So I got a four day weekend because of turkey day. How did I spend it? Ripping out everything from out master bath and redoing the copper supply lines and ABS DWV lines..YAY!
I had to redo all the copper supply lines to the rear bath. I really really really really HATE soldering copper. I am not a plumber, I don’t do it often enough to get good at it. I hate the hot flux dripping on me, the hot solder splattering on me, I hate being contorted up halfway inside a wall trying to solder some fricken joint and not burn the place down…
I bought a bottle of just for copper glue from these folks www.justforcopper.com. If you read their site and look at their ansi testing results you could come away with the impression that its the greatest thing since sliced bread. I was skeptical of course.
The instructions are pretty simple. Go over both sides of the joint you are trying to make with 60 grit sandpaper, don’t remove the copper dust. But a thin bead of glue around the circumference of both sides. Push them together and you have 5 whole seconds to twist the fitting 360 deg and get it lined up. Then 12 minutes later you are supposed to be able to pressure test it.
Well here’s what I found… the stuff appears to work. It certainly is a lot faster and easier than soldering (for me at least). I found that its not always possible to twist the fittings 360 deg so I did a 45 deg twist like you do with ABS. The glue does not stink (like abs-PVC glue). I did a ton of crazy up inside the wall joints and none of them leaked. I did have one leak on one fitting that I must of screwed up the application on. I think it was actually my first fitting that leaked. I drained the water line, put the glue over the leaking area and tried to blow the glue into the leak. It appears to have worked.
Who knows if it will last (like their lit reports). But for now this handy person is pretty sold on it.
Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
Replies
Please report back regularly on the results of this experiment. If it's still not leaking 50 years from now, and 107 year olds are doing plumbing then, I'll use it. ;-)
-- J.S.
Please report back regularly on the results of this experiment. If it's still not leaking 50 years from now, and 107 year olds are doing plumbing then, I'll use it. ;-)
Yea exactly, that's the problem its a new product without years of 'field testing'. Their website says that its now spec'd by the Colombian gov't for their natural gas piping (they use copper??). If it lets go in a couple of years, man that's going to be a big problem. The ANSI testing of the stuff did an accelerated aging test that it passed. They say its stronger than the copper pipe and will outlast it.....
Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
I look at home repairs from a real estate perspective. When you sell your house some day an inspector will likely go through the house and note any flaws, problems, or odd situations.I cringe when I look at houses where a mixture of different repairs have been done over the years. For example, I've seen houses where part of the water supply is galvanized (original) and then along the way someone replaced a section with plastic and then in another area copper was used.I recommend just sticking to standard, common, well accepted methods that will not stand out or look like a handy man did the repair job.Sorry if I've offended you.
I recommend just sticking to standard, common, well accepted methods that will not stand out or look like a handy man did the repair job.
Sorry if I've offended you.
Nope you havn't offended me. I will have to post a pic of the visible copper joinery that I have done with the glue. It does not look 'weird' to me. The only thing that looks different is the pipes are a lot cleaner looking and don't have that little silver ring of solder at the joint.
Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
Don't doubt it works as you say, but the company's web site provides no MSDS info, and they are based in Columbia, so if you have a problem/failure, you are $hit out of luck. I personally wouldn't use it on plumbing. Solder has stood the test of time. Maybe something else though.
WSJ
Edit: their statement "The bonding material could not require heat or generate heat, which eliminated epoxies." is false.........
Edited 11/29/2005 3:37 pm ET by WorkshopJon
Hi,
I think that maybe you misread some of the website. They are based in Arkansas http://www.justforcopper.com/cu.htm.
Nope, your right, their distribution partner is based in Arkansas the company is based in Colombia. I called and talked to the folks in Arkansas when I bought my bottle, they seemed like nice folks (they sent me the bottle and after I received it then they wanted me to mail the check). I asked them if there were any problems or questions who should I call and they said to call them.
They have the MSDS stuff up on their site also;
http://www.justforcopper.com/pdfs/JFC%20PRO%20MSDS%2015%20APRIL%202005.pdf
I'm not an expert at MSDS reading but it looks pretty benign to me.
I believe that the reaction is not exothermic. I made a ton of bonds and they never got warm that I could tell.
<!----><!----><!----> Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
Well, count me as interested. I have a similar mental block about soldering. I'm not as versatile as somefolks would lead you to think...LOLHonestly, I first thought this thread was a joke - and don't say you aren't capable of it ;)But I have a lot of faith in modern technology and I have been known to be first on the block before...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Honestly, I first thought this thread was a joke - and don't say you aren't capable of it ;)
Yea I know.... I read the testing reports and thought that I would give it a try. I don't plan on covering this plumbing up for a couple more months so if it springs a leak It'll hopefully do that before then.
It is a lot faster and easier than hot soldering.
Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
I'm not an expert at MSDS reading but it looks pretty benign to me.
MDSCI,
I read the MSDS. The product is predominately methacrylate http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=48303.6 .
An adhesive I have used it for well over 15 years. It is used to bond hard to bond materials likle nylon and teflon. It's strength is nothing close to that of the current "lead free" solders sold for plumbing work.
It works by mechanical bonding, and generates a lot of heat when catalyzed in large quantities. I don't think it has a place in pluming given it's relatively low [275F] failure temp. It is also fairly hazardous.
WSJ
Edited 11/29/2005 5:13 pm ET by WorkshopJon
Edited 11/29/2005 5:15 pm ET by WorkshopJon
It works by mechanical bonding, and generates a lot of heat when catalyzed in large quantities. I don't think it has a place in pluming given it's relatively low [275F] failure temp. It is also fairly hazardous.
You know its weird that its a one part glue. I don't know if it works the same way as straight meth. does. It appears to be anaerobic in that you can put the glue on both pieces and nothing happens until you push them together then bam you have a bond. They say its a covalent bond but I am not sure what they mean by that. Using the 60 grit to rough up the mating surfaces makes me believe that your right that its a mechanical bond.. but isn't soldering also?
I'm confused, the MSDS does not appear to say that its hazardous?? Yet you say that the main component is?
Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
………..Jackson Industries, Inc. provides the information contained herein in good faith but makes no representation as to its<!----><!----><!---->
comprehensiveness or accuracy. Individuals receiving this information must exercise their independent judgment in<!----><!---->
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MAD SCI,
I'm not a chemist, could be the copper acting as a catalyst, or like cynoacrylate and polyurethane glue, you need a trace of moisture. Most of their MSDS looked like they never did any testing.
What I found interesting was the claim of no heat build up as to why epoxies wouldn't work, as they have the least in general, and acrylates the most.
If you want an example, twist the corner of a kleenex, breath on it, then put a few drops of WATER THIN cyno on it. It will go "poof" in a couple seconds.
WSJ
In a covalent bond, neighboring atoms ( or is it molecules) share electrons with each other. That would make it different than a mechanical bond
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
> its a mechanical bond.. but isn't soldering also?
Solder forms an alloy with the topmost few atoms or grains -- not sure which -- of the copper. That's why you can tin the edge of flat copper, and there's no way you can peel the solder off. File through the tinning just slightly off parallel to the bond plane, and you'll see that it's absolutely stuck, no way to get it off. And there's no glue line, like if you do that with a veneer of wood glued to wood.
Try solder on aluminum, and you'll see the opposite. No alloy at all, a purely mechanical casting of the solder to the surface irregularities of the aluminum. Pops off easily unless you make some undercut holes in the aluminum to key them together.
-- J.S.
i suppose this stuff will not leech into your drinking water creating ill effects?
suppose this stuff will not leech into your drinking water creating ill effects?
I don't work for the company nor am I an expert in this product but if you read the webpage they claim that it will not. I guess it all boils down to whether or not you believe the websites claims...
Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
It is fairly unlikely. Methyl methacrylates are used as medical adhesives throughout the body. Therefore they have been as thoroughly tested as anything is, so the chance of something harmful showing up from the few parts per million or parts per billion that might enter the water is quite nil. I'd feel quite safe using it from a health point of view.
Veryyyyyyyy interesting thread, thank you! I was literally telling a plumber about this stuff last night and although I consider myself quite proficient at sweating pipe, it sure isn't a "skill" I'd mind leaving behind...
PaulB
So you'll get the job all sheet-rocked painted and complete go on a much needed week long vacation only to come back to a rush of falling water somewhere in the house. Well that's what homeowner's is for right/
So you'll get the job all sheet-rocked painted and complete go on a much needed week long vacation only to come back to a rush of falling water somewhere in the house. Well that's what homeowner's is for right/
I think you meant this for me...
Well with a diy'er that can just as easily happen with the solder method. Nothing is getting sheetrocked up for a couple of months so I will be able to check on the pipes often. I did the glue-up on Sat and it is now Wed. and still no leaks so maybe I passed that test.....
Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
I used that glue on a couple of things before & haven't had any problems.
That said, if I was doing a large job (like the new house my wife & I are building), the glue costs alot more than the materials needed for sweating a joint.
I never said anything about whether it would leak or not. I said, in response to an earlier post, that there is miniscule likelihood of health problems from using water from plumbing assembled with this material in the joints.
To think I don't trust the new copper presoldered fittings...JT
Sounds good to me. If your satisfied your golden. Time will tell more as the the efficacy of the method.
New materials and techniques always seem to have to fight the entrenched and well established conventional wisdom. Soldering and brazing have a long history. Hundreds of years with a good, if not perfect, record of performance.
I suppose if no one had ever connected copper pipes together before most of the methods would be accepted without much resistance. Given time some would work. Others less well. But even now every method has advantages and weaknesses.
Soldering with 50/50 used to be easy once you got the hang of it. It got a bit less easy when lead leaching into the water was noticed as a concern. Still are some plumbers that think the leaching of lead is a red herring. Some have been known to sneak in some 50/50 on difficult joints. A few have been spanked when caught.
Rumor is that one plumber when caught was forced to remove all the copper piping, have the house inspected without plumbing to make sure it had been removed and then the whole place replumbed. Inspector reviewed the pressure test and checked for lead. Story is likely apocryphal but not entirely without meaning.
Soldering, discounting lead by assuming the plumbers use lead-free solder, can have hidden issues. Flux, typically far worse a problem on cold water lines, can cause hidden corrosion inside the copper lines. I would think that your adhesive method would be immune to this problem as there is no flux.
Also no flame to cause fires. In tight places this might be valuable. Might be advantageous in some situations where flammable and explosive gasses, fumes or dusts may be present.
I wouldn't worry to much about the heat limitation. As long as water is present the joint isn't going to see anything north of 212F. A fire would likely melt out any solder too so good for the goose...
Soldering near a glued joint may be an issue but so is soldering near a valve. And the solution is similar. Wrap the pipe nearer the soldering with a wet rag. IMHO it shouldn't't be a big issue as long as the person doing the soldering is conscientious enough to note the glued joints and take reasonable precautions.
By any means time will tell. I salute your willingness to experiment. That's how progress is made.
By any means time will tell. I salute your willingness to experiment. That's how progress is made.
I just read something on their website that is giving me cause for concern... It says that if you twist the joint after the initial 10 sec it might not leak right away but that after a couple of days it will start leaking???? Thats not so great....maybe in a week I will report back that I got a million pin leaks in my joints.....
Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
Re: ..."if you twist the joint after the initial 10 sec it might not leak right away"...Solder and solvent welding too can end up leaking if the joint is moved while cooling. So that problem is not unique. Of course I don't know the relative sensitivity to movement between the two methods. Also, if your careful to not to move the joint once the connection is made, per instruction, it shouldn't be an issue.More an issue of training and technique than a product failure IMHO.
When you install your drywall, it might be a good idea to use screws.
I am quite impressed with the capability of modern adhesives but for copper why not just learn to solder.
Get a good quality trigger start torch, some mapp gas, a jar of flux, some lead free solder and a combo brush that has an end or orifice for scrubbing male/female in both half and three quarter.
Carry a wet towel to wipe down joints when you are done. It all fits in a small tool tray and it is relatively easy to do.
I have had horrible luck soldering sheetmetal but copper pipe is almost foolproof. the only difficulty is if you can't stop the flow of water 100 percent. The water/steam can be a bear to contend with.
Thanks for the thorough reporting on the glue.
karl
I am quite impressed with the capability of modern adhesives but for copper why not just learn to solder.
Get a good quality trigger start torch, some mapp gas, a jar of flux, some lead free solder and a combo brush that has an end or orifice for scrubbing male/female in both half and three quarter.
Carry a wet towel to wipe down joints when you are done. It all fits in a small tool tray and it is relatively easy to do.
I actually have all that stuff and I have probalby just passed the tipping point where I am more likely to be able to do it on the first go with hot soldering.
What can I say its just a 'job' that I freakin can't stand so for me this gluing copper thing could turn out to be a godsend.
Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
> I have had horrible luck soldering sheetmetal but copper pipe is almost foolproof.
Flat sheet stock tends to expand and warp when you heat it. If there are bends near the seam, they make it more rigid and easier to solder. If you can make a folded locked seam, that holds the pieces together and makes them easy to solder. If you're stuck with flat stuff, the only thing that worked for me was to do small stretches at a time, and clamp the living s--t out of them, like a clamp every inch to inch and a quarter. Cool and de-flux with a wet rag as you go.
-- J.S.
The Loctite line of threadlockers and sleeve/bearing/shaft retaining compounds are all methacrylate based. The strong ones are fantastically strong, easily the match of soft solder. As I understand it, the adhesive is inhibited from curing by the presence of air, and polymerization is catalyzed by intimate contact with metal. This technology you have found sounds promising, and probably less toxic than the flux fumes from conventional soldering.
Bill
depending on your state, things like this may not be approved for use.IIRC in Ma. something like this has to get approved by the state for use. and they are very slow in approving new things. Not sure if PEX is approved for use, without specific approval.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter
Ah, the conundrum of a state building its future on high tech while swimming in a morass of old school and union controlled beauracracies.;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
depending on your state, things like this may not be approved for use.
IIRC in Ma. something like this has to get approved by the state for use. and they are very slow in approving new things. Not sure if PEX is approved for use, without specific approval.
Hi Bobl,
CA seems really slow to change. Lots of plumbing methods that are accepted in other states are not code here yet. But just because the 'Man' has not officially approved a solution does not make the solution bad.
Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
"does not make the solution bad."aboslutlybut still, if not legally acceptable, the man can make you tear it all out.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter
"The Loctite line of threadlockers and sleeve/bearing/shaft retaining compounds are all methacrylate based"
Bill,
I compared the MSDS's of Locktite Red (Their strongest) and the adhesive in quetion here. Both are ~80% POLYGLYCOL DIMETHACRYLATE with slight variations in the filler components. Hardly, IMO a novel invention. I'm still sticking with solder. Having soldered hundreds of joints, and having only one or two leak due to poor prep on my part, why risk it?
Jon
Jon,That is what I suspected. Although not a novel chemical, it is a novel application of that chemical. Isn't this called technology transfer? They may have had to do some work to make the system robust in water service, and the copper environment may require a chemical tweak that is different from compounds optimized for steel bolts.I have soldered 1000's of joints, and feel comfortable doing it, but there does seem to be a niche for this technology, if it proves reliable. In the end, it all ends up being about workmanship, whichever technology is used.Bill
What happens if you have a pin hole leak? How the hell
do you get it apart? If you have that happen
with solder, you can usually just reheat it
and hit it with a little solder.
How the helldo you get it apart? "
Heat it to ~300F-400F. Problem is....if you can't pull it apart due to space limitations, then all you can do is start cutting and splicing.
WSJ
The Loctite line of threadlockers and sleeve/bearing/shaft retaining compounds are all methacrylate based. The strong ones are fantastically strong, easily the match of soft solder.
You know I forgot about that. Joints made with thread locker red can not be taken apart without a torch. How in the heck strong does the joint need to be anyways. Copper water supply tubing is not structural. You have to support the runs and the stub outs...
Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
Why not just replace the removed copper sections with a PEX solution?
Why not just replace the removed copper sections with a PEX solution?
Hello Nuke,
Because PEX is not code here yet in my city. I figure I can sneak the gluing by the inspector because its at least copper-heck if I painted a little ring of silver paint around the union I bet you know one could tell the difference. Well actually this 'adjusting' of the plumbing is not going to be inspected officially, but it will be in view of the inspector when he comes to look at other things.
Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
Because PEX is not code here yet in my city. I figure I can sneak the gluing by the inspector because its at least copper-heck if I painted a little ring of silver paint around the union I bet you know one could tell the difference. Well actually this 'adjusting' of the plumbing is not going to be inspected officially, but it will be in view of the inspector when he comes to look at other things.
Oops, I had not thought abut that. I know what you meant, though, about codes. Real roofs over bay windows is not code in my county. And since its not code, an open to the outside bay window will not prohibit a builder from getting a certificate of occupancy. Dumb Gwinnet County.
I take it, then, that you have inquired with the county on this. At least you have a mechanism to find out codes. For homeowners, its a F-O condition by the county. I'd have to go get a business license and call myself a builder for them to talk to me.
my boss glued his whole house with copper and cvpc glue. It lasted about four seconds, and hes an engineer, a PE. 2+3=7
I don't like engineers. They scare me. I still have not gotten over that bridge that swung its way into oblivion.
I don't like engineers. They scare me. I still have not gotten over that bridge that swung its way into oblivion."
Nuke, Nick?
Oh so true.
I work with mechanical engineers all the time. Most are OK, but all too many truly lack field experience...often of any kind. What are Universities turn out are people who know calculus, and algorithms, but often can't tell something that is destined to fail just by looking at it.
Now the people who can, often have at best, an associates degree, which doesn't mean much to the powers that be.
WSJ
Edited 12/1/2005 11:04 am ET by WorkshopJon
Funny that engineers scare you. Your profile says you are one.
remember the engineer I told you about last year that was building a pole barn for a house and carried his PE stamp in his pocket to piss off the local inspector. same engineer.. 2+3=7
my boss glued his whole house with copper and cvpc glue. It lasted about four seconds, and hes an engineer, a PE
OMG that is priceless!
Do everything you do to the very best of your ability, or don't bother doing it at all.
Edited 2/6/2007 2:31 am by steve@reliable
I once taught a PE how to read a level... no BS!!!
take it, then, that you have inquired with the county on this. At least you have a mechanism to find out codes. For homeowners, its a F-O condition by the county. I'd have to go get a business license and call myself a builder for them to talk to me.
Its going to be a don't ask don't tell thing for me with the city.
I know what you mean about the BI dept not wanting to give an HO diy'er the time of day. It cracks me up whenever I read this line in a home improvement article, 'Check with your building dept to see what they recommend...'. I tried that once and they recommended I pay a pro do to it for them. I think its just laziness on their part. A 'pro' is not going to be asking them as many questions as a HO would.
Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
Looks like some interesting stuff but I would be a little concerned about the opinion of the building inspector. I would sure hate to glue up a bunch of fittings then have the inspector shoot me down - lol.
Looks like some interesting stuff but I would be a little concerned about the opinion of the building inspector. I would sure hate to glue up a bunch of fittings then have the inspector shoot me down - lol.
Yea I guess I'll be the canary in the coal mine on that too... The work I am doing now is not going to be inspected offically but it will be visible to the inspector when he comes to check out some other stuff....
Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
I used this stuff about a year ago on a spot that i put in a t for a boiler drain. It's exposed in a mechanical room near a floor drain so i could keep an eye on it. So far it's worked fine. I even twisted one of the joints about five minutes after i set it up but still no leaks.
Thought that I would give y'all another update to the glued copper story. This past weekend I realized that I had to redo a lot of the supply plumbing to my back bath (this is different than what I did the previous weekend which was move the stub outs). It was all run below the joists and thru a joist bay that I am going to need to run a heating duct in.
After moving a lot of pipes and making a ton of glued copper joints I have a slightly different opinion of the product.
First, its a lot fussier than hot soldering copper. You have to follow the prep rules strictly or it will leak. I did not and now have several leaks. I reused the old copper and did not clean the ends completely-result leaks. I tried to glue up a connection with water dribbling out the pipe and it leaked...
You fit ups all have to be straight-true. You can't cram a pipe into a fitting wonky and expect the glue to work. When I hot solder I often 'tweak' things to fit. No doing that with the copper glue.
Second, you won't know if there is leaks right away. Just filling the pipes with water won't tell you. You need to run the water thru the pipes for a bit to wash away all the not cured glue and to possibly expose some leaks.
Third, there is no easy way to fix a leak. All of my leaks are verrrrry slow drips but I am going to have to cut out the joint and remake it...that sucks. The new lit from the company does not say to heat the joint to 400 deg F and then pull it apart. It says that if the joints been glued up for more than 30sec you are going to have to cut it apart....this is not so great.
It was $20 bucks locally for a bottle that is supposed to do 200 1/2" connections. Definitely more than what the solder-flux-mapp gas would of cost me. But it took me at least half as long...even with the screw ups. If my time is not worthless then heck I think the copper glue is a better deal in that respect.
I originally thought this stuff was the greatest thing since sliced bread, now I am not so sure. I want to blame my leaks on my own bad prep work but who knows. I will remake the leaking sections this Thursday and fastidiously follow the prep scheme and then if I have no leaks I would recommend this method.
Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
OK - so what is your opinion after a year?
My concern about this stuff (as a remodeller) is the mechanical integrity. When replacing valves,etc. in a basement I'll often have to bend down lengths of pipe to drain the water out. Wonder how it would hold up to this?
Mike