Replies

1. 
   daFarmerDave | Oct 14, 2004 11:15pm | #1

   Have you started using those double romex connectors yet?

1. 
   greggo | Oct 14, 2004 11:46pm | #2

   Do you mean doubling up on a single connector Dave?Like two-14/2 or two-12/2 on one connector?

   Greg

1. 
   BillHartmann | Oct 15, 2004 12:03am | #3

   Yes.

   You need to check the packaging for the specs.

   But here is a common 3/8"

   http://www.bptfittings.com/catalog/651-dc2.shtml

   Low profile design allows side to side installation in panels. For use with one or two 14/2 NM-B cables, or one 12/2 through 10/3 NM-B cable. The use of one combination Phillips/slotted head screw instead of two screws along with hinged strap reduces installation time. Serrated locknut with cut thread assures tight assembly to box or enclosure. Patented.

1. 
   greggo | Oct 15, 2004 01:13am | #4

   Hi Bill:

   I have been using the same thing but with two screws instead of one.Although I think I got a couple of them with two 12/2 cables going in them

   While I'm at it why do the manufactures make the panels so darn small,as in not a heck of a lot of room to run your wires?

   IF I got a 40 space(breaker) panel.15 knockout slots on top and use 14/2 cable thru out.Two cables per 3/8s connector,that's 30 lines coming in.They don't give you a lot of room to work with.

   Shouldn't it be 20 or more knockouts on top?and a little more room to run them all?Or are they thinking that some of the cables coming in will be on  two pole breakers and they wont need the knockouts?

   Thanks Bill

   Greg

1. 
   Sphere | Oct 15, 2004 01:35am | #6

   well, if they made them wider, ya'd have a helluva time fitting between studs. 

   Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

   Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations. 

2. 
   greggo | Oct 15, 2004 02:09am | #7

   Slap me in the head for that one sphere(lol)                                 or

   could they make a model for surface mount?and make it a little bigger?

   Thanks Greg 

2. 
   daFarmerDave | Oct 15, 2004 01:32am | #5

   Like Hartman said, yeah.

   I am just another jackleg, but I would think if you were to trim the insulation back to just where it goes under the screws that hold the mechanical stress of the wire in the romex connector, then you could for sure get two 12-2 circuits through one 3/8 knock out. 

   OTH, they put kock outs on the side and the botom of the box for a reason, no?

   What I like about these kinda places is somebody always chimes in when I'm wrong.  :)

1. 
   greggo | Oct 15, 2004 02:17am | #8

   Dave :  Yep I see them there.I guess I was trying to ask what is the neater way to do it.I was thinking of snaking the remaining cables behind the plywood  that the panel is attached to.Notch out a slot ,then feed the cables into the bottom of the panel through the knockouts. 

2. 
   pm22 | Oct 15, 2004 03:32am | #9

   Chime time. I'm not a residential electrician but I think you're supposed to leave about 1/4" of the sheath of the Romex [NMB] cable showing inside the panel.

   Another approach to the problem is to make more holes. Aside from a .50 caliber machine gun, there are roughly 3 ways to do this.

   1] Use a 7/8" hole saw.

   2] Use a step drill [aka Unibit] which goes up to 7/8".

   3] Use a hole punch such as Greenlee 7211BB-1/2. HD sells these as a kit. It's kinda fun. You drill a 3/8" and insert the stud and screw on the punch. Then you use a 1" wrench or ratchet and crank it the rest of the way and -- viola! -- you have a neat 7/8" hole.

   ~Peter

   I invented the hole.

1. 
   HeavyDuty | Oct 15, 2004 04:52am | #10

   >>Chime time. I'm not a residential electrician but I think you're supposed to leave about 1/4" of the sheath of the Romex [NMB] cable showing inside the panel.

   Absolutely. About 1/8 - 1/4 emerging from the clamp. Clamping on individual wire insulation is against code.

   There should be enough holes in a panel, no need to invent more.

2. 
   Mitremike | Oct 15, 2004 07:58am | #12

   Does it matter with steps 1,2,3 if the panel is already 99 per. wired when you discover your 2 holes short? Oh BTW a 50 cal. won't do it---It 's only a half of an inch. LOL

   I always use the siders nail holes as pilots to get me started....J/K Mike

3. 
   pm22 | Oct 16, 2004 02:28am | #14

   1, 2 and 3 are different procedures for creating circular absences in the the material in question. They are not steps, as I'm sure you know, but I just wanted to make things clear for the moles out there.

   The main thing you have to worry about is drilling into the wires. So push them out of the way. Also, it is not liked to have the chips and shavings tumble down into the works or guts of the panel. A common apprentice solution is to put a piece of cardboard in there.

   As for the .50 cal machine gun, you will have to use hollow point bullets which expand to 0.875" upon contact.

   ~Peter

4. 
   Mitremike | Oct 16, 2004 04:18am | #15

   Funny stuff about the .50 cal--Was a APC track commander in the Army and our defense weapon was a M2 Talk about reaching out and touching someone.

   I could see someone boring away with a uni-bit and run that baby right into a live circuit. Coffee? No thank you---I'm not sleepy right now!!!!

   Keep up the good work. Mike

2. 
   4Lorn1 | Oct 15, 2004 05:05am | #11

   I usually use die-cast connectors that go into 1/2", 7/8" diameter, KOs. These are tough, reliable and provide very good protection of the cables as they go through sharp edges of the KO.

   Each of these easily accept two runs of 12/2 or 14/2 romex. Alternately each will take a single 14/3, 12/3 or 10/2. No stuffing or forcing to get the jackets at least 1/4" into the box. I will combine the 12/2 with 12/2 or 14/2 with 14/2. 12 with 14 only in a pinch. Never 14 or 12/3, round cable, with a flat as this can concentrate stress on the four-wire run.

   On the flat cables the clamps seldom, if a little care is used, cause problems. The four-wire cables, 14/3 or 12/3, because the wires cross, require a lighter touch.

   Plastic push-in connectors, Arlington has black ones that are good, can be used similarly but they provide less protection and care has to be used to make sure the cable doesn't drift away from the center of the connector toward the potentially damaging edge of the KO. These units do have readily available ratings for what can be stuffed into them if questions are asked.

   The die-cast units, as far as I have found, don't have similar ratings but I have yet to find an inspector who objects to this as long as it is done neatly and with some care to avoid stressing the runs or crimping the cables.

   There also PVC connectors of various designs, some with multiple slots for romex, but I have found these to be unreliable. I have seen some of them lack enough flexibility to allow them to be installed without breaking them. Others crack or degrade in time. Some just fall out. All of these, when they fail, can leave the tender romex jackets and insulation exposed to the sharp edges of the KO. Shorts from this sort of situation are not uncommon.

1. 
   greggo | Oct 15, 2004 04:22pm | #13

   Hey 4Lorn1:Hows it going?

   I'm probably using the same diecast connectors as you,they seem to work fine.Is there a code about mixing a 14/3 with a 14/2 on a connector.I didn't realize that it might cause stress on the wire.I should have looked on the box for the specs(lol)

   Doe's going thru the bottom of the panel seem the (next) best way to route the cables.I don't have to drill any holes I got plenty of knockouts on the side and bottom,just not sure which is the better way.

1. 
   4Lorn1 | Oct 30, 2004 04:02am | #16

   I prefer to get the 21/2 in with the 12/2 and the 14/2 with the 14/2. Putting a 12/2 with a 14/2 shouldn't cause any problems as long as you don't go nuts tightening the connector. More a question of neatness and organization than a practical concern.

   12/3 and 13/3 are more an issue. Checking the packaging that comes with the connectors and common sense is always a good thing. The key thing to remember is that cables move when loaded and unloaded because of electro-magnetic forces. The greater the current change the more they move.

   Over time even a slight shift repeated can wear through jackets and insulation. Eventually causing a short. Cables need to be cradled, cushioned and protected from rough or sharp edges. Connectors do serve to keep cables, and their jackets, in boxes and panels but a cable in a wall is unlikely to be yanked out. Mostly they protect the cable from the edges of the hole.

   Top or bottom is fine and common. Whichever is easiest. In the side is less common mostly because the panels are typically mounted to a stud or studs and blocking that cover the sides. Makes a nice sturdy mounting and is easy. It is pretty much the default mounting.

   I have gone into the sides where it makes sense. Pretty rare that it makes sense unless it is to run a stub to another panel mounted on the same wall.

1. 
   greggo | Nov 09, 2004 05:28am | #17

   Thanks 4lorn:Sorry it took so long to get back.I just went through the side (before I saw your post),I had lots of room,came out neat& clean.Also on that issue about the shared neutral/I cut the red conductor on the 14/3 and just ran an extra 14/2 to the rooms.I didn't want to worry about some guy down the road not keeping the lines on separate legs or double pole breakers.

   Thanks again for the advice

   Greg