saw for a finish job and charged the client exactly what it cost me to rent the saw. No profit, etc.?
Taler
P.. This site is a fantastic resource!
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Hi Tyler,
I'm slumming from the furniture forum….
I can't speak to the market rate for "handyman" in the SF Bay area - I'm in Brooklyn. In general though, if you are turning away work because you're too busy, raise your prices. If you can't get work, lower them. That's the market rate.
In terms of your question about charging for tool rental: who pays for your time to go pick the tool up, and the time to make the phone call to find it, and the phone call itself, and the gas and mileage for your truck to pick it up. Are you getting your hourly rate for that time? Of not, someone has to pay for that time and if it's not your client than it's got to be you. All working hours have to be billable in some manner. You want to charge what it costs you to get the tool plus a profit - so eventually you can buy your own tool. That means ALL the costs of rental.
Hope this helps,
Kim Carleton Graves
Carleton Woodworking
*Tyler, your overhead costs are probably at least $10 per hour. You should be charging a minimum of $35 per hour. You should also mark up ALL costs including that chop saw rental cost.You really need to buy the book a book authored by Linda Case and Victoria Downing. It contains most of what you need to learn, and fast. I'll locate their site and email it to you.You should also consider using the "Proof" system for calculating your markup. It think there is a thread here about the system. Whoops, found the book. It's entitled: "Mastering the bsuiness of Remodeling" - $35.00. The authors site is http://www.RemodelersAdvantage.com. I'd read chapter 5, first - "Planning for Profit."Also, scroll down here and read everything regarding overhead, profit and marketing.
*One more thing I forgot to mention. Do not use the term "Handyman". If you do, your clients will expect "handyman" pricing. They will also often expect to get "handyman" workmanship. If in fact you do professonal work, consider having your cards read - "Professional Execution of Small Projects" - as mind does. My jobs are generally under $5000, and most under $1000. I make a point of reading that part to new clients so they can expect and get excellent work - and prices justified by my services.
*Sonny,Have you ever joined or purchased other materials from remodelersAdvantage.com etc?
*Raymond, where have you been this last year? I bought a couple of books from them last year. I also met Ms. Downing and Linda called me a couple of years ago for permission to quote me in the book I suggested. I 'm not a member of Remodelers Advantage though.
*That's a big help. Thanks a bunch. I'll get that book. I like the tip about not using the term "handyman." I do avoid using it when dealing with clients. The hardest thing for me is sitting down at the kitchen table, summing the bill and giving it to the client at the end of the job. Sometimes things take a bit longer than I estimated and nobody likes to see a big bill. But my work speaks for itself and the only problem seems to be the one I have with myself. One technique I have found useful is always summing the bill a bit generous for my time and then giving the client a "discount" which is congruent with the true price of my labor. Is this ethical? Retail stores do this all the time, but for craftsmen? What do you think? ..Also anyone find that elderly people can be the most difficult clients to work for? They seem to be fussing about money the time and I usually end up eating my profit to keep them happy.
*I run a Company that does small jobs. In metro Chicago we get 50 to 60 hour and I am thinking of raising the rates. Think about pricing a job, not your hours, the rates you can realize are oftgen much higher but you assume the risk. yes, older clients are harder to work for (it is the "I remember when this cost only $2.47) issue as well as the prevalence of a fixed income. But why are you trying to appease a client who is not profitable? SO they can refer you to other non profitable customers?Jim
*I think that most of us try to give older folks a break on price because we see our own parents or grandparents in their situation and of course we want to help them out. We have a business that is mostly large custom homes and we take on handyman type repairs only for people we know and only when we have time for it. We have the luxury of giving away some of this work to our older friends and are happy to do so. That said, most older people are happy to pay for an honest and competent tradesman. They are often at the mercy of a world that is bewildering and even threatening and appreciate a friend more than you can know. I also know that some of my slowest to collect bills are from the richest customers whereas a couple of little old ladies are at the door counting out creased bills to pay for the bill as I put on the finishing touches.
*No discounts---EVER.It is not your responsibility to subsidize someone elses lifestyle. It does not matter if the customer is young,old,an old classmate,a buddy from a bowling team 5 years ago ---whatever. No discounts.Full price or more than full price.when customers ask for a discount they are essentially asking you to shortchange YOUR family.they are asking YOU to reduce your grocery expenses,shortchange your childrens education,lower your retirement lifestyle,and deny your wife the baubles she so definitely deserves.(one of my most memorable experiences was standing in a prospects driveway as he asked for a senior citezen discount. then I noticed the 2 brand new foreign cars inside his garage)I recommend spending your working hours trying to maximize and increase your earnings and rates rather than discount them.If you choose to spend your evenings and weekends doing volunteer work through a church or charitable organization thats great. Keep it seperate from your economic life.notice that utilities,oil companies,the post office,grocery stores,clothing stores,car dealers,etc. are not expected to discount their goods,but do encourage volunteerism and charity work.Here is one last hint----customers often question what they percieve to be high labor rates,but they never question the validity of a $50 service call plus $XX/hour laborgood Luck all,Stephen
*Again, thanks for the advice. I hear the comment on rich people being some of the cheapest people to work for. I put in a tile countertop for a divorcee who didn't have job, owned a three bedroom house and two SUV's. She tried to cut corners for everything, materials, labor even the food she had given me. When it came time to pay, she told me how hard it is and that she has to go into her retirement to pay for the work, and if she could have a break on the job. This p.o.'d me a bit and I told her that she was much better off than most people, including myself and that she has no reason to fret. She paid full price...I think the fact that craftsmen work in people's homes affects the social dynamic of the business. Most contractors operate out of their homes or trucks and do not have a retail office. When you enter somebody's house it isn't a place of business for them, but it is for ourselves. Therefore it may not feel like a true business relationship to them and so they may fret harder about paying? I guess it comes down to what most of you said, don't screw yourself to make cheap customers happy so they refer you to more cheap customers. Tyler
*Tyler,I've found it much more comfortable to give them a healthy estimate up front if at all possible. If I estimate at $50/hr then I usually have better success at hitting the $35/hr goal.... If there's going to be gagging and retching or tears and lamentations I would rather find out before the work was done than after.
*6 months ago I did a small job for a client. Two small custom doors this is not my usual work so I bid it at $45 hr then added some more for worry room at the end of the job the Installation went rely well 2HR instead of 5Hr. When the owner gave me the last $500 I gave her $100 right back and said that the Istalation went better than expected. two days later a friend of hers called with a $3000 job her friends father called with a $15000 job and the original client asked for two book cases for her kids $1000. not bad for a $100.
*I'm sorry Tyler, but a masters degree in what?...b ECONOMICS!Where is the S C Bay Area?All right, born and raised, San Francisco.Always be San Francisco Bay Area, all the way down to Gilroy. Which is where the S.F.Giants fan base extends.Tyler, I completed ten years as a union carpenter at the time I ventured on my own, and I was charging $25.00/hr when I started. Two reasons, to build a little confidence (didn't take long to jack that number up) and as you are doing to find out what an appropriate number would be.Working for someone else this may be what to expect, now that you are the boss remember the risks assumed as well as overhead and the ability to reinvest into your company. You are now an ENTITY.Appropriate... remember your skill level and the type of work you are completing in comparison to work of larger scale. Apples to apples.One other reason my wage was lower than others was to break into the market, to quickly acquire a few jobs to create a reference base. I am fortunate to have a wife to provide a second income to keep my head above water in those trying times. My work is impeccable along with my customer service, the rest will hopefully fall in line. Consider the $100.00 investment described above. There are other ways of accomplishing this as well. My thing is, organization. I keep all my tools clean as if they just came off the retail shelf, therefore job site always clean, at the end of each day total wipe down so as not to inconvenience the client. Roll up cords and lock up if not tuck your tools into a corner for the next day.I can't tell you how often people have made the effort to stop in and comment on the clean organized job site, and it being one of the reasons I was selected. Impressions can be everything Skilled Craftsman Tyler.See ya.
*Hey Tyler,I apologize about the bold face economics remark.If you were to look into several of my quests for info. you would askb CARPENTER?Good luck with your ventures, and generate a good contract.Just one man's opinion.
*Mark, no worries about the economics remark. My question didn't refer to how to go about the business locally. As I learned my trade in Tahoe for a year(after the master's degree)at a seriously discounted wage, when I went solo in the bay area I needed to know what other guys are charging to maximize my revenues and not deflate the market wage. One thing my mentor taught me in Tahoe was "keep it clean." I take that to heart. When I roll up the place is usually cleaner then when I found it...As for being a carpenter, its a fun, honest and interesting job if you make it so. Take care.Tyler
*Tyler Palmer,You mentioned Tahoe. My son and I spent a few hours in Tahoe back in December.Stumbled across a park where my son spent an hour or so climbing on rocks along the shore and out into the lake.Not a cloud in the sky----one of those days best described as "brilliant".Really just drop-jaw,mind-numbingly spectacular.Thanks for reminding me!PS. The place was totally deserted---my son and I were the only ones there. From the parking and beach facilities I could see that it must be really crowded in the summer. I bet Kevin and I would have had a much different experience if we were there in JULY.Stephen
*Tyler,It's a great attitude.Life's what you make of it!I work as a general contractor, this trade can be awfully tough on an individual, the rewards however are golden.Crawling in, out, over, and under places makes me ask how much longer?Man I love to stand back and say, b "Look what I made!"And with a digital camera, I can force everyone into the living room and say look what I made. No more chartered buses.Okay the question.I am fortunate to be able to charge $65.00/ hour for my services. I have recently reduced my wage to $50.00 in light of virtually completing my tasks as the general for the client I am employed. It is a T & M project with many details to be worked out to complete. I am very grateful to this individual for the opportunity to work on such a mind boggling project which was quite undefined, however with his patience and cooperation throughout. He is an amazing individual I am proud and honored to work for.What was your question? Excuse my digression.I evaluate the task before me and the effort and time to accomplish, and will usually bill myself out from $50.00 to $65.00 an hour or what the market will bare at the given time.My Mom, is billed accordingly as well, depending on the task, the roast beef dinner, with the works, stuffed flank steak, or the chicken cacciatore is always a winner.
*Yes Tahoe is a splendid place to be at any time of the year...The weekends are becoming a serious drag with traffic and crowds. However, during the week, even in July it is fantastic. I learned this trade out under those crystal blue skies, smelling the pine trees and the sawdust. Finishing work at 4:00pm and then going on a hike or run. In the winter we raced against a fierce storm to get 3/4" plywood onto a roof. Great fun. My mentor was a serious anal retentive and at the time it bugged me but in retrospect he was a hell of a craftsman, and an even better teacher. Things had to be within a sixteenth for rough and even closer for finish work but it paid off. I learned more in that year as to how to be a professional than I did at eight years of school...As to the market wage of $65.00 an hour, you are lucky to get that much. It feels funny to me. I installed four ceiling fans last week, had to make new holes, put in junction boxes and run new romex. I charge $30 an hour, but I should have charged more. Crawling around in insulation in an attic wearing a respirator all day sucks. I don't know. I'm young and starting out. Confidence begets higher wages I suppose.
*Stephen,How about a lesson in selling? Does the term SALE mean anything to you? Boo bus America loves a sale. Do you really think that carpet is 70% off? Of course not. It's the illusion. It's not what it costs, it's what it sells for.Be well. Visit Wall Mart.
*Jack, I am not sure I catch your drift. I have been on a bit of a vacation lately and this is my first time back here for a while----did I miss something in my abscence?what is Boo bus America?I don't know anything about carpeting as my home has much loved( and much abused) hardwood floors.Wal Mart is not now and never will be a viable role model for me. My company could never handle the volume that a Wal mart type operation would need.I do know that Wal Mart has put a lot of small mom and pop stores out of business who tried to compete with Walmart on price.A few mom and pop stores have done well against Walmart by concentrating on OTHER things Wal Mart can't provide.Low price,discounts,high volume etc, are simply not a productive tactic for little guys. I will give you an idea Of a retailer who has a business idea that I am interested in though.The West Point Market located in obscure Akron, Ohio.This is a grocery store with only one location that has flourished in a industry now dominated by huge superstore chains.The superstores have essentially put most little guys out of the grocery business and are now battling with even the K marts of the world( and for all I know Wal Mart. does Walmart sell groceries? I wouldn't know,I don't think I have ever been in one,although I have been to Wall Drug South Dakota)so how does the West Point Market do so well.It has recieved industry awards coast to coast.It's reasonable parking lot is always well filled. Its prices are almost astronomical compared to a superstore chain.It weighs each brownie before selling them (they are worth it). Cambells chicken noodle soup may be $1 a can compared to 70 cents at a chain ,but west point market customers don't care because they are in store to buy $3 a can gourmet chicken soup that a chain would never carry.Do you feel lucky if your local chain stocks Guinness? WPM stocks maybe8-12 different Stouts besides Guinness.And moves them.WPM is famous nation wide in the industry for its Wine department. Same thing with cheeses. It's fantastic bakery will put fat on your hips just carrying a bag or a box up to the check out.The owner still can be found bagging groceries and the customers get all warm and tingly when the owner waits on them personally and calls them by name. the bag boys will actually help you out to your car with your purchases.Even the bags are something of a specialty---virtually un-tearable and they have handles!People wait in line and CHEERFULLY pay top dollar to shop at WPM. Guess what----If you handle things right SALES and DISCOUNTS are irrelevant.I don't think it is reasonable for a small business like mine(1-4 workers) to try to adopt Walmart tactics.But WPM has a thing or to we could adopt.BTW,if you get a chance attend a sales seminar put on by Elk shingles. they will clearly show you something I already knew---- cutting price by as little as 5% can be counter productive,even suicidal in MY industry.Good luck All,stephen
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I am a 'freelance' carpenter/plumber etc in the SC bay area. I have three years experience in the construction industry (self-employed /crew)as well as a master's degree in economics. Does anybody know the market rate for handymen' in the SC bay area? I charge $20 to $25 an hour(depending on the hood'), but a contractor friend tells me that this is too cheap and may deflate the prevailing wage. Also what is the protocol for charging a client for a rented tool? For example, I rented a fancy chop saw for a finish job and charged the client exactly what it cost me to rent the saw. No profit, etc.?
Taler
P.. This site is a fantastic resource!