I was visiting a customers home and saw some of the trim I installed last summer, crown moulding as well as waincote. It has shrunk so much that it has pulled the painters caulk and paint away fromthe wall. They’re not mad, as far as I can tell, but I’m dissapointed with it. Less than a year old and looks terrible. I know some movement in the wood is natural, but what can be done to minimize the effect. I would like to know for this one as well as for future ones. Joe
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Did you acclimate the trim to the home's conditions prior to installation?
Most homes/locations dry out in the winter and of course, the trim dries out as well. A couple cycles can push all the cauking out of a joint leaving a lump on the trim.
I do three things: aclimate the trim, prime both both sides with Bullseye shellac based primer, and seal all cuts with Titebond II or the same primer. The wood will still move a bit through long, dry or humid periods, but it will move less.
Moisture moves in and out most freely from the end grain so at the very least, I always seal my cuts before nailing.
YMMV
Jim
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.
- Fyodor Dostoyevski
does titebond work as a sealer for your cuts? I've never heard of this method before now, seems interesting though.Justin Fink
FHB Editorial
Titebond II and Titebond III are water resistant.
DON'T GIVE THAT INFO AWAY! Sell it to the tips section in FHB.
This space for rent.
Yesssir it does.
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.- Fyodor Dostoyevski
You said painter's caulk, so I'm assuming the job is painted (as opposed to stained). If it pulled way from the wall, my guess is that the trim was not fastened to the wall very well. Another factor could be cheap caulk. Personally I hate "painter's caulk" because, to me, that basically means the cheapest thing available - you know, the $1.29 a tube stuff...
Another posibility is that the trim was not primed before it was caulked in. If you caulk raw wood, as it was explained to me by a good painter, the moisture/solvents, etc in the caulk soak into the wood and the caulk looses some of it's elasticity.
As a side note, some trim guys don't realize it, but IMO it is actually better to NOT make some of your trim joints real tight on paint grade jobs. A sixteenth of an inch gap at inside corners, etc, is better because then the caulk can go into the joint, thereby producing a thicker caulk bond between the 2 'boards'. The thicker caulk joint has more elasticity than a thin layer that is only on the surface. Of course, outside corners, casing miters, etc, should be tight and glued.
You need to allow materials time to acclimate.....two weeks minimum.
I have my mouldings delivered to the jobsite as the framing comes to an end.
If its a small project...maybe a couple windows or doors where you won`t even be on the jobsite for that amount of time, I have the materials delivered a week or so prior to starting the job.
Priming prior to installation also helps...especially the end grain.
Todays wood is much less stable than in years past... so the acronym "PPPPPPP" applies even moreso nowadays.
JDRHI
A few years ago I aquired about 600 lin/ft of crown from a jobsite(wrong trim package delivered)Contractor said "Guys,help yourselves"Finger-jointed,primed trim.Did my living-room and hall.The stuff moves like vinyl sidding.Thinking about installing expansion joints!I repaired joints with window glazing.Seems to work better than chalk and use latex paint.
stop ! stop ! stop!
what is all this about allowing it to "acclimate" ?
he installed it in the summer.. the RH was about 70 %
now it's winter.. and the house is sealed up and the rh is probably 10 % - 20 %
the moisture content of the wood is probably OFF the scale.. but at least down aroun 6%..
there is NOTHING that will stop that wood and ALL the wood in the house from shrinking under those conditions.. no sealing.. no backpriming.. nothing !
the homeowner should be adcised to humidify his home and bring it back to where it belongs in the winter.. RH of 30 % to 50%
acllimate this
Wow, missed yer nap today?
;~)
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.- Fyodor Dostoyevski
no.. just the middle of March.... and all the homes without humidification are shrunk up like a prune..
usually the builder gets blamed... when they have nothing to do with it
bet if the poster checks, he'll find the furniture is falling apart alsoMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
good anwser, especially this past summer. I think it rained 29 of 31 days in july
Air conditioning is a wonderful thing.
Pull trim fresh out of the lumber yard and install it in a conditioned house... and it will do exactly as described.
I took the original post as a "decorating upgrade (crown and wainscoat)"... thus the acclimation question.
Have an acclimated day.
well, that 's one scenario
me, i took it that the average house in winter is a boneyard in the sahara
and wood and respiratory systems don't fare too well..
would you believe it's one of my per peeves ?
it's also one of the reasons i'm not sold on RFH... which is great heat but does nothing for the humidity...
i'm thinking central air with all the bells and whistles is the answerMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
The only thing I am sold on for RFH is in areas that have no carpeting... makes the feet all happy when walking over them!
Humidity is an issue in most houses... no matter where they are located. My house is a prime example... too much in summer.. too little in winter. Working on that.
If this was a new build... I agree with you that the summer-time installation would create a perfect climate for problems. But even in a new build... I like to have the air on for at least a week prior to installing trim; with the materials in the space.
Knock on wood (pun intended)... I have only been called back to do warranty on one trim job... and that was entirely my fault. Too tight on a few corners... bowed that oak baseboard right off the wall (amazing the pressure that that stuff will exert) when the owners had the air off for an extended vacation in the summer (3 months)!
Edited 3/10/2005 6:16 pm ET by Rich from Columbus
rich.. we don't have that much A/C .. but we're getting more of it
looks like we have to educate our customers about wood.. and moisture contentMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Finally! I get to disagree with Master MIKE!
Yes... the framing shrinks... the trim shrinks... plaster and drywall don't.
That's why we backprime...and yes, seal the end cut with glue.
Most important part Mr Fink... cope the joints in the right places. Know which joints show and which don't. If you cope the right way the joints that expand and contract are hidden from view!
Be Well Gang.
L
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
lawrence... i been backpriming, endpriming and edgepriming since 1978..
we are the king of backpriming.. we have coffee cans with primer and chip brushes as part of our setup on all trim work
when a house starts to dry out , it begins as soon as you turn the heat on and close it up in the fall.. by january... the framing has shrunk, the baseboard is sitting high above the oakfloor, the casings are opening, the dining room table legs are loose..
i really got into this when a good builder friend of mine came to me with a problem:
they had built a nice colonial..and done their usual great job on the carpentry work ( he's got a great trim guy ).. the owner was talking lawsuit because everything in the house was falling apart... all the trim was away from the floor, big gaps everywhere.
i walked around with him .. measured joists, did some moisture content of the woodwork..
the 9 3/8 joists were now 8 5/8 to 8 3/4.... the moistue content of the woodwork was 5%..
and sitting in the family room wa a big cheery woodstove.. their primary heat source.
i told him about humidification, and different solutions.. the owner slowly got the house back into equilibrium, and my buddy's well deserved reputation was preservedMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
This thread is definatly one for the archives. It should come back to the top every November.
This space for rent.
Ok Mike... you live in the driest spot in North America... you don't see wood under 12% anywhere around here... (great lakes region). Had lumber drying in the shop for 5 years... 12-14% even though it was roofed and stickered.
I believe you-I guess lip balm is a big business there!
L
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
lawrence.. yup .. lip balm is a big seller.. i've usually got about 5 of them by the end of winter
but i find it hard to believe that it's any different in any of the states with climates as cold as ours or colder... your's is colder , right ?
how much moisture does 5 degree air hold ?
that's what drives it... the outside air moisture content is so low.. and the interior heating system is so dry.. the wood shrinks...
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
The great lakes pick up maximum moisture-it falls as squalls. We get about 8-15' of snow yearly and during the thaws the air gets thick with moisture. Only in the really cold spells does anything dry out... but that is only for a couple of weeks at a time.
We get about 50 freeze thaw cycles each winter. Hard on deck finish... and anything outdoors.
L
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
Thanks for all the advice, everyone. Sorry I didn't respond sooner, been away. In the original post, I had crown and wainscote with a raised trim applied to the perimeter. Painter caulked it in after prime, one side only. Looked good all summer, they do have a/c. Mid to end winter, it all opens up. There is also things moving that I never touched. Not so much worried about this one, I told then to get a humidifier, was real curious about the next one. All the advice was good.
Yeah......I`m pretty sure I can sell the HO on a system to humidify his home, in order to keep mitered joints tight.
"Yes....I realize it is quite expensive......but , my joints will stay nice and tight"
I`ll use that one next time instead of, "Powder room, shmowder room....we`ll knock down that fargin wall and get ya both a shower and jacuzzi in here".
PS......yer breathin` problems aint due to yer heatin`....yer just gettin` old ya cranky old bastage!JDRHI
jay..our humidifier lives in the basement during the non-heating season.. as soon as i turn the heat on in the fall it comes back upstairs to the front hall..
it's a console humidifier.... puts out about 5 gal/day it cost about $170.. this one is 5 years old.. the one before that was 10 years old..
i work in a lot of houses .. if it's interior work.. i take the owners on a tour..measure joists... examine trim joints..
that built-in library we did last year ?... they had 1/2" joints on their stairwell trim..the oak floors had huge gaps..
they bought the same console humidifier we use... and slowly got thier home back into equilibrium
moisture control is so important for woodwork and for your healthMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Shrinkage? Shrinkage? Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
signed,
George Costanza
"Preach the Gospel at all times; if necessary, use words." - St. Francis of Assisi
I am doing a house that has hydronic radiators, ergo, no humidity control. In CT, the winter is from Nov. to March ...or more. The painter didn't get there in time for summer lst year, and interior french doors that fit sweetly expanded and of course, no longer closed. Ugg...
As much as possible, for this house at least, with it's humidity swings (no AC in the humid summer either) I have chosen MDF for whatever i can. And it has really helped. The baseboards are big...7" plus...shrinkage with preprimed stuff is tough to control no matter the prep. I am doing lots of paneled waiscotting, and the MDF has been much more stable. True, I have to rip the stuff when I could use preprimed stuff that is already the right size, which is a pain, and prime it both sides, but it's not the end of the world, and the stuff installs nicely.
Of course, crown and such is tough, but the gapping has been minor and, while I don't like any gapping, the other new, or semi new houses that I go in for research (gotta see what the rest of the world does) display far greater. I do use MDF crown "beds" and use smaller actual preprimed crown, which also helps minimize the shrinkage, while getting exactly the look I am after. The end grain priming is a pain and I bet lots of guys skip that step..I have heard guys on other crews mutter.."Ahhh let the painter worry about shrinkage..thats what caulk is for"
I think Mike has it nailed. A little client education is in order, but it aint fun! We all want to do "good work" don't we?
Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
Edited 3/10/2005 11:06 pm ET by LATEAPEX911
Another angle might be to use Big Stretch caulk, which is made by Sashco. It can stretch up to 500% without failing.
Here in NC, houses shrink in the winter and swell in the summer, AC or no AC.
I agree with everyone about sealing, backprimimg, acclimation, education of the homeowner, etc. I often glue joints but I'm not so sure short grain to short grain holds very well however.
The only other point I'd add here is that some types of wood (and non-wood products) shrink less than others. I put paint grade pine crown in my living room and used poplar in the den -- just one room away. Big difference in the winter joints.
Norse