Slate on a Front Porch, New England
NickNukeEm
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
Client wants a new slate foyer and the same slate on the front proch. This is New England, and although I’m building a roof over the porch, it will be open to the weather.
In the past I’ve shied away from tiling outside due to the freeze/thaw issues, but a tile setter I know does it often using Kerdi or Ditra.
Question is, will the slate hold up outside in the weather? She wants the same tile that can be found in thousands of homes built in the 60/70’s; irregular pattern, multi-colored.
Opinions on the slate, as well as setting tile outside? Porch is cast concrete, sound with no cracks, chipping or wear.
Thanks.
“I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul.” Invictus, by Henley.
Replies
Nick, this is mostly a bump to put your question closer to the top of the list again. But I've come across a similar situation, and am curious about your project and others' experiences.
A couple years ago I had a client who also wanted a slate-floored "porch." This was actually a "raised patio" with a roof over it. Large sandstone blocks formed the perimeter of the porch (rising 3 feet above grade), and the interior was filled with packed stone and sand. The sandstone blocks had shifted outward (initially installed c.1917), so the client was concerned about long-term stability, water drainage, etc.
This was beyond my expertise, and the client eventually had another contractor pour a patterned concrete patio directly on top of the packed aggregate. I don't think some of the larger issues were ever addressed, however.
Allen
Thanks for the bump. I spoke with my tile supplier, and they confirmed that slate was not the material to use on an exterior application in this part of the country. They did turn me on to some nice looking porceline tile which resembles slate, though not in the 70s-ish sort of way the client wanted. Will take a few samples and see what they say.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
I've used slate pavers outdoors in NE with no problems at all.Bought from Build Direct. Something like 2000 sq ft at about $1.25 a foot for tight grained green slate, 24" squares, 1-1/4" thick. No freeze/thaw damage.A few years ago I bought some slate tile through them as well, I used about 1800 sqft for my pool patio.Both times I resold the extra locally which resulted in me essentially getting the stone I needed for free.I'm planning on purchasing a load of granite pavers from them sometime this spring.You absolutely cannot use that crappy cheap slate tile that they sell at HD, a good portion of it is more like sedimentary shale than tighter grained slate. that stuff flakes when you look at it.
You absolutely cannot use that crappy cheap slate tile that they sell at HD
But that's what they want, lol. The porceline tile looks very similar in texture and color to theose you posted, so hopefully they will agree to that. Thanks.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
how'd U set it?
I do lotsa tile ... but turn down exterior tile.
have seen one too many exterior tile's pop.
are the pavers set like tile ... in thinset ... or laid loose like ...
uh ... pavers?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
By the pool, the slate tile went over Ditra which was on a slab. Finished it with black grout.
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The 24" pavers? Done both, thinsetted to a slab and dryset over compacted stonedust.
ditra huh?
I may overcome my fear of exterior tile.
then again ... ran across a great young tile setter who works cheaper than I do ...
so I'll probably just sub it to him!
I just remember one trim job that turned into me helping the maintainence guys all winter ... and every Mon morning it was go outside , scrape the ice / snow ...
and pick up the loose tiles that popped over the weekend!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Exterior tiling isn't all that bad when there is a pool nearby that you can accidentally stumble into.But you've got it even better, you can sub it out to someone else!
come to think of it ...
he's about your height too!
tiled the 8ft shower ceiling with no trouble what so ever.
Jeff
I had to use my 4ft step ladder to get the backer board up there ... Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Can someone please explain to me why a porcelain tile would be better than slate in an exterior application? Slate is rock, rock forms outside. Slate doesn't mind the rain, or we wouldn't put it on roofs. Likewise for the sun. I can understand the concern of tiles popping if rain infiltrates, but why would porcelain be better than slate for that?
Although I've set a lot of tile, I'll be the first to admit that I am not an expert. Porceline is excellent in wet areas because it is a vitreous tile; it is very dense and does not absorb moisture. Slate, on the other hand, is not vitreous, and the characteristics of it (layered, rough) allows moisture to penetrate the stone, and when frozen, this moisture can cause delamination. It's not such a problem on a roof, I'm assuming, because the water doesn't hang around much on a roof.
That's my two cents worth, and it will be corrected shortly by someone who might know better than I.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
Slate can be tight-grained or not so tight grained.At the lower end of the scale is the stuff I've seen for sale at HD. Some of it is tight, it gives a nice "ping" when you strike the tile with a trowel. Other pieces give a dull "thud" when given the trowel test. The thud often indicates a flaky, more sedimentary piece.You look at the cut edge of the tile and you see the sedimentary layers, it's as easy to pry the layers apart as if you were holding a stack of paper.If it's loose grained, water can be absorbed into the tile and when it freezes it'll expand and cause the tile to flake and spall. The expanding water/ice literally prys the layers apart.So, tight-grained slate is perfectly appropriate for outdoors. Some of the lower grades of "slate" may not be.Porcelain is not the cure-all either. Some is not rated for exterior use.
Thanks to you and Nick for the explanation.
Sr. mongo
that slate around your pool is beautiful!
in there you mention 1 1/4" 24" pavers dense slate through builddirect for $1.25 / sq ft - is that (still) possible?another day I'll be searching builddirect
thanks,, John
Looks like they bumped up the prices a bit, but not by much:
Build Direct Slate
"You absolutely cannot use that crappy cheap slate tile that they sell at HD, a good portion of it is more like sedimentary shale than tighter grained slate. that stuff flakes when you look at it."All slate will flake over time, even the expensive stuff. If you want natural stone surface surface that will stand up to freeze/thaw cycles, use quartzite. It looks similar to slate but doesn't absorb moisture. Of course it will cost $8-$15 a SF just for the tiles...
That pool patio that I showed in slate? It was almost done in quartzite, I don't know if they still have them but Build Direct used to have "woodgrain quartzite" tiles and pavers. Price was good, about $2.25 to $3.50 a sqft, they sent me samples that were excellent. A big stoneyard down I-95 has it as well for about two and a half times the price, from the same source.As far as all slate flaking...I understand what you're saying. But I will point out that as a worst-case scenario of sorts, I have slate tiles on the waterline of my own pool. Tight grained slate, and living in CT they undergo a few submerged freeze/thaw cycles each winter while in water.I forget how long my pool has been in...maybe 6 or 7 years...but I've yet to see any fragmentation or flaking of the slate. It's still rock solid. No pun intended. Or maybe it was...<g>Best, Mongo
hello everyone. Great info on this site. I am a rookie here, and by no means a pro in home remodeling. I am in the middle of putting in a patio outside with 4" concrete and was planning on putting quartzite slate on top of it. Entire area is about 700 sq ft with a curving edge. I am looking for some help on how to install it. What type of materials should I use, and also how do you cut slate. There will be a curved edge so a large portion of it will need to be cut. Once again thanks for the help.
Here's your bump so if Mongo doesn't get to ya maybe someone else will stumble along with some help.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
New book alert; Eckhart Tolle "A new earth"
A must read.
You'll probably get some replies now that Sphere bumped this post up for you. However, you probably didn't get anything before because you hijacked someone elses topic. I know you didn't mean to - we live, we learn. I'd suggest you click on the "Post New" link in the appropriate category (left column) and create your own topic. Saves lots of confusion when we know which member we're responding to.
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Cheap Tools at MyToolbox.netSee some of my work at AWorkOfWood.com
Edited 5/25/2008 6:07 pm by Ted W.
munson,
You can thinset the quartzite directly to the slab or use a membrane between to decouple them.
If you tile right over the slab, you could get issues when/if the 'crete moves and telegraphing causes the quartzite to crack.
To be on the safer side, I'll often use a membrane like Ditra to decouple the slab from the stone. It'll help isolate slab movement and help protect the integrity of the quartzite tile installation. Ditra will add about a buck a sqft to your costs.
To cut the quartzite just use a diamond blade in a grinder or in a circular saw. It cuts like buddah.
Here's a shot of ditra in action:
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Mongo
This looks like the stuff I used, I've used the black and the green.
I've used an porcelain faux slate, by DAL. Asian Black was the color, I think Continental Slate was the name, it comes in other colors as well.
Lemme see if I can find a link...yup, here's the black:
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And here's the green:
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I'm not sure if it's exterior use or not, though.
They can be slippery. The house I recently moved into has some variety of slate tiles for a front walk. Aside from the fact that the previous owner tried to bed them in blobs of mortar (and failed) they have 1 big problem - they are very slippery when wet. Maybe there is another type of slate tile that would work better in this application, I don't know about that. The ones at my house are irregularly shaped and mutli-colored.