Replies

1. 
   frenchy | Jun 11, 2005 06:04pm | #1

   1knothead,

     Welcome to the world of SIP's    Wall jacks/cranes?  nah! use a rough terrain telescopic forklift like I sell/rent! 

     I won't admit that the front half of my house is going to have all the walls put up by hand!  Shhhh! it's a secret...

     It really depends on the size of panels, how many people you'll have working with you and how high you need to lift them to get them in place..

    I can give you several short cuts that will make building your place a lot easier (found out the hard way).. and warn you about short cuts not to take and things to do better than the recommendations..

    Prices depend on how and who you buy from.. if you order direct from a factory you can still get contractor prices but if you buy from a salesman/ broker etc..  You wind up paying retail..

    I payed under $3.00 a sq.ft. for 6 inch thick panels when I started and today's price is $3.55 (due to the increased cost of OSB over the last 4 years) I use the company truck and drive there to pick the panels up myself rather than paying trucking charges..  It sometimes costs me $20.00 to use the company truck... I can get about 2000 sq.ft of panel on before it get's too tall

1. 
   cmdrvoid | Jun 11, 2005 09:48pm | #2

   I've been curious about SIPs myself...but I don't have a local source for the foam panels. As in, I just want to make the panels myself.

   Guessing OSB, foam glue, the right thickness of foam panel, glue, OSB. Can figure out splines and such myself. But are you getting the bare foam panels yourself? and what thickness? (or are you just building them up from local building center stock?)

1. 
   larryb | Jun 11, 2005 10:12pm | #3

   sips are made with a catalyed glue .  Then put in a hydralic press for about 3 hrs.

   This insures adhesion of osb to foam.  Not really diy unless you rig a press of some sort.

     Larry

2. 
   frenchy | Jun 11, 2005 10:37pm | #4

   Constructionnazi,

     What you want to do has been tried and failed countless times..  I'm not sure that you can save any money either.. you buy foam at retail, you buy OSB at retail and then you've got to make a press with heat.  Where as the panel companies buy OSB by the boxcar full, they make their own foam and they buy the "glue" by the 55 gallon drum full.  They also have the equipment needed to spray the "glue" at the proper rate so there is no waste.   There seems to be  SIP manufacturer in nearly every state the last time I went looking for SIP's  so check around before you give up..

    I buy my panels with the correct splines slots, or cutouts for the 2x material. they will also put wire chases to my specs but I've found it's far simpler to just run the wire up from the basement.. In addition You can order panels in as big as 30'x8'  from some manufacturers.. I'm sure there is no way you can press a panel that big with heat!

    Some manufactures will also do the cutouts for the windows etc.. In short if you build the foundation correctly you can have all of the outside walls up in a less than a day!

    I like to get mine with the walls blank or no cutouts,   that way if I need to move  a window over a few inches to miss a beam or get a better view it's no problem .. it does add another day to the construction but gives me a great deal of freedom and I wind up with all these neat window sized cutouts....  ;-)

     

1. 
   cmdrvoid | Jun 12, 2005 12:31am | #5

   oh well...figured as much. I've found the diy economy vs. store bought seems to always favor the store bought. But, Hey! ya never know!

2. 
   talkingdog | Jun 13, 2005 08:00am | #10

   As for building your own SIPS, there was a fascinating thread on SIPWEB recently on that subject:http://tinyurl.com/c99fnI think making your own SIPS is a ludicrous idea, but if I had to do it, and I had time on my hands, I think I would just build 4X8 hybrid panels in the garage with lumber and plywood (eschewing OSB) and fit some neatly cut blueboard into the cavity--if I could get somebody to cut it neatly and very precisely for me. For extra strength, maybe add another piece of plywood to the interior wall, too, and glue both of them down. Yes, you would get some thermal bridging, but you would get more structural integrity with all that lumber in there. Be easier to allow for wiring and piping at the fabrication stage, too. Maybe cheaper, too.

2. 
   AndyE | Jun 12, 2005 01:49am | #6

   I tried to do the addition to my house with sips. Called a company in PA about the job, about 1k sq ft addition. 50 yr old house. Salesman did all he could to talk me out of it. I offered to have his guy come out do a survey, I would pay his lodging and travel costs. Sent a set of plans to the company. Got sort of a runaround for a while about "old house, out of plumb walls un-level floors, not square corners, hard to match to blah, blah, blah. Hey, if this was new construction with a bare foundation, we would be there in a minute." So my dream of a tight energy efficient house will have to wait til I build from scratch. In the meantime, I did my best to match the new part to the older, breezy, leaky part.

   I envy you the opportunity to build this way. Let us know how it goes as you progress.

   Andy

   "It seemed like a good idea at the time"

1. 
   jonblakemore | Jun 12, 2005 02:03am | #7

   I think a Mooney wall is your best bet for retrofit or additions. 

   Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA

1. 
   AndyE | Jun 12, 2005 10:52pm | #8

   Not familiar with a Mooney wall. Is it a scribe -to- fit SIP? That was also a suggesstion of mine to said dealer. He didn't think I would be able to figure it out.Andy"It seemed like a good idea at the time"

1. 
   jonblakemore | Jun 13, 2005 05:45am | #9

   http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=26654.31 

   Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA

1. 
   AndyE | Jun 15, 2005 02:34am | #11

   Jon, thanks for the link. Interesting idea. Maybe next time.Andy"It seemed like a good idea at the time"

3. 
   Nailbag | Jun 15, 2005 05:34am | #12

   I helped apply sip's to a timberframe home recently and I thought it was a nightmare. IMHO not at all worth the cost and time.  Traditionally framed walls with fiberglass or blown in insulation witha 1/2" or 1" foamoard on the inside as a thermal break would achieve very similar energy efficiency returns with no crane rental, specialized tool use, or major wastage.  I think most energy geeks would agree that air leakage at doors, windows DWV and electical penetrations account for lots of lost effeciency....to go beyond advanced framing techniques results in diminishing returns.

    The actual installation of the sips was not fun for this carpenter. The piles of styrofoam beads flying around in the wind, sticking to clothes, stuck in tool pouches, and inside tools was heinous. The edges of the six inch panels are routed 1 and a half inches deep to receive bucks at all door and window openings. That's alot of styrofoam.  All panels have to be splined front and back and stapled, and then drilled every eight inches so foam can be squirted in...again a tremendous mess and didn't seem particularly green to me....poly foam stuck everywhere, cases of foam cans, and propellant, etc. 

   Also, wiring is a pain in the ####.  You'll find yourself laying out boxes to minimize wire pulling headaches rather than to create comfortable lighting and recep design. 

   I'd look hard at other options if I were you.  And be wary of how simple the sales reps make it sound.

1. 
   frenchy | Aug 09, 2005 08:32am | #13

   FC,

     Sorry I'm so late responding to your post, I'm busy building my own Timberframe with SIPs and haven't checked in lately.

     I read your post both with agreement and total disagreement..

     First we agree that panels are anything but a tidy job (especially your first time!) 

      I rarely had styrofoam beads flying.   I need to ask were you melting the foam or using one of those shredder things?    I have a melter that melts the foam out and other than a stinky smell is rather tidy.. I found that certain tools just send clouds of beads flying so I avoid using them.  I use a big Mikita to saw the panels and it's slower speed plus more coarse tooth doesn't send the little beads flying as much.   I also use a 3 tooth 18 inch sawzall blade because that seems more tidy... 

     Wiring is a breeze and I order all my panels without the wire chases since it's so easy to put wires in where ever I want them..  but if you can preplan well then have the factory put wire chases in.   It doesn't cost anything.

     Finally actual experiance last winter proved the value of panels to me.  Half of my house was panels and half was traditional stick framed.  When I bought my house the realitor made a big deal of how careful the owner was to get the insulation right and as I've torn the house down I can confirm that the insulation details were first rate! 

      The part that was traditonal stick framed was decidedly colder than the part that was covered with panels..   for example, the panel portion had only 1 four inch furnace duct dumped out in the middle of the basement garage  That single 4 inch duct kept approximately 2500 sq ft warm  (68 degrees)   I use a digital thermometer with a lazer beam to measure the temp of things (one of my toys from sportscar racing)   the floor the ceiling the walls were all 68 degrees.  (note the ceiling in the great room is 28 feet above the floor) 

     the stick built portion had 14 four inch ducts coming off the same furnace.. with everything wide open the thermostat set at 70 degrees I couldn't keep the stick built portion much over 55 degrees..

    (minus 25 below outside, heck of a wind blowing well over 40 mph)   The walls showed at 53 degrees except where a stud was (that was 49 degrees..)  the ceilings were 9 degrees warmer than the floors

    understandable.

       Fiberglas loses R value the colder it gets, &  moisture makes cellulose lose R value.

     The R value of a stud is 2 so every 16 inches there really isn't any insulation for a inch and a half (unless they are doubled or tripled together in which case you have  cold being conducted in for 3 or 4&1/2 inches times the length of the stud) 

     Thus the very best you can hope for is maybe an 80% of stated rating reduced by the outside tempurature factor..

        I'll let you know what my heating bills are as soon as I finish..

      Based on conversation with owners, I expect my heating bills to be reduced by  2/3rds.    That over the life of a building is serious money!  espcially since the cost of energy has taken such a steep climb..

     We do agree that the salesmen make it seem real easy to do but then what salesman would ever tell you the real negatives about their product?