Hello, I am building my first house and what a wonderful challenge. Of course, it will be wonderful only if I live through it. My latest “need to know challenge” is about sheet rock. In going over colors with my painter he stated that a real problem is markings (where the nails were put in, etc) in the sheet rock. He said that the satin paint type I wanted for my walls will show everything and recommends high, high flat.
I have seen a rare nail indentations showing through the sheet rock but I thought that was somehow a mistake on the sheet rock people’s part. What can you do to have a really nice smooth finished sheet rock and what is high, high flat paint?
Replies
bc,
your painter is correct that flat paint will not show imperfections in the walls as much as semi or high gloss paints.But the responsibly for a good wall finish is the person who taped the wall.I'm guessing that your painter is seeing many imperfections and feels his paint job will not be up to his standards and is concerned. He might feel he would have to repair the tape job and this probably isn't in his bid.
Vince Carbone
Thanks for the response, so you are saying that the sheet rock people have to make sure they tape over (?) the nail marks, that is why they are showing through?
Joint compound applied to drywall has a different texture than the face paper of the board. This difference can be very noticeable. Certain lighting conditions magnify this problem. Sunlight shining through a window onto the drywall is especially tough. The world's most gifted spackler will not be able to help. The textures are different. Flat paint disguises it best. The higher the level of sheen, the more noticeable the texture difference. Your painter has a valid concern that you may not be happy with this. He is right to bring it to your attention. Personally, I think the latex wall paints with some level of sheen hold up better and clean better than flat. It makes it worth the trade off for me.
carpenter in transition
bc,
nails or screws don't get taped,just seams and corners.We like to sponge the walls after taping it makes for less dust,the first coat primer someone else mentioned is an excellent product that I've found blends the mud and paper surface so you can't tell where one ends and the other begins.Vince Carbone
As a remodeling contractor I run into this all the time. The compound & the paper on the drywall itself take the paint differently, some call it telagraphing. What I do to fix this is prime the walls with a USG product called sheet rock first coat. It is a heavy base coat primer. after it dries I sand with a 180-220 grit very lighty to smooth the surface then paint with what ever I want, flat , eg-shell, satin ect. I use this system all the time & get great results. The material cost only $6-8 a gal. & some labor but is well worth it
Good Luck with your projet.
Paul
Your drywaller still has to do a good job this will not forgive his sins.
Edited 4/26/2003 8:20:03 AM ET by CarpenterPJE
What good information you people give. Sheet rock first coat makes sense. I really wanted a little shine on the walls that is why I had hoped for a satin finish (little less than semi gloss but higher than egg shell) Sounds like if I have a good sheet rock person (they start in two days) and the painter uses sheet rock first coat or something like that I will be in business
As an add-on to Paul's good advice, consider a coat of enamel primer over the drywall primer: on a decent surface, it adds some depth to a satin paint and you can usually finish the wall with one coat (NB, for some colours, it's necessary to tint the enamel primer close to the finish colour to escape with one coat..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
Someone had mentioned "Sheetrock First Coat" - that's an ideal product and I steer the builders to it - it makes a whale of a difference. Also, now USG has a better product called "Tuff-Hide" but one needs a special sprayer as it sprays an 8 mil priler over it - same as a skim coat. For more info go to http://www.usg.com and look up both products. In critical areas if using "Sheetrock FirstCoat", prime it twice and roll it with paint 3 times - the more of each the better.
Before you pay or release your drywaller make sure it is up to the standards you paid for. Take a strong worklight and hold it close to wall at an angle. This will highlight most imperfections that would show up after paint. I use PVA drywall sealer which is probably similar to "First Coat", check it over again with light , skim coat imperfections, and touch up with more PVA. The PVA I have used is around $25 for a 5 gal can at Home Depot. Theirs is a Glidden product I believe. It takes care of the texture differences from drywall paper, sanded drywall paper, and drywall mud. It will not take the place of proper sanding or skim coating.
We used Benjamin Moore Aqua-pearl paint which rolled to an eggshell texture and is a semi-gloss with a slight pearl look. I think that it is the best line of paints I have used.
Good luck
Using a worklight shining across the wall to find imperfections is asking too much of the finish. From what I've read in the Walls and Ceiling forum the standard is natural light at 3 or 4 feet away. I've done the halogen lamp across the wall and it seems you never stop finding flaws.
IMHO the primers other posters mentioned should work. A more expensive option is a skim coat of mud over the entire surface. Since the homeowner is using an unusually glossy paint for walls the skim coat may be needed here and it should be an upcharge to the homeowner.
I agree with you. The standard may be natural light from 3 or 4 feet but if that is before paint you will find a big difference after painting. As I mentioned he should get the degree of finish he agreed to and paid for. If he contracted a low level then that is what should be expected. If this customer wants a really good finish that he is going to have to live with for a long time he should be prepared to pay appropriately.
I let my rocker out sooner than I should have and should have had quite a few areas skim coated. I am not talking about the whole area but seams that were obvious after primer, bubbles, etc. These take just a minute and usually do not even require sanding. I should have gone ahead and fixed it myself rather that painting. My rocker talked a good game with a sub who did the sanding and who was supposedly coming back to skim. Calls not returned, etc. Moral to story is hang on to final payment till promises are kept.
Traditionally, once a crafstman starts his portion of the work, he has accepted the prior conditions as being acceptable. So the painter is advising you now that he's not sure the rockers have done a good enough job. That good on his part, because once he starts painting, any flaws will be his to correct.
The guys are right that proper surface prep will prevent the different sheens from showing through. A similar problem is that the nail/screw holes may not have been properly covered. Only the joints are taped...the nail holes in the middle of the sheets are filled with 2 or more skim coats of joint compound and sanded smooth. Fortunately the problem you are facing is easy to correct...just be sure to inspect the walls thoroughly before paying the rockers. You might ask the painter to walk through with you after the rockers and before he starts, so he can point out anything he thinks needs to be addressed.
Do it right, or do it twice.
You've had some good advice,
If I were you I would;
1) clarify from the painter if the rock job was indeed done poorly (that may not be the case)
2) if it was, try to get some feel from him as to just how much of a problem this is (were there whole patches left unsanded or is it simply the inevitability of tiny imperfections showing through)
3) if underlying problems seem less significant to you, then tell him to go ahead and use the paint you want - add more primer as per advise here and pay him for doing that.
Do not let him talk you into using flat paint you don't want. I, for one, hate flat paint and won't even use it on ceilings. Last time I asked the paint guy at the store for 2 gallons of colored interior semi-gloss he looked at me as if I was from Mars. I said "yes, I'm sure" and everybody loves it. People say "what kind of paint IS that?" and I point out that they acually sell this stuff right next to the eggshell they usually buy. It's amazing.
It's possible that the painter is simply pushing flat because it makes his job easier and because it's $2/gal. cheaper.
Also, nail & screw indentations on sheetrock are pretty easy and cheap to fix (yourself). $5 of compound and a couple hours of your time could take care of hundreds of such imperfections - it's only the seams and corners that are tricky.
Edited 4/26/2003 4:57:50 PM ET by NannyGee
Post #6 said the sheetrock starts in two days. Tell the gc and the dw sub what your wall finish is going to be and the level of excelence it will demand. It is normal for finishers around here to give one touch up after the walls are primed, not after the finish coat. Get all of this writing and you won't have a problem. Do not let them use words like normal and acceptable construction practices. Those are escape words that cover thier butts in court. Read thier contracts and strike out those clauses. Write in your level of finish in detail, and have everyone sign off on it. Sounds like a lot of hassle doesn't it, but believe me you will get what you are paying for on this one. If everyone concerned knows what you demand, and what you are willing to pay for, they will dleiver the product you want in order to get paid.
Dave
I completely agree with Dave. While I don't want to make excuses for poor finishing by the taper, all parties should be on the same page before the work begins. As some have said, if you use a bright light when the house is dark, and look at a very low angle, it's nearly impossible to not see imperfections. Fortunately this situation isn't often encountered in every day life. If you tell the taper that you expect a certain level of finish, either he should give it to you or tell you that he's unable to work to that degree of perfection. You should not be surprised if he asks to raise his price (this is assuming he's honest). The wrong time to tell him your expectations is after he thinks he's done.
Hope everything turns out to your liking.
Jon Blakemore
BC, this place will give the meanings of different levels of DW finish. http://harddrywall.com/PAGES/layers.html
Luck,
SamT
Another item that I haven't seen mentioned yet; dust the walls and ceiling. If you or the painter don't take the time to knock the dust off of everything, you get a slight texture in any paint. You don't see it in the primer and flat top coat, but semigloss will show the dusty spots.
Dave
Great link. Thanks for the post.
Well drywall is another real detail to attend to, the more I am a part of this building process the more I see why each group of persons - carpenters, painters, roofers, sheet rock people, electricians really has to work together and how the gc has to be on top of things to keep everything rolling.
It would seem that I need to specify level five from the article on levels of drywall finishes since I do want semi-gloss on the walls.
I also think it would help if everyone who wanted to build a house had to go through an information module about each of the different parts of the "house to be", then we could really know what is going on and be able to have intelligent, well maybe more coherent, conversations with the construction people on the site.
It would seem that everyone should build at least two houses, one virtual like a simulation and then be allowed to build the second one when we could really keep things straight and be a constuctive part of the building team. I don't think any construction person wants to produce shoddy work and I don't think any homeowner wants to make it hard on the gc. It's just hard to know about everything and keep on top of things.
I can't thank you people enough for taking the time to work with me on this area. I am very thankful I have something to work with on the drywall.
I don't think any construction person wants to produce shoddy work and I don't think any homeowner wants to make it hard on the gc Stick around a while and you'll find people of both catagories. There are more than a few stories here about owners who seem to relish the idea of screwing the contractor/subcontractor, and some builders are only in it for the money.
Do it right, or do it twice.
Just wondering how it went with the sign guy?View ImageGo Jayhawks..............Next Year and daaa. Blues View Image
Still waiting for the meeting. This past week in San Antonio has been Fiesta, and annula week-long party. Supposed to celebrate Texas independence or something...I forget what....and probably nobody really cares. Several parades, one at night with torches, one with barges on the river, one parody parade with anybody who wants to participate (belly dancers, gay groups, middle school bands, dog clubs, whatever), the main day parade lasts about 3-4 hours...a really big deal. At night there is an area of old (really old) downtown, about 4 sq blocks, that is closed off and becomes a huge block party, lots of drink and food and drink and music and drink and lots of cops. It's actually a family affair, except Wed night is college night. Anyway, the whole thing is sponsored by some of the historic committees and society committees, money goes to scholarships for local kids. My client is on one of the committees this year, and he has been a little busy with Fiesta. It's a big enough deal that the city government actually closes on Friday...no trash pickup, no libraries, free parking meters, no city hall or building inspectors, etc.
And of course next week we have Cinco de Mayo (May 5th) which is a big Hispanic celebration. There's always something to party for down here.
Do it right, or do it twice.