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We have a smallish bungalow, that was originally a flat tar and gravel roof. The previous owners added a hip roof. The only access to the “attic” created is through the hole that used to contain the chimney for the franklin stove that we threw out the first year we were here. I’m getting tired of the piece of cardboard I duct-taped over the hole, and am considering covering this hole in the living room with A) drywall and try to stucco it to match the rest B) finished wood panel that looks better than the piece of cardboard.
Am I asking for trouble if we permanently close off the attic. We don’t really want to create a hidden access in a bedroom closet; this is a roof we would have to cut through, not just a ceiling.
I’ve seen spray stucco in a can, does anyone have experience with it for a small area. The ceiling is that “sprayed-on, falls off if you touch it” stuff.
First of all, of course, we have to vent the bathroom and kitchen fans out through the soffits before we close it off, as they now just vent into the “attic”. Why are people so CHEAP when they renovate?
If you’re wondering why we bought it, the property is really nice.
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>>>>> Attic (>30in. height) access- 22in. x 30in. (no equip.) [1505.1] <<<<<
This minimum size allows firefighter with airpack to enter.
etrg
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M.L. Sounds like a popcorn ceiling tecture sprayed on. If so, the popcorn texture in a can does work well for small areas. It also comes in a can for orange peel and knock down applications. Buy two cans just in case your practice run needs redoing. On the access question. You probably do not need access unless the framing is conventional and the roof has some height, then you might be grateful for the extra attic storage possibility. Did the previous owners peel off the tar and gravel? If not, go ahead and ruin some sawzall blades, header the opening and install some pull down stairs (if you have the room). Then on slow days, afternoons, nights, etc., clean off your new attic floor and fill 'er up. :-) Ralph
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Does code require access to the attic?
Jerry
*The fire department hates "surprises" in emergencies.Also makes the homeowner or contractor feel real bad when the firefighter trying to save the property and those who may be inside, gets swallowed up and killed due to "non-conventional" construction.Just get the dwelling inspected by the local code authorities and fire department.If it was a good buy, it will be worth it to bring the structure up to modern standards and expectations.Of course you could take the path of least resistance..........what they don't know, won't hurt them, right?Sometimes I wish I could post here anonymously.
*I'd never get away with closing off an attic. The building inspectors won't even let me close off an attic space over a carport. If there's ever an electrical fire in the attic, the fire department must have access.There are also requirements as to access size. I don't know these off the top of my head but I always make the access two joist bays wide (31-1/2") and the same length.
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>>>>> Attic (>30in. height) access- 22in. x 30in. (no equip.) [1505.1] <<<<<
This minimum size allows firefighter with airpack to enter.
etrg
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The inspectors here in SoCal will not allow you to close off an attic if there is a single electrical box or connection in the attic. All junction boxes (4x4) must have access.
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The inspectors here in SoCal will not allow you to close off an attic if there is a single electrical box or connection in the attic. All junction boxes (4x4) must have access.
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would access thru a gable vent, removable from the outside,
be a possibility? what would the code say about that?
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would access thru a gable vent, removable from the outside,
be a possibility? what would the code say about that?
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You are smart to ask this question. Many homeowners would just go ahead and do it.
>CABO 807.1 Accessible attic areas. A readily accessible attic access framed opening not less than 22x30" shall be provided to any attic area haveing a clear height of over 30".
A gable wouldn't be accessible, and if a firefighter can't get at the fire you're going to lose a lot more house, not to mention a possibly losing the firefighter. There is also nothing wrong with exceeding min. code. Myself, I would keep everything including ducts out of the attic space if possible, pump in enough fire-retardent insulation to choke off the air supply (i'm thinking cellulose), and install a well-sealed access door.
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You are smart to ask this question. Many homeowners would just go ahead and do it.
>CABO 807.1 Accessible attic areas. A readily accessible attic access framed opening not less than 22x30" shall be provided to any attic area haveing a clear height of over 30".
A gable wouldn't be accessible, and if a firefighter can't get at the fire you're going to lose a lot more house, not to mention a possibly losing the firefighter. There is also nothing wrong with exceeding min. code. Myself, I would keep everything including ducts out of the attic space if possible, pump in enough fire-retardent insulation to choke off the air supply (i'm thinking cellulose), and install a well-sealed access door.
Second, all vents should terminate outside the building. The range vent termination is a flat-out violation of CABO 1802.1 and a MAJOR fire hazard. The duct must be smooth interior 'substantially airtight' galv. (hmm, is mine zinc?), stainless, or copper with backdraft damper.
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Thanks for bringing up the fire access point. We hadn't considered that, but the "hole" isn't up to the standards size you've given me. There are no electrical boxes, as it used to be a flat roof----whoops, not sure about the fans, there may be boxes for them, as they were part of the renovation.
Can't do a gable entry, as it is a hip roof. Of course, there is still the exit point for the chimney on the roof, which my husband covered with a sheet of steel. We haven't got around to reshingling that spot. What about turning that into an entry....??asking for trouble??
I love the idea about putting in a set of stairs up to it and using it for storage, but the house is small, and there is no unobtrusive are to put an opening that size. The hall to the bathroom & bedrooms is about 5 feet long--gee, you've got me thinking.................
*As an ex-volunteer-fireman turned chicken, I can tell you about enclosed tight spots, when the building around you breaks out. Last hot building I was in, three of us were about 75' into a 2' high crawlspace under a beach dance hall, when the radio hollered out about a blowout in the main level. Needless to say, we scrambled like drowned rats getting out from under that thing.I'd hate to be in an attic with a 22x30 opening if that happened.etrg
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Thanks for bringing up the fire access point. We hadn't considered that, but the "hole" isn't up to the standards size you've given me. There are no electrical boxes, as it used to be a flat roof----whoops, not sure about the fans, there may be boxes for them, as they were part of the renovation.
Can't do a gable entry, as it is a hip roof. Of course, there is still the exit point for the chimney on the roof, which my husband covered with a sheet of steel. We haven't got around to reshingling that spot. What about turning that into an entry....??asking for trouble??
I love the idea about putting in a set of stairs up to it and using it for storage, but the house is small, and there is no unobtrusive are to put an opening that size. The hall to the bathroom & bedrooms is about 5 feet long--gee, you've got me thinking.................
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Pull-down stairs might work? And fans catch fire, too, if the thermal fuse should fail to do the job. (You may not need the fan in the first place.)
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PLEASE don"t cut off the access. While I sympathize with the desire to get rid of an unsightly situation and the problems with moving the acess, it is very important to maintain an adequate access. As an ex fire chief I cannot overstate the importance of the ability to be able to reach the seat of the fire. In an ordinary situation the firefighters would be able to gain access to the attic space by pulling down the plaster or drywall but in the building you describe it would take a great deal of time to get through with saws and axes. If I had a crew in that house under many fire scenarios I would simply have to pull my men out and try to keep the fire from spreading to surrounding houses or areas. What worries me more than that though is that the situation would not be recognized in time and lives could be lost. Firefighting is hard and dangerous enough at best. I am sure you don't want to be responsible for the loss of life to either a firefighter or the occupants of the house.
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Terrance,
Would you consider a door in the gable end accessable. It would seem to me to be easier and safer than one in the middle of the house.
Rick Tuk
*I am interested in opinions on exterior access also. I have used "hay barn doors" on gable ends so as to prevent having any interior hatches to leak heat from the house.
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Thanks for all the input so far.
re: gable entry...The roof rises from each of the four eaves to a centre ridge that is shorter than the length of the house. I'm calling this a hip roof, sorry if I'm wrong in my terminology. What is the proper term for this roof? There are no gable ends. However, there is the hole in the roof where we removed the stainless chimney.
To the firemen responding: Most attic accesses I've seen have been located in a bedroom closet. How convenient is that? Do you really go looking through the closets for them. Wouldn't the time spent finding the access be better spent chopping a hole in the roof. Would we be better off turning the hole in the roof into an access, rather than the hole in the ceiling. At least it's visible as soon as you drive into the laneway.
Andrew, we (O.K., I'm going to get my husband to do it.) are going to check out and replace the fans this weekend. I didn't realize the fire hazard with the range vent. Of course, I never use it because it's so loud and throws a tremendous amount of static to the radio whenever it's running. I just knew that putting all that moisture up into the attic was a good way to rot out the place. With the roof built over a roof, about the only way to run the pipe is through the 'attic'. God knows what we'll find when we really start looking around.
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yeah the 97 uniform building code requires that if you have 30" of head room clear at any point that you must have access to the area, the post with the name etrg on the 8th was correct. but now the trick is to read between the lines. access and etrg stated the size 22 x 30 that is the minimum access (the key word is access) you must have some access. doesnt mean it cant be in the gable end or somewhere else.
so first measure you head room up there and check the local codes.
97 UBC sec 1505.
*I wish I had the reasoning of the Code designers for every rule, but here the implication is that they're worried about gunk collecting the length of the never-cleaned flue ... I've been in my share of greasy spoons that caught fire while I was there, probably because of the cook's cigarette. ;) Anyway, a rangetop fire could get sucked into the flue by the fan, then blast out into the attic like dragon's breath. Better to scorch the neighbors than start an enclosed fire, the code reckons. (I think you have to terminate 3 ft. or more from the property line, too.)I bet you could mount a rooftop or external wall-mount fan and extend the duct to it. This will solve your fire and noise problems at once. I bought a Nutone external unit for $250 or so a couple of years ago.I think you're right about "hip roof" -- it's generally a roof that's all eaves, no gables. Now, I'm not trying to pad our deal here or anything, but have you thought about bringing the attic into the habitable space as a cathedral ceiling, properly insulated? Just a thought.
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Good idea to raise the ceiling, I can't stand an 8' piece of trim upright in this house. However, even though my husband is a lawyer, we certainly can't afford to do that. And I'm not sure I'd like to interfere with the integrity of the ceiling joists. Given some of the sloppiness I've found in the renovation, I'm not sure the house would still be standing if we took out the ceiling. I know--get an engineer in to look at it. It'd be easier to add on to the side of the house. I've also thought about using the upstairs as a real upstairs, maybe with a dormer, but there's no place to put a stairway. This house is SMALL. But the property is beautiful. 2 ponds, 14 acres of trees, can't have everything.
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May be easier than you think. just get an honest contractor ... oh, forget it.
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Fred,
Your comment on the craziness of entering a burning attic is right on. But unfortunately, that's how it's done. There are two reasons for this. The first is that it can be done safely if the fire is small and there is a crew on the roof to chop a hole near the peak directly above the fire just as the FFs go up. This vents the smoke and heat and makes the fire visible. Secondly, trying to extinguish a fire from a hole in the roof is the best and fastest way to burn down the whole structure. Spraying water at a fire drives it away, so shooting down through the roof on the top of a fire will drive it down and back into the house. Similarly, if you ever see an attached garage catch fire, the line crew goes in through the front door of the house and pushes the fire back into the garage from the utility room.
Back to homebuilding. Any of you folks commonly repair fire damage? How do you fix a burned-out room? I mean really burned out so that the studs and cieliing joists are eroded away? Also, what do you do about the smell?
Bob
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What makes you think that the work you want to do in the
immediate future is the last work you'll ever do there? Why
give yourself access headaches to the work you'll be doing?
Here in Mass. no attic space can be sealed without access.
Don't be shortsighted.
*I'd never get away with closing off an attic. The building inspectors won't even let me close off an attic space over a carport. If there's ever an electrical fire in the attic, the fire department must have access.There are also requirements as to access size. I don't know these off the top of my head but I always make the access two joist bays wide (31-1/2") and the same length.
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We have a smallish bungalow, that was originally a flat tar and gravel roof. The previous owners added a hip roof. The only access to the "attic" created is through the hole that used to contain the chimney for the franklin stove that we threw out the first year we were here. I'm getting tired of the piece of cardboard I duct-taped over the hole, and am considering covering this hole in the living room with A) drywall and try to stucco it to match the rest B) finished wood panel that looks better than the piece of cardboard.
Am I asking for trouble if we permanently close off the attic. We don't really want to create a hidden access in a bedroom closet; this is a roof we would have to cut through, not just a ceiling.
I've seen spray stucco in a can, does anyone have experience with it for a small area. The ceiling is that "sprayed-on, falls off if you touch it" stuff.
First of all, of course, we have to vent the bathroom and kitchen fans out through the soffits before we close it off, as they now just vent into the "attic". Why are people so CHEAP when they renovate?
If you're wondering why we bought it, the property is really nice.