Here’s a question for some of you rockers that have a lot more experience than myself:
What’s the best way to get good results at the butt joints of sheetrock? And a related question, why don’t manufacturers offer sheets that have a factory bevel to sheets on 3 or 4 sides, instead of just two?
As someone who does a lot of finish trim, I’m not a big fan of butt joints and “feathing it out” over two feet or more. The surface does, in fact, look great, but when I put a baseboard or a head casing across the butt joint, it teeter-totters and makes for a major pain in the you-know-what.
I’ve read articles about screwing the free end of the rock to some blocking that is set back from the common plane of the rest of the framing. In this way, the end of the rock gets “sucked in” when the screws are set, and a little valley is created. Does anyone actually do this in practice?
Ragnar
Replies
> I've read articles about screwing the free end of the rock to some blocking that is set back from the common plane of the rest of the framing.
Ive read the same articles and even seen it on one of the home improvement tv shows....never seen any crew use this in the feild. Good in theory but Im not convinced its "cost effective". Most drywall crews dont even put in a nailer when necessary.
If your moulding is "rocking" at the joint, perhaps you are not feathering quite enough. As for why manufacturers dont taper butt ends...the sheets are produced in long lengths(dont remember how long) prior to being crosscut to size.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Yeah, I figured that sheetrock was produced in very long sizes at the factory, and then just chopped to length. However, it seems that some more bevelled edges could really be helpful.
As far as the teeter-totter effect, maybe I've just worked behind some very sloppy mud guys. Sometimes it seems as if the butt joint has been built up 3/16" or so. It's not as bad with a small molding profile, but when you're using 1x8s or significant cap trim on window heads, you just can't get them to follow the curve. I've even resorted to chipping out some of the mud at times.
Someone around here bevels the butts with a surform. As for shimming out on the studs next door to the butt joint, think about it first if you are going to have to scribe a countertop to it. Richard James Tolzman
This is going to be a crude description of how drywall is made. Basically the botttom layer of paper is layed down coming off a roll, then the gypson in a liquid form is put on top, the top layer of paper is then rolled over it then its baked in some ungodly hot oven to dry it.
At leasts thats the basics
Why not run the sheets vertically so all the butts are tapered and the square ends are at the floor or ceiling? Seems too obvious.
Although there are those who will install drywall as you described, it is not the "correct" process.J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Jaybird,
Why would installing sheets vertically along a wall be an "incorrect" process? Because the taped joints fall over a stud?
Ragnar, as was stated before, sheet rock can be ordered in what ever length you need up to 32'. If for example, I have two 13' 10" walls. If I order 14' rock this means that I cover the wall in two sheets. This means less screws and tape plus I have one horizontal seam in middle of the wall that is beveled on both edges. If I hang them vertical, I have to use 8's so now I have four vertical seams. Those seams need to fall on studs and those studs will have twice as many screws in them and twice as much time also.
You also have to watch for square much more carefully and more often than when you go horizontal. The horizontal method saves time and money all the way around and it produces a much flater wall.
Thanks for the clarification. Although it has been stated here that rock is cut into 32-footers at the factory, I didn't realize that you could actually purchase it that way. I've asked a number of lumber yards and drywall contractors about longer (and wider) lengths, and they've all told me that 12' was the longest available.
I'm going to be doing some work on my own house (imagine that, for a change!), and only have a few locations where I'll need something longer than 12' on the ceilings. There are some long walls (up to 23 feet), but since it's a remodel situation on the second floor, there's no way I'll ever be able to get a 23-footer into position. Therefore, I'm left with a few butt joints unless I go vertical on the walls.
Since you seem to have some experience with it, how much more have you paid for, say, a 14-footer? Rock is so cheap to begin with (relatively speaking), that even paying twice as much on a square foot basis would be fine with me for a few sheets, given the labor savings.
Thanks again for the help.
Ragnar
I know of 16 ft board max. The 32' I saw in the plant were cut down later in the process. They cut em at 32 to flip them over to proceed back down the line through the ovens. Also for your 9' walls, 54" is available in several lengths.
My thinking on horsing around with a butt backer is that a good finisher will produce a good butt joint faster. The finisher is going to have to finish the beveled edged joint anyway. And you'll be hard pressed to find a production hanger that'll putz with it. If you want a better finish, go with plaster.__________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
There are several reasons...taping a horizontal joint is easier and is less visible than one that runs from floor to ceiling...should the stud you join the boards on vertically twist or shrink, etc. while drying, its gonna telegraph through a vertical joint much worse...what little strength the sheetrock adds to framing is lost if joints are not staggered horizontilly...there are a few others, but Im not thinking too clearly right now...kinda in a rush.J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Exactly. When countertops or millwork scribing is a possible issue, I try to have the sheets run vertical when possible. I've also used the Butthanger product and it actually works well- but it adds time and $$$$ so it's not for production situations. Best used just for those countertop/millwork areas.
Ken Hill
"I've also used the Butthanger product and it actually works well- but it adds time and $$$$ so it's not for production situations."
Just curious, since you've used the stuff - How much extra time do you figure it took for each butt joint? And what are the cost of those things?The colder the X-ray table, the more of your body is required to be on it.
Hiya, Boss-
Typically I'd say it takes maybe 4 minutes to install a Butthanger on a full width seam. The job I used a bunch of these on was about 1000 sq.ft. of low ceiling, daylight basement, smooth finish (!). The butt joints' visibility was clearly going to be an issue given the finish and light conditions, so I wanted to make it as perfect as I could. When I had less than full width sheets I even cut down and modified the B-hangers to suit - when I did that the time probably went up to 10 minutes. I can understand why drywallers consider all that WAAAAY too much f**king around. One good thing about it, though, is that you land your breaks between joists, so you have a little more flexibility in measuring and layout. But hey, I'm a remodel carpenter, not a drywaller!
The Butthangers cost $7.50 at my drywall supply house.
Ken Hill
Edited 11/26/2002 9:31:10 PM ET by Ken Hill
Ken,
When dealing with production jobs every minute seems to count for a drywall crew. The few moments it takes to install, plus the cost of the hangers...you add it up over time and I guess it just doesnt pay. A good drywall crew is split between hangers and tapers. The hangers gets paid by the board.(and I dont mean by the # of boards on the walls....they count the # of boards used) Ive been on jobs where I could have sheetrocked my house with the "scraps" left behind. Tapers are also paid by the board for the most part, but if youve gotta go back and touch up the same boards you dont make anymore money, so a good taper gets it right the first time round, thus a good job taping butt joints.
I get paid for a job so speed has less to do with how much Im making. I might benefit from the Butthangers (heh heh...I said butthangers) but for now my brother does my taping and does an excellent job. Dont tell him I said that, he`ll want more money.J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Thanks for the information, Ken.
Incidentally, have you ever made an estimate as to how the use of butthangers adds to a smooth wall finish on a cost per sq. ft. basis?
Figuring the extra time that it takes a finish carpenter to fix the screw-ups of a poorly feathered butt seam, I think the homeowners will actually wind up saving money with the butthangers.
Personally, I'd gladly pay an extra couple pennies on the dollar to avoid the headaches that poorly feathered joints have caused me. I'm going to start doing work this way, and pass the information along to my clients on the next job.
Ragnar
Ken -
Is that $7.50 PER PIECE ??? Man, that sounds expensive. No way would I spend that kinda money.
You could slap some pieces of plywood and 1/8" strips together a lot cheaper than that. (Like GUNN308 was talking about)A conscience is what hurts when all your other parts feel so good.
All drywall books will tell you to have as few but joints as possible, and to lay out the wall accordingly. But what it really comes down to is the total number of seams, here is an "ideal wall" It is 12' long and 9' high. (almost all pro crews use 12' sheetrock) If you place the sheets verticly you will have three seams in the center of the wall with no but joints, lay them horizontaly and you will only have one seam in the middle of the wall and one at the top, and still have no but joints.
Obviously you will have longer walls and there will have to be a butt seam some where. It really comes down to time vs money.
I try to cut my but joints very carefully, and then go back and take of any paper "fuzz" with my knife so that when the pieces meet they are very smooth and don't require much mud to feather out. Justus Koshiol
Running Pug Construction
Drywall begins as a 4-600 ft long sheet, the bevels are put into the long edge early in the process. Not till it dries enough to flip is it cut into 32' long sheets. After heating and further drying, it is cut to fill the order or run for the time. To bevel the ends of the board probably doesn't make any sense either in manufacture nor in the end result of hanging. I understand the humps that remain invisible till you apply something that brings it out like trim, counters or whatever. I have seen print ads for a backer that does as you say, springs the end of the board to "indent" the butt area, tho have never used them nor the site built backing. I think it might be worthwhile but to suggest hangers use it would surely get you a look. Good finishers do what is required, make butts disappear. If the finisher I use is instructed, areas that will make a difference are shown special care. If you wish anything better, surely floated plaster would fill the bill.
__________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
http://www.butthanger.com It works well, or you can create your own using ply backing. It's a great technique for ceilings and critical areas, but yes, it is time consuming. As are most premiums.
http://butttaper.com/home.htm
Warning: dates in the calendar are closer than you think.
Barry E
Mugsy and Barry,
Thanks for the links. The tool that creates a small tapered edge was a new one for me. Seems like more work than blocking, though. Have you ever tried it, Barry?
There was a link to the USG manual describing (in over a hundred pages) how they recommend rock installation. They had another interesting method for the butt joints: backblocking. It's much the same concept as the "butthanger", but instead of using fasteners to pull the free edge of the board into a valley, they recommend that you apply compound to the blocking, and then apply face pressure from the visible side to push the free edges back into the setting compound. (Face pressure is applied by temporarily using a 1x2 along the joint, which is held in place by a number of "splints"). The splints and 1x2 are removed after the compound is set, and then you have a valley in which to place tape and mud.
So far, it seems like the "butthanger" concept is quickest and easiest, in my opinion. It provides the valley immediately; no need for intermediate setting times, etc.
Ragnar
Nope, haven't tried it as yet. It was developed by a drywaller who hangs out at the W& C bulletin board.
The main reasons I see humps in butt joints is because of trying to build the mud up to thick, or taping over loose paper at the butt joint. To this list I might add, breaking butts on the highest possible crowned stud.
Instead of building the mud up, spread it out. And cut the edges of the paper at your butts. I also carry a planer for those crowned studs.
Warning: dates in the calendar are closer than you think.
Barry E
I've seen hangers lay a strip of cardboard on top of the board at either side of the butt joint and then lay short pieces of strapping or 2x (8"+-) on top of the cardboard perpendicular to the joint. When its all screwed together, it pulls the butt joint upward (or inward on a wall) like that butt joint thingamajig.
I use a 10"x 44" srcap of ply/osb to which I staple, glue, or nail 1"x44"x1/8" strips of old whatever to the edges as backers behind my butts. I learned this from a frenchman, we used to hang 50/12' boards a day and our finishers loved our butts.
Jaybird mentioned that running the tapered edges vertically might telegraph along the stud. I've done it before over shear panel with no worries. I once tried thinning the back side of butt edges down, but then figured it would remove some of the structural integrity to cut away the paper.
WHATEVER WORKS GOOD
Jen"Insanity is trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results" "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" A. Einstein
Edited 12/3/2002 4:35:10 PM ET by Jencar