I hope I hear others do this on occasion.
One of the things we seem to do for the rich and shameless is interior painting. They typically have high ceilings and a lot of the local painters don’t like them.
in March I got a call from a local vet (my vet to boot) and his wife wanted wall paper removed from the dining room, open stairs and entry way, walls prepped and painted.
I learned a long time ago, the hard way, to not flat price wall paper removal. You simply cannot tell what you will run into. I always do removal by the hour. But she allowed me to test a section so I gave a price. At the last minute she said also include the master bath for removal of paper only as she wanted to do some paint and stencilling in there. I glanced at the room and figured from what I had seen 4 hours labor.
The paint and paper removal went fine. Not great but about what I figured. No problem and they love the work. The xxxx bathroom has taken 14 man hours so far and I will probably have another 4-5 in it today. We have used our steamer, mud, water, nothing does it. It all comes off in 2 inch pieces and then have to clean the walls. Never seen anything like it. (well ok, once, and that was the time I swore off doing removal on a flat price) Again…..I will never flat price wall paper removal again. Aaaarrrrgggghhhhh!!!!!! DanT
Replies
All I can say is, been there done that, and I really feel your pain.
Wallpaper sux. Falls off when you want it up, sticks when you want it down.
Been there. Done that.
One thing to keep in mind when pricing wallpaper removal in Bathrooms and Kitchens is that they usually have a vinyl component to them.. This prevents water from soaking in and getting at the glue.
Many times, prior to applying water we try to peel off the top decorative/ print layer of thin vinyl. The paper backing is then all that is left to remove. The vinyl can peel of in large sheets IF you only peel the vinyl. If you are too aggressive and grab the paper backing too - fugedaboudit!
Frankie
from Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas
been there done that..bathrooms are a pain
View ImageView Image
I hate the paste crap that always seems to get all over and dries nice and crusty on your hands.
Like Fankie said, I always try to peal off the face layer if possible, Soak it with Diff solution, wait 15 min, soak it again wait another 15 min, and then keep it moist while pulling it off.
The best tool I've been able to find is a cheap 6" plastic putty knife and round the corners with sandpaper before starting. I think I read that tip here years back. It doesn't gouge the drywall as much and comes off relatively clean in 6" swatches.
Then a final cleaning with 50/50 Diff solution and a sponge.
Man I hate wall paper
Monday I had the the PERFECT stripping job.It was stripable paper on a painted wall.Pulled off the surface layer and in general it came off in big pieces rather than bits and pieces.Then sprayed the backing and after a minute or two it came off in big pieces.Not one little bit of torn DW. But I there where a number of paint chips, picture holes and older damage under the WP that needed minor repair.The week before I had strip one where new wall paper was put over old and it was badly done.Under it was painted paper, painted border, and painted wall. Also new patches in the old paper. And patches in the old paper that had been done before the paint.The new layer was stripable and came off eazy.Found that the old WP was also stripable and it came off fairly easy.The real problem was I never could tell if which surface I was on and if what I was workinig on was had more WP under it or not. And of course all of the places where there where repairs over torn WP glued the edges down so I had a lot of repair work on that one after got it off.Also had to feather out the ridge the the paint had left between the painted and papered part of the wall.
On average, it takes me about a day to steam wallpaper off the average bathroom. If it's a big room then two to three days . Don't want to reveal my true stupidity but what is this Diff solution stuff y'all is a talking about? If I could find something so that I could avoid this time eating/wasting steam method I'd do it in a second. I've had it with punching little holes and soaking a wall only to meet defeat and then having to follow it up with steam, it truly is something that will humble even the most proud in character. It's hot, it's humid and I feel like a beaten man for days afterward.
Diff is a solvent that is sold and mixed with water for lossening wallpaper glue.
I can not compare it to steaming though, I've never tried using a steamer to remove wall paper.
I have not used Diff, but I have tried the SW product and from 1/2 dozen different jobs it does not seem to work much better than plain water. And the SW product will stain ceilings.I used a steamer on one job that scoring and water, WP remover, and soap was not making much headway. It still came off slowly as other that I had just used water on. And it still got into the DW and did as much damage.
Regular wallpaper paste is protein based (originally wheat paste I think). Anyway, some enzymes make the paste come 'un-glued', which is what DIF is. We've done removal a bunch of different ways in our houses, and I don't like the steamer. For the non-vinyl type paper DIF helps some. But plain hot water (as hot as you can stand it) works pretty well. I get the bulk of the paper off of an area, and then go back and re-soak the bits and pieces. I like to use a long handled 4" putty knife just because it helps keep the paper off my hands.If you have glue left on the wall after that, add some white vinegar to the hot water and wipe off with a sponge. Never try to paint over wallpaper paste, at least not with water based paints.
Once had success with a blow torch. Otherwise I used to give a price for laminating sheetrock over the walls.
"
Once had success with a blow torch. Otherwise I used to give a price for laminating sheetrock over the walls.
"
Got done today. Sand paper made it go better. Still was a bitch and tore up the walls some. They are really happy as they had done a room before and thought it might be the same. And they got a great deal. About 8 bucks an hour.
The big issue to me all along is I let myself get sucked into a firm price (again) and got burned. Totally my fault. I just hate admitting it and living with it. Oh well.
I do recomend laminating most of the time. But this house is 8 years old. The blow torch idea right now sounds like it has possibilities. DanT
Given the looks of your new shop, I'm not crying for you :~)There are few things worse than stripping wallpaper though. Glad you got done before the weekend, not something you want to deal with Monday morning.
I believe I would ask for more money. Unless I made out really well on the other paper I'd stripped. If they say no they say no, no hard feelings but I gotta ask. Anytime I'm afraid there might be trouble I always bring it up ahead of time anyway. If somebody tries to make thier problems mine I usually don't want to work for em..
Edited 5/20/2006 7:46 am ET by TMO
If I had realized the there would be a problem I would have made my quote to match. I misread it, quoted a flat price, and left myself wide open for what I got. My fault, not theirs. No way I would have asked for more since it was my mis read. Even if I did it for .50 an hour. If it was something I couldn't see or I had been smart enough to quote it T&M that would be different. DanT
I call that "relearn a lesson I already knew" ...
and I find myself relearning all the time!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
You are a better man than me. I feel like if I run into trouble I didn't bid I owe it to my family and myself to ask for a few dollars more. Again if they say no I'm not pizzed I'm just bummed and I will finish my project to the minutest detail.
I asked for whats right thats all. Course if my wallet gets fat cause I overbid I do do a give back type thing as well. I explain the cra p outta each step though. Seems to work with my regulars not so much with new peopple though( or those tirekickers)
Edited 5/20/2006 11:30 pm ET by TMO
"I feel like if I run into trouble I didn't bid I owe it to my family and myself to ask for a few dollars more"
keep doing that and you'll never learn to bid right.
Gotta eat a few every now and then to stay on top of the bidding game.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Believe me when I tell you I've ate plenty. If there were calories in eating bids......
Still I gotta ask It could go something like this,
"Hey that frreaky azz wallpaper in your bathroom cost me 12 f'in hours of my life I'll never get back. If you don't toss me some cash tiny tim won't get no new shoes So wadda ya say?"
or....
"My Mizuno MP 60s got rusty cause of that hell hole you call a bathroom hows about tossing me a couple of greens fees at the local 18 so I can get a piece of my life back?"
Just by way of example..... I got a million of em.
;)
I asked for whats right thats all.
If you give a client a fixed price bid with no exclusions or conditions, "what's right" is to do the job for that fixed price.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I think sticking to the price given is the professional thing to do in terms of reputation. And I think it pays off in the end. This lady knew it went rough and thanked us over and over. Then asked if we would replace her front door. I gave her a price, on the high side since I was in that mood. No problem, when can you get here? So it comes around. She said she really appeciated someone who stuck with the job, the quality and someone she could trust and she was going to tell everyone she knew. So it was worth it. It just kill my ego to do dumb sh*t over again. DanT
Manure occureth.
Party your Tipi off! Aug 18th,19th &20th Ask for details.
I thought about giving a lesson on it here but thought na .
I simply wish I had been stopping by for a visit bout then to help ya out. On the other hand I coulda used you several times and still could . Thus its still a humbling experience to come here.
Weve all been there . There are about a million subjects here simalar to this one . Dont feel like the lone ranger for you are in a tribe here.
Tim
I respect everybodies opinion that you would fix the probllem for free and I have done the same, plenty. I just don't anymore.
It is my opinion that you need to ask for more money if you run into a problem. A hidden fault isn't my problem even if I sorta feel like there's a chance I shoulda caught it.
How about if you strip a roof and you find rotted rafters and roof boards do you replace them for free?
One other thing I don't and won't do is bid my next piece of work for a customer high because the last piece went rough. If I asked for more money because a piece of a project had unforeseen problems and get compensated then I bid my usual price, If I don't get compensated then I usually say I am too busy to get to that new piece of work and move on.
So I guess, Jon, there are always exclusions and conditions and thats whats right, be they stated clearly or implied, IMO.
Edited 5/22/2006 6:35 am ET by TMO
"It is my opinion that you need to ask for more money if you run into a problem. A hidden fault isn't my problem even if I sorta feel like there's a chance I shoulda caught it.How about if you strip a roof and you find rotted rafters and roof boards do you replace them for free? "COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CASES.In the case of the roof that is hidden and no way see how much damage there is. However, it is so common in roofing that sheathing replacement should be included quote anyway. Such as $xx per sheet of sheathing that needs replacing.Or in the case of the bathroom WP finds that there water damage to the DW and the studs. No this was a case of him just not reading the problem correctly and mis-bidding.However, after doing 1/2 dozen different WP removals and seeing the range of difficulty I wonder if it would not be more appropriate to do give an bid with a range and never to exceed number in stead of a fixed price.
No its not.
If you were working for me as a painting sub, and you gave a FIXED PRICE to strip wallpaper, that is how much I would pay you. There is nothing hidden, and if you are willing to strip wallpaper for a fixed price, it's either your gain or your loss, not mine. If you bid for 10 hours and it took 2 hours, you get 8 hours free money.
If you were working for me as a painting sub, and you gave an ESTIMATE to strip wallpaper, I'd ask how many hours that covers, and we'd take it from there, but it would be a time and materials job pure and simple. If you said the estimate covered 8 hours and it only took 2 hours, I'd pay you for 2. If it took 12 I'd pay for 12.
Please don't tell me you're one of those guys who gives a fixed price to do a job, then changes it if the work gets harder (but not if the work gets easier). Nearly 100% of my customers have been burned by 'contractors' like that, and won't be again.
Anyway, DanT is The Man for finishing the job and not whining. I guarantee you that he'll recoup the rest of the lost hours shortly, on another phase of the same job or on another job.
With all due respect, I don't work as a painting sub. I wouldn't give a you a price to strip wallpaper, but to entertain your arguement I wouldn't tank 8 hours pay for 2 hours of work and if I had trouble you'd pay me something extra or I wouldn't bid or estimate or do jobs for you in the future. I'd finish what we had agreed on to your complete satisfaction and move on. I'm honest my guys work hard and if you don't want to work with that there are plenty of people who do.
The guys that sub for me know it the customers I work for know it and its really simple.
I don't try to make up money on other parts of a project That just doesn't feel right.
So in your mind, you're working Time and Materials even if you present what looks like a fixed price up front. I go out of my way to avoid subs that work like that.
Good. I go out of my way to avoid working for contractors period.
I'm delivering a great product at a fair price for my customer. That to me seems like good business.
Not to fan the flames but I thought of this today.
I had a client that we just did a bathtub/surround/faucet install a few weeks ago. She called and said while her son was taking a shower the shower leaked and got water on the kitchen ceiling. ( It ran through from upstairs tub to downstairs kitchen)
I got there in about a half hour (we put a priority on warranty work) and found the it was no fault of ours but apperently the young man had failed to secure the shower curtain. She apologized repeatedly and asked my forgiveness. Should I have charged her or asked for a little more money? It took up some of my time, fuel and according to your method of business I should be entitled?
I didn't. I said of course not, if there is a problem we want to fix it and I am glad to take the time to check it out. She thanked me again. Told me how impressed she was with our prompt service when we thought we might have a problem. And then asked if I could replace her upstairs windows. Your method may work. But I know mine does. DanT
You seem to have problems with people closing shower curtains, don't you?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Dan's post was reminding me of another from at least a few years ago, where the owner's obese daughter was somehow unable to keep water off the floor during her showers, so that the bathroom and the ceiling below were both being ruined. Who was that??
I'm sure Dan will be along soon to set the record straight but I seem to recall it was him (his client that is...).
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Yep, that was one of my clients also. Such interesting clientel I have I guess. Sure, I could work for the normal, trim, attractive crowd with decent kids like you guys. But where would the challenge be? DanT
Don't worry, man, I mostly work for freaks too, people just like me. In between I spice things up by working for has-been movie stars and lip-sync artists, retired spies, and fugitive embezzlers. The more they forget to close the shower curtain the more work I have.
Don't mean to highjack this thread but after reading this , it got me to thinking.
Couple of weeks ago I got a call to give someone an estimate on finishing a basement and adding a bathroom. I went out and looked at the job, ran some numbers and called them back with an estimate.
Two days ago I get a call from the HO saying they want me to do the work and could I please stop by with a contract.Somehow I get the feeling that they think I was giving them a fixed price.Now, I did the best I could with my estimate but my plumber and concrete cutting guys just gave me an estimate over the phone.The HO told me how many sf the basement was and thats how I figured the drop ceiling materials.
Do you guys think I could have handled this differently or is this normal.When I gave them the estimate I told them please understand this is an estimate, but I don't think it sunk in.How do you guys handle this in your contracts.
This is my first full year of being self employed and I've been bitten a time or two into adding this or that or eating something that I felt like I should'n have to just to build my name, but those times were on a handshake instead of a contract.
Sorry for the highjack, but this seemed like a good group to throw this out to.
Why give an estimate instead of a fixed price proposal?If you just want to give them a ballpark number, do that at your own risk with some very clear conditions. Then follow up with your hard number proposal.The fact that the last contact you had with them is the estimate makes them confused. If you followed up with a hard number they would have something concrete to go on.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon,
Maybe your right.I wasnt trying to be wishy washy, but my plumber stays really busy and I have to talk him in to doing small jobs so he estimates like this;.... If it's like you say it is ,It will probably be xxx to do that. My concrete cutting guys won't tell me what the bill is until he's made the cut that the plumber marks out and then measures it, although he does have a minimum fee.
So, as you can see there is a lot of guessing going on here and if I pad the bid too much to cya then it seems as if I loose the job. By the way, I know I'll probaly get blasted for this but I almost always call em to give the estimate, then if their interested I'll meet with them again.Maybe its a regional thing but just about every successful contractor here does it this way.People here don't seem to like to make a decision with you sitting face to face. Also this is the land of the tire kickers, many times your not competing against another builder, just the fact that they thought they could buy $12,000 worth of work for $6000.
How could I handle this better?
Maybe its a regional thing but just about every successful contractor here does it this way.People here don't seem to like to make a decision with you sitting face to face.
It must indeed be a regional thing. I've read time and time again on this forum that you must present proposals in person, but that certainly wouldn't work around here. If I tried to arrange to visit to present a proposal I would be told to mail it. I wouldn't consider trying to make a decision about this sort of thing while a contractor sat across the table from me, and I wouldn't expect my customers to do that either.
Also this is the land of the tire kickers, many times your not competing against another builder, just the fact that they thought they could buy $12,000 worth of work for $6000.
Again, absolutely true. I get this all the time, despite putting some price guidance in my advertising.
How could I handle this better?
I don't think you can handle it any better. There is only one cure for this sort of thing, and that is to get more leads. Since I've been doing the stuff I do my closing average has been 25%-35%. To make sure I don't go on forced vacation all my strategy is based on getting enough leads, which usually involves advertising a little further afield that I would wish, and making sure I do everything I can to get referrals etc
JohnIf my baby don't love me no more, I know her sister will.
I just had a guy not go with me because I would not give him a ballpark number. Any number you say is fixed in their head. Too high and you were trying to screw them, too low and you were trying to get the job then screw them.
I tellt hem it will take a week to ten days to get back to them and then I give them a firm quote. And never use a measurement I haven't taken. The homeowners usually guesstimate or use the last contractors number. I use mine and mine only. DanT
The homeowners usually guesstimate or use the last contractors number. I use mine and mine only. DanT
Dan, thats what I usually do, but I was in a hurry because the HO gave me incomplete directions and by the time I got to there house I was frustrated and they were busy doing something else and just showed me the basement (which was partialy finished ) and said just sheetrock these rooms and put a bathroom here with basic "stuff" ,throw a drop ceiling in and run some trim.Honestly, these were the specs that I was given and then they went back upstairs.
"these were the specs that I was given and then they went back upstairs."
That situation is really common. The other one is they ask you what you would do or how you would do it and once they see the quote they start being specific. All part of the deal.
Again though in my opinion you should have taken measurements in the basement and come up with stronger numbers. I can measure most areas and get a feel for them in about 15 minutes. Also as you go along you can keep copies of your quotes for reference later down the road.
I also have a number of web sites on my favorites that allow me to retail price most items for bathroom remodels (which we do a lot of) without leaving the office. Saves a lot of time. And at the suggestion of Bob Kovacs a few years ago I made up a pricing schedule for all common bathroom issues so half the time I can quote it standing in their living room. Another time saver.
You made the statement that people don't feel comfortable making a decision with you standing in front of them. Some do want some time but generally speaking I felt that way and later learned it wasn't them that was uncomfortable, it was me. Getting better at you presentation technique will help. And practice is the only way to get better. DanT
I'm the opposite of DanT. I have a set speech I give, hemming and hawing, about how I cannot guesstimate a price on the spot. Almost every homeowner asks either 'how much' or 'how long' during the first meeting, and I do not give an answer, ever. OK, there's an exception, yesterday I looked at a tiny door-hanging job and I told the guy 2-4 hours. Other than than, NOBODY gets an on-the-spot estimate. They get a written proposal within 1-2 weeks with everything included and I get the chance to make sure everything is correct.
Never rely on someone else's measurements, make your own and use them.
I was just wondering if it was Dan that posted that story about the large girl and leaky shower...
Don't know how many times I've told that story to others...
I wouldn't have asked for money for that. Why would I? You got a sales opportunity and you showed you care about your work. I consider that lucky.
Did you get the window job? How about the cieling repaint?
If there had been a fault in the plumbing not caused by you but just coincidental to your doing the work would you have fixed that for free?
"If there had been a fault in the plumbing not caused by you but just coincidental to your doing the work would you have fixed that for free?"
IF it took less than an hours, yes. I didn't know I would get a sales oppurtunity so according you your own theory I should have charged her as I had other things to get done that day. Anyway, you can milk the cow dry or leave soem for another day. DanT
IIRC Sonny suggested an "advertising" item in the overhead just for such situations.
I don't think you should tell me what my theory is. I follow up any of my work for free, for any reason.
On fixing the plumbing problem I might've fixed it for free if it was quick. Its kinda hard to say.
Do you think your customers believe you are an honest person?
What if you paid an employee to strip that paper? Would you ask for more money then?
How could you have known the wallpaper would take forever?
Edited 5/24/2006 9:23 am ET by TMO
Actually of the 22 hours it took one of my guys worked on it 16. I finished it as I needed to send him to another job. I found a quicker way that had we found it earlier would have saved 4 or 5 hours. I do believe that my customers believe that I am an honest person. Why would they not? DanT
I can sum this all up.
Just be a freaking man!
(and men don't beg ...)
btw Dan ... I agree 100% with U.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Roar! You kill me! DanT
I hope you ain't accusing me of begging.
As for being a man, I'm not too scared to ask for a couple of bucks because of a problem with thier house.
Cluck Cluck, you big man.
Edited 5/24/2006 9:16 pm ET by TMO
Edited 5/25/2006 7:09 am ET by TMO
I don't know. And I'm sure they don't think you are dishonest.
But I'm sure I'm not dishonest and I'm sure if there is an unanticpated problem like the one you ran into that it's (I am)justified in asking for more money.
TMO,You keep talking about unanticipated problems like no one has ever had difficulty pulling wall paper off of a wall.Of all the demo tasks, that has got to be in the top five of difficult-to-estimate jobs. Dan made a mistake and he's man enough to admit it, he should have done any number of different things to protect himself.Instead, he's living with his mistake and learning from and treating the customer as they deserve to be treated.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Both your way and Dan's can work, but you might take a lesson from him.
I think that you get a better type of customer if you are seen as someone who does exactly what he says he will do, especially when it costs him money. It is no accident that the lady in this case asked him to put in a new door without questioning the price.
The best customers (even the one's with not much money) are only concerned with price as a secondary consideration. Much more important to them is integrity. Don't think that they are not paying attention. They see how hard the work is and what you are putting into the job. When there is trouble and it is not reflected in the bill, they know they no longer need to look for a good contractor. They are yours for life.
You can still give them a great product for a fair price but that price will also be fair to you. The extra that they pay is worth it because they know that you will do what you say. Why would they risk anything else?
I must be on the right track then. I have great customers.
I do exactly what I say I'm gonna do. But if I don't ask for more money in situations like Dan it kinda feels like I'm thiers not like they are mine if you catch my drift.
Additionally if I go outside my normal billing parameters to make up for a loss on another aspect of a project I feel like I'm taking advatage.
TMO,
Let me pose a scenario-
You need a ride to the airport and call up a livery service. They say "that will be $24.90". You accept their price and take the van to the airport. When you get there the driver says "I didn't expect to have to take that detour, and they added some traffic lights, and people were not driving very kindly today, so the total will be $38.13."
Would you pay the extra $$ because, after all, the guy was very honest and he didn't know that the "job" was going to take that long?
Let me say that the issue that I (and I would guess others) have about your plea for more money are based on the fact that you're talking about a fixed price bid for a given amount of work. If your clients understand that your doing the job on a time and materials basis, then I think you MUST charge more for the job taking longer than you estimated it would. It just gets sticky when you give a fixed price and then decide to not honor your agreement.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Edited 5/22/2006 4:23 pm ET by JonBlakemore
Livery services bill by the time in the car don't they?
Though to make the analogy more accurate if A problem I "owned" somehow made the trip take longer I would pay that extra money in a heart beat and without batting an eye.
For example Lets say I'm afraid of riding over a particular bridge and that adds an hour to the trip should'n the livery guy get extra money from me?
If my truck breaks down, a guy quits and I cut my hand off, I still do the job to the bid I offer even though those eventuallities could make the job last longer, but if the last guy used super glue on the wallpaper and there was no way to know it then why in the world wouldn't I ask for more money? My time is valuable and Not just to me.
I agree it is a "sticky" situation, but I would be very comfortable asking for more money. I'd handle it with tact and diplomacy.
Livery services bill by the time in the car don't they?
Though to make the analogy more accurate if A problem I "owned" somehow made the trip take longer I would pay that extra money in a heart beat and without batting an eye.
For example Lets say I'm afraid of riding over a particular bridge and that adds an hour to the trip should'n the livery guy get extra money from me?
I was going to let this one go but not that I'm back in the discussion...
Your example of you refusing to ride over a bridge is clearly different than wall paper removal taking more time. If the customer said "could you remove the wall paper without using any chemicals or water" that would be a reason to ask for more money. The paper sticking more than you thought is just how it goes.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Valiant effort, but I think it's a lost cause.
It isn't. The wallpaper is customers not mine. The problem with going over the bridge is the customers not the car service.
It isn't a perfect anology but it is better representative of the problem than what my understanding of your analogy is.
Edited 5/25/2006 7:02 am ET by TMO
Perhaps this 'discussion' hinges on one simple concept.
I don't think Dan made a mistake. I think he bid with the best intention of doing the right job at a good and fair priice for his customer. I think there was a proiblem with the materials used to apply the bathroom wallpaper that resulted in extra time. I believe there was no way to know about it ahead of time.
Everyone else, Dan included, seems to believe he made some sort of mistake that should be punished loss of revenue per hour.
So for all 'suck up the loss' types WHAT was Dans mistake?
Enlighten me. Don't give up on this lost cause.
His mistake was that he told the lady he would do the job for a specific price which, in this case was not enough. Not a big deal because sometimes, hopefully almost all the time, his costs are less than the price and he makes a profit.
Dan takes a long view and realizes that as painful as it may be, his reputation is more important than a few bucks. Though it doesn't mean that he is more honest or professional than you, he will be perceived to be by many customers. Because of this, he will, in the long run, be able to charge more for his services.
It works for Dan, maybe not for you. You should continue to do what you think is right but you should also consider an alternative.
Back of the reputation ####.
You don't know jack about my reputation or the money I charge. You are offering an errant opinion based on your disagreement with the position I'm taking on this debate but your ASSumptions are getting on my nerves.My specific bone of contention is insistence that it is MORE professional to eat a loss than it is to ask for more money. Eating a loss isn't professional and it leads to jacking up rates on other customers. Why should a new customer have to pay for problems in another customers project.
Edited 5/25/2006 8:10 am ET by TMO
Edited 5/25/2006 8:14 am ET by TMO
My specific bone of contention is insistence that it is MORE professional to eat a loss than it is to ask for more money.
It is. That's what the majority of other posters have said. You're free to disagree, but just because you disagree (and feel strongly about it) doesn't mean you're right.
I'm not a tradesman, and, as a homeowner, I would expect that a contractor be competent to bid a job correctly and complete it as bid. He knows going into the job that it may take more or less time than he expected. If it takes more time (and it's a flat rate job), then he eats it because he is a professional and he abides by the terms of the contract without complaint (at least without complaint to me. Who knows what he says to DW when he gets home! LOL). If it takes less time, then I pay him fully according to the contract, knowing that I got the job I expected and I'm paying the amount I expected to pay.
If I didn't want to pay that much, then I should have looked for a T&M contract or shopped for a different contractor.
If he came to me asking for more money because the job was taking longer than expected, I would question not only his competence to bid and perform the work, but also his integrity.
TMO - I'm not saying you're incompetent or that you lack integrity. I don't know you from Adam, so I can't speak to those issues. But I do know that it would be highly unlikely that I would invite you back to do additional jobs if you had asked me for additional money because of an error in your bid.
That sentence got mixed in with what was an emotional reponse to an errant assumption.
That sentence wasn't supposed to come off so strongly.
So torn lets say you had called me, It would've been by refferal, I'm personable guy, I explain things well. I would've qualified you, you I assume would've qualified me.
If I had gotten the sense that you were the kind of person who would want to make your problems mine, I probably wouldn't have offered to work for you. You wouldn't have recieved my excellent service my clean cut, drug free employees, top notch craftmanship or my 100% warranty on workmanship.
So with all due respect hire the guy that sticks to his bid on a substantial unkown problem and then sticks it to you on the next job you ask him to bid cause he was such a great guy but is harboring a grudge.
So with all due respect hire the guy that sticks to his bid on a substantial unkown problem and then sticks it to you on the next job you ask him to bid cause he was such a great guy but is harboring a grudge.
This has got to be my last post on this, I think we can agree to disagree, but, where on here do you see anybody saying that if they did a job and it took longer then expected that they now stick it to the customer on the next job/bid?
You've mentioned it several times throughout the thread and I havent seen it. I'm sure its there because you say so, I just havent seen it.
I've never harbored a grudge because I bid low but I have learned from it.
Doug
"You've mentioned it several times throughout the thread and I havent seen it. I'm sure its there because you say so, I just havent seen it."
It's there and its implied as well. Haven't you ever heard another contractor say "I'll get it back on the next job?"
Dan, himself said he bid a door replacement job for that customer high because he was in that kind of mood. Now he may not have stuck it to his customer but I took it to mean he bid higher because of the experience with the wallpaper.
Believe me at this point I'm more than willing to agree to disagree.
Good night.
Edited 5/25/2006 11:07 pm ET by TMO
Good night.
Back at ya, after I have a cold one!
Doug
"Dan, himself said he bid a door replacement job for that customer high because he was in that kind of mood. Now he may not have stuck it to his customer but I took it to mean he bid higher because of the experience with the wallpaper."
I guess I should clarify this point so you can sleep tonight. I bid the door install at $650 at the same time as the wall paper/paint job. I usually will take 5% off when the job is a multiple job bid and they accept all of the jobs if all goes well. Not this time. It didn't go well and I am not taking 5% off. That was my point. It is not contractual. It is something I do if our expenses stay low due to doing a number of jobs in one location since we do small jobs typically.
So, for the last point on this one, I knew I shouldn't have bid the job the way I did. But I did it. I was wrong. I know about wall paper removal and said so in my first post. You don't know about wall paper removal, you said so a few posts ago. I bid incorrectly on a skill that I have and know about. You think I am wrong based on knowledge of work you don't know about.
I have read virtually everything Sonny Lycos has said and have PM him on discussions in the past. He is correct. I bid it incorrectly. All I had to do was stand on T&M and I would have been fine. I have never seen Sonny state that you should make a customer pay for your error. I f*cked up. Have a nice day. DanT
Thanks again Dan, and again with all due respect, I don't think you made a mistake.
So let me apologize to you as well,
I'm sorry that I don't think what you bid was a mistake.
:)
Edited 5/26/2006 6:36 am ET by TMO
Lost cause, I mean TMO
I really didn't want to get back into this, and I'm not questioning your integrity, don't know you, don't know your work.
I do know that as Jeff Buck so eloquently stated, time to Man up and move on.
You bid a job and it takes you longer then you expected, get over it and do a better job next time, groveling for more money is not professional, don't care how you justify it.
With your way there is no incentive to work hard to get the job done in a timely manner, hell you can go ask for more money, something I think most of us here would feel ashamed to do, I know I would.
Sounds to me that you don't give fixed price bids. That's fine as long as your customers know that your bid is open-ended.
I'm curious, do you inform the customer that if the job takes you longer then you expected that you'll be back for more money? I'm guessing that would make some of them a bit uneasy.
Doug
Edited 5/25/2006 4:36 pm ET by DougU
I have a good buddy that works the same ...
misses something he shoulda caught ... fine ... he just BEG'S for more money.
Guess who's never learned how to bid properly?
Guess who's now afraid to take any job that's of any substantial size?
because since he's never been forced to learn to bid the small ones ... the big ones are way outta his league.
and now guess who reaps the rewards by bidding and taking some of those jobs?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Wow. Who would have thought that my sniveling over my own error would go 80 posts? Amazing. Schelling really stated my feelings to a tee. Buck stated my emotions to a tee lol. TMO doesn't get it or chooses not to. He says he is interested in hearing the other side of the argument and then when he hears it get p*ssed. So.....time to end my involvement as I think all my whining issues are covered. On to bigger and better things. DanT
I get it and I don't get it. I'm sure as #### not offended by people who disagree but I am wee bit disgruntled by the implication that somehow my way lacks integrity. I know my way is right for me and it only works because it is based on integrity. It is based on telling the truth, it is based on making sure I charge the correct customer the correct amount so I can pay my guys, feed my kids and sleep at night and still take care of my other customers. It keeps me from bidding high cause "thats the mood I'm in." It keeps me from getting pulled around by the "beltloops" or pulling some slick sign on the dotted line I'm the best carpenter in world used car salesman line of #### to get jobs.
I changed my way of thinking and how I do business based on stuff I read in these forums. A while back there was a poster named Sonny Lykos who basically made an eloquent and impassioned post about how cowardly contractors are when it comes to asking for money for things like planning and running into problems and I saw the truth in his writings. If I had the time and knowledge I'd find it and post it, it was great.
Like I said before Dan, I understand what you did, I don't think I would've done the same and I know I wouldn't have bid the subsequent door change high to try to catch up.
Jeff,
You have no idea what kinda jobs I am doing.
Watch those beltloops.....
"and now guess who reaps the rewards by bidding and taking some of those jobs?"
I would guess any other contractor in town besides you but I'm sure you could prove me wrong.....
yer a sensitive little fella, ain't ya?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I do inform my customers that If I run into unseen problems it can cost them more money, why wouldn't I tell them that? And why would they be uneasy. Wouldn't they want the problems fixed not just covered up by some fly by night butcher or rushed through by some "I'll stick to my bid or die trying knight in shining armor"
You may want to check the definition of eloquent. I think the word you were looking for is "succinctly"
Again, I believe it is professional to ask for more money, but I'm not saying it isn't professional to not ask.
I get that you think I'm a lost cause but I appreciate your last response anyway.
I do plenty of fixed bids and I do plenty of time and materials(just to answer that question)
Edited 5/25/2006 10:00 pm ET by TMO
Edited 5/25/2006 10:01 pm ET by TMO
"So for all 'suck up the loss' types WHAT was Dans mistake? "
Not making it thru college?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
It isn't. The wallpaper is customers not mine. The problem with going over the bridge is the customers not the car service.
The wallpaper was not Dan's problem until he gave them a fixed price bid. What part of fixed price don't you understand? Earlier on David said it sounds like you do T&M work under the auspices of fixed price bids. I think he was right on and agree with him that I have a problem when a sub starts that.
I think there was a proiblem with the materials used to apply the bathroom wallpaper that resulted in extra time. I believe there was no way to know about it ahead of time.
That's where we differ. I don't see how you can not expect there is a good chance that wall paper could take a lot more time that is *should* take. In my experience, that's just the nature of wall paper removal.
Now if you are talking about doing a roof tear-off and finding a few sheets of plywood to replace, that's another story. The customer should be made aware, prior to commencement of work, what you will do and how much you will charge to replace sheets of ply.
I don't think anyone is saying that a contractor should not charge more when dealing with significant hidden conditions, it's just that our industry has a lot of problems already with contractors charging more than they said they would, anything that can be done to avoid that situation is a good thing.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I hope you don't too offended when I say that I think we agree in principle. The aspects of wallpaper removal are something I'm completely unaware of nor do I care to learn about em.
I think Dan ran into a fault not unlike discovering rotten sheathing and as of yet nobody has written anything to prove otherwise. In other words his loss of time was due to a "significant hidden condition."
I may be wrong about that, but then I did assume that Dan knew something about wallpaper removal.
Please accept my apologies for agreeing with you.
:)
I think Dan ran into a fault not unlike discovering rotten sheathing and as of yet nobody has written anything to prove otherwise. In other words his loss of time was due to a "significant hidden condition."
This is a cut & paste from Dan's first post.
I learned a long time ago, the hard way, to not flat price wall paper removal. You simply cannot tell what you will run into. I always do removal by the hour. But she allowed me to test a section so I gave a price. At the last minute she said also include the master bath for removal of paper only as she wanted to do some paint and stencilling in there. I glanced at the room and figured from what I had seen 4 hours labor.
By Dan's own admission, he KNEW that he should not give a fixed price because of the risks involved. Unfortunately for him, he went against his better judgement (something I'm often guilty of) and committed himself to a fixed price to remove the wall paper.
You say we agree "in principle" but I don't see where that is evidenced.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
We agree that significant hidden conditions are something contractors should be able ask for more money. Thats principle we agree on.
Wether or not Dan ran into a signifcant hidden condition is where we disagree. At least thats how I see it.
Besides I already apologized to you.
Edited 5/25/2006 10:57 pm ET by TMO
I agree.No apology necessary.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I'm with DanT on this, I give a price I stick with it.
Your analogy to the roof is completly different.
If you bid a job for me and then tried to come back and ask for more money because you lacked the skill to bid properly you'd lose credibility first and second you'd never be asked to do work again.
Your statement that it "cant hurt" is foolish, it damn well can hurt.
Doug
Again no it isn't. Unless your time isn't worth money but I guess thats for you to decide.
How does it hurt to ask for more money, and who exactly does it hurt?
You can stick your "foolish" accusation....
Again I respect Dan and others decision to eat his lost time without asking for extra I simply stated I wouldn't do the same.
I'd eat it if I had to but I wouldn't eat it without asking my customer for some more money.
You can stick your "foolish" accusation....
Just goes to your credibility as a "professional"
Your word has some instability to it, thats not a good thing.
Doug
No it doesn't. Thats why I am not afraid to ask for more in situations like this.
I love reading the material you guys put out here. After reading about the general hatred of wallpaper and watching the topic evolve into a discussion on getting paid for your work I could stand it no longer - I have to comment. I am not a professional contractor and do not have to make a living trying to please homeowners. I love to work on projects for myself - on my own home and some rental property I have, and am very grateful that the only person I have to please is myself.
I have hired contractors on several occassions when the complexity of the task went beyond my skill level or I just did not have time to deal with it. As a customer, I would never expect anyone to take a beating on a job they do for me. When you are working for me, I expect to pay you for your time - I also expect you to do the job for me in an efficient manner and to the best of your ability. I have frequently volunteered to pay more than the quoted amount when it was obvious that the scope of the job was more than originally planned. I have also had people do jobs for me on an open-ended time and materials basis. Give me an hourly rate, bill me for the materials and supplies and whatever it takes is whatever it takes. I consider a successful customer - contractor relationship one where we both walk away from the completed job happy. Not to mention the fact that I want to be able to call you again later the next time I need some help. I would like to think that when I call a guy that has worked for me before he will call me back because I am the type of customer he would like to work for.
As far as your wallpaper removal job is concerned, I would not expect you to donate lots of unanticipated time and I think you were well within your rights to discuss it with the homeowner and negotiate a reasonable amount for the work. If the homeowner says "too bad, you made the quote" (and I know people that would do this) I would make sure I never darken his doorway again.
I didn't read your post last night but thank you for your input.
You're exactly the type of customer I bend over backwards to please.
When I run into tough wall paper I soak it with water and wait for awhile and then sand it with my orbital sander. That opens up more areas where a scraper can get into.
been there as well. wallpaper in bathrooms sometimes has a vinyl covering. it can be a real pain.
RTC