Is it just me, or do homeowners seem smarter these days?
It seems lately that this new generation knows construction like a group of seasoned vets, is anybody else noticing this?
I just find it surprising, I mean I’m 41, I’ve been in the biz forever, and here is this mid – 20’s office yuppie, telling me how he finished off his basement and built his deck, and built this and built that.
And this just wasn’t a one time thing, I mean I’m seeing this a lot.
It’s like a whole generation of remodeling experts…….time to change careers
Replies
I think the internet has changed things considerably. For the guys willing to do their homework, they can get quite knowledgeable. For example, a recent client knew all the obscure details associated with PEX plumbing and the minute details of open foam and closed foam insulation to name just a couple of items.
Runnerguy
Interesting! I'd agree. When I was getting ready to redo my basement, I did a ton of research online...with lots of great advice in here.I ended up going with the Building Science's method and was completely shocked that it met with blank faces down at the inspectors' office. It seems a bit of internet research allowed me to eclipse their knowledge of modern basement remodeling methods. Just in materials alone they seemed a good year behind the market. As for WHY people may do this more than they used to, I wonder if it has to do with all of us with desk jobs. We work 40+ hours in an office and actually look forward to a solid 12 hour's of manual labor on a Saturday once in a while.
>>As for WHY people may do this more than they used to, I wonder if it has to do with all of us with desk jobs. We work 40+ hours in an office and actually look forward to a solid 12 hour's of manual labor on a Saturday once in a while
That is what lured me into the trades some 30+ years ago. had neighbor that was both a patent and good carpenter.
It is all his fault I tell ya.
It's almost as bad as a whole new generation of builders doing design and construction plans ... ;o)
Jeff
Or patients telling the doc what the diagnoisis and treatment is.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I think every arcy should have to be a builder first.
Couldn't agree more, then there would be less mistakes for the guys who are trying to follow the blueprints.
"I think every arcy should have to be a builder first."
I don't disagree with you at all that real, hands-on experience in the field should be part of an architect's training. I also think that understanding the rudiments of design (formally, not in the field) should be part of a builder's training.
Reality is that we all pick up much of this in the field, hopefully with an attitude that there are many, many more points of common interest (budget, schedule, quality, etc.) than there are reasons not to work cooperatively. Let's forget the stereotypes and contribute to each other's knowledge base - isn't that one reason we are here?
If we can all bring an eagerness to learn (even at 50+ ;o) ), a little humility and an interest in *Fine* quality (which of course is the emphasis of this site) construction to the table there is much to gain.
Jeff
I agree with you also, but it seems someones ego is always in the way not sure whos? maybe mine, maybe theirs, sometimes both. :) I try not to tell them their plans suck with too much attitude :) I've taken some drawing and can build whatever is before me and draw alot of projects i build so yea i know where you are coming from.
btw my fil makes a living drawing. :) edit and you wouldn't want him to build you a dog house he thinks cause he can draw he can build :) hope he doesn't read this.
Edited 3/11/2009 10:23 am ET by mikeroop
What's an ego? ;o)Jeff
There's also a whole new generation of folks who screw up their homes, they see it on TV, buy materials at the depot, and call me when the door won't close, tiles fall off the wall, etc.
I'm thinking of putting "DIY Rescue" on my cards. God Bless them.
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.
- Fyodor Dostoyevski
There is a new Canadian show on HGTV Canada called disaster DIY. YOu could co star!
Have a good day
Cliffy
"I'm thinking of putting "DIY Rescue" on my cards. God Bless them."LOLMy first job as a handyman was for a guy who called me to drywall under his stairs. Just a few hours work, I thought. Turns out he had bought a 40" CRT type entertainment center and there wasn't much space in his condo living room, so he had borrowed a sawzall from his neighbor and cut a hole in the wall under the stairs - open above, closed-in below. He didn't want to cut through the 4x4 support for the landing, so he shifted the hole more toward the stair side; in fact, he cut most of the way through the outside and middle stringers. The stairs had already sagged about an inch by the time I got there to bail him out.Since then I tell people that the best referral for me is a guy with lots of confidence, no skills and access to power tools.BruceT
for the last eight month been work on this very very multi million project as lead quality assurance. we have 95 craftman on that job, 20 are true craftmans, 20 are chaulk and paint type, the rest are just plain uneducated stupid, give me a paycheck. we laid one off because he could not figure , why clean the hole before epoxying an anchor bolt. when the bolt pulled out two days later, just leave, leave right now.
I'm thinking of putting "DIY Rescue" on my cards.
Awesome.
No Coffee No Workee!
So they tell you about these behaviors?
How many have given you the opportunity to inspect the work? Two dollars says you don't see it because it's too embarrassing to the bragger.
Lots of them know a lot--but they know a lot that isn't so! They watch some TV show and think they are experts now.
They watch some TV show and think they are experts now.
I suspect that they get seduced by the all the smiling TV faces, carefully scripted explanations, clean clothes and perfectly prepared work areas.
Several of the home improvement shows I've watched are unrealistic in the way that they describe how simple and easy jobs are. I think that they do that just to keep their ratings up. Telling a viewer that he's going to be carrying heavy loads all day won't help there.
I've often noticed that no one on TV ever even breaks a sweat. The guys who do most of the physical work are top pros so they go through the process without wasting a move. When the host steps in to help, every move is rehearsed so that things go together perfectly and almost effortlessly.
I watched a hardwood floor demonstration the other day on PBS where the installer was so proficient and relaxed that any HO watching the show could easily believe that all he needed was the right tools, rented from HD, and a few hours on Saturday afternoon.
Edited 3/6/2009 6:28 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Ever see any of the out takes from the HomeTime series ?
Many DIY's are competant mechanics. They can follow instructions and get adequate results.
The big difference, as you pointed out, is that most pros are better craftmen and faster.
Many DIY's are competant mechanics. They can follow instructions and get adequate results.
I agree. I count myself among them. Other than carpentry and a few related skills, I'm just an avid DIYer, trying to stretch my limited budget and to learn something new which will serve me well in the future.
I get the same satisfaction as any DIYer from completing a project and achieving the result I was aiming for. Becoming more self sufficient has many rewards too.
Even after forty+ years of carpentry, I'm still learning new ways to work with wood so I'm really just an amateur at heart.
Right. I love it on Tv that they seldom, if ever, run into situations I almost always seem to encounter when I open up a wall in a remodel--walls not plumb, elecrical all botched up (buried junction boxes, splices not in boxes, etc.), and all the other little hidden "gotcha's." Watched This Old House yesterday and Tom Silva was showing some homeowner how to do something (finishing a basement)--and it just happens that it has real high ceilings, no water leaks (other than where there were steel connectors going through the concrete wall that held the forms together (whatever they call those things). No other water problems, so eaverything is quick and easy.
Almost every basement I've been in has a puddle in one corner or the other, or moldy, wet carpet, water running in through window wells and the owners can't understand why we can't just put up some new walls, or put in a laminate floor right on the wet slab, etc.
Don't ya love it when the guys on TV are installing a window, door, or cabinet, and he says "Let's check to be sure that it's level, square, plumb, & flush. Yep, it is."
I'm generally lucky if it's right-side up.
I'm one of those DIYers with a 40 hour desk job, and I can't wait to get home and fix something, or make something. I'm leaving now, and I won't touch a PC again 'til Monday.
Ha! I always love that part too!
"OK, after all that work I'm just gonna check to make sure everything fits together. Looks good. Alright, lets move on...."
Pardon me, but isn't it just a little ironic to be talking about how ignorant homeowners are and then refer to snap ties as "steel connectors going through the concrete wall that held the forms together (whatever they call those things)"?And which "pro" do you suppose buried the box in the wall in the first place? The electrician who cut the wires too short or the drywaller creeping up on beer-thirty?Don't make me get my strap wrench and come over there...
Hey Splinter, are you highjacking my threads again with your wit and beauty?
I just learned this morning that you're a female.....made me giggle.
Have you always been interested in the trades or is it us tradesmen that mysteriously draw you in.....(lol)
Taking her a while to respond cause she's gonna kick yer butt
Moi???I'm still filling mailers with dog meds, posting in-between. I called the factory to be sure i could scale them for bigger dogs. Everyone has huge ones and FRENCHY'S IS THE BIGGEST!!! This requires instructions for safe use. ;^)
it even worst when you go on a job with a expert contractor that been doing a job wrong for the past thirty years. At least some diyer have up to date info while the contractor set in his ways.
Good point, and on that note, I should always be on the ball and ready to learn new things so as to not get "schooled" by the homeowner (that would suck)
Guess I'll just have to keep buying these great Fine Homebuilding magazines to aid in my never-ending quest (nice segway there, maybe I'll get a mention in the next issue!!)
Have i hijacked you before? You must make your threads too enticing for me to pass by without molesting you. Yep, i've always been like this. I sold hand-knit mittens and socks in grade school, macrame plant hangers to stores when i was 14. I made all the cheerleader outfits in school colors, then sewed the pregnant cheerleaders' wedding dresses. I fully identify with homeowners who don't accept that this job can be done only by someone of rarefied skills and uncommon intellect. Truth is, 95% of it is pretty simple stuff the second time you do it. So, to answer your question, tradesmen aren't a particular attraction unless they leg wrestle, play a musical instrument, or beat me at Scrabble. The only people who should fear an informed HO are the ones who aren't willing to put the effort in to keep as current as the guy who has to live with the result when the contractor leaves. If [generic] you don't love your work, you aren't entitled to have an opinion on anyone else's. If you do love your work, you're entitled to teach the HOs why they should, too.
You and I did some chatting about a week ago about drum sanders. I remember saying to myself, "there's something different about this guy" (lol!)
Well, I'm impressed by your knowledge and courage to "mix it up" with us boys. It's fun in here.
Actually, this little "Breaktime" forum is a huge help in itself for everybody. I've only been in here a couple of years now and found it to be a never-ending well of information. I've posted questions and had them answered wihin minutes. I pick up tricks and trade secrets each time I log in.
If you have a desire to learn something, then by all means, I support you 100%. You could be a contractor or just a do-it-yourselfer homeowner, doesn't matter. More power to ya. I'm just amazed at how all this has seemed to catch on. The internet, the tv shows, all working together in some kind of orchestrated symphony....
uh oh, the beers are kicking in, even I don't know what I saying anymore....
If you think the forum is fun... You should come to a fest sometime.
Just watch out for gunner.... He likes to hose down the hippies.
Don't be standing anywhere near the hippies
So what are the fests like?
ALot of fun actually
The next one is supposed to be in Washington state.
Look under the Fest thread header and get your name in.
Some great free stuff give aways as well as yer usual B.S. coming out of our mouths. Lots of beer if the weather is hot and "fortified" coffee if it's cold.
Ah, yes, i did mention you should start a thread on the DIY/Contractor frontier, didn't i?Truth is, i'm a trouble-causer. I recall my first entry onto BT back in aught-zero was in a DIY v. Contractor thread. I got body-checked for suggesting a V-8 with ladder racks doesn't a professional make. Under the present rules of engagement, that thread wouldn't have lasted ten posts. Ah, these old-timer memories...i remember before Tyvek.The Net democratized the dissemination of information while the Big Box stores democratized the market. Both of those had to occur before the empowerment of the weekend warrior could take place, but the sort of disdain many here exhibit toward homeowners as a class instead of toward poor work by anyone (including other contractors) manifests in HOs willingness to forego the attitude and do it themselves.
You are a troublemaker, even when you tried to hijack that hairy injun with pilgrim kids!
I've always enjoyed your insight and wit on BT. Keep stirrin it up and keepin everyone on their toes.
Billy
I'm sure I do not fit the suburban DIY profile but I am building my own house from the ground up and doing the majority of work myself. The primary motivation for me was seeing the work done by my peers who are "professional" tradesmen, contractors, operators, carpenters, etc. solely because the only jobs offered to high school grads and junior college droupouts were in the construction industry. A lot of these guys I wouldn't let them mow my yard, let alone build, wire or plumb my house! Add in the huge labor costs and materials markups and it is easy to see the monetary motivation for a competent homeowner. The reality of building is that there are a few areas where a lifetime of skill and working knowledge will produce a better end result but a lot of aspects of building are easily managed by a skilled homeowner.A lot of these DIY'ers are FIXING!! substandard or code-minimum work done on their cheap tract houses to begin with. The cheap and fast building boom could be in itself the main culprit for the extinction of building tradesmen. Why call a pro when a "pro" effed it up the first time around?And the wealth of information readily available on the internet is almost the nail in the coffin. Just look at where we are right now - plus the FHB mag itself! The help of competant, caring, and generous pros make a lot of projects possible or at least turn out better and maybe even SAFER!Personally, I don't tackle jobs that are best left to pro's but I am saving a ton of cash and using much better finish materials by doing the majority of work by myself. In the two years I have been working on this project from design to almost ready for move-in in another month, I have seen the boom and bust of the construction industry. The guys who had no time and quoted me insanely high bids are now asking for work but still figure they need to get $50/hr+ and they want cash so as not to foul up unemployment benefits!From my experience, a lot of construction "professionals" out here pretty much asked for it...
Okay, you feel better now you put all us knuckle-draggin' incompetent slobs in our place?
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
He did an excellent job of putting the knuckle-draggin' slobs in their place, while giving props to the guys who know their stuff. Your interpretation of his post is interesting, though.
Hey, I didn't mean to offend anyone, sorry if it came off that way.I have nothing but respect for the "old-timers" and their experience and resulting knowledge base. I wish I could have spent time with my Swedish grandfather who emigrated and built some of the first custom homes in the Tahoe Basin. Unfortunately, a ton of true craftsmen of today's era will probably take most of their skills and insights to the grave due to the current building environment.
There are pro's who continue to educate themselves
and there are pro's who are ignorant
There are DIY's who continue to educate themselves
and there are DIY's who are ignorant
Myself, I have been interested in construction of all types since I was a kid, gained most of what I know from reading and research. Besides basics from my Dad, I am self taught, have never worked for another contractor untill recently.
But, I always considered myself a DIY er, even though I had renovated houses, built additions & garages, much of it as a contractor, for years. The change for me came after watching a well known and respected contractor replace roof trusses on my own home after some storm damage (The insurance company would'nt pay me to do the work because I wasn't licensed). I watched his methods and the way he did the work and realized I knew more than he did... So I took the tests and became "legit"
The real test though, as some one else posted, Is to make a living doing it.
One thing I found out quickly after I became a "production" framing carpenter after several years of weekend warrior, DIY projects, was that production work was completely different than putzing around on my own doing things taking my own sweet time. Production framing was "b***s to the walls" get it done right now, no time to puzzle things out or make everything absolutley perfect. If I stopped work to wipe sweat off my face, the boss was asking me pointedly if I needed something to do!
Also, unfortunately, safety was often lost in the rush. No time for harnesses and such--run this plywood up the roof, be careful, the wind's picked up! I can't count the number of times I fell or had close calls because ladders or scaffold boards or planks across the forks of a lift truck weren't secured. Once I stepped out onto a piece of plywood on a two story house on the side with the walkout basement to remove a cleat and as I grabbed the cleat, the plywood let go and fell to the ground, leaving me hanging from the cleat. The boss says, "Oh, yeah, was going to tell you I only got two thorns in that piece of plywood!"
Talk about coincidence, I worked for a guy similar to that last week. I couldn't take it anymore, so I politely left. I feared for my own safety because I could tell he was the type who just didn't give a s**t about his crew. He wanted to treat us (and pay us) as if we were illegals. No morning break, no afternoon break. He was just the "get it done asap type", no time for the little things, like squaring, leveling, etc... I thought to myself, I don't think this guy is going to take any extra time to set up staging, ladders, harnesses.
Guys like that will constantly be wasting their time staffing and always having to deal with new employees. If you're going to treat the crew poorly, that's what's going to happen. People will leave and you'll always be wasting your time running ads, screening calls, etc...
I've always treated all my helpers (and subs) with respect and in turn, they respect me. I still have a good amount of help to call on when the job permits. I know these guys, they know me. It's all good. I give them breaks, pay them when I say I'm gonna pay them. And most definitely put their safety on top of the list.
Yes, the guy I worked for was always in a hurry--I don't know how many times we started setting trusses and then I'd see that corners of top plates hadn't been nailed yet, or the walls hadn't been strung to remove bows or made plumb. He was too busy to look at the plans and so we'd build stuff one day and tear it out the next. (As I've said, "No time to do it right, but always time to do it over.")
That was the guy I told about before where we were working one night about 6:30 or so in winter and it was pretty dark and I took my hammer to open a bunk of wood by hitting the claw against the steel strapping and I'm whaling on the strap and it's not breaking. Finally held my hammer (a cheapo I got from who knows where, just always had it) to some light and saw that the claw was all bent over! Yeah, we missed lots of breaks and sometimes even lunches.
Hey, I didn't mean to offend anyone, sorry if it came off that way.
Nothing personal. I would say the same to anyone who ranted the same rap about DIYers.
There are idjits and flakes on both sides of the street, and knowledgeable carps in both camps, too.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
As I've followed this thread, I couldn't help but thinking about the question I posted a year or so back, asking how typical of the building industry Breaktimers are. There were lots of opinions as to typical or not. Still, I'm of the opinion that most of the posters here are far better than typical. I base this on my observations of various house builds over recent years. I have to think that so much obvious ignorance or incompetence can't be typical of those who post on this forum. Participating in forums such as BT or JLC, or just lurking regularly, to me indicates an inclination to be better informed and do quality work. Some of the crappy work I see in the field says that doing something the way it's been done for the last 30 years simply because that's the way it's been done all along isn't professionalism at all. Finding out how things are done, and done right, is how *some* DIYs do indeed become more knowledgable about, or even better at doing some things than *some* who are in the building business. Some DIYs should have to take a test before being allowed to even look at a hammer. Some *pros* shouldn't be allowed to swing one, but I doubt that applies to many of the BT posters.
I couldn't help but thinking about the question I posted a year or so back, asking how typical of the building industry Breaktimers are.... Still, I'm of the opinion that most of the posters here are far better than typical.
I couldn't agree with you more.
BT members are not the architypical 'construction workers' everyone loves to hate. But I think it goes beyond that.
Too much of what people think of you in today's world seems to depend on how good a 'press agent' you have. I hate that. I like to spend my time doing good work...not excercising my lungs blathering about how much of it I do and how good it all is.
But even at my winter job-job--where I am a unionised line-grunt with 16 years seniority working for a billion-dollar corporation--I find that if I don't take the time to broadcast every stupid little thing I've done during my work day, the big high mucky-mucks just assume I'm sitting on my skinny bum doing sweet bupkiss. Meanwhile, the jerks who do nothing worth doing--but talk loud and long and interminably about it in proper corpo-speak--win all the company incentive awards and wind up as 'team leaders' with an extra 50 cents per hour and a preferred parking spot.
In the construction industry, we have never been very good about controlling the bad press we get. All it takes is one or two creeps in an area who get caught doing lousy work or taking deposits and not finishing jobs, and the media go nutz about what a bunch of crooks and incompetents we all are.
And who listens to the media? Besides every HO in town, don't forget our dear, dedicated, hard-working legislators. The guys who make the licensing laws, and control (in theory) when and where and for whom we can work.
I've had a bellyfull of it all. All I want to do is practise my trade, make sure my clients are satisfied, and take home a reasonable profit so I can pay off my mortgage before the day arrives when I can no longer carry sheets of Durock up three flights of stairs.
But it seems that to do that, we (the good guys, I mean) are gonna have to spend more time singing our own praises.
Jeezus. What a friggin' world....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
But it seems that to do that, we (the good guys, I mean) are gonna have to spend more time singing our own praises.
We've had this discussion here a few times, how to promote ourselves as craftspeople and contractors.
I'm wondering if it wouldn't be a good idea to come up with a questionaire for the HO to fill out, after completion. Something similar to the cards that some restaurant chains leave on the table, to be sent in later.
By asking leading questions, the home owner would have to recognize that we actually made an effort to be exemplary, in all important areas.
The last question might be: Will you recommend our company to your friends and neighbors?
It's a bit manipulative, sure, but why not help the client understand where his/her respect should be expressed and why.
Using a written questionaire would allow for us to conduct daily business with simple courtesy and leave the self-promotion for later.
I'm wondering if it wouldn't be a good idea to come up with a questionaire for the HO to fill out, after completion.
I don't disagree with that idea, but the actual implementation of it might be somewhat delicate.
Figure a remod contractor, like me or a lot of us here on BT. I don't maintain an office or model house for clients to come to; I don't have a secretary, salesman, 'Customer Service' office staff or any of that jazz. My office is in my home; my clients see me when I come to their home. They don't see a 'company'. It's a very personal type of service, and I feel that's one of my strengths. I offer that personal connection where the client feels (rightly) that I care about their needs personally, and not just because my boss or some corporate marketing weenie told me to.
Were I to start handing out a written questionnaire, it could easily blow that image.
What might work, along those lines, however, would be a questionnaire that the client could fill out on-line. I do have a website, and I use billing and estimating software to tot things up and send all my invoices by e-mail wherever possible. If, with the final invoice, I simply included another attachment--the questionnaire--to be e-mailed back to me (anonymously, if desired), that might take the curse off.
Comments...?
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I've worked the same way, no office or corporate anything, since I began. It does make it more difficult to use a questionaire. I never have tried that and I agree that it probably wouldn't have the desired effect, for individuals like us.
My experience has been mostly like yours, clients just don't understand how important it is to our success that they make a small effort to express respect for our work to others. The other side of that is HOs are often lost when looking for contractors who are responsible and do quality work.
I'm arriving at the opinion, rather late in my business life, that something needs to be said at the conclusion of the job, to make both those points clearly to the HO.
I think, in many cases, that the process of remodeling is a bit more tramatic to the HO than we know or can understand. So they're just relieved to be done with it and not to have gotten screwed by the contractor. Relief isn't a strong enough emotion to cause them to sing our praises so the word just doesn't often get spread.
Anyway, back to the question of how and when to promote our work. I'm thinking that the best point of leverage and potential revelation is at the final payment meeting.
I believe that we have to get out of our shell at that time and make the effort to explain to the HO/business owner how important it is to our continued success that they let their friends and neighbors know that they've just had a postive experience with us.
I would also point out to the client that those friends, neighbors and business associates would be happy to hear of a contractor who can be trusted so that spreading the word should be looked on as being helpful to all involved.
I wish that I could turn back the clock and do exactly that now. I made the error of assuming that my work and my responsible approach to it would be enough to cause clients to speak well of me, without being prompted. That did happen, of course, but not as often as it should have, in my opinion.
So we need to prompt our clients to speak out on our behalf with enthusiasm, as a means to promote quality contractors over the irresponsible guys. When that happens, everyone gains, even the bottom feeders because they will be forced to raise their standards in order to stay in business.
Edited 3/12/2009 6:50 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
I had one client who really got me thinking about the importance of using timely leverage to gain allies.
I'd done a couple of major installations, a large inground swimming pool and a landscaping job with a series of small ponds and connecting waterfalls, at her home.
I happened to meet her in passing, a few years later. She was delighted to see me again, telling me how happy she and her family had been with all the work I'd done for them.
She mentioned that other people in her neighborhood had some bad experiences with small contractors and their work. That had made her aware of her good fortune in finding me.
I had to ask her why I hadn't had any referrals from her or her husband. She made the obvious excuse that no one had asked her who had done the work. I understood her point of view so I spent a few minutes, explaining why she should take a more assertive position about good experiences with small contractors, for the sake of all involved.
That one was memorable because she and her husband both had a noticable public presence in their community. Had they made even a small effort to promote my work, it could've made a nice difference for my bottom line. I had asked for that help from them, during the course of work at their home but, as I learned later, they had quickly forgotten me when they had what they wanted, a fine job which fit their budget.
That's been a recurring theme for me in business and it sounds like you have had similar experiences. That's the kind of thing that caused me to make the suggestion in my previous post, the "take the bull by the horns" approach.
===========================================================
Edit to add: There was a chiropractor in my local area who ran a sizeable weekly ad in the area newspaper, using a Q&A approach about the benefits of chiropractic. Each weekly ad made a different positive statement on the subject. It was like a minature advice column, complete with his smiling face in each one.
So when I found myself with a badly kinked up back, he was the first person who came to mind. The initial appointment was very helpful, though his talents were pretty limited as I came to discover some time later when I found a really gifted chiroprator who took the time to do more subtle adjustments.
Anyway, the first guy was really good at marketing his business. He did that informative weekly ad and he also did follow up mailings with patients, birthday and Christmans cards in particular.
As a result, his little country office, on the bottom floor of his old home, was always full of patients.
I can see doing something of the kind as a small builder, a weekly Q&A ad with a smiling photo.
Edited 3/12/2009 6:35 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
I think you will find that a lot of customers want to hoard a good tradesman so they have one up on their associates & smile when they hear others grumble
Had a customer once who would invite me to his personal parties where he entertained his big shot clients who were corp execs where he would display the latest creation either underway or completed
they all thought i was a employee of his and how brillant he was to have me ( we did work for him from Quebec to the carabean for 7 years ) when ever one of them wanted me to do any work for them he would get annoyed it seems he wanted me to be his excussively it seemed & maybe this is whats happening to you ?
That may be part of the mentality but most of my clients know that they won't be needing my services again for years, if ever. So there's no reason, not to promote my work.
That makes me think of another good reason, why clients should promote good contractors...because they might get a better deal on a future job, having sent work their way.
Edited 3/12/2009 6:55 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Instead of a paper questionnaire, why not incorporate one on your website and direct clients there after a completed project. That way you don't have to worry about an office address, support staff to record/file the information (this would all be dropped into a database immediately upon submission), or finding a stamp to mail it in.Once you've got the info, you can use it to start or supplement your marketing list. Plus, with it in the electronic format, you can more easily track any trends than you would by flipping through papers.One thing I think would be a big benefit to doing it online is that you can put in the same message at the end of the survey that you'd like to be telling them at the end of the job. "I'd be pleased if you referred me to your neighbors Mrs. Smith. After all, an individual craftsman can more readily attend to the needs of your house with an eye for detailed work..." At the same time that appears, it gives them the opportunity to forward your information to a friend. A quick email box allows Mrs. Smith to say "Sally, I know you are thinking about new floors. Peter did a fabulous job for us." That would be sent to Sally along with your contact info and maybe a portfolio photo or two.It's an easy way for you to get your message across, and for Mrs. Smith to act on it without needing to bump into Sally (and hopefully remember that she was supposed to mention you). Get people to act on their impulses and you've got a better shot.You might consider a gift for successfully completing the online survey. I'd do it for a t-shirt (which I also think is a pretty effective marketing device since it's got a fair shot at being seen by the neighbors, the very demographic you'd like to get to know), but my wife wouldn't. Maybe something like a free gutter cleaning instead. Gets you back to the house to make another impression on the client.Hope that's helpful.Best,Steve'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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I like that idea too and I understand the need to put good intentions into action, ASAP.
What I've been doing lately is Emailing photos of my work to people I meet through other interests, like cycling, with a brief description of the work shown. I ask them to remember me the next time they have a project and to forward the photos to other people. I only do this when I find a genuine connection with another person.
I used to have postcards made of such photos which I could use in a variety of ways to promote my business. One way was to put postage on them, then hand a few of them to clients whose job I'd just completed, asking them to take a few minutes to write a brief message and send them out to friends who might be interested. Of course my name and phone number were already prominently displayed.
Instead of a paper questionnaire, why not incorporate one on your website
Steve, you're psychic, dude!
I was thinking of you when I wrote that post about doing the marketing survey with an on-line form or e-mail attachment sent with the final invoice.
Question: How complicated would it be to create the code for a generic web-form that individual small contractors could modify (text-wise) to meet their particular needs?
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Hey TH,Well, it depends. Isn't that always the answer? LOLIt would be pretty easy to plug something like that in provided your site was already running some kind of content management system. Those systems make it easy enough for you (the site owner) to make changes and run new forms. Takes a little bit of figuring out, but after that it's pretty easy. They're all (or mostly all) open-source products. Which means no licensing fee, but you're going to pay instead in learning how to set the system up. Still, as opposed to the other options below, it's definitely the way to go for a project like this. Things get integrated and life gets easier. And you open a lot of doors for various web possibilities that just aren't there without a ton of custom work for the old ways of building something onto a static site.But, if you aren't running a CMS, then you've got to start from scratch. Build a database to hold all the replies. Build some kind of interface to see the replies, make any form changes or add new forms, and then build the initial form itself. You could do it, just like you could move 15 yards of gravel with a shovel, but I wouldn't recommend it. Worked ok in the past because there wasn't a better way. Now the CMS applications make this stuff seem rather dinosaurish :)The other possibility is just to build a quick and dirty form for a site that emails the information to you. But I think that's of questionable value, especially after you get past 10 responses or so. You've still got to find a place to store the data (just like with a paper, mailed in record), and there's no way (without a lot of cutting and pasting) to build a mailing list, or make sense of what the data is trending towards.'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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Yeah, I've seen the output from some of those e-mailed forms. Like trying to read John Dos Pasos, or the title of somebody's PhD dissertation. Owww....
I would be tempted to try to whomp something up using the Forms functions in DW (you knew that, LOL), but it would probably take me until the next Ice Age to get it running.
Besides Joomla (just the name of which makes me itchy), what other open-source CMS could you recommend to the guys here? I've heard of Word Press, too, but know very little about it.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Well, you can make the emailed forms readable, but it's more of a make work situation. If someone's already gone to the trouble of writing their info out for you, why would you want to copy/paste or retype it? If you were going that route, then yeah, you can gin something up in DW and just make the form action a mailto command.What was it that Hamlet said? Get thee to a database-ry?Wordpress (http://www.wordpress.org) works very well. I use it for smaller clients. I think it's a little more user-friendly on the novice admin side than Joomla. It's really blogging software, and not designed to build a full-fledged site out of; but you can easily put together an 5 page site with a portfolio with it. I know there's a form creator that you can plug in and run stuff. It's not bad, but I've been fighting it on a client's install this week.Let's see, other CMS applications...Drupal is pretty good, but I always think it's better for those who want to noodle with code than the turn-key administrator. There's a whole hat full here, and I think all of them have demos. http://php.opensourcecms.com/scripts/show.php?catid=1&cat=CMS%20/%20PortalsBiggest thing is to pick one that's well supported. Somebody's nephew could write a killer CMS, but if there aren't enough developers creating applications for that platform, well, then it's not really that useful. Any of the three above are very well supported.Give Wordpress a looksee. It's so easy a Canadian could do it!'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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Often when a past customer calls about work they are thinking of doing i talk them into going to suppliers im familiar with in town ( 25 miles ) usually the client is female and i try to get them to go for lunch at one of the better restraunts im familiar with ( vietnamese, chinese where im familiar with the staff . )
I treat the client good and tip the staff decently also so they speak nicely to me as i am in work clothes ( clean ) and the client is in casual
tih trick works real well even when the husband is trying to get the wife to take a alternate gc the wife usually just says she wants me because she feels comfortable using me and i have found the wives usually run the game
I learned that one off a client years ago who said meals were a lot cheaper than advertising and often you beat out cheaper competitors because you look like you got some class
got a $45 m job once and all i bought the client was a top grade hot dog and pop
the husband wanted to get 2 other bids but she won & i found out later he never took her anywhere for her opinion & she was doing the paying
dosent work evertime but neither does advertizing ( only failed me once when i took a husband to lunch but i got over 60 m of work later by switching to the wife )
He is a no class #### & she knew it i discovered later
got a $45 m job once and all i bought the client was a top grade hot dog and pop
When I was young, I occasionaly got propositioned by older female clients, under similar circumstances. I always deferred that kind of work to a sub-contractor, using an excuse about being silently engaged.
The client i was refering to is 15 years younger than me and built like a brick sh88 house yet she has never acted the least un lady like which i found neat
another one i have has bought me lunch often and i keep in contact when i am not to busy and buy her lunch
last week i was talking to her and she asked if i was interested in getting at some work on her cottage ( approx 65m ) this spring working with her boyfriend
privously did about 80 m on a rental property she owns working with her boyfriend
all her work is t&m and paid in cash as that is how she earns her money cause shes a call girl so having lunch with her now & again helps to keep in touch
one time i was taking her and my wife to lunch and my wife asked her what she did for a living and she answered her saying " i am a whore " my wife dident get here jaw off the floor boards for a mile as she hadent believed me when i had told her previously but the wife now thinks the woman is cool because she is honest
My wife tend to think most of my clients are stoners , drunks , dipsticks , ah,s and dead beats and the only reason i work for them is i couldent work for a sane person . PS: my wife works in the federal govt and i think they are all nuts !
" Love your customers but get your money off the table before the love wears thin "
" Women dont pay men who bang them " ( principal as old as humanity i was told )
all her work is t&m and paid in cash----------------Sure you didn't mean t&a?I understand the time part, but how much could she be making marking up materials, anyways? ;^)
Funny story...thanks.
There are the bad contractors everywhere. I tend to think the majority are ignorant and or lazy rather than outright crooked.There are also plenty of H.O's looking for the lowest bid and folks who build to that standard as well.
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.- Fyodor Dostoyevski
Another thought about the people who contribute here ...they (we?) are interested in the building profession.
Some guys who are working in the profession feel stuck, and would leave in a minute if they could make the same money somewhere else. They aren't reading about homebuilding in their time off. They don't care if the quality isn't as good as it could be. They're doing only what they're told, as little as they can get away with, showing up late, hung over, leaving as quickly as possible, and grumbling. Many of us have probably done that when working in the wrong place.
Keep on trucking.
Alot of the professionals here (myself included ) started off as owner builders
Have a good day
Cliffy
"professional" tradesmen, contractors, operators, carpenters, etc. solely because the only jobs offered to high school grads and junior college droupouts were in the construction industry. A lot of these guys I wouldn't let them mow my yard, let alone build, wire or plumb my house
sorry to hear you grew up around a bunch of idiots. :) I graduated from high school and turned down a scholarship to pursue a dream and i've made it come true. also i still consider myself young and will put my knowledge of what i know and my skills up against anyone. always looking to learn and improve though. got any tips? got any pictures of your house to post?
I was generalizing in my original post, but the fact remains that there are a lot of my peers who went into construction and make a good living in their trades who I personally know not to be the sharpest knives in the drawer. A couple of my best friends are doing great in construction management positions and have helped me out considerably but I'm not sure they know how to hang a door...I posted a thread on my house build, haven't updated any recent pics and I doubt this stellar search function would help me find it but I'll look.My framer was a high school dropout who does very well in his contracting business and is very talented building race engines on the side. Not slighting those who turned down higher education. I went to college for a vacation more than anything, not sure I would hire many of my college classmates to work here on the ranch either...I'll look for the picture thread and maybe fight with this forum software to post pics when I have more energy.EDIT: Pics are thread number 112940.1
Edited 3/11/2009 12:23 am by Haystax
I haven't seen it that much... And knowledge doesn't get the job done in a professional manner.... It takes a little skill to cut a straight line or break up some metal so it doesn't look like sheet....
I more get the type who ask me to "seal the ducts with mastic" after the house is complete. FYI - we do that anyway.
BTW - splintie won't admit it but she has a thing for guys in tool belts.... She's all grown up now so she likes the distinguished looking ones with white hard hats, collared shirts, and a pen in their top pocket. You know, the guys who carry around plan sets and point at stuff for a living...
I recently had a couple of 70 something spinsters look at a spec house I have for sale.
They noticed the radiant barrier roof decking and asked what kind of gas was in my Low E windows.
Definately caught me off guard.
Yeah, I think homeowners have pretty good recall of stuff they are seeing on HGTV and the like.
Maybe they've been reading Breaktime...
Yes Mike this is a good observation...now adays your gig has to be different and way cool. The days of the dry wall guy and framer scoring big are gone. The new economy will bring out the best in some of us.stinky
Not too many of them want to be up in the air 30+ feet working on their roofs - luckily for me and other brave souls !!
I have had many people call me to finish a roof . A homeowner has 3 buddys and they figure , Hey lets go to the beach, rip off a roof in 4 hours and roof it the next like on TV. What throws them for a loop is if you dont do roofing all the time the Charly horse monster sneaks upon you along with all sorts of aches and pains and blisters on baby hands that only hold a pencil.After a day or 2 they beg for someone to finish. If rains coming my price looks even better!!!!
When I lived ion CO, every year about late Sept or in october, I could count on several calls coming in just about the time the high country started turning white up there.Sometimes ranchers who figured they would roof it themselves all summer and never quite got to it, or DIYs building anew house who had poured foundation in may, and then spent all summer getting it framed up, and realized that they might just not have a roof on it before winter.Some people expected I would be lowering rates come fall to get plenty of winter work booked, but that is when I raised my rates each year
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I've got an upcoming job with slate and copper for a couple here. He's one of the best heart surgeons in the Northeast.
Anyone think he's going to take a month and stop operating so he can attempt to save a few grand ??
Even though I'm sure the skills he has are way more than would be needed to do the roof - he'll do his work and I'll happily do mine.
Hope the tooth is not flaring up at this point !
Thank for rembering, tooth pulled sitting here with bloody gauze pads hoping rez comes up with sum good jokes!!!!
Sorry to hear it had to come out.
Put it under your pillow and hope Ann leaves sumptin nice for ya !!
A noble effort for a friend in his time of trouble. I shall not forget this small act of kindness!!!!
for every HO that is capable, there's 4 more that won't even think about it, 4 more that think they can do and get in way over their heads.
I could clearly see the reward for the "office guy" and I commend them on their courage. Hell, if it makes you happy, do it. I'd kill for an office job at this point.
But fixing up your home has definitely become a craze of some kind. Homeowners just aren't afraid to do the kinds of things that I do now.
At this point, you'd have to find something your typical, daring homeowner won't touch, like roofing, chimney work, etc... if you want to get ahead.
Well as usuall, thanks for the comments, I enjoy all the feedback. After a stressed out day of sucking sawdust it's nice to shoot the breeze with the gang here.
Issue #202 just arrived, gonna crack a brew-ski and see what I can learn..
Yeah, my back cracker is a young guy, late 20's..he asked me to make him a ent. center in newly finished basement. He and his FIL did most of it.
I went to see what he had going on and by golly, they done good. Except for the FG batts on the ext. block walls, the framing and wet bar, bathroom and stairs was top notch. All Sears tools..LOL
I worked out a design with him and rough $. Time went by, finally he fessed up and said they ran outta $ and just mounted the TV on the wall..and shelves for the boxes.
Not bad for a chiro and an old guy.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
I dunno, man. In our search for our current house, we saw way, way too many houses that were wrecked by horribly DIY renovations.
The house we finally bought has had a lot of B+ renovation efforts. Not a disaster, exactly, but I'm going to be doing a lot of corrective work.
Oh totally--you have an entire 'do-it-yourself' industry targeting them, from home improvement shows, to books and magazines (like this one, gasp) to big box retailers all there to help a homeowner do it himself--or herself...
But, the homeowner can never gain the skill and knowledge that an experienced contractor has, by just reading a book, or watchinga tv show.
And that's that.
They are just better liars "20's office yuppie" give me a break.
Take a look at his hands. Any paper cuts?
You don't build with words or knowledge. You build with your hands.
And my hands show it. Big time! If he wants my job he can have it.
Good luck with that! Unless he likes sweating, bleeding, aching, working like a dog.
Don't get me started.
Edited 3/6/2009 11:45 pm ET by popawheelie
Edited 3/6/2009 11:45 pm ET by popawheelie
I think a homeowner can learn to do a fair amount of home improvement with good tool skills and construction coordination.
The trick is making a living at it.
I hear you. The folks I work for are definitely smarter than I am. And they know how to do research. I believe the internet is a factor.
Mostly they don't have the time for or interest in actually doing the work though so I'm still busy.
DIY has been around for a long time..
There were hundreds of books published in the late 1800's and the early part of the 1900's that detailed construction by and for homeowners.
Audels for instance was widely published and aimed at not just the pro but the everyday guy to teach him how to fix and build his own stuff.
Media is all that has changed.
Mike and ALL,
I'm definitely a DIYer, amateur type.
I have a home built by a respected builder in Plano, TX. 1983 model during building boom.
Since we've been here I've done lots of things that taught me to work around the crappy framing of my home. 9' walls 3/4" off. Roof framed with 2X6s on an average of close to 28"....many at 30".
When we re roofed, we had to have a contractor build a 22' triple 12 beam across the living room to jack up our roof since not only were rafters too far apart, there was no real support under the rafters.
Since then, I put a 16' triple 10" across the kitchen and raised the roof about 1-1 1/2".
I sell friges at Sears and when people come in looking at appliances for a new home they're building, I suggest they buy a 4' level and a square. Then, they need to just walk in with their tools and they should get someone's attention...
I also know my limits on my skills.
I read all the posts here and am interested in stuff I know nothing about.
Pete
Was this house built with a permit? If it was, where was the inspector?
MC,
When we bought the house it was 8 years old. When we had the wood shingles replaced, we hired a contractor to put the beam across our 22'X17' living room. There were no uprights to support the 2X6 rafters other than a purling up about 4' from the eaves which was a single 2x4. From that point to ridge, nothing but 4, split, warped 2x4s about 14'to the ridge. We added stiffeners to them and lag screwed them to actually straighten them.I put the beam across the kitchen because the single 2x4 purling sagged when there was an overlapping joint. This caused the ceiling to sag (a large skylight involved) and crack. The other 2 sides of the house seem to be ok. There was lots of lumber saved building this home.I called the builder who sent out someone to inspect the construction. I wasn't home and my wife didn't know how to question him. He later sent a letter stating he didn't understand why the original homeowner removed the supports and nothing further would be done. What!...unfinished attic you could walk around in due to heighth of roof. At that point I called the Plano city inspector's ofc. What I got was,
"well, that was back when they had so many houses being built, that they probably did a 'drive by' inspection." Then of course he said,"not much we can do about it now."Pete
I remember in the 70's and early 80's alot of carpenters went down to Texas to work due to the Reccession we had up here (I went to Alaska). When they returned they said there was a lot of shoddy construction going on and that it was really booming.
I'm sorry that people didn't do there jobs.
Mike I'm one of those diyers you are talking about. Not a smart one though but gratefull that I can come to a site like this and you pros are kind enough to help me out. I had to do the addition to my home myself because I could not afford someone to do it for me. As an ex ASE certified mechanic I see the same thing, lots of people fixing their own vehicles.
Hey, if you can do it yourself, and save money, why not. I do as much of my own automotive as possible. Good comparison there also. I'm not angry with DIY's at all, but was just commenting on how many more there are these days. When I was younger, I didn't have the type of friends who invited me over to help them build a deck or tear apart the house for an improvement project. But now-a-days, that's what this younger generation seems to do for enjoyment. At least from what I've seen.
Honestly, I don't think I could have done my addition without the internet., it is the modern day library of Alexandria.