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Hi folks….any comments on my letter to the Editor, Perth Courier?
In your recent Fall Home Improvement supplement a contractor was discussing the letters to The Ottawa Citizen about the low wages paid to skilled trades, and he said the real problem is lack of “quality labourers”. He went on to say “the buying public would not pay” if employees wanted higher wages, and that the buying public dictates the price of a house. However, I believe homebuyers would be more than happy to pay the very small overall premium that it costs to have their houses built or renovated by true craftsmen and women, rather than “labourers” or the underground economy.
When I ask why wages are so much lower here than in the city, sometimes I’m told it’s because this is “a poverty stricken area”; circular reasoning if I’ve ever heard it! Other people say it costs less to live here (not true, all things considered). I have never found a satisfactory reason why local workers are paid less than their city counterparts, but it seems to be an old-boys tradition that’s hard to break.
Although I agree there’s a shortage of truly skilled craftsmen and women in the area, I have to say that lack of a decent wage usually makes intelligent people look elsewhere for work! Many excellent people have left the trades for financial reasons. Very, very few licensed lead carpenters make over $30,000 / yr. in Lanark County, for a job that’s like being an artist, an athlete and an engineer all rolled into one. From the hottest day of the year to mid-winter deep freeze, construction is inherently dangerous, very strenuous, noisy, dirty and a lot of fun. It also takes thousands of hours to get really skilled at it and be able to call yourself a professional.
Over 20 years ago I started as an apprentice in Perth at $9.00 / hr., and was making double that by 1985. Compare that with today: a young person around here can start an apprenticeship in the trades still only making $9.00 / hr. (if they’re lucky) They’ll be considered unskilled labourers and will most likely be laid off at the first sign of a slowdown. It will take them years to rack up enough hours to write the licensing exam. Training courses cost thousands. Apprenticeship as a workplace tradition is dead, the whole concept of the master teaching the student is gone. Meanwhile many ten or twenty year construction veterans still make under $15 / hr. Is this any incentive for anyone to learn the trades? Is there any incentive for skilled people to stick around the area when they can make twice as much in the city?
Perhaps the current shortage of skilled labour is rooted in the lack of respect our society has for the construction trades, as evidenced by the low rates of pay compared to the “high-tech” sector. A 25% increase in wages only raises the cost of a project less than 10%, something most customers would be willing to pay to have real professionals on the job. When everyone stops cutting throats to make a living and starts to cooperate together to make things better, workers might begin to enjoy a decent standard of living, which will go a long way towards bringing back skilled people and making the trades an honourable profession once again.
IMHO,
Ross Elliott
Constructive Solutions 2000 Inc.
Replies
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Ahhhhhh,
Is there a question on the table? Or are you just blowing off steam?
A good tradesperson is worth what someone will pay him/her. Do I have to pay an employee more just because they have a certain amount of years into it? I've seen carpenters just five years into the trade who could out carpenter some men with 20 years. Just showing up to work over and over won't get you more pay around here. You have to be able to learn, think and improve.
Ed. Williams
*It would be interesting to hear how much money is being paid (on average) to various tradesmen throughout America. In my area (Pittsburgh, Pa.) , small general contractors are paying their lead carpenters around $15-$17 per hour; experienced trim carpenters $11 to $15 per hour, rough framing/general carpenters $7.50 to $11 per hour, depending upon experience. Plain old laborers get $7.00 to $8.00 per hour.Carpenters who are employed out of regular sanctioned Union Halls get paid from $19.00 to $22 per hour depending from what Hall they are from. So, how about it? Whats the pay like in your region?Anyone?The way I see it... Bottom line... Larger contractors who deal primarily with commercial contracts can afford to hire from the Union Halls and pay higher wages because they can charge more and get it from their commercial customers. Small contractors dealing with "Joe Public" has to watch his spending less he be underbid or cut out by "Joe Handyman" who poses as a contractor, but has a full time job and only does this sort of thing "on the side."Geographical areas do make a difference as to price acceptability. In my region, the vast majority of residents work at one of the 2 local steel mills. Everyone employed there is a tradesman. He/she is either a welder, pipefitter/plumber, millwright, electrician, electonics instrumentation repairman, carpenter, referigeration/heating specialist, bricklayer, motor inspector, boilermaker,heavy industrial mechanic, crane operator, heavy equipment operator, etc. etc.Most of these crafts pay a wage of between $17 to $22 per hour. Most of these skilled people are skilled in more than 1 thing (multi-crafting). Most feel they can "swing a hammer" as good as the next. Some actaully can, but others cannot. Bottom line...when something breaks or fails in their homeplace, first thing they do is try to fix it themselves. Second thing they do is call one of their buddies who is similarily "mill trained" to come over and make the repair. Only if all else fails, do they attempt to call in a licensed professional. And if that pro costs them too much more per hour than they make at the mill, the pro won't be making any return visits!Friends of mine who reside in more "white collar" areas such as Columbus, Ohio, or Atlanta, and such; are more apt to agree to pay out higher prices because they know very little about the trades themselves. They are limited as to who they can call for help; therefor contractors in these locales can charge much higher prices and easily get it. (Supply and demand)So how about it? What's the going pay scale in your neck of the woods?Davo.
*Mr. Davo,I can't speak of hourly rates with any true accuracy unto myself. I own/ operate a small framing company, and can pay myself $1000.00/wk. I spend at least 80 hrs/wk doing something job related, $12.50/hr. I try not to think about it.My help works half the hours, but earns about the same hrly rate.W/ regards to workin' in the city vs. the sticks...we'll get $6-$9/sq/ft here in the city, in the "country" the price can climb as high as $16/sq/ft.Go figure.The Machine
*Where are you ?
*Machine....If you are doing $1500/week/$7.5/sqft=200sqft framed/week...It would take you ten weeks to frame 2000ft home...near the stream,ajBlue did 3000ft in two weeks with 3 men...and less than 40hrs per week....3men 1500 ft/week=500ft/man...2 1/2 times faster...I have 1500 ft to frame coming up...2 men one week...750sqft/man/week...
*Chapel Hill, NC, seems to be around $20/hr for skilled lead men; not neccessarily the best carpenter on the job, but the guy who can keep it all together and cover forms to finish competently. Base start for a decent carpenter might run 'bout $14...not much of a spread. I personally bill $25/hr. for general stuff, $30 per for more electrical/plumbing-heavy work, cabinetry and furniture varies, though I usually make around that $25 base. I pay $10/hr. for show-up-on-time-don't-screw-off labor, $12 for decent painters $15 for decent carpenters, $20 for someone whom I can trust to think things through and do the job right...that last is a gem and usually just working with me as a favor; I always buy lunch and a six for an after work beer(also, a good time to air opinions/concerns...) to keep my folks happy. If I'm making more than enough on a job, I'll toss in end-of-week bonuses. STILL can't keep good people!Gonna try cloning the next crew....Joel K., doing too much myself....
*> I believe homebuyers would be more than happy to pay the very small overall premium that it costs to have their houses built or renovated by true craftsmen and women.......That's not at all true, at least not around here. Cheap is all that matters. If your price is too high, you're trying to screw someone. I call it the "Wal-mart mentality" - it has to be cheap and fast, but quality isn't an issue. There are several "wekend warriors" in this area, that have full time jobs, and build houses nights and weekends. They have almost no overhead, so they're real cheap. And, with no zoning or building department, they can get away with about anything they want. They drive down the cost of labor, and the quality expectations of consumers. As for wages - A typical kid out of school starts at around $7-8. More experienced guys generally get as much as &12-13. Union scale is about $20, so union companies typically only bid government work where the "prevailing wage" must be paid.
*Ross I liked where you said; > "Perhaps the current shortage of skilled labour is rooted in the lack of respect our society has for the construction trades, as evidenced by the low rates of pay compared to the "high-tech" sector."and your math points out something that a lot of people don't ever see either.> "A 25% increase in wages only raises the cost of a project less than 10%, something most customers would be willing to pay to have real professionals on the jobEd is right in that the years on the job don't really matter it the skill level achieved that important. I know way too many carpenters that have twenty or thirty years in the trade but only one or two years of "experience". As Ed says "You have to be able to learn, think and improve." and unfortunatly to a lot of the long timers (20 years plus) this is just a job. Well times have changed, techniques have changed, and most importantly the demands of the customer have changed and a lot of people in the trades just haven't kept up. As for the new ones entering the trades? Unfortunalty there aren't any or there are so very few they don't even register on the radar. The only young people I see with any interest of entering the trades speak Spanish which was why I started the discussion a while back Learning Spanish. If I am going to transfer any of my knowledge and skill to a new younger workforce they will be speaking Spanish so I think I need to change to adapt to that or else lose my edge in the marketplace.And oh yeah Ron I don't know where you are but being "cheap" I think is a regional issue. it's not necessarily the case at all around here in the NYC and suburban metro region. I'm wondering where is it you are talking about anyway? I know there are some bad areas to be working in but I sort of wonder at times why not relocate your business to Atlanta, Arizona, San Francisco, NY or New England where the price is not an issue.
*Ross; here are some Stats Canada numbers on carpenters wages.
*Gonna have to agree with Ron on this one. Typical Homeowners want three things: low price, low price, and low price. Give them that along with a couple of archways and one of those kitchen faucets that you can pull out and use for a vegetable sprayer and they have a "wonderfully well built house" regardless of how shoddy the workmanship actually is. In my experience the typical new home buyer expects everyone who works on their home to be payed no more than minimum wage. After all they're just "construction workers" "It's not like they went to college or anything." As with everything, there are exceptions of course, nevertheless I have seen too many examples of this mindset in homebuyers in the last fifteen years. It's downright discouragin' .
*here's a trite but true..your company can only be as good as the employees... they will always be your limiting factor, after you get teh good employees , you've got to keep them, motivate them, keep them supplied with good materials and interesting work...some organizations manage to do this with subcontractors... but to me that is more difficult to plan into the mix than good employees...
*Mark, You are right that most customers seem to want custom work at Home Depot prices. However, having shopped for a home a couple of years ago, I have to say that some of the 'craftsmanship' I saw in newer construction was about deserving of minimum wage. I believe that it is not just the customers who have driven the price of construction down, it is the GCs and subcontractors themselves. By hiring unskilled labor at low wages and creating higher turnover in employees, they are driving down both the costs and the quality that homeowners expect. The truth is that someone who is actually learning a trade and feels that their career is being advanced will stay on, even if earning slightly less. The person who is hired as cheap labor will move on for a 10 cent raise. However, the nurturing that used to occur in the skilled crafts (in my view, anything related to building a home) has seemed to drop by the wayside. Additionally, by working for less during the slow season, GCs and subcontractors are further driving down the price they can charge - you only charged Joe $12/sqft, why are you trying to rip me off and charge more? To me it seems that the construction industry should check themselves when crying about homeowner's expectations. By cutting corners in materials and labor quality they have helped to create the current environment. That's why many of the quality workers in my area will only do commercial work. Not just because of the higher wages, but because they don't want to have to compromise on quality. Truly, I understand the explosion of do-it-yourselfers. Looking at the quality of an expensive but midrange home, many people feel that they could have done better themselves - especially since they actually care about the outcome. That isn't to say that anyone on this board falls in the above descriptions, but the majority of residential construction is not the high-end custom work that is talked about here.
*As a passing thought, everyone bemoans the fact that a combination of supply & demand, continuity, and customer stinginess is suppressing carpenters' wages. However, there also seems to be some bragging rights associated with buying a tool at the lowest possible price (and/or getting it replaced for free for the rest of their lives). ISn't that a litle hard to reconcile ?
*I guess it's where you live and work AND the demand in regards to labor and rates they are getting. After talking with an electrician, newly arrived from New York about twelve months ago he couldn't believe, nor I, what plumbers are getting in this area of SW Florida. $22 per hour with only a few years experience! That's damned good money for that line of work down here...non-union too.The fact quality labor is hard to find, hourly rates have been driven up significantly the past 8 years or so. I guess there's a market for folks that want Home Depot prices and those hacks are usually around willing to do the work. Specialty work commands a good premium in this area and is caused by the spiralling demand. Then again alot of work is for those folks that have so much money to throw around some don't care, for the most part, what it costs..just as long as it's done right. They will shop around a little though.
*This is from the local paper today. I've got a buddy who is doing quite well doing punch out for a number of the local builders, but all his employees are long time in the trades. Not sure what this company is after, but desperate times, desperate measures? Joe Hhttp://www.ocregister.com/business/prep01010cci2.shtml
*Yeah, we have a shortage of skilled labor around here (Williamsburg, VA), too, I guess, but what we also seem to be missing are folks at the entry level of the trades.Although major job sites and contractors' trucks have signs posted for framers, plumbers, masons, etc., what appears to be another problem is the lack of what some folks call "common labor". The term "common labor" doesn't bother me, since that's where I started at 16, humping roofing shingles from the warehouse to the truck, and then up a ladder at the job site to the roof.What I'm seeing is a drop in productivity because the skilled guys have no support. A skilled mason mixing mortar, a lead carpenter crowning joists or building headers instead of calculating/cutting hip and valley rafters, etc., etc. Also, it's difficult to get subs to commit to more difficut jobs when there's other work out there that's easier to do. Witness: I've got three concrete flat work jobs I need done... I can't get anyone to even bid on the work, since (a) I rarely have need for this type of work, and have no "loyal" subs in this category, and (b) two of the jobs require wheelborrow work, and who needs that when there are a dozen other jobs from other contractors where the truck can sinmply dump the 'crete into the forms. Heck, I pick and choose my own work, so I can't fault anyone else for using the same logic.Having said all that, do I feel better?No, not really...Steve
*Amy, I agree with everything you said. You are very insightful. I just wish there was an easy fix for where this industry appears to be headed.
*Mr. Jack,RE: Post #5You certainly are a math wiz! However,just because I pay myself $1000.00/wk for 80 hrs. work doesn't mean that's my level of productivity. I produce in excess of $1500.00/wk for 40 hrs. work or less. My two framers/helpers work at approx. $12.50/ hr. and produce considerably more in their time on the job than the $12.50 I'm paying them. Profit anyone? Additionally, I'm dealing w/ 1 sub/frame crew and 1 sub/trim crew.I began my original post with the notion that my numbers really don't reflect anything applicable to an hourly rate. I spend 80 hrs/wk with my bags on, driving from job to job, bidding work, putting out fires, fixing tools, ordering or delivering materials, writing invoices, purchase orders, etc....you know...I'm the man... this is my show, my baby, haven't got an assistant...yet.I pay myself what I pay myself because that's what I can afford to live on (barely) and to pay taxes on. All the profit dimes get invested or handed out as bonuses, etc...So the company files a zero return every year.I'm in Colorado, things are going well here, those of us in the industry are a little worried about Amendment 24 though, Growth Limits, that's an entirely different thread though.The Machine
*Machine....you got me on spin cycle now!...what ever you just said...ya...OK...Fine...So taking my great abilities w/ da numbers...give me the straight shooter angle on it all...You are making $____.__/manhour..because you are doing ____work for $____and using ___men to do it..near the stream,aj
*Mr. Jack,It seems we've got something close to an instant message going here.I don't think I can give you cut and dry #s Mr. Jack.High quality is the only consistent thing about my operation...crew sizes change all the time...we'll be doing decks, siding and trim, framing, basements...on any given day.Ideally, I and two helpers will frame a 3500 sf home in 20 days(180 hrs x 3 men), I'll sub the trim, or pay my helpers to do it( I don't much like the "make-up", I'm more into the bones). I usually will build the decks myself(alone...ahhh..solitude) or sub them out. Consider that the framing gets about 65% of the total price here, the decks and trim/siding make up the other 35% of my average sf$.So tell me Mr. Jack...how am I doin'? $$$$$$ or notThe Machine
*$7.50/ftx3500ft=$26,250...Two men@ 12.50on the books=12.50x1.5=$18.75x180hrsx2men=$6,750 plus supplies= nails, gas, repairs, small tools $1000, plus subs for trim and deck @ 35%=$9187Your sitework pay @ $16.67x1.4=$25/hr...= $4500jobnetgross about $4,813...Sales 5% $1300...Administration 5% percent $1300.........plus other 1/12 of annual overhead =$1000Remainder is your company profit before taxes and capital expenditures allowing for no depreciation so far...$1,213.00How am I doing so far?...near the stream counting the Salmon run,aj
*Mr. Jack,You're doin' great, you're a wiz man!But, how am I doin'?Could I be doin' better?I ask myself this all day long.I know I could be doin' worse.I do appreciate your skills.The Machine
*Post in the business folder, read Sonny and the others over there...near the stream, looking at plans to my next project, contract signing time,aj
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Hi folks....any comments on my letter to the Editor, Perth Courier?
In your recent Fall Home Improvement supplement a contractor was discussing the letters to The Ottawa Citizen about the low wages paid to skilled trades, and he said the real problem is lack of "quality labourers". He went on to say "the buying public would not pay" if employees wanted higher wages, and that the buying public dictates the price of a house. However, I believe homebuyers would be more than happy to pay the very small overall premium that it costs to have their houses built or renovated by true craftsmen and women, rather than "labourers" or the underground economy.
When I ask why wages are so much lower here than in the city, sometimes I'm told it's because this is "a poverty stricken area"; circular reasoning if I've ever heard it! Other people say it costs less to live here (not true, all things considered). I have never found a satisfactory reason why local workers are paid less than their city counterparts, but it seems to be an old-boys tradition that's hard to break.
Although I agree there's a shortage of truly skilled craftsmen and women in the area, I have to say that lack of a decent wage usually makes intelligent people look elsewhere for work! Many excellent people have left the trades for financial reasons. Very, very few licensed lead carpenters make over $30,000 / yr. in Lanark County, for a job that's like being an artist, an athlete and an engineer all rolled into one. From the hottest day of the year to mid-winter deep freeze, construction is inherently dangerous, very strenuous, noisy, dirty and a lot of fun. It also takes thousands of hours to get really skilled at it and be able to call yourself a professional.
Over 20 years ago I started as an apprentice in Perth at $9.00 / hr., and was making double that by 1985. Compare that with today: a young person around here can start an apprenticeship in the trades still only making $9.00 / hr. (if they're lucky) They'll be considered unskilled labourers and will most likely be laid off at the first sign of a slowdown. It will take them years to rack up enough hours to write the licensing exam. Training courses cost thousands. Apprenticeship as a workplace tradition is dead, the whole concept of the master teaching the student is gone. Meanwhile many ten or twenty year construction veterans still make under $15 / hr. Is this any incentive for anyone to learn the trades? Is there any incentive for skilled people to stick around the area when they can make twice as much in the city?
Perhaps the current shortage of skilled labour is rooted in the lack of respect our society has for the construction trades, as evidenced by the low rates of pay compared to the "high-tech" sector. A 25% increase in wages only raises the cost of a project less than 10%, something most customers would be willing to pay to have real professionals on the job. When everyone stops cutting throats to make a living and starts to cooperate together to make things better, workers might begin to enjoy a decent standard of living, which will go a long way towards bringing back skilled people and making the trades an honourable profession once again.
IMHO,
Ross Elliott
Constructive Solutions 2000 Inc.