Looking at having the roof on our house replaced. Debating between Timbertech and Certanteed. Either choice will be dimensional.
Any thoughts?
Thanks
Barney
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Certainteed has thousands of dissatisfied customers in this part of the country. Sold defective shingles (failed in less than ten years) and then backed them up with the absolute minimum compliance with the warranty terms they could legally manage. They're currently fighting a class action.
Thank you for the heads up. I appreciate it.Someone told me about the Timbertech shingles. Gave them good reviews.
Someone told me about the Timbertech
You sure it wasn't Timberline? That would be the Elk/GAF shingle and it is a very good shingle.
I've never heard of Timbertech, except for decks.....Naive but refreshing !
Thanks. You are correct. It was Timberline not timbertech. The mind is a terrible thing to waste. The baby is making me tired.I appreciate the correction/advice.
Woody,
Got an estimate the other night for the roof.estimate was for 15lbs feltTimberline Prestique 30 year.Thoughts on these? Definitely appreciate the comments.Thanks
Barney<!----><!----><!---->
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Its not the destination, but the integrity of the journey.<!----><!---->
timberline Prestique---is apparently the Elk prestique production line now that GAF bought out Elk
It's a good shingle----- currently i use more certainteed than anything else--but over the years ELK was what I used the most of.
Between the prestique line--and the Certainteed line--there will be some color choices to make---for instance certainteed "heather blend' is very similar to Prestique "barkwood'- but to my eye the barkwood looks betterand the Heatherblend is a little drab and muddy
stephen
From other posts it appears that the two companies: Certaintee and Timberline have been buying up all the smaller outfits. There definitely were a lot of color choices in the sample pack that was left with us.
Barney<!----><!----><!---->
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Its not the destination, but the integrity of the journey.<!----><!---->
Barney
My two cents.
I never use 15lb felt.
Used to always use 30lb.
Tamko felt was the best, but my yards would always bring in some off brand and the quality wasn't as good.
Hard to get it to lay flat.
I have started using Roofer's Select (for about 4 years) by Certainteed. Fiberglass reinforced stuff, not as thick as 30 lb but just as tough. It lays flat and it doesn't wrinkle as bad if it gets some rain like the 30 lb or the 15 lb.
In my book 15 lb is too light and tears too easily.
Can't comment on the GAF or the Elk because we don't see much of them around here.
I was on a Certainteed Horizon roof today that is 5 years old and badly cracked. Owner was not happy. Landmarks should be good though.
Rich
Yeah, Certanteed continues to sell cr*p in the midwest, and not providing anything worthwhile in terms of warranty coverage. There's a law firm in Minneapolis that is pursuing class action.HALUNEN & ASSOCIATES
220 South Sixth Street
Suite 2000
Minneapolis, MN 55402
p. 612.605.4098
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
Thanks for the comments. When asked about the 15 vs 30 lbs the roofer said the 30 is used more for slate roofs, but he could use the 30 if I wanted to pay more.
Thanks
Barney<!----><!----><!---->
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Its not the destination, but the integrity of the journey.<!----><!---->
Barney
I figure it would cost about $50-60 more for 30 lb..
Tar paper is just a divorcing membrane between the the wood and the shingles. and in the event that you have a blow off it provides protection until you can get it repaired.
I would view the use of 15 lb as an indicator of someone using the lowest cost materials. In my book saving money on materials is usually not a good route to take.
With tear off and shingling the cost of labor is usually more than the cost of materials. Saving $200 on materials on a 5K to 10K job is not smart .
Buying 40 year shingles may or may not make sense. Only time and your current wallet can prove out that decision.
Anyway if he is using cheap tarpaper as a standard what else is he using as as cost cutting standard?
You have to be the one to read him. Look at his other work. The quality of a roof in in the flashings and the care that is taken with the nailing. Very seldom do shingles leak in the field.
Rich
Last I khew all the shingle man. still accept 15lb as underlayment.
I do like the new shingle unlayments.
I agree, the quality of the flashing is mor important. I also thing how the valleys are done is also important.
frammer52
You are right about valleys. Double ditto. I was in a hurry and lumped velley with flashing.
I always use an open metal valley because I have repair too many leaking closed valleys.
Closed valleys hold water longer, are the last part of the roof to dry out and the 1st to start showing their age.
I don't like 15 lb primarly for my safety on the roof. It tears too easily on any pitch over 4/12. When I put my somewhere I want it to stay.
All papers will tear with enough pressure and heat. I just like to hedge my chances and stay away from 15 lb. cost isn't worth it for the HO or me.
But hey, I live in Iowa what do I know. LOL
Rich
You probably know a lot, but I wouldn't use that as a qualifying factor on whether a cont. is good or not.
I have had the oposite experience to you, more problems with open valleys as opposed to closed. I feal either are good if done properly.
A closed valley does not hold h2o, shingles are waterproof.
I think you should say I like open valleys bcause the h3o leaves the roof rapidly.
Again either works well when installed properly.
It appears there are fewer problems when people use plenty of ice and h2o shield. I just had my roof done after 25+ years with a open valley.
Where were the leaks? in the valleys.
I like closed when ice&h2o barrier, layer of metal, then the shingles.
each to their own!
What's h3o, acid rain?
want some?
Hydronium.....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
leftisright
h3o is a droid.
Can you tell I saw some Star Wars last night.
Rich
That was C3po watched that again the other night, the "remade" version where Lucas put in the special effects that didn't exist when the movie was first made. Was very obvious where stuff was spliced in, but still a great movie.
Most here sell 30#, will do 15# if you ask.
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
Thank you for the comments. I'm going to go with the 30lbs the price difference is nothing.
The shingles themselves are Timerbline 30 year Prestique. Pretty sure I just spelled that wrong.
Samples and other posts have indicated these are pretty good shingles.
The guy is more than willing to do whatever I ask of him. He's done a lot of work around the neighborhood and no complaints. My arch. actually recommended him.
Barney<!----><!----><!---->
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Its not the destination, but the integrity of the journey.<!----><!---->
Barney,
A word to the wise.... Just because you request 30lb doesn't mean you're getting 30lb...
In 1987, I had a new roof bid. The home is a 1958 stone house with 1x6 lumber for the decking. When the supplies arrived, I saw that 15lb was delivered. I called and the rolls were exchanged to 30lb. The roof was put on while we both were at work....A really bad hail storm in 1993 caused a new roof. When the insurance adjuster pulled up the shingles to see that I wanted the same 30lb felt, he came down with several samples from around the roof perimeter...all was 15lb.
All I got from the adjuster was an amount that included 15lb felt...a double kick in the pants for me...
Check on your Roofer's work....
Bill
I'm planning on being home the day this happens.I'll be sure to check the supplies prior to installation.
Barney<!----><!----><!---->
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Its not the destination, but the integrity of the journey.<!----><!---->
Timbertech. I second what Dan said. Some bad stuff on Certainteed of late around these parts.
Thank you. I have to say this place is a GREAT source of information, guidance, and conversation.
I appreciate the advice.
ThanksBarney
Barney,
i am not familiar with timbertech
but i use a lot of Certainteed shingles---specifically the Landmark product line.
certainteed has had a problem with one specific product line( I can't remember which-Horizon-or New Horizon ?)
at any rate-- I wouldn't rule out certainteed
and- i would also look at the GAF/Elk product line.
Best bang for your buck?- concentrate on choosing the RIGHT contractor-and listen to HIS recommendations for YOUR locale--and pin him down on WHY, specifically he is recommending a certain product.
Best wishes,
stephen
The problem with me is that Certainteed continued to sell the defective shingles for five years after the problem became obvious. And they treated their customers shabbily. Not a company I ever want to deal with again.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Dan,
i can see your reasoning
however-- I can tell you similar stories about IKO
similar stories about Owens Corning, etc.
Regaurding certainteed
the defective product---is NOT one I would have ever sold to our customers-THAT specific shingle was used in this area almost exclusively as a builders grade model-- the dimensional effect it was meant to duplicate--was not as good as true dimensional shingles-and there was a negligible price difference. in short-- if I exclude all shingle manufacturers who have ever screwed their customers- i would be out of the roofing business.
Instead I use primarily 2 lines that I personally have never had a problem with--and that work well in this area for me.Certainteed fills that bill--as does Elk.
stephen
The shingle was a step up from builder's grade. The multi-layer shingles available at the time were too thick and wouldn't have looked right on a 4/12 roof.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Thank you for the advice. Problem is who do you trust when it comes to the guy climbing up there to do the job?
I've seen so many horror stories of rip offs and cheats. Makes you sort of concerned.
I usually go by word of mouth and talk to people about their experience.
Had one guy out the other day that told me he need to replace all of my new gutters because it would cost more for him to put them back up. They aren't even close to a year old yet.
ThanksBarney
Barney--RE: the guttersin this area I can get seamless gutters installed for $2.25-$2.50/foot.about $1.10 of that is the actual gutterIf I add up the cost of having one of our guys gently remove the gutter--place it in the yard--and later RE-install the gutter-----well it IS actually cheaper to simply hang new.--plus the old gutter will almost certainley be damaged in some way much better to not remove the gutter in the first place
second choice is to tear off the gutters-scrap them out-and have new ones installedremoving and re-installing---is a distant,Distant 3rd choice.
the fact that your gutters are only one year old----does nothing for the economics of my costs.Best wishes.
stephen
Its good to get a neutral opinion of the situation. The guy just really rubbed me the wrong way.
I don't mind when someone explains the why's of doing something. I don't take kindly to someone coming across arogant like he did.
ThanksBarney
Has anyone ever heard/used a brand of shingles called Tamko. Buddy of mine just got an estimate that spec out Tamko Heritage Series for the shingles.
Thoughts?
yes and have used not bad
Thanks. Appreciate the info.
"I don't take kindly to someone coming across arogant like he did."It sounds like you ran into another typical contractor that hasn't bothered to learn the secrets of selling and negotiating LOL! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Edited 3/25/2008 11:12 am by Jim_Allen
Exactly. Considering I negotiate reimbursement contracts on a daily basis I understand the give and take. Will never agree to a give me all I want deal.
There's explaining and then there is "attitude negotiations".
Haz is the kind of guy that can explain without sounding like he has a bad attitude about it. He's factual and makes his decisions logically. I'd buy from him anyday even if he was higher priced than most other guys. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Exactly, that's just the way I read his email. Too bad the guy that came out to do the estimate didn't take "Interpersonal Skills 101" prior to starting his business.
I'm a firm believer that people will be willing to accept the price for a job when it is explained in a way that they don't feel like they are getting the "business" from someone.
Hazlett
They had problems with the the Classic Horizon (tabs cut in the shingle) and with New Horizon (same shingle no tabs cut out).
And theyalso had problems with the Hallmark shingle (tiger striping). I saw two last year that were 14 years old and shot. Hallmark was a heavy shingle like 375lb. It should have lasted longer than that. And they both got some money out of the company. 1/2 the cost of the orginal shingles, big deal.
I have a ton of Certainteed's 3 tab 30 year asphalt shingles out there.
I like the Landmark shingle and I think Certainteed is a good company.
I like the Owen-Corning Duration shingle. That plastic strip for nailing is very tough. Almost impossible to overnail or punch it through.
Most shingle failures are because of bad application. Most leaks are at flashings. (for the OP)
Get a contractor you can get along with and Hazlett gave you good advice.
Rich
Cargin- i am familiar with the horizon-and the new horizon-- i am not familiar with the Hallmark line- it may not have been marketed in this area--or, frankly at that time i used almost exclusively ELK.
in this area- the horizon and New horizon seem to have been used on something between a tract type house and slightly above----- in contrast to DanH observation-here they were generally used on 8/12 pitch and above------ very little besides garages built here with a 4/12 in the last 20 years !I do no--that I never had a customer request those material because there were cost sompetitive product-which looked MUCH better available at the time.IKO--- had a similar problem--- i have a condo developement that i have been replacing roofs on for the last 10-12 years. thank goodness for IKO-replacing those roofs for the condo board--put my kids through catholic high school and most of Grade school!!!!!!!!Stephen
The Hallmark was the most godawful ugly asphalt shingle ever made, IMHO. As Cargin said, they looked like they had tiger stripes (supposed to look like woodgrain is my guess). Only installed them once and that was on a takeover job that the original GC got fired from. The materials were on site before we arrived.
The Horizon is still made (my guys installed some on an addition a couple of months ago), so I don't understand what DanH is talking about. They never quit making them as far as I know. I'm not defending Certainteed, but the Horizon always looked to me like a product that was trying to similate something more expensive than it was. And apparently, it didn't work out.
You know, since I started typing this, I realized that the thing I dislike about Certainteed is their tendancy to try and improve on the 3 tab (Horizon, Independence, Hallmark) instead of embracing the laminate like everyone else did. I think the Independence is a good looking product, but you still have to bond them.http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
seeyou
Fifteen years ago the Hallmark was marketed to the high end homes in our area. Very heavy shingle with no sealant necessary.
I'm pretty sure the old ones were organic.
They just didn't last.
Rich
Very heavy shingle with no sealant necessary.
I'm pretty sure the old ones were organic.
I don't remember them being that heavy, but they were kind of thick making me agree with the organic sumation. But, I only touched them once and that was at least 15 years ago. They never casught on (luckily it seems) around here.http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
I can't remember the name of the problem shingle, but it wasn't Horizon. Though Horizons may have been a problem as well.
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
DanH
The classic Horison and the New Horizon had a slightly elevated area that was a different color and was a different tar. It crackled real bad.
Not the whole shingle, just the raised part.
It's too bad I liked the flat look of the shingle and the color combinations.
Rich
The shingles (Sealdon, not Horizon) we had curled severely. The Horizons apparently crack and come apart as you describe. Two different problems.
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
DanH
I have a bunch of the Sealdon 30 yr out there.
I hope I got the good ones.
I drive by some of them every day. No problems yet.
Rich
Barney.. Certainteed is the only one we sell
we sell a lot of Landmark
and a lot of Hatteras... we've never hada bad shingle from them
Certainteed expands their market by buying out regional mfr's ( they bought Bird in New England )
and adopting the new company's best sellers... then they slowly eliminate the dogs.
Landmark, Hatteras, Grand Manor, XT-30's... etc... these all get rave reviews
i would think the complaints come from new acquisitions and factory's that have not got the Certainteed treatment yet
but , me... I've been pretty exclusive Certainteed for at least 10 yearsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
As always you are extremely helpful. I actually has asked one of the roofers to give me an estimate using the Hatterus shingle. I'll have to share it with you when it comes in.
I wish you built houses in NJ. LOL!!
Except that they continued to sell the bad shingles at least 5 years after it was obvious they had a problem. Not in my view particularly ethical behavior.
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
Mike
I have always wanted to use that Hatteras shingle. It looks sharp in the brochure. Never seen them around here.
They are not a very heavy shingle (235 lbs) but they are 40 year and have a 110 mph rating because of a double sealant strip.
Rich
8" exposure on the Hatteras.... nice shingle to work withanybody besides me installed the Shangle ( Independence ) ?it's ok... but the Landmark stole it's market hereMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike
I installed them once about 8 years ago. No sealant. Very rough appearance.
Heavy 300lbs.
Alot of random tabs some narrow like 2".
I would use the heavier Landmark if I wanted a heavy shingle.
From what I have read Certainteed is one of the most aggressive companies for testing their shingle products.
That said they have some duds out there.
My local choices are Certainteed and Owens-Corning. The warehouse handling of the Certainteed is usually better than the OC. The bundles arrive in better shape.
Rich
yes , Independence Shangle was a peculiar shingleLandmark got to our area right after that jobi like the hatteras, but most of my customers now choose the LandmarkMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
mike-- i used the independence shangle 2-3 times at customer requestAt that time the elk Prestique line was already here-but dimensionals had not yet taken the market--for me-3 tabs were 90% of my sales-Elks 10%
with-in very few years that ratio reversed itself--and at this point i maybe do 1 roof with 3-tabs a yearat this point-- if a customer wanted the shangle--- I would probably turn down the job.
stephen
Alot of random tabs some narrow like 2".
The Independence is a heavy 3 tab shingle with random 2"-3" strips applied to the face. It's a very popular product in my neck of the woods. And a good looking product. But I'm not real fond of installing them (on steep roofs) because we're spoiled from laying laminated dimensionals and the bond lines slow us down.
I'm warming up to the Duration line. Product costs a little more, but with the wider nailing "sweet spot", production goes up.http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
seeyou
Whenever I hear the machine gun nailers installing a roof i know the customer is getting a bad job.
When I read the package the nailing area is about 5/8" wide.
I don't care who you are you can't nail fast and good and hit that 5/8" sweet spot.
There's lots of ways to speed up shingling and nailing fast isn't one of them.
Plus when you are nailing fast you aren't looking real close at how well your nails are being set.
The Duration has worked well for us.
In a couple of years that will be Owen-Cornings flagship shingle and the Oakridge will be phased out. My opinion.
Rich
I don't care who you are you can't nail fast and good and hit that 5/8" sweet spot.
But, the nailing schedule is 4 nails per shingle. I have my guys shoot at least 6 nails per shingle. I figure better than half will hit the sweet spot.
The Oakridge is about gone. 4 colors available. I give it a year.http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
Cargin------
I haven't used the Duration shingle--and there is a O.C. plant maybe 30 minutes from my house------
the Certainteed Landmark now has an expanded Nail zone-much easier to hit
BUT--- to get the higher wind ratings---you must 6 nail in the same 5/8" area( right in the double lamination)
that's what we shoot for on ALL of themwith the expanded nail zone in effect-- I am now more concerned about proper depth of drive than nail placement since every shingle is getting 6-7 nailsstephen
Steve
you must 6 nail in the same 5/8" area( right in the double lamination)
My comment is that most shingles are not getting nailed in the double lamination by speed nailers.
I am now more concerned about proper depth of drive than nail placement since every shingle is getting 6-7 nails
The plastic strip on the Duration is almost impossible to over nail.
I believe most blow offs occur because of poorly driven nails, either too deep or proud of the surface. Or very cheap shingles.
Sounds like you run a good outfit.
Rich
I believe most blow offs occur because of poorly driven nails, either too deep or proud of the surface. Or very cheap shingles.
We have very few blow-offs, but the majority of ours are GAF shingles which don't seem to seal as well as the other brands.
Oakridges are almost impossible to get apart for repairs. I'm curious about the seal on the Durations. Hoping they're not quite as sticky as the Oakridge line. It's hard to find a stopping point if you need to dig into them for some reason.http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
seeyou
You are right on the OC sealing. Hot days you can peel and stick. LOL
Durations stick just as quickly. Same sealant.
Rich
Duration shingles are the cat's a$$ IMHOJohn Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
Svenny
I agree.
Rich
Cargin,
the house next door to the one i am currently roofing---has duration shingles going on it( by somebody else-looks like a very bad DIY job-- I gotta take a picture of the skylight install!!!!) i haven't previously touched a duration shingle--but because of this thread I wandered over to examine some up close.the adhesive seal between the laminations is impresive-spectacularly soI am less enthusiastic about the continuous bead of sealant-for the sealdown strip---a continuous bead can actually cause leaks in some situations.
physically-the shingle is solidly impressive------ but you know what--aethestically-- i don't like it. just my impression--but the shadow line isn't quite right---a little Garish?---just my opinion--but it is much to bold to imply a shadow.
I will have to look at it in other colors and see how THOSE look---but the color I saw yesterday--has no "zen"---is not calm enough for me.
stephen
I've been using Certainteed in all my homes in NC for over twenty years with no complaints whatsoever. It's still my shingle of choice.
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"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."