Here’s one for you roofers concerning install. When you quote a shingle install, do you go back and charge the customer an extra price to install the starter strip, or do you include it in the price price per square. He installed the felt with the shingle cost, so why not the starter strip , huh?
Basically the contact if for 33 squares of shingles @ $150 per square. Now he is mentioning that the he charges for the starter also.. This came to light after the we had a price discrepacy over the tearoff when he said that ther roof was was 33 squares and he was billing for 38 because of the ridge cap and rake caping. My understanding was the roof tear of was based on squares of the roof. If it was going to be more, he should have told me first. right?
Replies
Is this a licensed contractor?
A written quote?
Has he started?
If not, send him packing.
Joe H
Yes, he's licensed
Yes it's quoted. priced per square for tearoff and install.
Tear off: $125 per square. We furnish container.
Install. $150 per square. Elk Grande(Nailed, Not stapled) over 30lb felt.
Ridge. $1.50 per foot
All dryrot/damage/sheeting extra at $65 per hour per man.
Plus materials.
Tear off is completed, install is 1/2 done
i'd say he's trying to rip off more than just the roof!
Stand firm-starter strip is not an extra.
he's already quoted a linear foot price for cap so no extra sq's should be paid there either.
That 125 a SQ just for tear off is way high as well I'd say. Esp. the HO providing the dump fees..
Depends on the roof of course, but still sounds real IFFY to me.
Hey, were doing a cone slate job at the old slate job we did last winter...I'll be pestering ya. LOL
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
There is no cure for stupid. R. White.
You know if I can offer some advice or moral support that I'll be glad to help.
Don't forget the pictures!
I thought the removal cost was high too-I didn't look to see if it was a two layer rip,or maybe it wasn't mentioned.
I think plan "a" is salvage what we can on the redo...we'll see about that. Grant has about a pallet ( mebbe a few sq) left over from that pool house.
I am guessing we want a tile saw set up to taper all the slates. Angle grinder is too slow.
Nice pergola BTW!
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
There is no cure for stupid. R. White.
Sphere,
A tile saw won't chamfer the edges like the edge that comes from the quarry.
A hand slate cutter will leave the desired edge but also slow-patterns to be made,transferred ,cut,holes drilled-really labor intensive.
I'm glad you saw the pergola-we're really happy with the end result. Thanks
Walter
Thats right..We be cuttin with the chomper. I spaced out.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
There is no cure for stupid. R. White.
It seems like we get one of the posts at least once a week.
"My contractor just came up and told me that X was not included in his quote and that I'll have to pay extra for it."
People, a quote is for a complete job, UNLESS EXCLUSIONS ARE SPECIFIED. Ask any lawyer or judge and they'll tell you the contractor will never win that in court. You as a homeowner are not even expected to know what starters are. The roofer is supposed to be a pro and sell you a complete job. Depending on what state you live in he may very well be breaking the law.
Asking for extra dough for starters is the stupidest one we've heard in a while. It's exactly like tires on a car.
I'm not taking the roofer's side here but let's play what if...This is not a firm contract from the description. That is bad for the HO - shouldn't do it. it is an estimate based on number of squares used, sounds like to me. So If my HO asked me for that kind of a dealand then bought starter strip instead of shingles, but expected me to apply it for free ---see where I'm going? I'd want to charge the equivalent amt I would get for usiung shingles as starter.There's lots of good reasons for using shingles as starter. The rolled stuff doesn't unroll straight ona cool day, so it will create lumps. It does not have a seal down strip, so wind can catch things. And almost every delivery I ever had, there were a few damaged shingles, so they get used in the strat position and damaage cut off - all that doesn't count though for heavy archy shingles. - but come to the ridge material. That is an extra item. If the shingles are four bundles to the square and there are separate specially made ridge, four bundles of those would count as a square.This guy probably is a con job but mis-understandings like this come up betwen a one time HO and shingle subs but not between a general and his shingle sub who worek together regularly. There can be some regional differences of interpretation too....
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OK, based on your second bit of info, thewre is no way to know how much the bill is untill the shingles are all laid
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That's like buying a car and after you sign the papers the salesman says, "Oh, by the way, do you want tires on it? How about a battery. Battery's not included...."
You don't buy a car by the pound thopugh. That is where this deal went sour. migraine thought the "estimate" was accurate at 33 sq
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Yes your right, I origionally figured 32ish and I also told him that I might be off and it's his job to verify. When he went up on the roof he said that the roof measured out at 33 squares and he ordered 35 squares of shingles... let alone the fact that when when first spoke he never spelled out how he priced out the cost of a tear off.
Ok. Now this is where I considered the bid to be "binding" he did not say well we have 33 squares of shigles plus rake cap, plus ridge cap, plus.... he said 33 squares of shingles to tear off. he then tried to tell me that his tear of guy charges him for one and two layers. I then told him thet that is true, but you have that cost from him before the job as in my neighbor.
Now for the shingles. The guys I know charge by the size of the roof(33 squares) and order extra shingles because of waste. And I know that there are companies out there that add an extra few squares of shingle into the labor bid. I really don't have a problem with that if it happens.
I can "understand" and absorb the cost of 2 extra squares of shingles being installed if that is how he figures it. What I can't accept is when the tearoff goes from 33 to 35 to 38 squares. Then the install goes from 33 to 35squares. Plus the suggestion of charging for starter(350'). Now we are talking in excess of $1000, not $300(for 2 extra squares installed) labor. This is where the problem is.
Really what this whole thing comes down to is that I should have had him climb up on the roof and give a binding closed contract bid with no extras.
It just seemed like this was just too simple of a "contract"
After 20+ years in this business, I still need a swift kick in the rear for thinking that everybody will treat a job the same as I would.
As a side note. Not that it matters because I agreed to the price, nor am I upset about how much he is making. It basically has taken 2 guys 4 days of 6 hours a day plus one addtional guy , one 6 hour day to tear off the roof for a total of 54hours. Based on the origional price of 33 squares that is $76 per hour. The install will be around 4days and run 2 guys 6 hours days. That is about $100 per hour. Tudor home with 8/12 and 14/12 pitches. 50/50 mix.
That's about what I expected. if I measure it at 33 and figure 15% waste, that is a 38 square roof and that is how I would bid it.That steep pitch is probably why the high price on tearoff.He should have been more clear up front to avoid suprising you, but some of the way he did it doesn't sound right. Oh Well
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Just thought I'd give you and all the others a final follow up on the completion of this job...
Billed for:
installing starter strip (he agreed to deduct))
2x4x16's for temp nailing to rafter ends/ placement of shingles (I paid. I kinda sorta can see this charge)
2x6x10's for using with his roof brackets (I paid even though this should be part of his ""equipment"" )
labor for installing drip flashing which he said he wouldn't charge for ( he agreed to deduct)
Additional tearoff 5 squares (I paid 2, he deducted 3)
2 additional squares shingles (I paid labor and material which I can understand)
One of their coil nailers broke and I loaned them my Senco for 3 days. They don't even have an extra one which makes no sense if this is you livelihood.
remove 3 pieces of 1x4 dryrot and replace:1 1/2 hrs (I paid even though it was only an 1/2 hrs max time)
4 year warranty now is a 4 year non transferable warranty. He want's me to sign away this change in the contract. What's your feeling about this???
In the end I told him that I'm not unhappy with his work. I'm just don't care for the way that he did not clarify things in the beginning(in other words, does business). His comment was that this is the way that he does his work. My response back was that then he should know that by now that he should be making things more clear to people in the beginning and not have all these surprises in the end.
I also told him that if he would have originally priced this job out this way, then I would have not used him to begin with because the prices just for the roofing alone added up to more than others in the area. There was another company that was quite a bit less on the tear off and I chose not to use them because I figured it was better to keep the whole job "under one roof" than to split it up. The other roofing company really didn't care who did the tear off.
but then again, these others could have been a whole 'nother set of problems.
Moving to an area where you don't know anybody really does make it hard finding good references
hard to imagine charging for his staging planks for the roof brakets. Mine have been moved from one job to another about five or six times in the last year. That is equipment overhead!
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The starter strip is always quoted in our bids and everybody else that I know of around here as well. I have never heard of that being a major price bump in any case.
A bundle of elk starter covers 120' of eave ( an average house) and costs about 15 bucks, the slowest guy on our crew can install all the starter on an average house in about a half hour. So at their hourly rate it should only be an add of 45 bucks or so.
How much additional money is he trying to hit you up for?
Edited 7/7/2006 10:26 pm ET by woody1777
mig..... the roofer measures the roof... the roof never changes.... if it is 33 sq. that is what he prices it at... included in his price is EVERYTHING he needs to install the 33 sq
drip edge
ice & water at the eaves
felt.....nails.... starter...... and extra shingles for hips, valleys, waste & caps ( he needed 5 extra sq.... which was figured in his price )
if he can't estimate his quantities correctly, that's his problem , not yours
he quoted 3 items...
33 sq. tear off
33 sq. of roofing installed
& so many LF of ridge
PLUS MATERIALS
when , he's done, inspect the work... any bumps usually mean high nails...if the job is correct, pay his quoted price
how come you didn't get a fixed price ? the only unknown is the possible replacement of sheathing..... which is usually quoted by the sf or sheet... not by the hour
Edited 7/8/2006 10:55 am ET by MikeSmith
Thanks guys...
I really did know the answer to this.. really, I did.
I just posted this to get your feed back so as to print it out and stick this in his face and walk away.
I have lost all patience in dealing with these types of people. I have NEVER treated MY customers this way and I am not in the frame of mind to even start discussing it with him at this point.
"I just posted this to get your feed back so as to print it out and stick this in his face and walk away. "Wait a minute...Who is it that wanted the materials billed separately? You or him?usually when a deal like this comes up, it is because the HO is looking for a way to save money and be treated like a GC. It is not clear to me how you and he came together and worked this up.you should not have agreed to a price per square and it is not good business to offer it to HO on his part, but you could be a aprty to the problem too.When you mention "we haul off the debrius" did you mean him or you?I'm trying to get full understanding here. This is doine differently in different places and with different relationships.
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Sorry for not responding to this...
The contractor is the one that separated the materials and I did not ask him to do so. I really don't care either way. I did not order the materials or pay for them. I did offer to write a check for them when the materials did arrive, which he declined. Only reason for this is to prevent a possible future lein problem if he failed to pay the supplier.
I am the one responsible for the suppling the container and removing it. That is the way it is in our area. If he had a tearoff vehicle, it would have been different. Where we live the homeowner is ultimately responsible for all container charges.(my wife's worked for the refuse co. in the past)
The city will not give a final on the roof without a receipt from the waste company that substantiates the amount material that went to the landfill. This is a great idea to keep people from illegal dumping.
I also pulled the permit and gave them his name as the one doing the work as they have his info on file. I did this so that he would not have to take the time to go to the city. He said that it would save him time, which would cost me more money and I had to go there anyway. He prefers the homeowner doing this whenever possible.
>>The city will not give a final on the roof without a receipt from the waste company that substantiates the amount material that went to the landfill. This is a great idea to keep people from illegal dumping.
That's excellent. Of course there are ways to circumvent, but it's a good policy anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>The city will not give a final on the roof without a receipt from the waste company that substantiates the amount material that went to the landfill. This is a great idea to keep people from illegal dumping. Just curious about this. What difference does it make how much goes to the landfill? Do you pay a fee or is it paid by tax money?
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Yes, we pay to dump the material. It is the cities' way off controling the illegal dumping that had been occuring in the out lying hills. Just as david as suggested, you could circumvent the dumping, but this just tends to keep the "honest" people honest.
Live and learn I suppose. It does sound like you weere trying to save a buck by measuring tight and using unit pricing. I suppose drip edge isn't automatically included in a roof job so assuming that it was may be on you.
FWIW, I always bid in terms of "lump sum"... meaning that i give one price for a job that includes A,B&C. I would suggest that you do/get the same in the future.
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Whew! Let's say it is twenty years ago and I'm a roofer still...
two ways available - I figure it up and I know it will take me X number of squares of shingles to do the job. I figure up my materials cost, dump fees, permit, labour, taxes and profit, and then I quote you a total cost for the job. It will cost you that much no matter if I use twenty secven squares or fourty squares. I price you a roof and that is what yopu get.
I might have qualified that total by the possibility of rotted wood repairs or ssomething, but it was mentioned up front. If I was not sure how many layers were already on the roof, I might have tested before quoting or I would have left an openning for escalating the price based on twice as much labour and dump fees, but you would know ahead of time how much total if that came up.
The other way - say you wanted to buy the materials and you hada dump truck and wanted thje cheapest labour only price you could get. I wouldn't even measure the roof. I would tell you $15/square for each layer of tear-off and $15/square for installation fee based on materials used to complete the job.
now, I do not use the rolled starter material. I use the shingles. It takes a square or two of shingles to do the starter course. And I cut the ridge up out of shingles too. A good sized hip house can take 3-4 squares of shingles just to do the ridge. I can't tell which of the two is your contract from your description.
Sounds to me like he did not figure waste for starter and ridge when he made the estimate, and wants to make a draw for the teasr-off work before finishing the job. If that is what is going on, tell him you will pay for the 33 sq unless it takes more to do the roof.
of course, this still leaves you at his mercy. I had integrity to not waste materials- take cutoff from one side and re-use half shingle at other end, etc- or use up for ride3 pieces. But i've seen guys who will only make one cut and then it's trash for the end piece. They can use 15% more shingles on the same roof as me. I've heard S Hazlett same something similar.
So this guy can make sure to use at least 38 sq of materials to make the total come out.
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