I’m getting ready to remodel my kitchen. I’ve decided on
Kraftmaid cabinets. But now my friend wants me to use his
buddy’s cabinet shop. Says buddy can make cabinets equal to
the quality of Kraftmaid for less money.
My problem is that the finish on my existing 5 year old “custom”
cabinets is already history in many places. And the drawers are
falling apart.
So, is it possible for a custom local shop to make cabinets equal
in quality to Kraftmaids’s? For less money? I plan to be in this house for the next 20+ years.
Thanks
Zork12
Replies
A custom shop should be able to surpass the quality of Kraftmade cabinets. For the same or less money? I don't know. Have them quote the job, and see what the difference is.
Not all the time, but a custom shop will take more time selecting the material for better color match, take a little more care about the quality, will be more likely to stand behind their product if there's a problem.
A custom cabinet shop could also be more flexible about the color and finish. If they do catalyzed lacquer, the finish should last a very long time.
They can also be a lot more flexible about the cabinet layout. If you need some odd cabinet shape or size, the local cabinet shop should be able to handle it.
What kind of finish do you have on your existing cabinets? And what's the joinery and materials of your existing drawers? Like anything, there are many different levels of "custom" cabinets. And I'm not passing judgement, but if you have kids (or adults)that splash or are kind of messy, no finish will hold up for very long.
About half my business is shop building cabinets. For my taste, which is understandably biased they always look better and are better made than most factory jobs. I also think my finishes look nicer also but theirs will look as original longer, usually. Still working to improve on that. Experiences with your local shops may vary from that.
is it possible for a custom local shop to make cabinets equal
in quality to Kraftmaids's? For less money?
my cabinet guy can
But now my friend wants me to use his
buddy's cabinet shop.
you need to read the post about friends and business.
How would you feel about your friend if you have a warrenty problem that your friend buddy wont solved.
Yes, it's absolutely possible. There's a one man shop in my little town that consistently beats factory prices and the (non toxic) finish he uses is at least as nice as any factory cabinets I've installed.
Do all small shops out perform factories? No, helll no. But if you look around enough you might get lucky and find one. I bet you'll be glad you did, too. It's an entirely different experience than ordering your cabinets from a catalog of standardized units.
Around here we call them Crapmade.:)
Wayne
It all depends on the shop & its methods. Ask about how the drawers are made -- dovetails & good slides e.g. Blum? Ask about materials used -- oak or maple drawer sides, joinery used, quality ply vs. melamine-clad MDF?
Regarding the finish disappearing, ask about the shop's finishing schedule - sprayed-on cat lacquer or brushed-on poly? How thick?
I've never priced having customs built (I do my own) so I have no idea how the prices would compare. But I have no doubt that, given the right shop, you should be able to get a better unit from the shop vs. the factory. Now, given the fact that the average kitchen life span these days is something like 10 years, since folks like to "redecorate", the extra quality may be overkill. YMMV.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Everything fits, until you put glue on it.
Welcome to BT zork, see this is your first post.
For myself, cannot imagine buying factory cabinets (of course i make my own).
Please fill in you r profile (click on your own name and the profile screen comes up)
If you have any woodworking ability and have the time (tax free labor, etc), my suggestion is that you DIY the cabinets.
Even if you only have a few tools now, for the cost of the cabinets you can buy some 'good enough' tools for non-production, have the cabinets, and have the tools also.
Just my 2 cents. Never heard of 'Kraftmaid' without googling.
'Hound, that is a good suggestion for someone who has the necessary proficiency with woodworking and finishing tools, and who owns most of the stuff now, that would be required to do a shop-built kitchen.
Let's suppose that the OP is really willing and has the time, but has few if any of the tools. Would not the cost of tooling up blow the budget, here?
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"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
For the first kitchen I made, I bought a new TS, a DC, a thickness planer, a mortiser and an HVLP unit. Still saved a LOT of cash & I liked what I ended up with better'n what I could have bought "off the shelf". Of course, that's if you don't count my time, which My Lovely Assistant assures me is worthless anyhooz. ;-)Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
I say you have to make sure you are comparing apples to apples to do this.
Spec out the kraftmaids like a quality cabinet should be made (kraftmaids standard package is lacking)-quality plywood boxes, real wood dovetailed drawers, quality self closing slides-hinges. Remember kraftmaids are semi-custom so you only have a set amount of sizes in each cabinet. This can lead to a lot of filler panels....
Then see if your buddies cabinet shop can do them (with the same specs) cheaper.
I actually had to look for a while to find a quality cabinet shop locally that made good cabinets. One 'shop' just bought the doors from another supplier and the boxes premade from another supplier and put them together and installed them. These guys were cheaper for a low quality cabinet (their standard option) but then the upcharges for the quality stuff were enormous.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
I had a couple people come out to give me an estimate on cabinets for a couple openings in a bedroom. The opening were not well thought out as I was doing this myself for the 1st time. Any way both people that came out gave me a quote for custom made cabinets. Due to the size and the fact that they would be upstairs they both figured that each opening would require two carcasses each (and each carcass would have 3 drawers)
Both said that they would sub out the drawers (12 total). I can't remember if they would also sub out the drawer fronts as well.
Though I would have prefered to have gone with either i ended up going with a brand called Bertch. Altough the cabinets look good, the constuction of the cabinets seems somewhat shoddy. This is due to the fact that you now get to see the entire piece, top, front back inside and out. It's amasing just what a couple walls and a counter top can hide.
My point is that I have both Kraftmade and Bertch and based on what I have seen I'd consider having a cabinet shop build them for you or yourself if you have the time, tools, money and a friend with the experience to help you out when you need it.
KaiserRoo
Can't answer that, but you can:
--Price out for plywood sides and backs, not mdf
--Price out for good Accuride slides, or equivalent
--Price out for spray lacquer finish, if your buddy can do that.
Then compare prices. I find the biggest upgrade to cabinets is the drawer slides.
Thanks for all the answers to my question.My existing cabs are Ash. They were built on site and then the finish was gunned on (we found out when we took down the wallpaper).On the doors and drawers wherever there's any contact with a hand, the finish is gone. Even on some of the stiles. The fake drawer fronts on the sink cab are really bad, I guess from being rubbed against.One door cracked at the side of the raised panel and is now glued together with Elmer's. The drawer sides are 3/8" plywood pin nailed together. Has a middle underneath drawer slide which has failed on a few drawers. Lots of pin nailing as the heads are flush but exposed.
-------------The Kraftmaid cabinets I've priced are all wood, with blum cushion-close drawer glides. Dovetail drawers and roll-out trays. The finish is one of their "burnished" finishes. When I mentioned my kitchen woes to a guy at work, he said he'd had Kraftmaid cabs for 10 years and was very pleased. I went over and looked and they were still nice. So I found a dealer, and took some catalogs etc. etc.
---------------Thanks for suggesting I should worry about doing business with a friend's "buddy." I hadn't thought of that!
--------------------------I've seen some other "custom" shop work in show homes and the Parade of Homes. I mean, stapled plywood drawer boxes and side mounted glides on a $400,000 home? Yet I realize there are custom shops that do good work and could build better cabinets than Kraftmaid but at what cost? I don't want the finish gunned on the wood at my house.Thanks, again, for all your replies.Zork12
zork,
you will hear a lot of folk dissing KM cabs here fro one reason or another. I do believe if you spec them properly and buy them from an independent dealer (NOT HD) you should be able to get a decent product comparable to most other semi custom lines.
I did installs almost exclusively for nearly five years and at least half were KM. No better or worse than any of the others.
Be sure you verify how warranty issues will be handled no matter what you buy.
The cabinets you have not do not seem to present a reasonable representation of what one would normally expect from a local shop. Visit the guys shop and talk shop with him and look for him to point out the differences in his product and warrantee.
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
Eric, I knew I'd get some flack about Kraftmaid cabinetry. I've
done a lot of looking both at the big boxes and the local places.
Some locals have disappeared in the last year, which makes
their "warranty" pretty much useless. And I've been amazed at
some of the snafus in some of the locals' kitchen displays.But anyway, I do have an independent Kmaid company I'm
working with.zork12
They may look nice on the out side but... 90% of the installs of Craftmaide cabinets the boxes were out of square as well as the face frames. A big deal if your useing Granite CT's. Also if you get full overlay doors and drawers make sure that there is room a between the cabinet door and wall to run the base. Most base nowadays is taller than the toe kick and with the cabinet against the wall there is no rome for base. A kit desinger siting at a computer wont catch that.
Wayne
yep it's possible
Does Kraftmaid use particle board for their boxes?
If so, there's a very good reason to get custom made
from real plywood.
Plywood or press board? Dovetail or rabbet-dado joints? Catalyzed lacquer or poly? Quality hinges? If Euro, find out the brand and the model. Drawer hardware & glides, the same. If you're going to be in the house as long as you say, these things will make a difference.
Custom gives you more flexibility. Ask for references on this guy's work and go see the stuff he's done. if it checks out good, then you may want to go with the custom. Find out what his warranty is.
Who is doing the layout? If you are, then inform yourself on kitchens & their flow, that makes a huge difference.
The great thing about working with a cabinet maker is they understand what the problems are, like not plumb, square or level and they will work with you on that.
I can tell you some nightmare stories where I, as the installer, had to work with a room full of cabinets that the customers bought themselves just to save money. They were so pleased with themselves but alas had no experience with all the foibles that come with such endeavors. You guessed it, they ended up paying even more than had they gone with a pro.
You just have to compare the two and weigh it against your long range needs (kids? pets?, parties?). Make a list of that and see which one will give you the most bang for your buck. Even if you end up paying a bit more for the custom job, it might very well be worth it.
Forget about the "but he's my friend and what if?..." warnings. Business is business, and if the cabinet guy is worth his salt then there shouldn't be a problem when problems arise.
Ditto on all that's been posted. My experience was with a 30's house with the typical small kitchen of that era. Had I used one of the standard brands, I would have ended up with spacers and a lot of wasted space. The contractor designed the kitchen with a CAD program, and the custom cabinetmaker visited us to see the site before he started. He discovered a fatal flaw in the CAD drawing that, if undiscovered, would have meant that we couldn't have opened the oven door on the range without removing or severely cutting an adjacent window sill. He also made some suggestions that allowed us to make maximum use of the little space that we had. I doubt you'd get that from Kraftmaid from a big box store.
One tip: Determine right away what brand and model hinges are being used and buy a bunch of them. I found that when the spring finally fails in the hinge, it's almost impossible to find an exact replacement. The cabinetmaker also wasn't using them anymore. The one I finally found allowed me to use the existing cut out on the door, but it aligned a tiny bit vertically from nearby doors. I'm probably the only person that notices it, but I do have to look at it every day. These are Salice hinges, and I ended up contacting their customer service, described what I needed, and they sent me two hinges to try out. They worked, so I bought twenty-four of them directly. Good service.
Can't say my experience with hinges is the same as yours. Euro hinges are designed for a standardized installation layout and have three way adjustment to compensate for small variations from that layout arising from less than careful installation. Any good quality manufacturers' hinge can be replaced by any good quality manufacturers' hinge though if I have to replace, I do all the hinges on the door to account for any small differences in hinge action.
Actually, the Euro hinges aren't standard. Were you to go to the Salice web site, you'd find eight different families of hinges, each with variations in length and action. Had it been as simple as you imply, I wouldn't had to do the search and would just have gone to a big box. My extended discussion with their customer service representative to find the right hinge bore this out. Maybe you've been luckier than I.
I've employed the concept of buying replacements for the obvious wear or failure items up front, and I've not been disappointed. Comes from a career maintaining Army helicopters and knowing the importance of what we called a "tech supply" to keep them flying. For instance, American Standard guarantees their bath systems for life, but do you wish to wait a week or so to take a shower as the free part makes its way to you? Local plumbing houses don't carry these parts, so I keep a spare, and the warranty one goes into the spare box when it finally arrives. I bought the initial replacements on line, and the investment has never been regretted. How long would you want DW to go without a bath or shower and blame you for it?
I have a very fine and very expensive Toto toilet, but it has a rather cheap plastic fill valve made by Korky. Toto calls it GMax -- same thing, but GMax sounds cooler. Anyway a plastic part at the top of the unit is prone to failure, so I ordered a few extra on line (used the Korky brand for search). That's paid off very well, as the toilet isn't down for more than a few minutes when it acts up.
I like preventive maintenance.
I keep a supply of wear parts too, everything from wood stove gaskets to buttons for my shirts to brushes for my tools.Interesting about your experiences, quite different than mine. I built an adjustable hinge drilling jig that does both cups and plates about 12 years ago based on the standard 32 mm euro system. Every hinge I've installed since then including Blum, Mepla, Salice, and cheapies like Taymor, Mills Pride and lumber store branded hinges have worked with the layout. The only difference I've ever run across was a pair of Blums that had non-standard cup screw placement. I have a 14/7/364 pub kitchen I built many years ago that constantly needs replacement hinges. I just use whatever I have on hand and they always work.Last thing they need to be doing is making non-standard versions of standard items.
As you wish, but an investigation would show a wide variety of lengths and actions. Try http://www.salice.com/uk/prodotti.htm for a start.
Edited 10/1/2009 9:28 pm ET by BARMIL
Thanks for your reply about fillers and such. I have
a bowling alley kitchen with a small peninsula at the
end. Wasted space and too many fillers is a non-problem.In fact, the custom cabinets I have now have more wasted
space than the Kraftmaid kitchen would have. I guess
it depends upon your space.zork12