Getting ready to strip the cedar shingles off of my 50 year-old house and take it down to the plank-sheathing. I’ve got “rockwool” in the walls. Planning on wrapping it back up w/ Tyvek and siding the house in Hardie. Climate: Mid-Atlantic. Am I making a mistake… should I insulate it too?
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Replies
Not that I'm a siding type of guy (vinyl, anyway....hardiplank's not bad), but every time I see the local siding co.s slap on 1/4 thick fan fold I wonder....what's that all about, anyway?
Can't possibly be much r value, the joints are open, too
Someone with some experience want to step up to this one?
Not that I have much more experience than anyone else, but I agree with ya. I have always figured the fanfold can replace Tyvek or the like, as long as the seams are tight and taped. Then I beleive the 1/4 inch stuff can actually do at least some good.
To the original poster, I would say the Tyvek alone wouuld be fine as long as the walls are insulated well. Of course some here will insist on black felt paper instead of Tyvek! That's another discussion.I get paid to do carpentry. That makes me a professional.
If I work on my own house does that make me a DIY?
Just finishing one up where I used the good insulation (brain cramp on the name. Was it polyicystyrene?) in 4 x 8 sheets. Actually, it's an almost of gut renovation that I was living in last winter. There was stucco on it, which had been taken off. The foam made an enormous difference in the heat. This was an unusual situation because it was mostly the west wall that was done. The foam was 1 inch which meant all the window and door casings, corners and rakes had to be reworked, but it was a changeover to beveled cedar.
Bottom line, I would go with the extra insulation. I would buy the good stuff again. In your situation, maybe use 1/2" to avoid less build out problems.
Don
polyiso is about 7 to the inch...
we used to recommend it to our customers until i replaced a window for my lawyer client..
his foam had about 20 vermin / inch all over the house... little crawly wormlike things..
i've had other jobs that were totally infested with carpenter ants.. you could hear them eating
now the only foam i will use is Borate treated...
no borates... no foamMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Ya hadda tell me that NOW?
I just got 20 4x8x 2" boards delivered a week ago.
I think I'll be spraying before I close it all up. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Boracare would be a good idea in your house
it's about $100/ gal ( i've paid as much as $125 )... figure on a 1/1 dilution... the max dilution is 2/1Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks I'll search some out. After removeing all the chewed up logs and framing it, I have a lot of places where I have had to cover the old log and build out, so the log is still an interior feature.
When I was shopping for 2" ext.poly. Lowes would only sell a whole lift ( 1300.00). So ABC roofing had a 500.00 min. order for the polyiso. Greater R per inch and cheaper delivery, swayed me.
I just got a 16lb can of foam for 112.oo..so whats another 100 for bug stuff? Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"You had to tell me that now?" How do you think I feel? Just congratulated myself on getting the last of the foam and cedar up this week. Now what? Take it down and spray? (Fat chance.)
On a happier note, there was no infestation at all that I saw in any of the boards that had been up already, unprotected for a while, so maybe the critters that Mike has seen haven't made their way down this far. Or maybe there's just so much more wood on this house that they don't waste time on the foam...
Mike - What percentage of the jobs with poly that you have seen have/had bugs? Can you attribute it to particular factors - shade, moisture, etc.? I've never heard of it being a particular problem before.
Don
well.... it first came to my attention when they started putting foamboard on the outside of foundations.. and the pest control guys stopped warrantying thier termite contracts
but the first time was about 15 years ago.. we built a house in a pine woods on top of a hill.. 2x4 studs, 1" polyiso ( probably OwensCorning ) foil faced..
and 1/2" plywood over that.. i was doing a walkthru with the owners after the rough wiring.. we went into one room and heard this Crunch... Crunch .. Crunch..
traced the sound to one corner.. took out my pen knife and opened the foil face.. and the carpenter ants came swarming out.. they had the pest control guys in and cut the trees back considerable..
2d time was about 10 years ago.. same product .. foil faced polyiso..
3 years after we built the house my lawyer client asked me to add a window.. so we cut thru the foam for a new rough opening... the entire ouside surface under the foil face was full of larvae of some unidentified bug...
it made me think twice about ICF's, and all other foams.. i know that in heavy termite country ( in the south ) the ICF's are treated with Borate.. but you can't get it up here in New England.. if you want borate ICF's they import it from southern plants
when I found out about the ICF's i found that one of the PerformGuard plants is in my backyard ( Smithfield ,RI ).. anyways.. any foam we use now is EPS PerformGuard
here's a link to R-Control & Perform Guard EPS
http://www.r-control.com/products/building_products/building/perform_guard/performguard.asp
edit: the actual answer to your question is that i don't know what % has infestation..
most of the jobs we've done , the foam is buried in the wall and out of site... or it's under the slabs...
i only know that i've determined to only use EPS and the bottom line is it protects better and costs less with a lower R-value
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 8/6/2005 9:36 pm ET by Mike Smith
I see extruded polystyrene on that site.
I have polyisocyanurate , purchased with in a month....I think we can be somewhat assured that the potential for buggedness may have been adressed? Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
And you thought you could ignore balloon knot.
i don't think so.. instead of addressing it... they ignore it..
especially in a roofing product
but,hey, whadda i no ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks..I'll address it. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
And you thought you could ignore balloon knot.
polyiso is organic polystyrene and polyethyl aren't. I use the 1/4" fan fold for leveling out a wall and it has a better perm rate than blue board for old work over claps.
>> I use the 1/4" fan fold for leveling out a wall and it has a better perm rate than blue board for old work over claps. <<
Can you tell me more about the perm rating for the 1/4" fanfold stuff?
Fellas... thanks for the feedback... sounds like the consensus is that I could get by w/o foam board but it wouldn't hurt. Part of the building has already been Tyvek'd ... any trouble w/ putting the foam board over it... or is that the way it is supposed to happen?
Tyvek has a tendency to "buzz" under the siding if it's put under vinyl. Since you're using hardie, their might be less inclination for that to happen.
We prefer the heavier types of housewrap, such as Typar or clones.
blue
Blue..wass the diff tween typar and tyvek? I am using Titainium UDL over my sheathing (today)....I'll be using Hardie plank..is there something I should know?
I also hve 20 sq of 30lb felt, but this might be a long project..I expect the Ti UDL will last longer.? Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
And you thought you could ignore balloon knot.
I see a red flag here. I think the perm rating of Titanium is substantially less than 1 perm. I'm not sure of the climate in you part of KY but I suspect you may have moisture issues in your walls in January. There are many variables that would come into play, such as interior moisture levels, interior surface permeance, air tightness, incidental water infiltration, insulation type, and interior temperature levels. If you are using a poly vapor barrier on the inside of the exterior wall, I believe that you now have a vapor barrier on both sides of the wall. That would be a bad thing.
Please tell us what the other components of your wall are. I will research you climate data.
Ray, I just reread your first post and will elucidate further.
I have the west ward wall, thet gets the hit..it was logs ( white oak, and chestnut) about 6" thick, being as they were dovetailed to the corner, they have a sizeable daubbing space ( was rocks and plaster, and mud).
I have an addition on the same plane, that is 4'' or so beyond the logs..what I did was stud out the difference and add rigid foam insul, and am hanging osb as a ............
now ya got me..why am I hanging osb?
Ok, hardie plank is my goal, as is getting as much as I can from the insul ( we are not in the artic after all)...
Currently I heat witha woodstove..which I intend to upgrade this yr. I have 2 rooms that are "comfort" in both winter and summer..they are in the addition that was added..
we occupy 2400 sq ft, we use one tenth of that, due to ongoing construction..
Yer input is really recieved with open mind..keep it coming.? Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
And you thought you could ignore balloon knot.
Wow- 4760 heating degree days and an average low temperature in January of 22 degrees F. You have made a bad choice of drainage planes. The titanium should not be used on the cold side of the assembly. If you have an R-13 of insulation in your wall cavity and you leave the Titanium on your wall, you will need to add an R-12 of foam insulation to the outside of the Titanium in order to keep the temperature of the inside surface of your wall sheathing above the dewpoint temperature in January. If you have and interior vapor barrier, the Titanium should be removed in any case. Never put a vapor barrier on both sides of a wall or roof assembly.
UH OH- This is off the company website for Titanium UDL and I quote "TITANIUM-UDL™ must be installed above properly ventilated spaces (follow local building code) as it is considered a vapor barrier (.06 perms)."
This means that my concerns are quite valid and you need to take action to avoid a moisture problem in your walls. I'm sorry to bring the bad news but better now than later.
Wow Ray, between Frenchy in another thread and poor Sphere now, you are chock full of bad news, eh? World not giving ya a fair shake at the moment? ;)
Just kidding. Interesting info and advice.I get paid to do carpentry. That makes me a professional.
If I work on my own house does that make me a DIY?
I ain't poor, I am insane..get it right.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
fergot the grin............
And you thought you could ignore balloon knot.
Edited 8/7/2005 10:54 am ET by SPHERAMID
I ain't poor, I am insane..get it right.
Difference??I get paid to do carpentry. That makes me a professional.
If I work on my own house does that make me a DIY?
Wow yerself. I had no idea . Thank you!
My situ is rather unique, I have to cover over the bad wall( logs) and I have framed a stud wall on the ext. My total thickness is now 10", I have used the polyiso in 2" lifts ( if you will) and 7/16 osb sheathing.
I am foaming all the mateing surfaces, and inthend to leave the logs exposed on the interior.
This house is about 175 yrs old, I;ll die before it is "done", I intend to bequeath it to my daughter..so, I have a real plan.
I really appreciate the help you have shared..but boy oh boy does it FU my schedule...LOL.
If I keep changing my plan and attack, I'll never get it done.
I be rethinking. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
And you thought you could ignore balloon knot.
You might want to look at these reports and there warm walls reports.http://www.pima.org/information.htm
You da man!
I really am not artic or savannah..but the warm wall was just what I am compromising to make it more liveable this winter. I figgure a r30+ wall with out glass, can offset the losses due to other constraints.
All this gobbelty goop about venting and roofing is only applicable to the climates that are the subject of extremes.
I live in /at the 30th paralell....same as Korea or some other places (G).
This house has been thru the wringer more than once..the beauty lies in my hands..my choices, my mind.
Just got off the fone w/ my buddy DDOUD..I have a recalcitrant log issue..maybe a large issue.
I enjoy y'all like brothers..ya jump in and help without me asking.....
I don't say it enuff ( to you) thanks Bill. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
You think that's funny? Watch THIS!...I can only do it once tho'
It sounds like the 30 lb. felt is the way to go. Two layers is even better, especially if you are not going to use a furring strip behind the Hardie. The two layers will form a path for water to drain out that gets behind the siding. The outer level will protect the inner layer from the elements during construction.
I'm not entirely clear about your wall assembly. Did you cut two layers of polyiso in between the studs? Then you sprayed foam between the logs and the stud wall at the perimeter to keep air out? If the answer to both questions is yes, then you have a good plan and I see no problems if you switch to felt paper.
What is the foundation that supports this wall?
Yes, the answer is yes.
This is a gable wall, I used a double 2x10 pt lagged to the sill log that was not horrible. I then ripped 2x6 in half and made a sort of facade of studs, bearing on the 2x10's and top plateded to the existing ( it was 4" outta plumb in 8').
A log home is all header. and the gable side really is over kill. But I had to keep the wind out ya know?
All the pics can be seen at ( I bet I can't post the link, without being speroed)..Photos , My ol kentucky home take 2..lemme see if I can post of a shot from the west wall to make it more real for you. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
You think that's funny? Watch THIS!...I can only do it once tho'
http://forums.prospero.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=38593.348
Dagnabbit Bill, I was just going there to get the link info,,,and you supped me on the draw.
I think Ray really might understand my plight..doan go an pizz him off, I need help here. LOL Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
You think that's funny? Watch THIS!...I can only do it once tho'
It looks good. Three things you will need to do are air seal, air seal, and air seal.
Roger that. My wife an I just now got the front door installed. that'll teach them skeeters to leave us alone.
Am I getting old or are them cheap therma tru doors w/ 9 lites abova a pair of panels getting heavier? Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
You think that's funny? Watch THIS!...I can only do it once tho'
"air seal, air seal, and air seal"Ray, I think that is what he has now; air sealed to air selared to air.All he needs to do is to find something solid to seal that air to.
Thanks Blue- Looks like we'll go w/ the Hardi... lots of good comments on it.
Tx-Ryan
Fanfold insulation will add up to 1.5 R-value but it's main purpose is to create a smooth and level nailing surface.
How the Be#!@@ does something as flexible as fanfold create "a smooth & level nailing surface".....personally, I think its more or less a load of hooey, but impresses cheap homeowners who don't know any better....
> How the Be#!@@ does something as flexible as fanfold create "a smooth
> & level nailing surface"Think about it. You're hanging tin or vinyl over existing siding. The fanfold is stiff enough that, so long as you don't hit the hammer too hard, it will provide a relatively flat surface. If you hung directly on the siding below you'd have a load of problems, and none of these outfits wants to go to the trouble to either strip the existing siding or install vertical lath strips for nailing.The fanfold is the absolutely cheapest stuff that can be found to do the job. (Short of old cardboard boxes, that is.)
..."none of these outfits wants to go to the trouble to either strip the existing siding or install vertical lath strips for nailing.The fanfold is the absolutely cheapest stuff that can be found to do the job. (Short of old cardboard boxes, that is.)"And that is precisly my problem with it....I think it's on a par with painting without sanding or priming.....
But what do I know
I don't think anyone's arguing with you.
The only real purpose of the fanfold is to provide a smooth surface when placing plastic/tin over existing siding.