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In finishing the design on our new house, my wife and I are considering adding skylights to the high cathedral ceiling over the great room. We are considering the skylights as a cheaper alternative to a dormer with a circle topped window way up there.
First of all, how much of a problem am I asking for with using skylights? I hear lots of horror stories of leaking, condensation dripping, condensation causing drywall stains….and on and on. Are these problems at all avoidable?
Secondly, should I get skylights that open to help ventilation? And if I do, how the heck can I open them if they are 18 feet high? I know some are available that open electrically – how much $$$ are we talking for one of these?
Replies
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You seem you have a lot of time and questions, have considered getting and reading a good book?
Maybe Gene can recommend one.
Regardless of your education, designing a home is not to be taken lightly. Spend a few bucks and hire a designer in your area.
Gabe
*Adam-I have heard this very concern countless times. A leaky skylight is a result of bad installation. The place I live in had skylights that leaked for 10 years. The previous owner "had the installer back several times to fix them. Claimed it was roof pitch etc. If someone doesn't know what their doing they can look at something a million times, and see nothing wrong.I re-roofed(for other reasons), and re-flashed. NOt 1Notop of water. I have never gotten a call back for a leaky skylight. Find someone who has an excellent reputation to do the work.I'd go with at least some venting skylights. You'll be amazed hot much hot air they will let out. If mine weren't vented my upsatupstairsd be unbearable.Lastly, look into some of the electelectriced and closed models...there more $$ but one electric skylight that you open and close is cheaper that a ceiling full of manual ones that you never open beacubecause too much effort. Of set the cost by doing one of these, and leaving the others close by fixed. (I'm assuming multiple skylights in the same ceiling
*like i said...ur a PITA and u need help..who is designing yur house?why do you have so manny questions that shud be answered by yur designer?if yu don't trust him , y do u keep him/her?if yu do trust him/her.. why do yu keep comming back here?keep the dormer.. yu'll thank yurself..if you use skylights ,, use fixed ones.. if you use operating ones, yu'l opn them the first year and then never again...the novelty will wear off and they'll just be a pain..if yu get electrical ones , it's just one more thing to break ....don't do it..what's going on with this design... you just bilt a house two years ago....answers please....
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The house I built two years ago was pretty basic - no skylights, no dormers, etc. The roof was just a combination of regular trusses and scissors trusses.
Who is my designer? I am. As far as skylights go, what can a designer tell me that a decent contractor can't? I would tend to trust the opinion of the guy who has installed 4 million of them and had to deal with the outcome. Guess I thought that's what these forums were for - to get advice from people "in the know".
If I had a dollar for every book on home building that I've read in the last 6 months, I would just go have Frank Lloyd Wright cloned and design a house for me.
There is no satisfaction for me in paying a designer to design the house, paying a draftsman to draw the blueprints, and paying a builder to build the house. I might as well pay someone to live in the house, too. This method reminds me of paying $50,000 to shoot a trophy buck on a fenced in ranch - the head on the wall would not mean anything to me.
Will I make some mistakes? Of course, but I will fix them. I'll design it, draw it, plan it, build it, and live in it by myself, thank you. I am always willing to listen to advice, so keep it coming.
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here's some advice.. same as the first...u got the engineer syndrome...u think it can all be muckled down to a simple decision tree...
but it ain't engineering, it 's architecture and design.....and yur not playin with paper.. ur playing with wood, and concrete and different trades.. and experience and creativity count...
if you want to have fun .. go right ahead.. but i can already tell from your questions that u ain't ready fer the big time...
hell i been designin em fer 27 years and i ain't ready fer the real big time.. i know my limitations...and i'm workin on improvin em...
Rodin didn't just start sculptin the Thinker one day.. he spent his time as an apprentice,, and he learned his medium,, and he worked his way up to it...
keep on pluggin adam...but it sure wouldn't hurt to get some input from a design professional whose work you admire.....
b but hey, whadda i know?
*Adam,A qualified designer doesn't cost you a nickle. At the end of the day, he or she SAVES you time, money and frustration.You want advise, here it is.If everyone thought the same as you, YOU WOULDN'T HAVE A JOB.After all we could all design our own mechanical equipment. Why would we need an engineer? Shit flows downhill and hot air makes it way to the top. Right?Regarding who gives the advice;No one has installed 4 million of them.It doesn't cost $50,000.00 to shoot a trophie buck.And nothing beats looking into the eye of the one giving you advise.Gabe
*Adam, I say wing it. Even if the house ends up lousy, at least you can say you did it all, including the design.By the way, I have never seen anything the Frank Lloyd Wright did that I liked. Since opinions are free here's mine-he sucks!blue
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I'm not looking to build a 10,000 square foot mansion with octagon bedrooms and circular bathrooms - it's a fairly basic 1.5 story house with some cathedral ceilings. If I can't figure out how to frame a dormer, then I must be in the wrong profession. We're talking 2100 square feet here - the last house I built was 1600 square feet and turned out fantastic. This is the reason I'm anxious to build another - I'm selling the first house right now and I am DOUBLING my original investment. Not bad for 6 months of work and two years of waiting.
I can honestly say that I know what you mean by "engineer syndrome" - I work with many people who have it. I would ask a designer for help if I thought I was in over my head, but I don't. I wouldn't expect you to call an engineer to ask how to change your oil.
I have thought about paying a good, experienced framing contractor to come look over my shoulder a few times a week and offer advice. He could tell me when I was doing something stupid. Would this make sense? How much would be a fair hourly wage to offer (cash pay, of course)? I don't mind being generous.
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yup, that wud make sense... although it wud make more sense to do a plan review.. before u dig yur hole... foundation or otherwise...hah, hah, hah
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Hey, I'm more than open to that idea. I am still AT LEAST 2 months away from digging the hole (foundation or otherwise).
What would be a fair hourly wage for an experienced builder? $40 per hour?
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if yur askin for plan review , yur askin fer the sum of his experience, so i would pay him what u wud expect to be paid consultin as a PE in mechanical work....
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Based on my current job's salary, I would be happy to get $8 an hour.....
OK, duly noted - I won't mind spending a few hundred dollars to save me $10,000.
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The first time I hung a door was the first time I'd done it. It wasnt' as pretty as when I do it now and now isn't a pretty as I hope it is 10 years from now.
So Adam the PE: If you're happy with something that's not going to be as pretty as if an experienced architect designed it and and experienced contractor built it, go for it. Lots and lots of people build their own houses and it usually works out pretty good.
I've got a cousin, a pharmasutical (sp?) toxicologist who built a nice one and my wife's got a mechanical engineer who built a beautiful timberframe home, moved into a self built adobe house, and has just broken ground on his third. The first two were magnificent.
Not everyone can build a house but I fix my own car and I'm not a mechanic.
*Adam, I would stand around all day and eat your donuts for 1000 per day. That is what I usually make if things are going well.On second thought, no I won't. I'll just eat your donuts and sit around and watch how messed up you can make things. You'll eventually get it done the hard way, and I can then tell you "I'd of done it different"!I don't usually lend a hand to my competion and I've been known to lie if they ask me direct questions.Never trust a guy with a devil in his name.bluePs if a guy is worth his salt, he'd be too busy to lend you a hand for wages.
*Adam, Skip the skylights. And, instead of hiring someone to show up on site and tell you "it's wrong" after you've pounded the nails, spend a few dollars now and have someone thoroughly review your plans, footing to weathervane, before ground is broken.With your previous experience you should have a bit of a clue. Have your hired help come to your present house to see your work. He'll have a better idea of your capabilities and will have a better base to advise you from.Having a pro look over your plans isn't a sign of DIYer weakness and frailty. It's a sign of intelligence.
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Excellent points, fellas - I'll do exactly that.
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Just an opinion you understand-
but I've read your posts and although you may be able to grasp what the folks here are telling you - you ain't gettin' it. You have too many questions concerning how to, to not trot this project before someone with more experience.
You made a nice profit on your last house- you can P--s it away in a heartbeat on your next...
*doug.. u been takin a nap on this one....adam the pe goes on in a later post to thank us profusely for not lettin him ruin his life.. and wreck his marriage..ooops gotta go... couple more hours and we tee off for the first week of the wednesday nite league
*Details mike! don't wake me to pester me with details! I'm off to that same golf thing-hit 'em straight!
*Well Adam the PE, what do you bill yourself out per hour doing your PE work? Sounds to me like you need a professional keep an eye on you.Im a civil engineer as well as a builder, and you sound like alot of the guys in my engineering office. They dont know jack about residential construction, but think they know it all. Hell, I do both and I wouldnt think twice about hiring a designer/architect.Dave
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Fellas,
Is it just me or are you guys having a field day on Adam because he is a PE. He asked for information on skylights and nobody answered his question. You know what they say about opinions.
Ease up
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muss jess be you Randy. The esteemed Mr Messi gave an answer that said somethin bout skylights. Now shaddup and fetch us another engineer to toss on the fire.
*Sheesh, y'all have more than one axe to grind.Sounds like the skylight Q was answered a while ago. Sometimes they are really nice for function or effect, I like the Velux I put in, but they have to be properly done. The horror stories are true, but they're more about the installers than the "skylight" concept. The dormer is a sounder choice, besides don't skylights always look bad from the outside?I like the electric motor idea. I don't even enjoy cranking casements in and out -- every time I leave or return to the house, or turn on/off the furnace or A/C? -- and am vaguely considering motors for a couple of these ... they will also close automatically if it rains.... If you are a climate control fanatic and use the A/C, get the fixed ones, no question.
*A lot depends on your location and climate. Here in the dreary Pcific Northwest, it's rare that a new home, or addition doesn't have a couple skylights. But then, we don't have ice damming or severe condesation problems because our climate is so temperate. I wouldn't think of building a house here without a few strategically placed skylights.
*I agree, i love natural light. the Velux, which i actually put over an enclosed porch in case my work wasn't good enough, doesn't leak even when left open in the rain.....
*I guess Velux has been out in front for some time now with their flashing kits but I've never installed one. We just put them on a 4 or 5" curb, step flash the sides and don't have any problems.
*Jim, your missing a beautiful, easy thing to install, if your still building curbs. Basically, the velux raises the glass to create it's own curb. Very simple, very sound and logical flashing system. And it works.Get into the new millenium!blue
*Blue, you are right as usual,here's one we just used it's for roofs that are 0-10 degrees. I'd never build a curb again.Vince
*I once installed a regular unit on a low pitch roof (approximatley 9 degrees). I just didn't like the look of the low angle unit and was willing to take a chance.No problems, even in this snow country.blue
*Adam,Manually ventilated skylights open with a telescoping hook-n-pole gismo. The electrics are handy though. Skylights always go in best before the roofing material goes down. If you do it right the first time it'll be the last time. The key is tar sealant under the flange, over the flange, then some of that window/ door sealant tape, (or 6" strips of tarpaper with mastic mashed between it and the flange), and then tar the edge under your shingles. No problem yet for mr minus mastic impregnated clothes. Condensation on insulated glass is a sign of other problems then the glass. More likely bad air exchange and high humidity. I personally think that skylights "work" well with cathedral/vaulted ceilings. There now I saved you $90.00 for the design opinion.
*Adam, skylights are the kind of thing you'll wish you had put in more of. With new construction there is no reason for leaks, IF YOU FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS. Joe H
*I have mentioned this in other threads,but I will bring it up again.(lest any one think I have gone soft in my old age)When I get calls from prospective customers with leaking skylights the problem is generally with the skylight itself,NOT the flashing or installation.The problem seems to be with the material used as a sealant or gasket between the window pane and the rest of the window.These windows are generally in the 8-10-12 year old range,and were problem free untill suddenly WHAM!Now a homeowner with a 12 year old house whose skylight has suddenly sprung a leak is unlikely to contact the original builder.The homeowner may well be the 2nd or 3rd person to own the house and have no idea who the original builder is.Even if the homeowner is the original owner,I doubt very much if the original builder is going to warranty a 12year old skylight.So the homeowner now has a waterfall gushing into his kitchen or bedroom and he is left to the tender mercies of whatever roofer he finds willing to tackle the project.I have seen so many of these windows fail at the same approximate age I am no longer willing to even look at the job offered.I know a lot of you builders love these windows,and the homeowners do also.I am quite sure they are great sales features,especially in new construction.I doubt many of you are called upon to fix the old age problems though,and I bet most of you are contractually free of liability by the time these windows are expected to leak.In my opinion,these windows are crap. I would not have one in my house,or any one I cared abouts' home.Of course maybe my sampling of skylight failures is self selecting. Maybe I only see the problem windows and that has unfairly colored my opinion.Windows don't belong in roofs. Stephen
*Stephen, I know you specialize in roofs, but you also may be walking away from a very lucrative sideline business -insurance repair!Most skylight leak damage can be claimed and repaired at the homowners insurance carriers expense. I personally have done very well when dealing with insurance companies. And I tend to do what the doctors do...I "throw a big pile of s__t against the wall and hope some sticks!" Sorry, that was a quote from a doctor when I asked about his insurance billing practices!I know you don't like to hire subs, but you might be able to find a sub that "specializes" in skylight repairs.blue
*Stephen, while reroofing don't you find yourself flashing around lots of working older skylights?There is, I hear, a tendency for the GLAZING seals to fail because of the increased thermal movement ... sooooo reglaze or replace. It would also seem sensible to design the "well" (so-called because of all the water leaks?) to channel the inevitable leaks OUT of the framing so they will be discovered promptly?
*Blue,Andrew----Most of the houses I work on are 60-80 years old. Skylights are not original equipment on these houses and even today are the exception,not the rule.I have on occasion done well on insurance work but there is a lot of wasted time on the phone explaining the simplest items to the claims adjustors.Unfortuneately what the adjustors are willing to pay for has no relation to what work is actually needed or what it will actually cost.Very difficult to deal with a mindset that won't allow icegaurd on a job because it wasn't part of the original roof(ignore the code requirements cause we ain't paying for it ? What am I supposed to do,donate the icegaurd out of the goodness of my heart?)Adjustors who want an itemized cost for each item,and then tell me they only allow X amount for dumpsters or trash hauling.Disposal of debris is always higher than they allow.I could rant for hours about insurance agents.In my area,insurance repairs are largely dominated by 2 large companies.Any how,my original point was----most of the people singing the praises of skylights are not the guys who will have to deal with the inevitable failures.good Luck all,Stephen
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I have found that the trick to prevent leakage in new construction skylights is a product called grace ice and water, sometimes affectionately known as bitchithane.
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I think our homeowner's insurance either has or doesn't have (?)
a rider that targets the "up to Code" problem -- that is, whether
they'll pay for what it cost the old way or doen right the new way.
Homeowner gets the slack ... or maybe a partial roof.
When did the rubberized asphalt stuff appear? It appears to be
the key difference for skylights. Also, there's something about
windows and skylights -- they get misinstalled all the time. My
distributor saw me reading the mfr instructions and said I was
probably the first installer he'd seen doing that. OK, I'm a nerd.
Stephen, have you read the most recent JLC, an article on metal
roofing? It has a fair amount on flashing details that I'd like to
adapt as a reference for an asphalt roof -- the details appear
pretty good -- comments? The one thing I want to do different for
shingles on dormer "cheeks" and SKYLIGHTS (see, this isn't
off-topic) is to use step-flashing instead of a continuous strip; my
impression is that this is superior weatherproofing, just more
labor... What was it again, six nails per step into the roof
sheathing? ;)
*Andrew,Sorry I am not familiar with that article so I can't comment at this time.Nick,A similar product(although much less hazardous) is used around here all the time.It works great,but unfortuneately does not solve the problem of leaks between the actual glass and the rest of the window.It is interesting to me that we will debate endlessly over 15# felt vs. 30# felt VS. Roofers Select. We will argue about 7/16 OSB VS 5/8 OSB on roof decking ,even Plywood vs OSB as decking.We will verbally wrestle over the smallest details of insulation and venting.AT the same time no one questions wether putting a few 2' x 4' glass filled holes in their roof is a good idea.You guys willingly sweat the details on things like wood/masonry connections to promote the maximum life of the structure and then enthusiasticly install a skylight which could easily fail only halfway through the roofs life cycle( and thats half way through a cheap 20 year shingle).Good Luck All,Stephen
*Stephen, one of the ways that I did well on insurance was to create a long informal,detailed itemized list of tasks to be completed, on professional letterhead with no itemized prices. I would include multiple days of set up, clean up, takedown, with hours/days attached to each task. If the claims adjuster wants to argue time, I'll engage him, but I won't negotiate rates.Inevitably the claims adjuster would want to talk to me. I would simply just tell him that I understand that the client wants a professional job, and that's how our company operates. Our price is not negotiable, and that his dispute about figures is not an issue with me. Basically, I don't have to match prices with every Tom Dick and Harry, that do things half-ass.The adjusters have then begged me to find a way to cut some costs. I usually throw them a 100 discount (remember, we all like to win) and they accept. Probably the key to the entire process is having the client insist on using you, because of your professionalism. Remember, the only jopb the adjuster has is to issue the check, not select the contractor. If the cost of the repair cannot be agreed upon, the adjuster will end up in court. One funny thing. After going through this process, and haveing an adjuster begrudgingly award the claim, he ended up referring me to another client a few weeks later.There is huge money in insurance repairs. Take a second look, and be willing to spend a few minutes with an itemized list that might include hiring a cook to feed the clients that lost their stove to a fire!blue
*I routinely try to talk people out of skylights... I'm seldom sucessful. My preferred line is "putting any kind of hole in your roof is just plain dumb." Those that want them don't wanna know!! I will refuse to install cheap shit plastic flush mounts, but will agree i under protest,if the product is Velux or a quality curbmount.-pm
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Skylight, schmylight! You guys make my head hurt! Everyone wants the perfect house. I started building my perfect house years ago. Guess what I found out? There are only houses that work better than others! No perfect ones! Poof! They don`t exist. Let go of it, already. Me, I like a couple air changes per hour...you can keep your 5000$ air-to-air heat exchanger and your indoor air pollution... and if costs me another couple C-notes per year, FINE! as long as it doesn`t blow the curtains around. Gimme my central Rumford W/air make-up vent, my radiant in floor, my wooden doors, AND my skylights! While you`re at it, gimme a big overhang all around, proper site orientation, and the correct amount of glazing on the corresponding wall! Look around... is anyone bawling about these crappy developements all over? If you want an expensive, inefficient, properly installed hole(s) in your roof, then you should have one, dammit! Life is not a dress rehearsal. Live in the house you want. I`m putting the pretty holes in my roof! And you`ll all be jealous.(wow! I feel better! Now, where`s that check book?)
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I'm in your camp on this issue Steve.
All too often, people forget about the most important value...Living value. Too much concern for the bottom line deprives people out of having a home that they can enjoy. Build it for yourself in a manner that fits your style of living. When you sell it, the new people will change it no matter how nice you thought it was!
blue
*Assuming you CAN sell it! I'm thinking of a house I pass a lot that is painted tutti-frutti.So the skylight leaks after a while. Fix it. If you want your roof to last forever, build a bunker. (Some people are making old nuclear missile silos into homes, actually.)
*Adam, I"m sorry, I have to weigh in here. I understand the need some people have to hire "experts" to make every decision for them. You don't sound like you're one of those and that's not wrong (IMHO) If you comprimize to achieve an effect or feature, it's just that. Decide what you want to achieve and make your selection. Please don't think you aren't capable because you don't have a decade of training and experiance. (IMHO) Frank Loyd Wright designed only one decent house and that was Falling Water, Given his budget and site, I wonder what others could do. Greene and Greene built several great homes, but the best one was on a great site and had a masive budget. Ask for imput, and if you really are stuck or over your head get the help you feel you need. Heck, just build it! If you build it then you'll know how to change it later if you need to or want to.
*Hey Frenchy, your the first person that I ever met that didn't worship Frank Loyd Wrong, err Wright. Welcome to the club!blue
*Well, his bldgs ARE pretty to LOOK at.
*A lot of people don't know shit about Frank Lloyd Wright. "The only decent house he ever designed was Fallingwater". Interesting observation, Frenchy, one that implies you have analyzed every other house he ever designed. I've studied his work for years, and have visited many of his houses, including Fallingwater, and after that much interest and research, I don't feel qualified to comment on ALL of his house designs. I doubt many people are, either.But, whether you like the houses or not, you have to give him credit for thinking way beyond the box--he stuck his neck out many times, and revolutionized architecture time and again. No architect will ever have the widespread influence he did (has still) and no architect will likely ever do as many different things as he was able to do, and with low technology, and through many periods of economic hardship.He took us from stagnant victorian designs to extremely well-crafted prairie style, to modern "jetson" and post modern contemporary housing, and was conscious of the need for affordable housing to the point where he spent much effort building for the common man when he could have been designing skyscrapers.You hear things about leaky roofs, and other deficiencies. Put it in scope, and it's petty stuff. Think about it--most of these buildings are OLD. They've been used and abused like a lot of the buildings around them that are already torn down. And many were built on the cutting edge--prototypes, and experiments for the wave of the future. Some small price to pay for excellence. There probably isn't one house he designed that most guys on this forum couldn't fix the roof leaks on, at least those of us who do that kind of work. BFD.Criticizing Wright in this way is like saying Aristotle only had one good thought.From the land of Wright,MDxxpp
*Mad Dog,I agree with most of what you say about Wright; he did some serious rethinking about what buildings could be. But it's my understanding--let's not forget that this thread is about leaks--that many of his buildings had roofs that leaked....badly.And I understand that when people complained about the leaky roofs, he had several retorts. One was: "If a roof doesn't leak, the architect wasn't creative enough." Another: " The way you can tell it's a roof is that it leaks."Like many creative geniuses, Wright often cared little for practical matters. That's not a criticism, just an observation.
*Hey Mad Dog, I don't know anything at all about Wright other than I've never liked one of his designs. He might have been a revoutionist, and I can appreciate that, but his houses are ugly!Of course, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.blue
*True enough,Though he did solve and create many structural and practical innovations.I'm giving him credit for work done. Personality wise, he was too egotistical, stubborn and driven for most people's taste. He could be almost impossible to work with at times, and spent money before he had it.Kind of reminds me of me sometimes, though I have no fame or otherwise!@But I still would have to say that even if you don't like his designs, they opened the door for a lot of other designers who were influenced by his work.MD
*Adam the PE. In your rush to double the money, don't fall. If you do, be roped off.Does a well designed house need skylights? I seem to remember a few houses I worked on as a grunt that were just full of interesting light play. No skylights. I'm framing a contemporary now that will radiate on the inside, but through the use of finish materials, a window wall at the stairs, and orientation. I say skylights are usually by the desparate, and for the easily impressed. Wrights houses look pretty in the photos, I'll bet their grand to stand in as well. My 77 VW bus leaked like hell, and I lived in it happily for 9 months.
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All of you crack me up! The only drawback to skylights is a proper installation. If done properly -- a skylight will not leak.
This also brings up a famous story about Frank Lloyd Wright and his response to a customer on the subject. (The customer was none other than the founding father of the "Johnson Floor Wax" family -- an extremely wealthy customer.)
Mr. Johnson called Mr. Wright on a very rainy Wisconsin evenning to explain that he was throwing an extremely important dinner party and his damn roof was leaking onto the dinner table. Mr. Wright needed to do something about the problem immediately.
Mr. Wright's response, "Why don't you move the damn dinner table!"
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I respect wright although i am not a fan. BUT falling water is falling down, yes it has been a few years since it was built, but what if they had not slipped a few more pieces of rebar in when Frank wasnt looking. He building were built for the most cheaply. Maybe he was before his time because I see cheap all around me now.
I good humor]\
David
*I would take a colonial or cape over this post modern crap anyday. Nothing looks better than a well built colonial with a nice front porch and good trim details. Most architects are full of crap anyway. People that hire them are throwing money.
*who are u jake's... and why do you have an e-mail address the same as the server ?awful lot of deception going on at this board lately...kind of make's it easier to make inflamatory stements rather than contribute to a discussion....b but hey, whadda i no ?
*Mike, it seems all the Email addresses are screwed up, even yours and mine.Board's all screwed up.Gabe
*well gabe, that's it .. now i'm not even sure i'm me...b but hey, whadda i no ?
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In finishing the design on our new house, my wife and I are considering adding skylights to the high cathedral ceiling over the great room. We are considering the skylights as a cheaper alternative to a dormer with a circle topped window way up there.
First of all, how much of a problem am I asking for with using skylights? I hear lots of horror stories of leaking, condensation dripping, condensation causing drywall stains....and on and on. Are these problems at all avoidable?
Secondly, should I get skylights that open to help ventilation? And if I do, how the heck can I open them if they are 18 feet high? I know some are available that open electrically - how much $$$ are we talking for one of these?