What do you do when the space you left for installing the stair skirtboard ends up being too small to slide a board into? I originally framed in a 2X along the sides of the stairs, but nearly all of the walls around the stairs got 1/2″ plywood sheathing in addition to the drywall.
Any ideas? I suppose I could scribe the piece to fit, but i’d rather not.
Thanks!
Replies
Is it possible to pull the stringers and add furring behind them then reinstall to gain the need room?
Just scribe them--it's not as hard as it seems. Set the skirt board on top of the stringers, plumb lines up at the risers, level them across with a framing square, cut them. You'll be done in 20 minutes.
Run the skirt thru the planner
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Wouldn't it make the transition to baseboard awkward if the skirtboard was thin? I suppose it depends on what the baseboard is made of.
True. There are often transitions and corners of other kinds that can call for unique treatments there anyways.
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And if he's transitioning to speedbase then he'd be doing himself a favor.View Image
plane it.
"Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing..."
Thanks for replies so far, but planing is not an option. There are a couple walls where the resulting gap is 1/2" or less. Don't ask- I know the math doesn't add up, but you know how it goes sometimes.
I guess scribing may be the only way to go.
Do yourself a favor and before you scribe it, take a flush cutting saw, ( hand or fein ) and cut out the tread and the scotia the thickness of the skirt as far in as the riser. Then you won't be trying to fit each bullnose, just the vertical and horizontal surface. The skirt will tuck in the notch at the tread.
Bing
It's ironic that the numbers don't add up and work but they never do. I'd probably layout the stairs and just route the part that supposed to tuck behind the treads and risers. The exposed skirtboard would be full thickness but the tucked part would be 1/2" or whatever you needed.The layout wouldn't be that difficult. After all, it's just a simple rise and run layout and you can locate all the points by laying the skirtboard on top of the nosings and mark them. I'd make a pattern and just slide it from mark to mark. Total time: one hour or so. That's what I'd do if I was you. Since I"m me, I'd pull out my Makit and cut the treads back the 1/4" that I needed as far as the saw would let me. I'd finish the treads with a chisel or sawzall and sawzall the risers. Total time 1/2 hour. I like saving half hours, especially when I goofed it all up! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I was kinda thinking something similar Blue. I'm thinking I'd probably take a hammer and knock all the triangles off the stringers and then sister in another stringer next to the mangled one.... buying myself another 1.5 inches. Probably more work than your idea but less frustrating to me than a sawzall and tight spaces.View Image
My regular saw would get about 70% of the tread. The riser and remaining tread wouldn't be too bad. That still wouldn't allow the skirtboard to drop all the way down though, so on second thought, I'd probably do the template and route thing. I used to set up templates to route the entire carriage anyways so just routing a small portion wouldn't be too bad...especially with nice clean dry wood. I think you would end up with trouble trying to retro fit a new stringer. YOu know how those pesky riser locations never seem to be exact. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
"I'd probably take a hammer and knock all the triangles off the stringers "You haven't started using Timberstrand yet for stringers, eh?
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It's not that I haven't..... it's that the builders I work for haven't. :( I don't get to choose the materials much Piff.View Image
Yeah. I had one where I made it too tight and the SR finishers got generous with their skimcoat and I had to do it that way. Probably took me more than an hour though.
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Why are you guys all so afraid of just scribing the skirt board? It's just like cutting the stringers, but easier because you can be a little sloppy....
Mike, I don't think anyone is afraid of it.... just answering the question. The OP was looking for options other than scribing it.... and that's what we're tossing around. I agree.... at the end of the day scribing it may be just as easy as anything else.... it just wasn't the question.View Image
Stoopid reading comprehension....
So far the OP hasn't been back to say whether or not the finish treads and risers are in place. If they are, then scribing the skirts will be a huge headache. Unlikely that anyone would install treads without skirts in place, but I've seen it done and been asked to finish it. If it's rough treads and risers at this point then notching the skirt around them would be quick enough. I wouldn't plane the skirts unless the base is fairly thin.
I'm back and I don't think I fully understand waht some of the others have proposed regard cutting the treads and knocking out triangles. The treads and risers were installed flush with the stringers- there is no overhang to trim off. It's all still rough deck.
After thinking about it all I think I'm going to scribe. It won't have to be perfect if I do the skirts first and then put the finish material on the treads and risers. By the way, the finish material is going to be limestone set on 1/4" Haribacker, so there will be a slight (less than 1/8") grout line at the skirtboard interface.
I'll post a pic. when I'm done.
Later......
get a couple good coats of primer/sealer on that piece before setting it in permanently then or the grout will play hell with the wood and trying to paint it later
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Great! Post some pics of your process too. We love picture threads! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
"Unlikely that anyone would install treads without skirts in place, but I've seen it done and been asked to finish it."Say what?! On traditional built up stairs, I've always done & seen the skirt scribed in, with the tread nosing notched off as per a previous poster. Covering the cut ends of the treads is the point of the skirtboard.
Now, if you're talking about shop built stairs with the treads routed into finish grade stringers, that a whole 'nother story.....
Word! I went to look at a job to trim out a new house. The guy who built the house had installed finish treads (pine) right on the stringers and protected them with cardboard. He had cut them tight to the sheetrock. It was his way of saving money and not installed plywood subtreads, I think. Then the owners realized that stairs have skirtboards.
Ummmm
Most stairs I've seen don't have "subtreads". They may have temporary ply. treads.
If the pine treads are true 5/4 nosed treads, not some cheesy 1x, then it's OK in my book to fit them rock to rock (a liitle slop for expansion, please), notch the nosing and fit skirts.
Looks good, lasts a long time....
A guy above said: " On traditional built up stairs, I've always done & seen the skirt scribed in, with the tread nosing notched off as per a previous poster. Covering the cut ends of the treads is the point of the skirtboard. "
Huh??? can someone else please comment on this...
I always fit the tread between and thought the skirtboard was to protect the wall. But what do I know?
Same here.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
OK - great... this thing about putting the skirtboard on last as SOP had me thinking I was on the wrong planet or something...
I'm trying to understand why you'd do that. If the stairs are carpeted I can see how it would be possible, since none of it shows, but for finished stairs you'd have to be a hero to get a tight fit to each tread top and riser.
David around here I always see the skirt installed first and the treads scribed to it. Ain't ya never seen Mike Smith's jig he made out of a stop sign? View Image
Stop sign? You can buy a tread fitting jig or just make one. We have a bunch of bamboo treads to cut in between skirts shortly, so I better either steal a stop sign or buy something.
Maybe Pete will let you have some old street signs cheap.
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David
Here is a pic of Mikes jig, along with another one that I think Snort posted.
Mike did a nice job of putting the print side down on the sign material thus avoiding any chance of the law getting involved!
Doug
It is even labeled "My Freakin' Sign Aluminum"
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Can only guess what those initials would stand for if it didn't work.
OK, lets go to school.
Generally two types of stairs in houses.
One has notched stringers (like you can buy off the shelf @ HD, if you can't figure out how to lay stringers out with a framing square for your deck...)
The other has a full stringer, with dados routed in to hold the treads, and risers. If the stair is wide, it needs a notched stringer under the middle for extra support (although, if the treads and risers are rabbeted together & fastened, you get a pretty stiff assembly).
If it's a deck stair with full stringers, the treads are fastened to cleats (wood or metal) and it most likely doesn't have risers.Now, back to the notched stringer stair with skirt boards. Unlike the full stringer stair with the treads and risers housed in dados, where the stringer forms its' own skirt, you need to have a skirt to cover the sheetrock. Now, I'm far from a hero, but I've managed to fit a skirt board or two in my time. It's pains-taking, and takes patience, so it's no surprise that lots of stairs are shop built with the treads & risers routed in. You get a really strong stair, with no nails through the top of the treads. The trade-off is that the stringer material isn't 3/4, so you have to figure out how to make a nice transition to baseboard.No doubt I'm showing my age here, since when I started out base was 3/4 stock, and you nailed ogee on. Maybe with all the thin one piece base out there, and the cost of skilled labor, there are new standards for stairs & trim. But fitting skirt-boards is part of my tool kit. I'm a little surprised that this seems so odd to some of the posters here. Don't get me started on window trim....:-)
I don't dispute your description there, and I'm not even sure it's addressed to me... and maybe we even further agree about the silliness of "scribing" a skirtboard in over the treads and risers. IMO you would have to be nuts to do it that way. It would take longer and be uglier than the way most people do it, which is to install the skirtboards and then cut the treads and risers in between them.
If you came onto my crew and were assigned to finish the stairs, and you told me you were going to scribe the skirts in over the treads and risers... I'd hand you a shovel.
Wouldn't you first ask him why he forgot to space the stringers in from the wall framing?
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I would have framed it, so we wouldn't have that problem. Pretty good chance I would cause some other problem somewhere else. But not that one.
Maybe a clever guy could steal several stop signs and make himself a skirtboard scribing jig. Bring that to the job along with your tread scriber and you're loaded for bear.
The shovel would be OK with me. The older I get, the more I like the workout, and the relative mindlessness of the task.But I'll go back to my "school" here...call it old school if you like.
Best set of stairs-shop built, full stringer, treads & risers rabbeted together, housed (glued & wedged) in dados on the stringer.
Second best, site built, engineered lumber stringers, 5/4 treads & 3/4 risers, risers are still rabbeted to the treads, and a fitted skirt board....so hand me that shovel! To me. it's like the difference between dovetailed drawer boxes, and anything else. All wood moves, and the inevitable gaps are less noticeable with the skirt on top of the tread---and it can also cover the nail or screws in the outer stringers.I admit to have never been a production builder, so I don't really know how you are installing the skirt before the treads-are you blocking the stringer out 3/4 for the skirt + 1/2 for the rock?
>>I don't really know how you are installing the skirt before the treads
How are you running the school and you don't even know that one?!
"I admit to have never been a production builder"It's a renovation/custom carpentry school, not a tract home school ;-)First stair I site built was traditional construction, open riser on one side. If you think fitting skirt boards is hard, try getting good miters between the open outside skirt and the riser ends....and don't forget to add nosing to the open side of the treads-rounding them over with a router is cheating, and anyway you leave then off until the pickets are fitted in the tread dovetail mortises-no dowels allowed.It was a serious question, BTW....
In answer to your question you fasten a 2x4 or 2x6 to the wall , aligning it with the bottom of where the stringer will fall. Fasten it to the studs then fasten the stringer to the 2x. That leaves a 1 1/2" gap between stringer and wall studs, generally more than enough to slip a skirt board into. OP's problem was they added another 1/2 of sheathing besides the 1/2" drywall to the stair wall framing. that left him only a 1/2" to slip a 3/4" skirt into.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Not afraid, it is just ten times easier to run it through the planner
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You're right, and with speed base or a transition block it would work. Talking about routing in the treads after the fact or knocking out the triangles and scabbing on a new skirt--that's where it seemed like it was getting a little rediculous. But the OP did ask for options other than scribing, so....
Rockford,
Ah, run it through the planner and where it's less than 1/2 inch thick take the additional material off with a belt sander or portable power plane..
Scribing that many stairs, risers, perfectly is too much of a challange for me. Corners of stairs are so easily seen that anything less than perfection will glare at you like red wine spilt on a wedding dress..
If you are determined to scribe then do it the right way! Get yourself some stiff cardboard, sharp scissors and make a pattern. Tape them all together the length of the board so that when you are finally done it's absolutely perfect at every single point! then transfer what you made with paper and scissors onto the wood.
cut it out leaving the line so that you have the line to finess and work with for absolute perfection..
Trying to work off measurements or by aligning the board up will result in shoddy workmanship!
" Trying to work off measurements or by aligning the board up will result in shoddy workmanship! "For you it would result in shoddy workmanship. For a skilled carpenter, it would be perfect, just like any method properly executed. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue.
Maybe that's why I notice so many poorly fitting items done on the tens of thousands of houses I walked through. All those skilled carpenters took the required time for perfection.. They just consider +or- 1/4 inch perfection.
No, they didn't take the required time, or they didn't use the right procedure. Or, they were satisfied with the 1/4 variance. It all depends upon each person and each situation but you can't make a blanket statement and say one technique or another will result in shoddiness. That's just a dumb statement and pardon me for pointing that out. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue,
I agree they didn't take the required time resulting in gasps and such. Of the proposed solutions running it thru the planner is far and away the fastest.. I'm in agreement with Piffin on that.
(unusual isn't it? <grin>)
I'll grant you it is possible to do a decent job scribing over long distances. It's just not easy or quick.
It is easy and quick for somebody who knows what they are doing. That is your problem, you are trying to advise and criticise on a subject you know little or nothing about.
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Sorry Frenchy, but making a cardboard template is NOT the most accurate way. Simply tacking the skirt board on the wall and plumbing lines up from the risers, then using a spacer board to scribe a horizontal line for the treads, is the easiest and best way to achieve perfection (+-1/46 to 1/32"). IMHO.
I've done it that way following somebody else on a set of winder stairs, at least once in a situation similar to the OP's, and it works. It's just not as easy as pre-installing the skirt board, but at least you only have to scribe one board instead of every single tread and riser.
The OP doesn't even need to scribe perfectly though, because if I understand correctly the finished treads and risers aren't on yet. He's got 3/4" slop to play with. That should be enough for just about anybody to work with.
Mike,
Yes since he doesn't have the treads and risers on it makes it easier and doable. However as Piffin and I are in rare agreement on this it's still not as fast as running it thru a planner.
Of course if the OP doesn't have a planner then scribing it will work acceptably since the treads and risers aren't on.. IF they were on it would be extremely easy for a long skirt board to shift ever so slightly during the process and then gaps and poor fit would surely result..
I'm with you that the planer is the fastest method.
Hope you enjoyed Piffin's agreement with you while it lasted! ;-)
In another thread, he and I were just having a friendly discussion about keeping his statements in context.So here, he said, "Scribing that many stairs, risers, perfectly is too much of a challange for me.... Trying to work off measurements or by aligning the board up will result in shoddy workmanship! "He was just speaking from his own limited experience when I read it in the light of what it is for him only.To be fair, I agree that the planer is the easiest first choice, but the one about cardboard, tape and scissors had me ROTFLMAO
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Piffin.
For perfect fit nothing beats a carboard template. It's easily cut, easily transfered, and can be added to and subtracted from infinately.. If one or two cuts are off a 64th or a couple of degrees simply add some tape and recut..
I learned that technique from building race cars with one of the better fabricators in America..
Maybe you are so good you can turn water into wine and you never make mistakes but clearly the OP isn't one of those..
easily transfered, and can be added to and subtracted from infinately..
To All,
THERE IS NO 'A' IN INFINITELY OR DEFINITELY!
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rez,
Apologies to one and all! I should remember to click on spell check!
Well, in that case we'll let it slide this once, just don't let it happen again.
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rez,
Much as I'd like to I can't promise that. Will it help to make a blanket apology now in advance of future mistakes? <grin>
"It's easily cut, easily transfered, and can be added to"And easily torn, stretched, bent, or otherwise manipulated via human error.One of the basic principles applied to something like this is that you make a pattern when you need more than one identical copy, but the making of a pattern and the act of transferring that pattern to a model is in and of it self subject to human error. By adding the added step of creating a pattern, you increase the amt of human involvement and the likelyhood of mistakes before the piece is cut out. all that while doing extra un-necessary work. It is far faster and easier and more accurate to just scribe the skirt than to go to all that extra to take a chance on goofing up.
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Piffin,
Torn? Stretched? Bent?. What do you make your patterns out of newspaper?
I can cut a carboard template in a fraction of the time it would take you to cut the same out of wood.. that allows me to set it back into place an make as many adjustments as I need to for accuracy. Only when everything is exactly perfect do I make the piece..
Measure twice and cut once, maybe you've heard that?
I suppose you object to my making story sticks for everything I need to make multiple copies of as well?
"make as many adjustments as I need to for accuracy"Well, since you do that kind of work and need to keep fiddling to get it right, YOU do need the cardboard template.Don't go off chasing broomsticks in the tornado bringing up storypoles. That is another subject and exactly the kind of thing I said patterning is good for - when you need multiple copies, which is not the case for this skirt.
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"easiest and best way to achieve perfection (+-1/46 to 1/32")"I don't think any of my measuring devices is calibrated to 1/46". Must be a Down East thing :)
BruceT
Edited 5/5/2008 12:49 pm by brucet9
I don't think any of my measuring devices is calibrated to 1/46". Must be a Down East thing :)
Yeah, I'm not surprised you left-coasters aren't using the traditional 1/46th scale. Too hard to cut with a wrom-drive.
(+-1/46 to 1/32"). Mike, where do you find a device to give measurements in x/46 ?
I could use one that accurate. :)wdbwell, I see that brucet beat me to it. :)
Edited 5/6/2008 6:53 am ET by wdb45
"If you are determined to scribe then do it the right way!"So that is the right way huh?What a waste of time
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You've created lots of discussion here (cussin?), but all you have to do is wait for the June/July FH to arrive.
I sold my method to do just this.
Ultimate street cred, my man!
Forrest - spending my earnings on riotous living
was wondering where you were during all this. I was remembering the post you showed your method in. Seemed to get a lot of positive feedback on it at the time.