I understand that the shaper is the preferred method over the router in certain production work.
I have been unable to understand exactly why the shaper is so much better than the router.
As the owner of four routers and zero shapers, I am reluctant to consider a shaper, along with the custom cutters and whatever else is involved.
Why exactly is a shaper better than a router?
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Replies
I don't own one either, but my understanding is that shapers as a general matter, and of course subject to exceptions, have the following advantages:
1. Can safely run much larger bits;
2. Usually have better speed control;
3. Usually have better (flatter) tables of cast iron;
4. Usually have better fences;
5. Have much more vertical adjustability.
Of those 5 items, probably only #1 is going to be almost universally true. The other items can either be overcome by a particular router or a better table set up for your router.
I don't own a shaper either Sas, but have used them and my overall sense is: much more powerful and able to spin a much larger cutter. Bigger work surface (assuming you are comparing them to a router table) and generally better guards as they are (at least on the one I used) integral rather than "one size fits all" from the router table manufacturer.
Think of the difference between a handheld and a shop machine, like a 3-1/2" hand held planer vs a 15" 220V shop planer
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Better shapers are also reversable, a handy feature with some operations.
I didn't know that. When would you want to reverse the rotation?
Reversing the rotation allows you to flip he cutters over. this can be handy for many setups. It also allows you to run flush cutting bits either direction to avoid tearout.
"When would you want to reverse the cutter?"
When you cut too much off.
You put the machine in reverse and it puts the chips back on. You have to feed it from the other end and run your chip collecting vacuum in reverse also.
~Peter
Ask, and you get an answer!
With a shaper you get a larger cutter diameter, so all other things being equal, for a given pattern and number of cuts per inch, you get a smoother cut. Getting all other things to be equal can be challenging. My shaper was a Rockwell with interchangeable spindles, and I eventually had a solid 3/4" spindle made to minimize runout. That made a huge improvement, as did adding a power feeder and of course having good dust collection. Ease of raising and lowering the cutter precisely, and the split adjustable fence made setups fast and repeatable. For things like large door sticking there is no comparison to using a router, and for running material all day long it's just a lot easier. Also, a lot of the cutters are modular, so stacking them as needed with shims between allows a lot of flexibility.
Modern routers are very good, as are router bits. You can do great things with them. The newer generation of router table stuff is very nice also. I would only get another shaper if I were doing a lot of production work.
But again, a better shaper also has the advantage of a tilting shaft, increasing the cutter's usability considerably.
And you are very correct that , you gotta really use it to justify the cost.
Check out the Martin shapers... careful you don't drool on the keyboard or demonstrate any other inappropriate anatomical phenomena.
http://www.muellerco.com/mueller_industrial_equipment_shapers.asp
Yeah..drool. OMG I'd love any of them.
I ran SCMS in guitar work, wait, was that it? Or SMCS..I dunno anymore..but I had two tilting reversable arbors and a slide table...and the power feed...I got spoiled.
Maybe SCMI?
Closest I got to big-time machinery in my own shop was when I looked into buying an Altendorf sliding table saw. IIRC it was about $20K. Around the same time I discovered a couple of big shops with beam saws that would cut and deliver parts for me if I sent them a fax.
Man, I wish I had a shaper. I've came close to pulling the trigger a few times several years ago, but instead ended up with a shop full of routers.Good news? Leaving bits in the collets for certain set ups. Two always set up for the dovetail jig, two more for cope and stick, another for a raised panel bit. Yet another with the profile du jour.And they're portable.I still have my eyes out for a shaper, but doubt if I'll ever get one.
If you find yourself running cartloads of lumber you can justify a shaper. For the average person doing weekend projects, I doubt it. Of course, it's always worth checking to see who in your area already has one. There's a place near me with a big shaper and more cutters than a high school in late May. They run stuff for me periodically and it's very, very affordable once you take into account buying the tools, maintaining them, providing real estate with light and heat, and actually standing there feeding the beast with wood.
When I got mine I had to go thru it to make it work right. The Rockwell/Delta interchangeable spindle deal is iffy, IMO, and you may have a lot of runout if you buy that model. Not sure if the Powermatic is the same. Then, you may need 3-phase or a converter. It's kinda fun, though... put on a huge cutter and stand there feeling the wind blow.
David,
You can buy a Grizzly as low as $515.00 or their contractor grade for $315.00 That's router prices man..
Mongo,
Look at Grizzly .com My shaper cost me $850 and included the moble base.
They are really solid basic shapers and the price is affordable for a cheapskate like me..
I own a whole shop of Grizzly tools and they've been supurb! Tablesaw, shaper, air cleaner , Sawdust collector, 20"planner, 8" jointer, 14 inch bandsaw.
I've run over 40,000 bd.ft. of hardwood thru them and in 5 years I have broken 1 fan belt that I was able to replace in a few minutes from a local auto parts store.
If you look in the archieves you'll see the kind of work I have the shaper do.. lot of really big heavy oak timbers, flooring etc.. nothing easy and it has yet to need anything!
I use it right as it came out of the box!
Grizzly's cutters are great too. Very affordable and yet I was able to do over a 1000 sq. ft. of hardwood flooring in a single pass and the cutter is still nice and sharp. Clean edges without fuzz or burns..
sphere,
The currant Grizzly catalog has a 2 hp shaper for $795, I bought my three hp grizzly for $850 and it came with a free moble base. A shaper is one of those tools that once you have one you can do things with it that simply cannot be done with a router.
You are preachin to the choir..I LOVE shapers.
Sorry Sphere,
I intended it for the OP
Hmm, now, if the question was "shaper or a moulder?" that'd be a bit more sticky, wouldn't it?Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Sticky..LOL.
In my world there is only one option, Wienig 4 head. I went to the schooling and knife grinding classes in an earlier time, and that machine is awesome.
I am certain there is better , new improved, cnc's out there now, but at the time, it was the bee's knees.
I am certain there is better
Yeah, but, you were already a "multi axis" convert. <g>
Only thing the CNCs have is indexing with stacked-head cutters. If you're not using a moulder big enough for stacked cutters, then CNC doesn't help so very much. The tool-changers, I'm still of two minds about. For about the same cost as a moulder with tool changers you can get a decent multi-point machine that's a lot easier to run the atypical pieces that it will be good "at."
But, I'll admit to having a bit of an industrial bias, where mouldings come out of the raw materials rough cutting process, and a production machine in the line makes sense.
CNC with multiple stacked head cutters is cool to watch run well, though. Controler cuse the operator to load nn of X x Y of spieces in the feeder. After that, you hit start, and make sure the sticks go in right. Out the other end comes near-finished moulding. (Even spiffier is when the code in the Fanuc, or whatever, actually prompts to load a throw-away scrap that gets the start-of-run chattermarks in it, and not the "good" stock . . . )Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Yeah, the feeder stock was some good kindling//...our CNC was bare bones, a 7.5 HP Perske head and a Porter Cable 3 hp follower..The Perske would auger out the Strat bodies, Tele bodies, and the PC would follow up and drill the holes and light cavities,,I mean light as in not loading the cutter heavily.
I ran ran 1/2 solid carbide spiral in the 7.5 HP and 1/4" sol. carb. in the PC. The beam on the table was about 10 ft and the axis rail was 40'' or so..I chunked up stock on a Carter vacuum pod table..pretty cool.
our CNC was bare bones
Naw, for "bare bones," Shane, two doors down has most beat, ond solid, too. He bought a motor assembly, then had aframe built for it. Then he got a bunch of step motors. He's cobbled together a g-code controller, too. It has a look of "junk yard wars" about it, but it will whittle a door like no body's bizness <g>.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I miss that show (s)..wheel chair motors and actuators..damm I coulda been...
I dunno if the programming is the same anymore, but I'd trace a tool path with a cross hair puck and digitize the params. It got dicey on some of the curves that had less than a 19 mm rad. I'd have to plot a new swath tangent in DOS, and break it up with out the sector jumps.
I see a lot of stuff now have "smoothing"...damm..we did it the hard way..LOL ( Like walking to school up hill in the snow, both ways).
I'll stick with copper roofing..man we are having some fun now, curves and stuff...
I dunno if the programming is the same anymore
Oh, it's much different now, even the stuff you can download on the net (the $10,000 per seat CAM stuff is sometime not so much better, either).
Now, you "build" the part you want as a 3D ACAD model. Save the file as a dxf. The CAM software "reads" the dxf, and offers you up graphics to assign things, like the x/y/z orientation. Then geometry changes are highlighted versus a list of tools; or you assign tools to the geometry--both methods get used.
What the maxi-dollar CAM stuff will do, though, is "know" what tools you have indicated are available versus the geometry desired.
So, let's say you want to whittle a bevel-edged square raised panel dooe out of a single MDF blank. The 5/8" 90º bit will leave a raidus in the inside corners, right? Ah, but if the CAM s/w "knows" that you also have 0.25 45º and 5mm 60º bits in the tool changer, it will add "passes" in the corners to take as much of the radius "out" (using a climbing, diagonal, cut) as the bits permit. The pricier s/w also won't let you run that skinny 5mm bit at 3200 ips into the MDF, either.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I just pucked a blue print and digitized the x/y axis with an allowance for the path. The Z axis was verticle, and set by zero off the table suction.
I also plotted the X/Y froma common corner, low left was my zero datum. I ran all the Co's from the common dress left, of 0/0/o.
Bit changing was never an option, I re-zeroed my Z often tho." I press my lips against her name"
Bit changing was never an option, I re-zeroed my Z often tho
That's a "then" versus "now" sort of distinction. The software Shane has "reads" parts to create G-code ready for a controller. All that you need to add to the G-code is any user comments or instructions (if your controller has a display for such things).
That, and one of the router heads Shane picked up as salvage already had a 10 bit changer on it.
Now, in use, the operator has to make a certain number of checks versus the blank, the tooling, etc. That's where the real 'money' in CNC work is, is in knowing where to prompt the user for things like "Check 2" carbide bevel cutter tooling dimensions." Not only does that give the operator something to do while a different cutter is running, it also lets the "precision" of the machine really work.
At my old cabinet perdition, they ran so much mdf, and at such high feed speeds, that it was cheaper to get diamond tooling than carbide tooling (lasted 5x versus only costing 3x). They wouldn't have known that, had we not established a tool checking query in the s/w process.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
As I've spent the past two hours trying to figure out how to chuck my 3-1/2" raised panel bit into my dremel tool, all while reading the discourse of your last few posts, I suddenly realized that I may be using the wrong bit on the wrong tool.Oops. Just got it. It seems to be holding just fine with the duct tape.Back to work!
3-1/2" raised panel bit into my dremel tool,
Ah, well, are your using the 5 or the 7.5 HP Dremel <G>?
Thought Shane was using starter motors for a while, until I saw the scmi data plate.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Duane
The shop that I worked at when I moved to Texas had a 4 head Wienig but since I came back they have added a 6 head Wienig, a CNC and some other cool tools.
I think all that new stuff is because I make them so much money! <G>
Doug
I have both and use both regularly.
Shapers cant spin as fast as routers and for a lot of things the router is my preference.
Some one on here mentiond that you cant do raised panel stick and cope doors with a router table, I think his words were "its like wrasslin with a lion" or something to that effect. To that guy I'd say his use of either is/was very limited. I've built whole kitchens using a router and router table to make all my doors. Raised the panels with a router bit, two passes, the final one was nothing more then a 1/32 clean up pass.
Shapers are great for bigger bits as others have suggested. You can add a feeder to a shaper - I suppose you could to a router table but I wouldnt! A feeder makes for safer work, also more consistant cutting. If you need 400 feet of chair rail I'd rather be feeding the wood into a feeder then pushing it through a router with a few feather boards.
If I had to make a few simple little round over pieces I'd rather set up the router table then the shaper.
Router bits are much cheaper then shaper cutters, and custom cutters for a router although available are not as common as custom cutters for your shaper.
I think both have there place and I wouldnt want to go without either.
Doug
Another difference that I didn't see mentioned is that the shaper has an induction motor while the router has a universal motor. The induction motor runs quitter and cooler which leads to it lasting longer and able to withstand production environments that the router wouldn't last in.
Just to add - you can get a collet for a shaper that will hold any of your router bits...
And be aware that router bits are meant to run at 20K, not the slower speed that a shaper can supply. This is a fallicy that unless the shaper has two speeds, or the cutter has a chip load engineered into it, it will chatter horribly or tear out wild grain.
I think Doug nailed the greatest advance, a power feeder is a good thing, and so is long runs vs. repeated change overs.
I have never had the same results of no "hiccup" in the feed speed, like a power feeder allows, every change of hand feed or a readjustment of a pusher, will, show.
Chip loading = heat dissapation=better cuts with out a doubt.
sphere,
For some reason I can do pretty flawless feeding and seldom does anything show.. I'd like a power feeder but I do just enough work that I can't justify it to myself yet.
Oh I know about the time I'd save setting all the anti kick back devices would be eliminated, but I just don't use it that heavily .
Maybe a spiral cutter at 20K, but a pannel-raiser runs under 6,000. Small-shop shapers have multiple speeds.
Router for cuts, groves, hinges,... shaper for cutting moldings, rails, stiles, baseboards, ...
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That's good to know. I had considered getting an inexpensive Grizzly shaper before I picked up my Ridgid router and Freud table. I didn't want to start over with a collection of cutters since I already have so much invested in router bits.
I just wonder if the Grizzly, which is I think in the $400 range, is enough of an improvement over a high quality router to justify the purchase.
Or do you have to get a more expensive shaper to actually realize most of the benefits that have been mentioned in this thread?
I don't know if the Grizzly is worth it - I borrow a friends shaper when I need one.
If it were me buying a shaper, I would get the biggest I could afford.Treat every person you meet like you will know them the rest of your life - you just might!
Brian,
My 3 hp Grizzly will single pass the most difficult profile in the hardest wood. Can't ask for more than that.. I paid $850 for it 5 years agoi and it hasn't need a bit of maintinance I use it just as it came out of the box.. The currant price on that one is $975.
I can't say enough good things about their cutters either.. priced much below the competition they do a fine job and really seem to hold their edge..
Sasquatch
I own three routers and a shaper..
For hand work you have to have a router but if you are going to make several pieces or do any sort of serious edge work you simply need a shaper..
Spinning those big cutters on a hand held router is like saying, hey hurt me now! Plus a router won't single pass many things while it's a piece of cake for a shaper..
I made 1000 bd.ft. of black walnut flooring on my shaper. The cuter still cuts razor clean edges and there isn't a sign of burning or fuzzyness etc. that indicates it's time to resharpen. I honestly expect to finish the rest of the 3000 bd.ft. I'll need on this same cutter.. a router will need to be resharpened every few hundred ft. Plus there is absolutely no way a router will one pass this big a cut. Not only do you double the time it takes to do the job but every time you make a pass you increase the chance for a screw up..
A router table is sort of like an expensive way to go cheap. No way does a router lift table work as safely and efficently as a shaper does..
I have two shapers. I make a lot of cabinet doors and its great for cope and stick. I can leave them both set up until the stile and rails are complete. then I switch the cutter head on the one with the stock feeder to make raised panels.
I can quickly make raised panels in any configuration you can dream up. thats something a cabinet door shop would charge me a fortune for.
If I had room in my shop I would buy a 3rd for the panel raising.
once you get a shaper you wont be using the router as much
The company I work for got the small Jet shaper last year and I used it quite a bit. I would definately recommend going with a bigger machine if you can. This one is so light that it tips over easily and the table is too small. The quality of the machine is good though.
woodguy,
Yeh, I had that same model for a few months, sold it and bought my 3 hp Grizzly.
You might look here:
http://www.owwm.com/
for big heavy shapers.
-- J.S.