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The last couple of years we have been experiencing a problem with kitchen counter tops that we installed in new homes that we built. It seem that we scibe the counter top perfectly, but with-in a year we have gaps appearing. Since it seems that the gaps are larger on outside walls which are 2×6 one may think of damp framing materials, but 2 of the houses that had the problem had hardwood floors installed and the installer ran a dehumidifier to dry out the homes before installing his wood floor. Needless to say, the hardwood flooring did’nt show any signs of shrinkage. Any suggestions.
Thanks, Dave
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Don't worry about trying to stop what you aren't responsible for. You did your job to your satisfaction and what happens with the natural process of time shouldn't deter from a job well done.
I'm still working on trying to find out where that one sock always goes when I know I put it in the dryer with it's sole mate.
*Dave,Framing lumber can be quite "wet" when the walls are framed. I don't know if the use of a dehumidifer will dry it out completely. Some is so wet it could take up to two years to completely dry out.Joseph FuscoView Image
*dave, could you let the counter top "float" to move with the outside walls. Attach it to the exterior wall cabs and it should move with the wall and slide along the interior walls and cabinets. Also consider using laminated studs on these critical walls.Hope this is helpful.Matt
*It's an old joke, but those socks are with Christ.Dennis
*Thats why they invented backsplashes, to hide that joint. Use a flexible caulk at the backsplas joint.Blue
*I would beg to differ, Gabe. Dave built the house so he is responsible for the whole thing. Anything that reflects badly on him, whether it's the result of natural processes or not ought to at least be investigated. Then he can either try to minimize the damage or at least be able to explain it to the customer's satisfaction.I'm a little surprised that the counter and cabinets don't move with the wall. The tops of the base cabinets are screwed to the wall, and the counter to the cabinets right? Why wouldn't it all move as a unit?I put a two-year guarantee on my projects and make absolutely no fuss about repairing things. It's amazing how fast a little indifference can negate all the good will you've worked hard to develop.Steve
*Dave, I'd consider it my problem, too, if I did the building, wanted referrals, and was trying to do the best job possible.I've had it happen, also. Here' my take on it. After the insulation's in, housewrap, siding and drywall are on, it takes awhile for that framing sandwich to dry out. This seems to happen more in the winter, especially when kerosene heaters are used to dry the sheetrock mud. The interior skin of mud hardens before the rest dries (mmmm the gooey center). Now there is extra moisture in the walls(and, it does seem to pass through the plastic vapor barrier). The sheetrock gets painted, which seals the inside even more. Eventually the framing loses its moisture and shrinks. Countertops are pretty stable if they are in an L or U shape between walls. They are not moving no matter how well they are fastened to the cabinets. Ergo, a crack at the splash. Contrary to popular belief, the reason backsplashes were invented, is just as the name implies. On the other hand, flexible caulk WAS invented to deal with these kind of cracks.I've also had problems with the sheetrock not being tightly fastened to the framing. Seems the sheetrock hangers figured the cabinet installer would pull every thing tight. It doesn't always work that way.And, as if all this weren't enough, even the best built house moves! It's alive, it's alive!!!!BB
*Blue how I wish that all counter tops had a back splash with them.
*Dave was wondering if these tops are Wilson art stuff? Have had problems like you with these.
*BillWilsonart is just the laminate, used by the countertop manufacturer. . . as is whatever grade of p/bd he uses. . . doesn't sound like a countertop manufacturing problem to me. . . more likely poor install coupled with shrinkage, but as someone else pointed out the lowers are attached to the wall ( or are they??) and the top to the lowers. . . so it should all move when and if the wall shrinks. . . hmmm!! Could the floor possibly be moving/sagging tipping the lowers & counter away from the wall, because the lowers aren't actually attached to anything but themselves, or maybe screwed into open stud space??? Maybe a few shims under the toe kick at gable joins would lift it all back up into place.
*New construction in my region shrinks incredibly for the first few winters...People move into 3000sqft homes and sell 1500sqfters!Seriously, it's shrinkage of the all framing involved.Jack : )
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We put in about 300 to 500 kitchens a year in new homes here in New England and as far as I know they all have the same problem of shrinkage, some more than others. You will find that most of the shrinkage will happen in the first full heating season the house goes through. This is because you are drying out the lumber. We are building tighter houses with lumber that is wetter and has more knots than it used to so you are getting more movement than we used to get.
If anyone has a good solution to this problem I sure could use the info . We use caulking when we install all our tops but the movement we get is way more than any caulking can stretch especially on peninsulas where it crosses so many joists.
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Bobb
Just
i what
is shrinking that would cause a countertop to seperate from a wall so much that a bead of caulk wouldn't cover it??? As I wrote in my post above
i ". . . as someone else pointed out the lowers are attached to the wall ( or are they??) and the top to the lowers. . . so it should all move when and if the wall shrinks."
Blaming it on shrinking joists just doesn't do it for me, now if you wanted to blame a soggy countertop. . . maybe the particle board isn't as dry/stable as it once was??? Maybe countertops need to aclimate now, like trim and flooring ???
-Patrick
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You....have two...schwartzes at virk...er...forces...at work...here....
A...The shrinkage of the framing studding/ attachment to the wall....and...
B. The shrinkage / movement of the floor joists......The cabs..are moving..down...and away..from the wall...
3/16 on 1 + 3/16 on the other...=......3/8 inch...
I....always...talk my clients...into KD framing lumber...Labor is the same....but...the call backs..are much fewer...I also live..in a place..where the clients..can afford it...the cost...is not that dear...considering the benefit...
DN
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Ya mean these guys are using
i GREEN
lumber??? Where do they buy. . . Homer Depot? I think green lumber went the way of Kraft backed f/g here in Ontario. . . can you say Dodo bird???' or is that "doh-doh boid"
*Patrick,From my NYC experience western fir is always used green and dripping with water...J
*Patrick,You oughta try using green, rough-cut eastern hemlock 2x6's! I wind up using rough cut in a lot of my restoration work around here. It's often 1/4" different from stick to stick, and boy does it shrink!Steve
*SteveI framed my own cabin many moons ago out of eastern hemlock from a small local mill, planned, but green. . . returned to the stockpile a year or so later and learned quickly how much easier it is to nail the green stuff. . . properly dried it's like trying to nail oak!!!
*Just a thought, has anyone gone with a backslash seperate from the counter. I use this often in remodels. I normally put silcone on the bottom of the back splash and liquid nails along the back. I then use pieces of 2x and clamps to jamb it to the wall tight.Maybe it would help, esspecially without the silicone. Or the paper could rip.
*Ai sliding dovetailbacksplash. . . I like it!!
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Gentlemen,
Just here to give you a little insight on the reasons for green lumber, and why that's about all you'll be seeing in the future.
The bottom line is PROFIT. I live in a very unique region of the country. We are smack dab in the middle of one of the largest timber regions in the US, and we have a major port here as well. In a 50 mile radius, we have 6 MAJOR timber company mills. (Temple-Inland, Georgia Pacific, Louisiana Pacific, Kirby, Weyerhauser, and Setco)
In these mills you can see what terrible lumber is being cut and shipped. The biggest two problems that we face are 1)Cutting of new growth trees for lumber, and 2)Shipping the best lumber, even kiln dried, to Canada, Japan, and China. That's right...we ship the MAJORITY of our wood overseas, and keep the rest.
The timber companies are after the profit, and to keep the profits high they must sell both foreign and domestic. Foreign buyers won't accept junk wood, so they get the best. We, on the other hand, seem to take junk wood as part of the status quo. Until we, as consumers, refuse to buy the junk wood being offered, then the timber companies will continue to sell the junk to us.
The average pine lumber leaving the sawmill is about 28% to 30% moisture content. This is UNBELIEVABLY high. It should be about 12% to 19% when leaving the mill.
Another two items for your delight.
1) The mills here make a tremendous amount of CCA treated lumber. You wouldn't believe what they do in peak selling seasons to accomodate all of the orders. You think you are buying treated Southern Yellow Pine. Well...you are actually buying a lot of Sweetgum. When cut and processed, it looks very, very close to pine. Same grain pattern, same weight, etc... Problem is, after it starts to dry out and cure, it warps and twists WAY more than pine. There is an over abundance of Sweetgum in our area, and this is one way that the timber companies have managed to take a useless tree and make a profit.
2)A very large amount of pine trees here are cut down and cut up into chips. The chips are then sent to the port and shipped to Japan, and China. An unbelievable amount of trees are cut for this purpose. We get what's left.
Oh the joys of being in the construction business in the new millenium!!!
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James
i "Shipping the best lumber, even kiln dried, to Canada, Japan, and China. That's right...we ship the MAJORITY of our wood overseas, and keep the rest."
Funny thing about that is that if you were to ask any Canadian woodworker he would say exactly the same thing only substitute the U.S. as the prime offshore market. So if you're not getting it, and we're not getting it, just exactly what are the Asians
b doing
with all this
i prime material???
Actually I think you're forgetting about the Germans and Scandinavians. . . a common complaint amongst woodworkers that I know is that the Scandinavians are getting all the good pine (and you Americans the good Spruce & ply.) and selling it back over here as modular furniture!!! Although it seems to me that they use more particle bd/veneer in their products. Maybe the myth of the
i good lumber
going elsewhere is a universal complaint, when in fact there ain't no good stuff left. . . anywhere.
In Ontario, the lumber barons are sucessfully lobbying to cut even more in previously sacrosanct(?) provincial parks and other public trusts. . ."Blue's" lack of blocking, and Gene's 2x3 walls are just a drop in the bucket. . . maybe if we all started framing with steel we could put the SOB's outa business, but what a nasty thought.
-Patrick
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It also may have nothing to do with Moisture at all. It could be that now that the base cabinets are loaded with probably 400 pounds of stuff the joist under the base cabinet apron is now deflecting. When you lightly bounce up and down on the floor does the gap behind the countertop vary? Framing cannot possibly shrink THAT much or the casing on all the trim in the house would start popping off. If an oak floor is involved it COULD be that constant too damp mopping expanded the floor to the point of pushing the sole plate of the wall. I actually had a repair where a persistant unattended plumbing leak in a home onto a hardwood floor had pushed an exterior bearing wall a full inch off the band joist. I had to cut back the flooring to be able to adjust the wall back to its original location. as my sledgehammmer was bouncing off the plate and it WASNT going back.
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The last couple of years we have been experiencing a problem with kitchen counter tops that we installed in new homes that we built. It seem that we scibe the counter top perfectly, but with-in a year we have gaps appearing. Since it seems that the gaps are larger on outside walls which are 2x6 one may think of damp framing materials, but 2 of the houses that had the problem had hardwood floors installed and the installer ran a dehumidifier to dry out the homes before installing his wood floor. Needless to say, the hardwood flooring did'nt show any signs of shrinkage. Any suggestions.
Thanks, Dave