I’ve got some tapered porch columns that I’d like to shingle with cedar. I’d like to do them without corner boards, but have never done it, and have some questions:
Are the shingles typically mitered?
Are the corners fastened, and how?
I’d appreciate any other tips or techniques to keep it from looking like a hack job<G>
Thanks
Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy, Winterlude by the telephone wire, Winterlude, it’s makin’ me lazy, Come on, sit by the logs in the fire. The moonlight reflects from the window Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand. Come out tonight, ev’rything will be tight, Winterlude, this dude thinks you’re grand.
Replies
Never done one Holly but I've mitred plenty of cedar, which is very splintery.
I'd butt them.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Butting was my original plan, just didn't want to totally hack it up.Should I nail the corner to keep the shingle from cupping? Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
Alternately weave the lapped corners. One has the south face longer than the east and the next has the east longer than the south.
Block plane is all ya need really.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
So go around the column with one row, then run the next row the opposite direction?Lotta tapers, I was just going to make a little taper jig for the table saw, sit it right next to the columns... Roy Underhill tapes his show in town, don't want to give him too much competition<G> Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
Sorta like that. Piffin and Mike Smith have described or posted pics of the method they use.
A few issues back in FHB or JLC someone showed how to pre-assemble the corners, tapered jig wise.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
You mean it isn't really like that? ut oh!
Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
I'm sure you can figure it out..LOL
If not strip the bark off a shagbark hickory tree and nail that up..looks about the same after a few yrs.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
I don't waste shagbark on building, that's grillin' goods... Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
The hardest thing to learn is that you have to "double down" on the corners...I can't even explain it but when you get a few courses up and realize your corner laps aren't alternating you'll curse and throw something.
Then you'll think you've got the hang of it, get a few courses up, and realize your corners didn't lap right again.
Like I said, I can't explain it, but I don't think I've seen a newbie do it right yet and I still mess it up on occasion.
Sphere knows what I'm talking about.
Yeah, I do and can't explain it either. Jsut showing someone once usually covers it.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
You must have worked with sharper tacks than I
Oh, I've had my share of dense ones too. I worked with one toker who could forget how to sharpen a pencil once he turned around and walked away.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
"...grillin' goods"? Did somebody say "grillin' goods"?I'll eat your peaches, mam. I LOVE peaches!
Ya know, I've been thinking about you... wonderin' if I should send you a box of buggy old hickory bark... maybe it's the bugs that make the smoke, I don't know?Think it'll slide through homeland security? Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
You're really building my confidence up, and, these shingles ain't cheap.I knew there was some trick to it, and Sphere's explanation really helped, not<G>The columns are 10 1/2" square at the base, 8 1/2" at the top, 58" tall.Say I could run 1 shingle on a side (I know I won't).Would I run 4 shingles all the same width and taper clockwise around the column, overlapping , say, the left hand side?Then run 4 more same sized counter-clockwise, and overlapping on the right hand side.Any more complicated than that, I'm gonna have to go with azek<G>Also, is there any fastening at the corners? I know I've seen it somewhere, but don't know if it's best practice.Shoot, I'm going to have to ask a master carpenter...LOL Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
I'm only good at baiting, but I will tell you...just go ahead and try it. You'll be fine.
What you want to do is trim each corner shingle flush with its substrate. I use a knife, others use a block plane or even a laminate trimmer.
Piffin let on a great tip for connecting corners. Traditionally a 4d nail can be used close to the bottom to hold things together, but it looks...not good. Piffin uses a dab of PL Premium (duct tape of the adhesive world). I've used it on a couple jobs now, works great.
Hard to see here but maybe you can make out how each course is overlapping the one below it:
View Image
You almost have your plan right. Instead of "overlapping , say, the left hand side?", plan on getting the shingle flush with whatever is below it (plywood, housewrap, another shingle.)
For a column like yours I wouldn't go around and around, but do both sides of one face, then both sides of the adjacent face. That's just me though. 'Round and 'round works too.
In fact, to avoid the "double down" problem, what you might do is go 'round and round, but twice in each direction. Two courses to the right, two courses to the left, planing or cutting the corner shingles flush with whatever's underneath them each time.
If you switch directions with each course, your overlaps will stack up instead of alternating. Probably would shed water just fine but it's not how it's done.
Thanks, thanks, thanks... and ditto for the pl pass-a-long...
Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
Lots easier to wrap with aluminum, or vinyl.
I'm betting the taper would really make that look classy LOL Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
Maybe some of that sand texture paint would even it up OK.
The last house redo on "This Old House" had spot showing that very thing being done .
Geez. Lots here seem to know how to do it but not how to explain it.
You have to complete each course all the way around before going up to the next.
Nail a starter course at the bottom and double up on that one, offsetting the joints by at least 1", and trimming by whatever method (I use a block plane) the corner overlaps. If a corner lap pulls away, I use a pneumatic pin nailer to bring it back tight.
Each successive course starts by flush covering the last corner-lapped shingle, and then corner-lapping that one .
The easiest (and best looking IMHO) way is to shingle in this order:
This is what they mean by doubling up. Each course starts with the same side of the corner just completed.
[edited for greater clarity]
View Image
Solar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Edited 3/11/2008 12:55 pm ET by Riversong
"Geez. Lots here seem to know how to do it but not how to explain it."LOL! I was expecting a very clear, understandable set of instructions. There wasn't anything in there that was any clearer than the first two dozen posts LOL!I guess I'd not try to teach anyone since all ya'll pros cant do it. I'd just tell my guys that if the joints line up, to change them. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
<G>
That's the only way I've found to teach guys. I show them how to do it, they screw it up, I make them redo it...it really isn't hard but it is hard to explain.
snort...
look at each shingle... it has a natural curve to it
flip it so you get a clamping action when you fasten it
look at the grain.... you will be cutting either with the grain or across it
cut your curves with the grain ... not across... if you cut across you will get a lot of pieces falling off in the comming years
develop a technique that doesn't need any nails thru the butts to close the corner
if you put nails ( or pins ) thru the butts , they will develop into splits in the comming years
watch your build up... the shingles should all be in the same plane across their face, this is much easier to say than do.. the tendency is to build a corner that is dished
on a column it will end up with all of the faces being concave
i've seen peole use routers, block planes, shingling hatchets ( razor sharp ), chisels
my favorite is a small diameter skill saw... like a 5" ... my favorite it the Porter Cable 4" trim saw
the thing about columns is they start at the base... but you don't want your shingle
butts in contact with flat surfaces ... they will soak up a lot of water thru capillary action
we usually wrap the base with black alum coil stock , then hold our first course up 3/4" so it can drip... in appearance it just looks like a nice neat shadow line
put on your starter course, then your first course goes on in the opposite sequence so the shingle corners will lap
on your 2d course, follow the original sequence, so the corners will lap
Mike was alluding to this with his "doubler" reference... the underlap is in the same plane as the course below so the overlap will actually overlaps in
after you get up about three courses the shingles and curves will become very regular, now you can make a pattern... hold a nice wide shingle in the exact location , with it's butt level, and the sides plumb
trace the curve of the corner, cut out your pattern.... all your shingles can now be traced and ct from this pattern
don't use any "barn doors" ( anything over say 8" ).. they will cup and split,
if you use a barn door , use three nails with one towards the center.... ASSUME the shingle WILL split where the center nail is...if not now... then a year from now
so just keep the nail in your stagger pattern... all joints ( stagger pattern ) should offset by about 2" for good appearance and good weather tightness
all corners generally start at the corners, they don't end there... in production work , you usually have the good installer run the corners and the other guys fill in the fields ... everyone works from the same set of "story Poles" and you should snap a reference line to set your story pole from column to column
use only R&R shingles if you want crisp lines and good production.. R&R ( resquared & rebutted ) come in boxes..... not bundles
red cedar is a whole different animal that white cedars, red cedars are formal, white cedars are like nailing potatoe chips...
sidewall with no finish coat ... expect 30 years with reds, 20 years with whites... or.. if you keep them stained or painted, then both will last forever
if you are going to stain or paint.. get factory finish primed or factory finish stained
ues only hot dipped galv shingle nails ( 4d box , 5d box for reds... 3 1/2 d HD shingle nail for whites )
any exposed nail should be SS...... many court cases have been won by homeowners who sued the installer for the stains that rusty nails make on cedar productsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
lay out your coursing so you know how you are going to end it... they should tuck under a frieze at the top.... not butt to a frieze.. the build up can amount to 1" or even 1 1/4" so you have to know how much to space your frieze off the sheathing
for underlayment.... we like 15lb. felt ... 30 lb is good too
ever shingle in a corner gets three nails.... two located one inch above the next course line... and one near the outside about 1/2 way between the bottom nails and the top of the shingle
this is the clamping nail.... you can hand nail or gun nail.. but the shingle has to be pushed into contact with your hand so you don't bridge
you can buy true HD Galv shingle nails for your guns from Maize
shingle nails should be 1/2" in from each edge, and 1" above the course line for the next course... if you do this you will get maximum clamping action and never "show" a nail
the outside nail on the corner has to be as far out as posssible but still get into good meat.... practise
once you set your next course line.. drag it around with your level, you can then tack a shingle sideways with a couple finish nails or a couple box nails... and lay your course butts on this shingle rest.. it will help in planing your stagger, your corner tracing.... and your nailing... make sure you keep the shingles plumb and the butts level or you will "stair step " the butts...
hey... are we having fun yet ?
oh yeah..... if you read the books they'll tell you a square a man a day.... good luck with thatMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
if you use a barn door , use three nails with one towards the center.... ASSUME the shingle WILL split where the center nail is...if not now... then a year from now
No sense in creating a split. Either cut down wide shingles (we call them "bedsheets") or use the double center nail technique below (then it will split between the two)
so just keep the nail in your stagger pattern... all joints ( stagger pattern ) should offset by about 2"
1½" is the industry standard stagger (see below), but on a narrow column this might not be possible, so even 1" is OK.
SHINGLE SPECS <!----><!----><!---->
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Fastener selection: Use hot-dip galvanized, stainless steel, or aluminum — not electrogalvanized — fasteners, especially in coastal areas. Stainless staples or nails eliminate the chances of streaking. <!----><!---->
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Staples (16 gauge with 7/16-inch to 1/2-inch crown) and nails (box type with blunt points) are both acceptable. The fastener must penetrate through the shingles, vent screen (if any), and all the way through the sheathing. <!----><!---->
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Fastener location: Place two fasteners per shingle about 1 inch above the overlying course line and 3/4 inch in from each edge. If the shingles are wider than 10 inches (Cedar Shake & Shingle Bureau) or 8 inches (IRC), apply an additional pair of fasteners spaced 1 inch apart near the middle of the shingle. Orient the pair of fasteners so the 1-inch space between them is not within 1 1/2 inches of a shingle joint below. <!----><!---->
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Keyway spacing: When shingles are wet or green when applied to the wall, it's okay to butt the shingles edges together. Dry shingles must be spaced apart to prevent buckling when they absorb moisture and swell. As a rule of thumb, space shingles up to 6 inches wide with a 1/8-inch keyway, space shingles that are between 6 and 9 inches wide 3/16 inch apart, space shingles wider than 9 inches 1/4 inch apart. <!----><!---->
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Joint offset: Joints in successive shingle courses must be offset by a minimum of 1½” (IRC and CSSB). Keep in mind that if there are any defects in the top lap of a shingle, you should space joints 1½“ away from the defect.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
you're right ... 30 years ago i actually thought they knew what they were talking about
but they don't
firinstance... does that refer to roofing or sidewall ? don't know ... don't care
2" stagger looks better
and if you're using R&R's there is no such thing as green or wet
so tell me again about pinning your butts Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Actually to all,Very nice work, I think I get it... and all y'all contributed to my epiphany... well, except for Jim and his muck rake<G>And Riversong, I don't know how you knew I am left-handed, eerie, huh?...and since you gave me some advice, I'll share some with you: if you lose that condescending know-it-all attitude you might make some friends here.So thanks for all taking the time to explain... hope I can remember this stuff until Thursday! Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
since you gave me some advice, I'll share some with you: if you lose that condescending know-it-all attitude you might make some friends here.
I'm not interested in "making friends", particularly among those who insist on giving Ann Landers advice on a building forum.
Sorry I helped out.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Well, you're maintaining your agenda, Ann... Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
Edited 3/11/2008 7:20 pm ET by Snort
ever shingle in a corner gets three nails.... two located one inch above the next course line... and one near the outside about 1/2 way between the bottom nails and the top of the shingle
Mikey learned me something today! I've never seen that, but I can see how that would seriously help with the almost-inevitable corner growth phenomenon.
That picture I posted of the yellow flared corner--we pinned the butts. Middle of winter and even with an hour in a steamer we just couldn't get them to lay right. A smear of PL on the back and a few pins, good to go.
They are rusting a bit but they won't for long--they'll be gone!
30 years ago i actually thought they knew what they were talking about
but they don't
By "them", I assume you're refering to the Cedar Shake & Shingle Bureau.
2" stagger looks better
Sure, if you're using 6" and wider. But since many shingle bundles include 3" and 4" shingles, a 2" stagger doesn't work.
and if you're using R&R's there is no such thing as green or wet
R&R doesn't make a bundle of shingles any drier. It's all in where they're stored at the yard.
so tell me again about pinning your butts
If you use 2nd clears, as most do in New England (authentic Cape Cod siding), you can't always keep the butts from "flying", regardless of which way the heart is facing.
But, if you know your craft, you can still do a beautiful job:
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Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Edited 3/11/2008 8:33 pm ET by Riversong
BlueWould it help if a coffeecup from Dunkin Donuts was involved?
Barry E-Remodeler
LOL That's a pretty good analogy! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I knew I shoulda subbed this out to someone from the big city... we got no dunkin donuts! Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.