OK, the title is a little misleading. I don’t have siding questions per se. I spent last week at JLCLive in Providence doing siding installation clinics for the Western Red Cedar Lumber Association. There’s a fair chance I’ll get to do it again next year, but they’d like to freshen the menu.
So, what vexes you guys about installing cedar siding? What aren’t you sure of? Are there details you’d like to see demonstrated? What would make you sit down for 45 minutes of me talking?
Thanks,
Andy
“Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.” Robert A. Heinlein
“Get off your dead
Replies
What would make you sit down for 45 minutes of me talking?
a line at the bathroom.
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Not a question, just a statement. I was chatting with an old friend catching up recently. He told me of a house he worked on for my former employer. Lee (my buddy) used to do lots of siding but age is now prohibitive. He laughed about this crew doing cedar on my old a*$&#le boss's job that they blind nailed all of it.
Plain old cedar beveled siding. 6 inch exposure. Lee told both they crew and the GC about the wrongs of such installation, but to no avail. The siding is presently ready to fall off the walls while litigation is in process. HO is suing for several items. OH, siders used 1 1/2 roofers into OSB for fasteners.
Granted, this is hearsay. I know the house, but haven't been close. I know the installers and it doesn't surprise me. I know the GC very well. When I left 4 years agao, I was the last employee. Everything is subbed. Trying to do high end homes avg of 4000 sq ft with no jobsite control. Litigation.
I get paid to do carpentry. That makes me a professional.
If I work on my own house does that make me a DIY?
My biggest concern regarding cedar siding has always been how long before it can be finished?....(painted or stained.)
I've bought it pre-primed, and still had bleeding after the finish paint was applied.
Sit for 45 minutes?
They serving brews?
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Wood literally should not see the light of day before it's finished. Sunlight very quickly degrades the lignin which holds together the cellulose fibers, ruining the wood's ability to hold paint. I'm talking two weeks at the most. That's why no clear finish will ever last outside. Clear finishes don't block UV. The UV degrades the lignin, the clear finish peels. The best approach is machine priming before shipment, and carefully priming the end cuts using a stain blocking primer specifically intended for use with cedar and redwood.
If you end primed, and stored the siding correctly, you should not have experienced extractive bleed through machine primed siding. About the only things I can think of that might allow that to happen would be if you'd left it in the sun for longer than the primer was rated for (Usually 30 to 60 days), or if the finisher used an improper primer, or if the siding was at too great a moisture content when it was finished.
Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
Thanks Andy.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
does the james hardie company do installation seminars?
for FC siding?
They were at JLCLive in Providence last week.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
I am not too overexcited about cedar siding myself... Down here I usually prefer Hardie plank or cypress. Vinyl isn't in my vocabulary.
Cedar doesn't do well in New Orleans for two reasons, burning fungus (yes fungus) and Formosan termites....
I actually have to put in a bid this week on a 100 year old house that someone remuddled and partially replaced some of the original cypress siding with Hardie plank and then finished the job with cedar in some places when they ran out of the cement stuff. The cedar needs to get replaced with more of the Hardieplank because a burning fungus rotted out the cedar under the paint.
Edited 3/27/2006 9:33 pm ET by woodnutter
Yeah, you have special problems down there. I do hear that even the Formosan termites won't eat Alaskan yellow cedar, however. It's a different genus from the western red, and has different properties. It's supposedly used quite a bit in Hawaii, which might have even a bigger Formosan termite problem than the Gulf Coast.
Actually, I'm interested in hearing about concerns regarding any wood siding. Sure, each species has unique charactaristics. But many of the installation issues are mechanical in nature - fastening, flashing, drainage planes, etc. Anyone have concerns or comments, for example, on installing vertical T&G siding? Caulking (Don't, on cedar at least)? Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
Anyone have concerns or comments, for example, on installing vertical T&G siding? Caulking (Don't, on cedar at least)?Ok, are you saying not to caulk cedar siding? No caulk, no C.O., here.As far as keeping professionals captivated for 45 min, maybe Heidi from Tool Time as the installer???<G>I'd stick with the tricks and tips for making the installs last longer: flashing details, no split fastening methods, rain screen, finshes that actually last...and show some of that famous, but elusive degraded Tyvek, ha!Seriously, as much cedar as I deal with, I'd sit if you had a bag of tricks...or quaaludes<G> Hey, pocket doors can't come off the track if they're nailed open
Well, the next time the WRCLA publishes standards, they're probably going to reference the recent research done by the USDA's Forest Products Lab that shows caulking joints in the field, at doors and windows, corner boards, wherever - is more likely to trap water behind it and cause paint to peel than it is to keep water out. The new industry standard is going to be sealing the end grain with a stain blocking primer intended for cedar and making a nice, tight joint. No caulk.
Where do you build? I've never once had an inspector check for caulk, and I'd be very surprised to see a published code requirement for it. Waterproof detailing, yes. But caulk never does that.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
Hey Andy, I build in NC. I think they'd like to see the entire house wrapped in caulk, but as far as siding: all butt joints, corner board/window/door intersections, soffits, undersides of fascia, beam wraps...nothing goes uncaulked. I'll look in the book, can't remeber anything there...or I'll find out from one of the horses' mouths<G> Hey, pocket doors can't come off the track if they're nailed open
Thanks - That's interesting. I'd love to hear what you find out.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
As to the degraded Tyvek, go to JLCOnline, click research, go to the search. Set it on entire site, and search the phrase housewrap extractive. It'll bring up a Notebook section on research by Fisette and Lstiburek that you might find interesting.
Now, I've seen degraded housewrap behind raw cedar. Whether the two were related isn't a conclusion I can draw from just those two bits of information. I can tell you though that the housewrap was stained brown, and I could tear it with my hands. Could be that it was left out in the sun for too long. The house was built in the late '80s when cedar was hard to come by.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
I have always had questins about storing it to keep it flat, stacking it correctly, when it is dry enough to use, how to deal with lumber companies that just middleman it and don;t know the grade and length options. Occasionally I get a shell to build on a cedar house and usually put on western red channell rusti 1"x8", it's a shiplap and the lap when it's dry splits in a heartbeat or the whole board cups. Same and more questins apply with the cedar square edge materials, let 'em dry too long and it's just won't stay flat, put it up damp and the joints shrink.
Edited 3/28/2006 9:35 pm ET by shellbuilder
I happen to really like cedar, biggest cmplaint (after the price) is the way it splits.
What would it take to make me listen to you for 45 minutes? A really good agenda, a goodie bag and maybe a couple beers. <G>
Don K
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
I really think houses that have wood siding when sold- should have a disclosure statement you have to sign about all the coming maintenance
Truth is, most maintenence problems with cedar siding are related to poor installation and improper finishing. It's not unreasonable to expect 20 years out of a paint job if the siding installer did his job well.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
"It's not unreasonable to expect 20 years out of a paint job if the siding installer did his job well."You might catch hell for tht statement, but I'll back you up on it. Up here on coastal houses, with properly instaled and painted siding, we fully expect ten years before touching up paint but many do go twernty years...And we see poorly done work that is failing in 2-3 years
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
It really is a pay me now or pay me later thing.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
Free beer?
I would want to know about:
-Rainscreen design
-Butt joints vs. scarf joints in the field
-Flash or caulk above?
-Caulking at butt with trim or no?
-finger joint vs. solid
Thanks. Rainscreens are a big topic. Get the current JLC.
Scarf joint, with end grain primed.
Flash. No caulk.
No caulk at butts. More likely to trap water than to keep it out.
Your choice. Cedar is about the most stable wood going, so FJ is less likely to telegraph than with other woods. Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom