A subcontractor is proposing to paint our trim with Sherwin Williams. The trim is rough sawn spruce/pine/fir.
He suggests A 100 which seems to be the bottom of the barrel in the exterior line.
Does anyone here use SW on a regular basis?
Bob’s next test date: 12/10/07
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Replies
Jim....just started using SW recently after my brother (a painter) had made the switch and was singing its praises.
I have been extremely happy with the paints thus far, however I have not done any exterior painting, or worked with the "A 100" line that you mention.
I will only add that SW has been exceptionally helpful and downright generous with me since opening an account locally. Got a call from one of their salesmen yesterday just to let me know that they are holding a "paint brush tade in". They will replace any and all brushes I have....regardless of age and condition...with a brand new Purdy of same size and style.
I have even been using SW in my own home as well, which previously saw only Ben Moore.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
I assume that you are talking about exterior trim.
I hate when the newbies leave out the pertinant information. - ;)
I use S-W almost exclusively.
A 100 is their builder/ goto exterior product. But thet have superior products to start with - which leaves A100 as a very good go to.
I would stand behind it for new construction - and have. It would not be my product choice for a full custom high end customer.
Depends on your project, and your reason for painting.
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Let's put t this way Jim - A100 SW is a far better paint than rough SPF is of a trim material
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<<Let's put it this way Jim - A100 SW is a far better paint than rough SPF is of a trim material>>Har har. Piffen, as usual, to the point.
Typically use Porter but SW Duration is good stuff. I used it on my house and a repaint on my last house. Definitely worth the money. As stated, A100 is builder grade. I hate that term. In other words, cheap paint but there is better.
John
J.R. Lazaro Builders, Inc.
Indianapolis, In.
First question is why SPF for exterior trim rather then something more appropriate
I read some where there is no such thing as cheap paint, either pay for it now or pay for it later. The statement was very true.
You'll either end up putting on more coats with a cheap paint or painting again to soon.
The latter being worse because you're paying more for labor with the additional paint prep the next time.
That said I have ZERO experience with A100 that I know of.
Edited 1/17/2008 9:33 pm ET by CAGIV
First question is why SPF for exterior trim
That is the standard in south Texas, although usually it is rough cedar."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I'm not that fond of rough sawn cedar. In my experiences with it in MI, I found it more likely to peel. I've installed miles of rs spruce and it appeals to me. I like the look of it better than rs cedar and it holds paint better. I was surprised to see the rs stock down here measure only 3/4" though. It looks anemic to me but far better than the hardi that everyone is in love with. There ain't no way I'm putting that on anything that I have a say in. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I'm not that fond of rough sawn cedar.
What "gets" me is the insistence on specifying RS Western Red Cedar and also painting it.
WRC in most of Texas will weather naturally and require little maintenence over a decent life-span. But, the donkey-clowns then paint it, just about guaranteeing needing maintenence work in in as little as 1-2 years (and every year deferred making it just that much more miserable a job, too).
But, what really gets me is that, having specified paint on WRC, it is then installed Rough Side Out! Huh? People just hate painters, or what?
Back when I was trying to turn a dime out of painting, I always tried to sell the A400 for exterior trim. Cost more per bucket, but you usually did not need as much as with the A100 with the added benefit to the client that they never had their house "in" primer. But, that's from decades ago, I can only guess what modern miracles of chemistry have made of paint nowadays <tongue-in-cheek,mostly>Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I had the same experience in MI with WRC fencing. Left naturally, it turned grey which was acceptable to me and it weathered fine. Most people view that as ugly though and in need of paint.I also knew a carpenter that had to retro fit a large custom home with RS Spruce because the WRC, installed smooth side out, wouldn't hold the paint. The painter and builder tried several different times to paint it and it kept failing almost instantly. I myself had a few pieces of RS Cedar mixed in with RS SPruce on the Huron house and I had trouble keeping the paint on it while the spruce held fast. The grain pattern on the cedar was too minimal for my tastes too. I prefer a rustic look. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I prefer a rustic look.
I do too.
I like the idea of not painting, too <G>Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Jim - I use a lot of WRC extrerior for railings and window sills and trim. Never a problem with paain and this is one of the harsher climates you can paint in. It has to be sanded first to remove mill glaze and use paint formmulated for the cedars, not just any old primer slapped on it.The problem was with the painters, not the wood.
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I've noticed the glaze too. The cedar that I had peel was rough sawn. It was exposed to the sun for longer than it should have been. Subsequent coats fixed the problem and stuck.Bruce, thanks for that tip. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim
I am leary of any SPF as a exterior trim. Maybe what you are refering to as RS spruce is different than the #2 lumber we use.
From my experience any #2 SPF even with a good paint job is going to rot in our Iowa climate.
I have been using cedar for painted trim. I've got some on my house now, I'll see how it lasts. I used 5/4 deck board to make 4" wide exterior trim and Hardi lap siding for a recent addition on my house.
Cap mac might be right about painters will be mad, but I used cedar rough side out trim on a garden shed this fall. It really sucked up the primer. Seems to me a pourous surface has more grab to it.
My 100 year old + house has old growth trim. When I got it 20 years ago most of the window sills had been bare for years. Still good wood. Today's finger jointed brick mold with a good paint job will be rotten 3-5 years.
Now days I don't what to use for exterior trim, because I have read other places about cedar no holding paint well.
I don't have much experience with Azek. It's a special order item at our yard.
Rich
Something is wrong if your #2 spf is rotting if it is painted correctly. When I started in the early 70's, we used a smooth #2 White pine trim, painted. Late in the 70's, the builders switched to RS Cedar and then went to a cheaper RS Spruce. I have never heard anyone complaining about the spruce rotting in several years.One thing might be different in the MI installations than your Iowa installation. In MI, they take the sealing and caulking of ALL components seriously. Water DOES NOT get behind the trimmed wood which would quickly ruin every paint job. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim
I do mostly remodeling and repair, so I follow up on other peoples work and repair the rotten damage. Henceforth I don't know what goes into the prep work of a trim installation.
Rarely do I see back priming or end grain painted or caulked. I see alot of caulk failures on the corners.
I also see alot of newer door jambs and brickmold rotten in the bottom 6-12 inches.
Rich
I suspect inadequate caulk and inadequate drying conditions in addition to the bottoms not being sealed. Aside from changing everything to composite materials (to me, that's like throwing out the baby with the bath water), what do you suggest? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim
I suspect inadequate caulk and inadequate drying conditions in addition to the bottoms not being sealed.
Aside from changing everything to composite materials (to me, that's like throwing out the baby with the bath water), what do you suggest? Jim
Now days I don't what to use for exterior trim, Rich
My MO is usually to use Hardi siding in 4x8 or lap siding and cedar for the trim pieces.
I did my basement cellar door with treated frame and pine car siding about 5-8 years ago (bad memory). Oil based primer and latex finish coat both sides. And it has been going bad for about 2 years. I did not paint the car siding before assembly. I did a shed door this fall with cedar T&G with priming before assembly and finish coat after assembly. That was a pain.
I see alot of this particle board trim and fascia with a rough saw look, primed one side come through the lumber yard that are going to the builders in the big city 20 miles away.
That would scare me.
Rich
rich...
<<<
I see alot of this particle board trim and fascia with a rough saw look, primed one side come through the lumber yard that are going to the builders in the big city 20 miles away.>>>
what brand is it .. if it's Miratech or GP PrimeTrim, we've used both since about '95
if it's getting painted, the only things we use for trim now are those two products or Azek
we only use wood if there is going to be a clear finish
and we do it for performance.. not to save money
the exterior MDF products ( Miratech & GPPT ) are better in terms of maintenance and paint holding qualitiesMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike
I don't know what brand it is. I'll have to stop by the pile and take a look for a label. I guess I am still in the mode of thinking if it is partilce board then it will swell when it gets any amount of moisture.
Miratech or GP PrimeTrim, we've used both since about '95
Do they use a different resin to make these? I have read real good reports on Advantech subfloor (spelling??). And I have seen engineered studs resist moisture absorption.
Can you cut this to size and then reprime the edges? Does it come in smooth?
Does Azek Hole paint? I have little exposure to that product. I have used it once to trim a egress window.
Thanks
yes, they use a different resin, which is the whole deal
and yes you can machine it , reprime it and paint it
it doesn't like edge nailing .. and it will wick if left in contact with wet horizontal surfaces ( as wood will )
i'd prefer if they primed it all four sides ( they prime three .. we backprime in the field )
and we usually use the backside out ( smooth side ).. i don't know where the American public got sold this bill of goods about "wood grain".. i spent the first twenty years of my career trying to get rid of "wood grain"
Azek loves paint.. and doesn't care if it is primed.. the edges and milled surface have a different texture, so that has to be taken into accountMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike
Thank you for answering my questions.
Sorry for my ignorance.
I just don't have much experience with these products and I don't always believe the manufaturers hype. I want to see real world performance.
Rich
what ignorance ?
i learn more here than i do anyplace elseMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike
what ignorance ?
i learn more here than i do anyplace else
Thanks
BT is like a hundred eyes out there looking for new products or techinques, or websites.
More than I could ever encounter by myself in my small world.
Rich
Cap mac might be right about painters will be mad
No more mad than a hatter (those Kilz fumes in one too many small closets, doncha'know? <g>)
but I used cedar rough side out trim on a garden shed this fall. It really sucked up the primer. Seems to me a pourous surface has more grab to it.
Nah, the "issue" I was referring to was that, in our Texas climate, WRC's natural oils will be just mobile enough to lift a coat of paint in double-quick time. On the rough side of the RS, it's not only extra hard to clean up, but it looks more miserable faster--at least to me.
Did a job over near Waco where the tract builder did not prime any of the exterior trim--it all got 2 (thick-n-heavy) coats of finish color. All the unsold spec houses were "touched up" the same way. The house I worked on, it was easier to peel the trim off and install it reversed than find any 2 grit for the beltsander . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
"cedar rough side out trim on a garden shed this fall. It really sucked up the primer. Seems to me a pourous surface has more grab to it."a rough sawn surface has about 30% more surface area to cover with paint than a smooth suraface, so it will use that much more paint
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Jim Allen
Do you really mean paint & not stain on exterior rs cedar? I am in western Michigan and have had good luck with latex stain (local paint company mixes its own products).
In fact I have some on my own home installed & stained in '92 that now shows fading, but zero peeling.
Now if clients insist on paint, I agree, bad choice
Yes I do mean paint. The trim comes factory primed. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
i use sw on exterior exclusively. i usually use superpaint which is one step above a100. the reason is i can usually get superpaint on sale for a couple bucks more than a100. when using them and looking at durability i'm not sure i can tell the difference. both i will prime,then almost always do 2 coats,unless maybe it's white and primer is white.
if you are a little unsure call a sw store ask prices on both,shouldn't be more than 5.then ask your painter to step up to super and pay the difference. duration is also really good and i have used it 3-4 times when i had trouble with paint holding on a particular house.
bottom line i'd rather have a100 than the best baher or glidden they make. larry
if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Jim,
Guess it depends on the project and the material it's applied to.
The A100 has it's place, it's 100% acrylic latex.
I would be more concerned if they are going to use a primer, how many topcoats will be applied, how they are going to apply it and if they spray, given the rough wood are they going to backbrush.
Up to my eyeballs in A-100 primer.
It sucks.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Really? That was the recommended primer by the SW fokls for my Hardi and the job looks as good as the day i did it over three years ago.
splinter
I believe the only Exterior oil base or latex primer SW has is called A-100. It's a good product.
In the finish coat latex they have A-100 (15 year), Super paint (25 year) and Duration (cosnidered lifetime).
I think the Super Paint is $3-$5 more per gallon than A-100. Not sure though. The Duration is in the $40/ gallon range and it is self priming.
Rich
just started using SW on current project $45 a gallon in Ont. Canada, that's my main beef, if it comes in a can its 3.78 litres, or something like that, (1 gallon (cdn) = 4.54 litres) and the plastic pour cans are even less!, yet they still add enough color tones to mix 1 gallon ..
Hmmm....i'll have to look into this 'self-priming' aspect. I've never tried that kind of product.
Durtion here is in the 48 dollar range
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Piffin
<!----><!----><!----><!---->
Durtion here is in the 48 dollar range
I'm probably behind on the prices. I know their are no contractor discounts. You pay retail or the retail sale price. Most everthing else at SW is 20% off for me.
We use it alot for projects that require a small amount of paint. We can get the priming and the finish coat out of the same can.
Then it saves you money over primer and finish coat.
Rich<!---->
Edited 1/19/2008 10:28 am ET by cargin
They also have a latex and oil based interior/exterior primer sealers.PREPRITE¯ PROBLOCK¯ INT/EXT LATEX PRIMER/SEALER
PREPRITE¯ QUICK SEAL ALKYD FAST DRY PRIMERThe Problock is similar to Bullseye 123..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Bill
You're right. Used the interior product just this week. It sanded up beautifully.
When I am doing a exterior prime job, my SW store tells me to use A-100 oil primer if you want the best.
Use the Prep-rite if you want it quick or need to block stains.
Rich
We've had no less than 3 painting contractors on this one job. The HO insists on SW A-100 OIL Primer, and 2 of the three paint slingers advised against the oil primer, it will crack or alligator under the Duration latex top coat.
I have seen evidence of that beginning already on application that ws done in August.
This is on Cypress, not hardie..cornice work.
YMMVSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Thanks for the explanation. Paint scraping has such a low happiness quotient that i try to keep all the wood inside the house now. Hardie would probably look good with a layer of chicken soup slapped on it...
Oil or latex primer?A-100¯ EXTERIOR LATEX FLAT
A-100¯ EXTERIOR LATEX GLOSS
A-100¯ EXTERIOR LATEX PRIMER
A-100¯ EXTERIOR LATEX SATIN
A-100¯ EXTERIOR OIL PRIMER.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
A-100 OIL PRIMER Followed by Duration Latex. That is what I take issue with, the oil primer/combo.
The best combo is actually a bonding primer, and not an oil based primer. The bonding primer has more forgiveness in wood changes.
On Hardie or similar, I imagine that the A-100 OIL Primer is fine.
This customer wants primer, even tho' the Duration is supposedly self priming..Personally I think it is liquid caulk and the small things I have used it ( the Duration) on , in extreme heat, it snotted up quite a lot. But that is me fooloing around with it.
We ran out of decent weather before the final sanding after scraping could be done, that resumes when the temps allow priming again. I am NOT the painter, I just stoopervise the ones that the HO hires, and help them when they discover what needs carpentry attn.
But after repeated contact with SW, they agree'd a Bonding primer would be a better choice, they are not painters ( the store reps) but they agreed with the painter who was there, and is one of the better ones in the area, for quality painting.
I have been using Porters Permanizer ( basically the same claims) and it too is a self priming product but at my home, I am not working over bare wood, and it all is preprimed material.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
I read the drying times on the paint labels that claim oilbase but most dry to recoat in like an hour or so.
I remember in years back an oil based primer was like wait till the next day at earliest.
I'm thinking the only modern claim to oilbase primer is you get to clean the brush with paint thinner.
be turd-in-time
Peace full.
"I'm thinking the only modern claim to oilbase primer is you get to clean the brush with paint thinner."Which is a blessing in itself. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
SW Duration is our exterior paint of choice. Don't know about the other lines though.
I don't see that listed on the SW site: http://www3.sherwin.com/do_it_yourself/sherwin_williams_products/exterior_house_paint/paints/ Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
It's the top item on the page you linked to.
Some of the others' posts have touched on what I see as the crux of the issue: Don't micro-manage. You hire a pro for his judgment, as much as for anything else. Agree to what needs doing - then get out of the way.
Many, many times I've seen others doing a job in an unexpected way ... but, as the job progressed, I was able to see that there was usually a method to their madness.
Oddly enough, I've learned two main things about the materials we use:
1) The quality of the material is a distant second to the need for proper design and skillful use; and,
2) Supply houses that cater to pros don't sell junk. The brands and product lines might not be what the home center has, or some magazine endorses ... but competition ensures that the merchant can't sell junk.
Micro manage? I don't think so. I'm trying to determine whether to ask the paint contractor to upgrade his choice of materials. All too often, the subs are afraid to upgrade their materials because they are aftraid they'll lose the job. I don't believe that every product that is labeled "builder grade" is a bad thing. Much of what the manufacturers push is little more than hype and profit and that's what I'm trying to decipher. I defer my judgment to the collective wisdom of TU. As far as deferring to the "pro" that has offered his services....I'm not willing to anoint him quite yet. I'm still in the preliminary discovery phases of my investigation. Before I start asking him these same questions, I want to be armed with a foundation of knowledge to judge his answers. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Fair enough. To again harp on a common theme in paint discussions, IMO the paint / primer used is probably the least important part of a paint job. What matters? Preparation first, and foremost by a long margin. The 'best' paint can't shine with poor preparation. The customers who expect the painter to fly through a paint job in the absolute minimum time, for the lowest imaginable price .... they get little more than globs of paint thrown on the wall, sure to look like **** in the short time before they fall off. A distant second to preparation is the application. The best paint, in my hands, yields but average results. Why? Because I'm no pro. I continue to be puzzled when 'consumer' magazines continue to waste ink on evaluating the materials. I'll choose a pro using K-Mart paint, over an amateur using P&L, every time.
I hate Sherwin Williams paint interior or exterior.
My sister was just painting her kitchen with SW kept calling me with coverage problems streaking,etc. Kept telling her it is the paint. She said its top line SW. Told her to go get colored matched Behr at HD you will have no problem, she did and no problem. I am not saying Behr is the end all just do not like SW. Had padst problems with it too.
By the way it was a sage green getting a slightly darker sage green.
Wallyo
PS
Why not a Solid stain on the rough sawn.
Edited 1/18/2008 1:38 pm ET by wallyo
I think a solid stain is the better idea too. Thats why I'm here asking.I've had a bad experience with Behr. I don't trust them anymore but I don't paint much either...I really don't know what I'm doing. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
"I think a solid stain is the better idea too. Thats why I'm here asking."
my "barn restoration" project from a coupla years back ...
that's what I planned for ... solid color stain.
my painter said Nope!
as it was ... the customer already had conned the SW dealer close to her to give her the contractors prices ... so we went with SW 100 prmier and paint.
on a 150 year old barn ... weathered and beaten ...
probably hemlock ...
took 2 coats primer and 2 coats paint 2 sides and 2 primer 3 paint on the weather side ... all hand brushed ... he wouldn't spray or roll ... said it had to be brushed in.
all I can say is that old wood looked brand new when all was said and done.
customer was amazed ... we did the barn while she had the house "epoxy painted" ... or some such deal. The house got the worlds most expensive paint job ... and even that painting contractor was amazed.
coupla years later and it still looks great.
I know nothing about painting ...
but SW builders-grade can't be too bad.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Edited 1/19/2008 2:02 am ET by JeffBuck
Edited 1/19/2008 2:03 am ET by JeffBuck
i'll bet she was using the little plastic tubs, they are allot less than a gallon but they put a gallons worth of tint in there anyway ..
little plactic tubs of Behr or SW?In either both were regular gallon tin/plastic cans like your Dad used to use.Wallyo
jim.. i haven't read any of the other responces yet.. but here's what i know
i built two houses on spec in '75 - '76... neither of the two owners have been much on maintenance.. so , they have never repainted either house
i primed & backprimed all the red cedar claps with oil base primer before we installed them
the trim was clear pine
then we gave them 2 coats of A-100
it's still there.. the paint, that is
some of the trim is gone, but that is because the end grain wicked water behind the paint and the butt ends rotted
today one of the most praised paints that my painters talk about is S&W Duration
who knows ?
but 32 years in our climate on these two houses tells me there was nothing much wrong with the A-100
maybe, as in all paint jobs, the siding material and the primer and prep work have more to do with it
I'd rather spend the bucks upfront for the duration, even though it won't last the amount of years on the warranty. One of the benefits of painting is that you can freshen the house up every few years. Even if it does it's job, it still needs to be freshened and brightened. I forgot to mention that most of the trim is factory primed....if that will make a difference. The end grain wicking is certainly an issue. Water should not be getting into the end grain on joints...but it is susceptible on the ends of the bottom of corner boards that terminate over a roof. In MI, that's were I say the most typical damage...about the first foot. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue - I don't have an answer to your question but I've noticed over the last few years on the high end jobs the painters are using more and more SW Duration. 5 years ago, I seldom saw an SW product (they all used BM and Porter previously). Must be something to it.http://grantlogan.net/
"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
The Duration has ben popular here too.I used it the first time myself on a couple small jobs this past year. I like the way it covers and goes on smoothly and dries fast.But I can't comment on longevity yet.
ask me again in ten years
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
ask me again in ten years
I tried to do the math and translate that to number of posts.....My wife came running in.
Said she smelled something burning. Now I got a headache.
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
Piffin in 10 years....
well I guess modern medicine has made great strides lately
;)
"but 32 years in our climate on these two houses tells me there was nothing much wrong with the A-100"Do you really think that the paint forumlation used in 1975 is the same as that in 2008? Not saying good or bad, but probably MUCH different."some of the trim is gone, but that is because the end grain wicked water behind the paint and the butt ends rottedsome of the trim is gone, but that is because the end grain wicked water behind the paint and the butt ends rotted"The US Forest Products labs recommend treating with a paintable water repellant/protectant.Had a picture with 2 windows side by side. One treated looked good and the one next to it was not treated and the paint was peeling where water got into the end grain..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Mike,I totally agree with you. All of our modern science has not reduced the major contribution that workmanship makes to durability. This is good, because if it was not so, we might be out of a job.Bill
Jim,
If you have chance stop by the SW store on Airport Blvd and 290. A real knowledgeable and competent group of folks there. That store is strictly a commercial store. Talk to Matt or David. I personally use A-100 oil base primer followed by Superpaint exterior or Duration home exterior latex. Never had a problem and in my opinion a top notch product.
We still need to do lunch one of these days.
Hope all finds you well
Bruce