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I am a few days away from finishing a high end remodel. The client is going around to my subs and employees asking for names and numbers so that they can come and do more work immediately after I finish.
The good news is they are happy with my team and by all accounts me also. All the parties who were solicited have come to me and told me of this. Some of the work was discussed with the client and declined based on cost.
I am hurt and angry, as my ultimate goal is a satisfied customer, who will become part of my referall network. This behaviour would indicate to me that this will not be the case.
I am certain that the goal is to save my fees. How do I protect this facet of my business.
Replies
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Hey whoever you are,
The client is a schmuck.
If you're the GC, there ain't much you can do about that. Too bad. Your client should have enough class to ask you first if it's OK with you. Maybe you should explain the protocal with the client. He probably doesn't know it's considered bad taste to go behind the builders back.
Your subs are in business for themselves. But they should know that this homeowner is a one-time shot and that you, as a GC, can give them years worth of work. I don't think they would want to risk pi**ing you off for a one shot billing.
Ed. Williams
*This sort of thing happens all the time. "Why not cut out the middleman" says the homeowner. He sees who actually does the work, puts two and two together and tries to steal your guys. When I was trimming, I was always being asked to come back and build a cabinet or something. I'd tell the G.C. and give him a cut if he wanted. It's human nature, won't stop so you gotta learn to work around it.
*If you are worried about whether the customer will give you good referrals, act like you don't know what's going on, be cheerful, and treat the customer as well as you can. This will get you the best referrals.If you are worried about being cut out of the loop on more work, don't be. Most of the rest of the work is probably small potatoes and not worth your time anyway. Move on and get your eye on the next projects. Maybe you and your last client are getting tired of each other. Good luck.
*I worked at a company where half a roof was sold and installed. the homeowner hired the sub to do the rest of the house. The part the home owner hired the sub directly for leaked and damged the interior. the homeowner sued the original General contractor even though they did not contract to have that part done. The Judge said the sub was an agent of the GC and therefore awarded the suit in favor of the homeowner for over $10,000.00. I don't think you can ignore this situation so easily.I do know that if you are giving a referal (such as a painter to a homeowner)you must give three names to the homeowner so they can pick for themselves to avoid an extended responsibility.
*Wow, Four very different and insightful answers.Ed, you are right, its obviously in bad taste, but only to other contractors I think. And yes I believe the subs and employees know what the score is. I do feel the need to educate them at the risk of hurting an otherwise glowing referral.Jim, yeah, as a sub thats what I'd do too. And I have.Schelling, thats probably the best advice and what I need to hear. I am not always know for taking the best advice.Rick, that is what I call the fourth door, aka seeing outside the box. I'm sure there is some liability there, though the risk of poorly installed trim biting me in the ass will not keep me awake at night.I waiting to see if anyone will suggest another course that I am thinking of.
*A story about referalls from this type of client.A G.C. (not me I did window service work for the guy)did an extensive remodel for a partner in a large law firm. at the end of the job the client puts his arm around the contractor & says you know, I'm taking $3,000.00 off the final price as it will not be worth it to you to chase me for it. The contractor checks with his attorney, finds out its true , sucks it in & takes it. Now the contractor takes a job for another client from the same firm. A refferal from the first client. Guess what happens at the end of the job. Do you want referalls like that?
*Gotta' disagree. One, to act ignorant of the facts is objectionable and represents a lack of honesty and omission of prudent business practices. Second, would you want a referral from this guy? Sounds like he could end up being the high maintenance/low margin sale. Third, you never know about referrals. I've struck gold with referrals and in fact, most of my business is referral based. That, I'm very happy about.To answer the original Q, I would think the only recourse you have is to discuss the protocol with the client, then having done that, talk about the value of the relationships your subs have with you and try to distill the importance of protecting that relationship.This scenario has played out before. It's wise to always stay above board with all the players. If something large comes of the referral, the sub should give the original GC first crack at it. This is called professionalism.
*First of all, you have some really good subs who seem to be respectful of your business and your working relationship. They came to you and told you all about the offer from the client. Good subs will do this. Bad subs will take the work, without so much as a backward glance, or care in the world about what you might think about the situation.There are a couple of recourses here that you could use.1. Tell the subs that you are not happy about them taking work behind your back like this, and forbid them to do so (if they ever want to work for you again) Some contractors have their subs sign contract clauses to this effect, which will not allow them to take work solicited by anyone at the jobsite other than you. This prevents the homeonwer, other contractors, and neighbors from hiring the subs and cutting you out of the process.2. Show a little respect to the subs (who have shown respect to you) and let them take on the small jobs if they want to. This allows them to earn a little money on the side, keeps their crew(s) busy, and makes everyone happy. Good subs who are respectful of your relationship and business won't do this all the time, but the few times they do will earn you browny points for being an understanding and good hearted contractor. Who knows, they may even cut you in for a little piece of the action since the work came from YOUR client, and your jobsite (you could specify a cut if you feel so inclined)The biggest problem with this whole thing arises from subs who do not notify you, and keep all the conversations, offers, and scope of work secret. They tend to do this on every job that they can, and some even initiate the first contact by offering their services at a substantially reduced cost. Treat your subs well, and they will treat you well.Just a thought...James DuHamel2.
*Rob,In all my days, I've never done work for a lawyer, never will. It's not that their all bad eggs, but when it comes to suits they got you by the gonads...I fear the pain.
*JIm,With that thought in mind, bar owners are worse. Never again.
*I tend to shy away from engineers. Nothing is ever good enough. I had a two foot towel bar that was out of level less than 1/8". Client had to call his wife at work to see if he should pay me.Barry
*PseudonymPerhaps you should look at this in a different perspective. When you decided to become a general contractor, you knew that the property owner has a right to act in this capacity and not avail himself of your services.When the carpentry contractors, plumbing contractors and other specialty contractors chose their respective occupations, they knew that a property owner need not avail himself of their services and could act in those capacities himself.When the carpenters, plumbers and other mechanics chose their occupations, they knew that if the property owner performed his own labor and did not contract with them for their services that they would not be employed.The further you are from being a necessity, the further down the 'food chain' you are. You cannot blame the property owner for cutting out what he perceives to be an expense he does not wish to pay for.
*Robert Haugen,Your observation is quite correct with the exception of one overlooked fact of life.The property owner is acting dishonestly.If he had looked the general contractor in the eye,up front, like an adult and stated "Mr.GC,I feel you are the bottom of the food chain and your services are a needless expense. Please introduce me to your skilled and dependable subs and employees so that I may cut you out of the process."Do you think Mr.GC would have expended any time,energy or money to do so? OF COURSE NOT. This is why the property owner is sneaking around behind the Contractors back,like a thief in the night.The property owner knows his behavior is shamefull or he wouldn't have to sneak around doing it.The Subs were behaving honestly and ethically by letting the GC know what was going on. The subs sound like a group of stand-up guys,the property owner sounds pretty snakey.
*StephenPseudonym stated he completed what he was hired to do. All the work that was to be done after his contract was completed is fair game for all concerned.As a carpenter, I have worked on many projects where I did not know the carpentry contractor or general contractor prior to my engagement on the project. The fact that a carpentry contractor is employed to award contracts to mechanics to perform carpentry labor and to award contracts to materialmen to supply carpentry materials is meaningless to me. If I did not know the carpentry contractor or general contractor before I start work on a project, do I owe allegiance to them if I am approached by the property owner to do other work? I fail to see the connection. Under the law of the state I live in, it is contemplated that as a mechanic I can enter into a contract directly with the property owner if the property owner wants to act in the capacity of carpentry contractor. If the property owner wants to employ a carpentry contractor in an agency capacity to negotiate contracts on his behalf, then that is also allowed. But I feel no allegiance to his agent. His agent has no say over what I do in my work as a carpenter.A carpentry contractor's job is simple. Procure the necessary carpentry labor and carpentry materials for the job from the mechanics and materialmen. If the property owner wants to do this, then fine. If the property owner wants to hire an agent to do this on his behalf, then fine. But no allegiance is owed to a mere agent.The same logic applies in the employment of the carpentry contractor. If the property owner directly employs a carpentry contractor, then fine. If the property owner wants to employ a general contractor to employ the carpentry contractor on his behalf, then fine. But does that carpentry contractor owe allegiance to the general contractor who employed him? I think not. The general contractor is also a mere agent. In the natural order of things, there are two carpentry related occupations. The first is the mechanic who works with his hands and tools and makes contracts to perform labor. The second is the contractor who employs the mechanics who make the contracts to perform the labor. The mechanic owes no allegiance to any contractor employed to contract on the property owner's behalf.
*Robert, First and foremost, this is not about the law, or contracts. Contractually I could roll over these folks and suck them dry. Its about honesty and integrity. I hire subcontractors to work for me. They are directed by me and paid by me independent of my relationship and contract with the homeowner. If they screw up we work it out together, if I screw up I pay. If you feel no allegiance to this agent or this relationship, we'll be done after the first job.The homeowner did not have to avail themselves of my services, this is true. But they did. I have been completely honest in my dealings with them. Their apparent belief is that anyone who makes money on a mechanic is dead weight. So what did they initially call me in for. Who stocks materials for the mechanics and cleans up after them. Who bills for them and coordinates their services. This is a job that needs to be performed. Incidentally, I don't make money on my subs, I collect salary and overhead in proportion to the quantities of work that I sell, manage and stock. Robert, where is this fantasy land that you live in? Do all the "mechanics" there work in perfect harmony? Is it a democracy where the the electricion can go before the plumbers and hvac if it makes there job easier? I know for damn sure that the none of them clean up after themselves. Do you, oh great one, stake out the lots and dig the foundation? Do all the mechanics read and interpret the plans independently? Do the homeowners meet with all the subtrades, and if so how do they find the time with their regular jobs?You are a certified nut, but I'm pretty sure you already know this. Please answer these questions and maybe redeem yourself.The bottom line as stated by Stephen is that the homeowner exhibited dishonest behaviour. I would have gladly referred my mechanics (but not my employee) if they had just asked. Why did they not ask? They had asked me if one of my guys could come out on the weekend and do some work. I am always inclined to say yes. Although they are free to ask, my guys seldom want or need to work the weekends even at time and a half. They tell me this. Sure they would work for an inflated cash wage, that is not fair play. I explained this to the client, and also that I frown on this type of relationship because they could not have the appropriate insurance and payroll mechanisms in place to protect my employees. They agreed but went after them anyway. A similar topic was broached regarding sub labor. And they still went behind my back while maintaining to me that everything was excellent. And believe me I give my customers every opportunity to tell me if anything is not to their liking. So dishonesty for their own benefit is the only possible reason for this behavior.I am prepared for the inevitable, that something all of the sudden is wrong with some part of the job and they don't want to pay for it.Hey live and learn. I'll let you all know how I handled it.
*Pseudonym, I hear you. I've had this happen to me once that I know of. Its low and its wrong. After providing a job well done they want to cut you out of the future loop. It sucks. But what to do? A non competition clause with a resonable time frame..for you. Good will is a real thing that you gotta protect. This clause addended to your contractwill prevent this from happening again. Some people put money ahead of all else to theirown detriment. What comes around... Dan-O
*I can see why you might be nervous about the rest of the job going smoothly, especially when it comes to getting paid. Whenever I feel that a client is not completely trustworthy, I get the same feeling. By the same token, how much more work do you want from the guy? All of us agree that he is dishonest to some degree but what can you do about that reality? Get it done and get paid. When you are completely finished you can decide if you want to do any more for him. Some people are just plain cheap and let that dictate their morals. Let's keep it in perspective. We've all worked for people like your customer and will again. I just make sure that the aggravation factor is figured into my price.
*Your client is a thief. Plain and simple. I've had it happen once and I told that to their faces and told my subs that if they dealed with the thief, they would not deal again with me. I repeat this story to all new subs and causualy repeat to clients who seem to have that gleam in their eye. Blow those bozos off and protect your investment.
*I totally agree with Mark. In 5 sentences he's summed up this situation, and I especially like his reminder to you and the rest of us that our #1 priority is protecting our "investment" which is our time, money expertise and reputation.Sometimes it's best to lay your cards right on the table, and in this case, in no uncertain terms. Sleaze must be made aware of sleazy tactics -period!
*Sorry guys, as a homeowner who generally agrees with the the folks who post here when it comes to client/buisness disagreements, I see this one differently.If I hire you to do a job, your responsiblity is to do that job. The client's responsiblity is to pay you for the work you've done, hopefully both the work you have to do and the amount the client pays are spelled out clearly in the contract. Once the contract is complete, you've got no buisness in determining who I hire to do more work for me. You don't own your subs, they can work for whoever they want, if you don't want them working for anyone else, hire them as employees. But for that matter you don't own your employees either. Outside of the time you are paying them for, they to can work for anyone they want (obviously they can't shouldn't be using your tools, trucks,etc or your name).For example I may very well choose to hire you to build an addition on my house. I realise that an addition involves a lot of different trades working together, etc, and that your expertise as a GC will be valuable, and therefore I hire you. While you are doing the addition my wife tells me she'd like the tub in the master bath replaced. I realize that replacing the tub is a fairly straight forward job, and therefore hiring a you as GC to replace the tub, is simply adding expense for me. I go to your plumbing sub and ask him to quote me a price to do the tub, he does, I agree, you wouldn't have got the job anyways as I don't want a GC for this job, so why are you unhappy?Note my assuption is that any sub worth his salt is not going to do my tub ahead of your next job for him. Your where his bread and butter is, my tub is a little extra spending money if he wants it. He'll do the tub when there's a couple day break between jobs, or perhaps in the evenings or weekends if that's what he wants.I really am unclear why this bothers the GC?
*Caleb, When a GC comes to perform a job at your home they bring more than men and materials. Any job is an abstract idea that is made real by virtue of hard work, skill and experience. And good will. When you engage those involved in the work you tacitly exploit a GC's working relationship. It goes against common decency to be opportunistic in that way. Its ill mannered and a shot to those who've embraced you in a working relationship. You say, "You don't own your subs.." Are you for real with that kind of nonsense? My guess is you're "unclear" with regard to making and keeping a working relationship. Trades people are aware of this and hopefully this post is beneficial to you. Dan-O
*Caleb,Go back to my earlier post. Ditto. You did not go out and find that plumber, I did. And that did not involve opening up a phone book and picking him out of random. I spent a lot of time cultivating a relationship with him to insure the very best service to you. I bring him into your home, and bingo, you go staight to him. Whadaya think I am? A dating sevice?Now, if you were honest and ethical, you would come to me and say, "Mark, the wife wants a tub in the bath and I was thinking of asking your plumber if he would do it on the side. What do you think about me doing that. I wouldn't want to insult you."I would repeat from my earlier post and add, "There is no such thing as side work." Go out and find you own plumber, (do your own research) and and don't call me.Amazing how this thinking came be rationalized in this business, yet not in others. Wouldn't do it to your doctor, lawyer. Hell, if you wouldn't do it to your grocer!
*I don't know about Caleb's area, but around here everyone knows who the best plumber is and who all the masons are. There just aren't that many competent (or otherwise) tradespeople around. The service that I as a GC provide is primarily in coordinating these trades with the rest of the project and in taking the overall responsibility for the job. Hopefully I make money doing this but if not, I have only myself to blame. Of course my customers are going to call my subs for additional work. They have no (or little) choice. I can't say that I give this a second thought. I do worry if for any reason I feel I have lost the trust of a customer or if I have lost trust in them.Maybe if I lived in a city, I would feel that I had more value as a broker of my sub's services.
*I agree with Mark. It takes years to develop a relationship with various subs, and that includes "how" the sub does his work. It also costs a GC money to do that. In several cases I've worked with subs to improve their business and the way they service the public. It's like an employee taking side jobs developed from "my" business. I spent the time, marketing, PR, and all costing money to develop those clients. If the employee , or sub, wants additional projects, let them develop whatever needs to be done for him and the client to meet, and for the client have the attitude that he's presold on that sub - on the client's expense.In all fairness, many members of the public simply don't understand our side of the equasion. It's up to use to advise them, tactfully at first.BTW Caleb, many perform differently whe working for the public on thier own. Just a few simple examples:(1) I require my electrician to twist wires together before applying a wire nut, not just sticking 2 or more straight wire ends into a not and then twist the nut. I also require them to wrap the wire around the side screws for improved contact, as opposed to just sticking the wire into the smal hole in the back of the recep or switch. (2) No wood, absolutely no wood to be used on the exterior as trim or facia is to be installed without backpriming and priming "all" cut edges - for obvious reasons. Painters are mandated to use drywall primer on new drywall and not just use the finish paint as a primer. You don't know why but I do. Drywalls must use both screws "and" drywall adhesive, and not Liquid nails. Guess what happens when you hire these subs or employees direct? They revert back to "their" way.
*I'm honestly still baffled by this (see my comments below), but I'd like to understand why we have a difference of opinion. My goal when I hire anyone is to get the best job for a reasonable price, and I understand just how important the trust / relationship factor is in making things go smoothly.Is your main complaint in me "stealing" your sub that you've invested a lot of work in "finding" that sub, and I'm cheating by letting you do the work to find a good sub, then I use him?Why do you care, knowing you haven't lost anything by me hireing this sub? If I hadn't hired him, I would have asked around to find some other good sub. Either way you gain nothing and lose nothing that I can see.I'm starting to wonder if like Schelling says this is a regional thing. Around here, the subs tend to work for a bunch of different GC's. There is also a limited number of good subs in each trade. If/ when I hire a sub to work directly for me, to them I'm effectively just another GC. No one (the GC's included) seems to even blink at someone hireing a sub to do a small job on the side. Given how touchy some of you seem to be on the subect I can only assume the whole GC/sub/client relationships must be quite different where you are.BTW, having just built my own home (did most of the maual labour ,but subbed out things involving skills I didn't have), I have the utmost respect for GC's. The house is turning out great, but has taken about 5 times as long as planned, at least partly due to my own ineptness as a GC (as well as my ineptness at many of the trades I've done).
*Caleb, Your baffled. Why? Perhaps your money is as good as anyones. And what's wrong with that anyway? What's funny is your "I'm.. just another GC..". Its apparent now what you are. A real GC...................generally crooked!!!!!!! Dan-O
*Sonny, I've read a lot of your posts both here and over at JLC. A lot I agree with, some I don't. One of your big pushes is thinking like the big guys in doing business. On this one, you're not thinking like the big quys. With the big quys, on one job you're teamed, on another you're competitors, and this can be going on at the same time. On one contract you have one set of requirements, on another a different set. There is nothing unethical about that. Someone can act unethically in that situation, but the situation isn't unethical. "your" customer may have had that other project in mind and had "your" sub recommended by someone else, and coincidently the sub shows up at their house. Could this be a lie? Yup. Could it be true? Yup. Could it be that part of the reason the customer hired you is for you to find the best tradespeople, so that you are mearly fulfilling your contract in their mind? While most people don't think of it this way, but the homeowner is a "business." Your beliefs on how the other business should operate aren't necessarily theirs. That doesn't make them automatically unethical. If you're hired as a GC-sub on a really large project and you come across a specialist the main-GC subbed, and you like thier work, you of course would never think of using that specialist on a different job you get, after all the main GC found them, so you have no right to use them. Do you have your subs sign a non-compete contract on your jobs? Meaning, that they are legally bound not to work for your customers on other work? If you don't maybe you should, that way your subs can be financially penalized and it is quite clear to them and you can inform your customers, or even add it to your contract with the customer, that they are legally/contractually bound not to use "your" subs on other efforts. Of course, if the customer has a different job with a different GC, then that GC won't be able to use that sub with that customer. Also, any additional work you have with that customer you will always use that same sub, even if you found another who is better, or as good but less expensive (there are reasons this can happen). There are other legal considerations that would have to be satisfied to insure the clauses were inforceable.Please bear in mind I'm talking about other efforts, not changing the current effort. BobL
*Dan-O,misquoting me(and using elipses to take things out of context) makes you as crooked as the next guy. Try directly answering my questions if you are up to it.
*I've been doing a lot of thinking on this subject. Quite frankly it's almost humorous, if it wasn't serious. The way different people view the elephant (the old joke about the blind men describing the animal from their prespective). There are a vast number of different size companies and situations represented on this forum that the assumptions made and never stated make it so volitile(sp) and interesting. My earlier reply was to Sonny because he often talks about people acting as a business, which I agree with. He also talks about what large companies like GM might do. That was why my post was to him.I'm surprised that a certain poster hasn't waded in on this topic, since it is so closely related to many of his posts.I have to assume (love that word) that everyone who doesen't like another "business" using "their" subs, doesn't tell anyone else how good the sub is, after all you learned on your own how good they are. When you found them, you went through the yellow pages or the specialty supply houses asking for suggestions, never saw them on someone else job, or based on another's recommendation. And of course if a friend asks for a recommendation for a tradesman, you say no, that you'll do the job with your labor and markup added.I also have to assume you have your subs supply ALL thier own material, parts, etc so they can make a profit on them, even though you can supply them, thereby lowering the bid you might be making (you do markup averything they supply by 50%-75% right?). After all, the sub has a right to maximize their profit as well, even if it might mean you lose the job.Some suggestions for the folks who don't like "their" subs being used: 1. Make sure your customers fully understand that they are not allowed to talk to anyone on the job except you. (Gets interesting if someone wants to use the bathroom.)2. Don't allow your subs to have their name on their trucks or their shirts. This way no one will know who they are. Maybe you can provide them a truck and shirts with your name on it?3. Don't tell ANYONE who you use or if they are any good. You learned this the hard way so should everyone else.4. Put an anti-compete clause in all your contracts, with your customer, with your subs. Be sure to talk to a laywer (found through the yellow pages or bar association, because you don't want to get a recommendation from someone, that would be hypocritical, you don't want to take advantage of their labor/learning curve) because if not written properly they are not inforceable, and maybe illegal (anti trust or some such thing).5. Don't go on forums and provide information, you learned everthing the hard way, so should they.Now that I've tic'ed a lot of people off. It's all in the presepective, and the situation directly in front of you. What situation A is and what situation B is, while they may look the same, really aren't in the details. And it's in all the details that determeans if something is sleazy, unethical, or crooked. We don't live in a binary world, 1 or 0, yes or no. I hope all the folks who don't like someone using knowledge gained legitemitly, also never do the same in other parts of their lives.
*Caleb, (and other confused wanna be GC's)With Sonny's earlier comments in mind on the relationship aspect, What do I lose?I feel trades people are like professional athletes.The very best, work their tails off. And I expect them to do it for 8 hours. I work hard to not only create a safe place that they can make top $$$, I run interference between them and the owner. So they can do what they are paid top $$$ to do. I pay the best and I expect the best performance of work.What people like you fail to realize is that over 60% of my work is those "little job" you wish steal.A guy like you comes along and waves a wee job that, if the tradesman takes, he has to do on the side. Remember, he's already worked 8 hours. He does the job, drags his tired ass in to my job the next day and there goes consistency. Or, (this has happened several times) he hurts himself doing your job. Not only is your job incomplete, but mine is screwed. When you work for me, I expect you to work hard. That means taking care of yourself. It means eating right, avoiding substance abuse, and getting rest.Getting rest means just that. I pay subs top $$$ so they can go home or out at nit to relax. And to take time off on week-ends (both sat. & sun) so they can spend time with their families, enjoy a hobby, or just lay around so that on Mon, their ready togo at it 100%I loose alot when Part-time GI's start pulling apart my team. I do this full time. I'm amazed when people with full-time jobs think they can do their job and my job and think they can do it just as well. Maybe you can. But at the expense of tradespeople who have to try to keep a real pro's like me happy, and adapt to your schedual which only lasts as long as the job. I've got work through next year.The main thing, or issue, is rejecting the GI's relationship with his/her team. Talk to the GC first. Its the right thing to do.There have been times (rare) when the owner has done just that, and with that knowledge, I can react so the current job suffers no ill effects. The guy goes and does the job with my knowledge and I can schedual around it. And that leads to the final point. Lack of secrets between the sub and me.When you hire a sub from my job, you have created in effect, a conspiracy. You don't tell me and the sub doesn't either. He does the job on the side, and I discover it. I discover the sub can't be trusted and that your a cheap. So sad to see the both of you go.........
*Mark, Good post, thanks for chiming in. Certainly your perspective is earned and will be appreciated by many. All the best in '01, Dan-O
*Dan-OThank you.Another scenerio:So you say you need a roof, call a roofer or call me?Even if you call the roofer I use, there will be a difference.See, like it or not, the roofer will treat your job different because you represent only one job.Chances are, he will never hear from you again. I, on the other hand represent dozens of future jobs and he will put my job above yours. And rightly so.I've earned it.So, the smart money hires me, I call my roofer, tell him you are a good client and to take care of the job. I give him the specs over the phone and he gives me a price. My subs always discounts the price because I've saved him so much time. Plus he knows it's good for business.I mark it up and the price you pay comes out about the same if you had called him direct. After all, he expects to pay himself for resonding to you and selling the job, right? He does the job with the idea that if he scewes up, I'll be on his ass. meanwhile, your enjoying yourself with the confidence that I am on it. Now if there is a problem, you call me, I call the roofer, he drops what he's doing and gets over to you house because he knows I'll be calling him next week for another job.You on the otherhand will always be secondary because your disatisfaction represents a lesser threat to his reputation and future eanings.Apply this to any small job and you will find that by calling me, you will come out on top.That the point, is it not?
*It sounds like you're talking about an employee, not another business with which you have entered a contract. Do you have an exclusive contract with this business? Some of the words you use imply that a tradesman is NOT a company, is not a business. (If you are talking about EMPLOYEES who are tradesman, then a lot of what you say, I would agree with.) and that all subcontractors are single employee companies who are incapable of running a company (you didn't say this, but it is what I read). Some of my comments are about COMPANIES doing business with CUSTOMERS. When a GC subcontracts, the GC is a customer. As a customer you sound like you have exclusive rights to dictate another business's operating procedures. A business (and I don't mean employee) has the ability to enter a contract. Unless you have it in your contract defineing what else that business is allowed to do, you as GC have no authority or right to say what that company can do. And if you do the IRS and other tax authorities may say that those people aren't subcontractors but employees and you have to pay SS, unemployment, etc.i What people like you fail to realize is that over 60% of my work is those "little job" you wish steal. Does this mean you advertise that you replace faucets, light fixtures, etc. and that you can compete with companies (as a GC) that companies, exclusive as say, plumbers and eletricians, can price wise?You also imply that no one is allowed to have more than one source of income. People can't work two jobs, on more than one contract per day, or more than 8hrs a day.It is difficult to tell who you mean by "(and other confused wanna be GC's)" so I reacted becuase my posts were just before yours. Let me paraphrase Sonny a bit. You are a BUSINESSman, that means you should run your operation as a business and let the specialists you contract with run their operations as businesses.The above comments are directed at businesses dealing with businesses, not employees of a company. Or in dealing with changes to an existing contract.When a truck with a company name on it is visible, then that company is saying, "I'm ready to do business." When people walk around with a shirt or jacket on that has a company name on it, then it is saying "I'm ready to do business." i There have been times (rare) when the owner has done just that, and with that knowledge, I can react so the current job suffers no ill effects. The guy goes and does the job with my knowledge and I can schedual around it. And that leads to the final point. Lack of secrets between the sub and me. Your words here imply that I lot of what I said you understand. But it is the perception (could be real) of betrayal that bothers you the most.Would you object to your customers expecting you to check with them everytime you enter a contractual arraingement, just as you as a customer expect the trades to do for you? That you're not off working on someone else's behalf and not theirs? Why do you feel you have the right to a different arangement as a business then other businesses? That you can treat your customers differently than you are treated as a customer? To sum up, just like I have done, you have made a number of unstated assumptions, and presented points for those assumptions. This thread to me has two paths, one dealing with changes to an existing contract, the other, who can ethically enter a contractual agreement based on publicly available information. My comments are aimed at the latter.
*Hey bobl,Thanks for the comments. Sounds like its become a little convoluted and complicated.I was responding to the question, "What would I do?"That's what I've tried to do. And after a number of years, what I've described has worked.After reading the various opinions and situations people have found themselves in, I sure am grateful for what I have in the way of my relationship with my subs and my clients. Thanks again for your input.
*Mark,while I fully support the majority of the points you are trying to make in this thread Ifeel obliged to point out that I feel you are WAY off-base on your story involving the roofer.You seem to imply that the homeowner would always be best served by having roof work done through your oversight(and at your profit) Logically this doesn't make sense for roofing,or any of the other specialty trades like electrical or wallpapering or concrete driveways.You seem to feel that a roofer will treat a project for an individual homeowner as a lower priority than a project for a GC..Actually the reverse is the truth.As a roofing contractor I specialize in dealing directly with the homeowner.This means I provide complete service with ONE contact person.Since my company name is on the line and I am not "sheltered" by a GC, any warranty work will be handled almost instantly----usually within 24 hours and ideally within 3 hours.Since my customer has paid me $230 plus per square they are ALWAYS going to be more important and receive vastly better service than a GC who wants roofers to accept sub work at $30 squareDoing roofing projects directly for the homeowner is my focus,so maybe my perspective is skewed. The idea that I or my peers view a job for an individual homeowner as lower priority because it is a onetime job simply isn't born out in reality.The best specialty contractors don't look at an individual homeowner as a one time job but view them as part of a string of "endless referalls".If I do a roof for an individual chances are at least 50% that I have already done one for his friend,co-worker,neighbor,realitive etc.I also plan on doing plenty more for the individals other friends etc.Each individal job is merely part of a long string of GOOD PAYING work. Lets be honest---who is a higher priority to me?---A $230/sq. customer who will generate endless profitable jobs(which pay instantly upon completion) or a $30/sq GC who will make me wait for my money?When I have my house re-wired,my bathroom wall-papered,a new driveway poured,or a garage built,I use a different specialist for each of those specific projects.I seriously doubt that a GC can match the specialists level of quality or service.All of this is completly different from a large remodel or having a new house built.In that case the GC is invaluable to handle the complete coordination.A homeowner with a small "one-time" job will probably be best served by a contractor who specializes in small "one-time" jobs.good Luck All,Stephen
*Stephen,You have a dynamite attitude and ethic. Wish there were more of you. Your call-back policy is perfect.Good points.Continued Luck.
*Mark---Puuuhleeeeze.Even my mother never said things that nice about me. How are we supposed to develope a good argument here if you are gonna respond like that?There are plenty of specialists out there better than me---PLENTY.Of,course we know that there is also no shortage of slack-jawed droolers in business. Buyer beware.Like Pseudo points out it is also CONTRACTOR beware,because there are plenty of customers who will turn a blind eye to their ethical shortcomings in the attempt to save a few bucks by doing andd "end around" the contractor.The contractor and the subs know what is right,and the Customer knows what is wrong. No matter how much the customers protest to the contrary they know their actions are wrong or they wouldn't have to SNEAK aroundd trying to cut deals on the QT.good Luck All,Stephen
*.. i really get jerked when the customer hires the sub without the courtesy of prior discussion...if they ask, i say sure.. go right ahead...i also make it clear that i have nothing to do with the end result...caleb...some plumbers can replace a tub... some can't..some need or want the assistance of the other trades involved.. or not involved... demo, carpentry, plaster, ceramic tile , flooring and painting...good luck .. if you hire a steven hazlett , finest kind... if you hire one of the roofing subs working for the GC.. don't expect steven hazletts quality...still comes down to : ... if you can't be upfront with the GC.. shame on you....
*Stephen$230 per square if you deal directly with the property owner vs. $30 per square if you don't. What happens to the $200 difference?OthersSome of you talk about 'finding' a plumber or roofer or some other tradesman. As a tradesman myself, I can say that my experience and the experience of many other tradesmen is that we find the jobsite by an informal network of other tradesmen or keeping an eye out for projects under construction. I always notice where groundwork is taking place and keep a mental reference and check on progress at various times. Nobody is 'finding' me. I let my presence be known. I talk with other tradesmen about projects that are under construction. You make it sound like 'finding' a plumber or other tradesman is like finding gold and that it is secretive and that you have a 'claim' on the tradesman.
*mitch.. what you are doing is canvassing for work...we're not talking about that... the GC's talking here use the same subs all the time..i'd never use you or your prices until i knew a lot more about you and your work.. nothing personal...just that you represent an extension of the quality we're delivering to the customer...so, how am i going to vouch for your quality if i don't know you or know that i can count on you....also... if you'll do work for me when times are slack... can i count on you when times are booming ?
*I disagree with those who say that the general contractor is the bread and butter for others and that therefore it is best to avoid jobs in which he is not involved.All construction jobs are created because someone desires to have some work done that he himself, as property owner, is not going to do himself. This means that there are at any given time a finite number of opportunities for carpenters, plumbers, etc. to be involved on a project. Using that logic, it is irrelevant whether they are hired by the owner or a hired contractor. The contractor cannot create jobs on someone else's property.The unique aspect of construction lies in the fact that it is site specific. It is done on a specific parcel of land belonging to a specific owner. In order for any work to commence, there must be a demand for the work. If all property owners decided to employ the workmen themselves and not employ contractors to do so on their behalf, then it must be true that contractors, except when the owner is the contractor, do not create work for others and are therefore not bread and butter for others. When the economy is good and people are willing to spend on construction, it is the property owners who are the bread and butter for those who work in the industry.
*Sneaking deals on the side with subs and employees is just that.Not an honorable trait in my book. Tell me this...Do you feel good doing it? Would you like it done to you?near the stream,ajDon't expect to be respected by me.
*Mitch,---I think you are just yanking my chain ain't ya? I assume most of us know that the GC, paying $30 sq. is trying to snow me with a "labor only" deal----that is the GC claims to supply all materials and for $30 /sq. I handle installation only on a clean new deck of an unoccupied--unfinished house. My figure of $230 plus /sq. covers tearing 2-3 layers off an existing,finished,inhabited HOME full of all the customers worldly goods.I supply ALL materials,permits,insurance, workers comp.,labor,dumping, etc. to produce the new roof.I also pay for all the advertising and marketing needed to generate that kind of work and the $230/sq. also buys the kind of warranty service I have already outlined.That $200 just disappeared kinda fast huh? $30/sq. doesn't buy a lot of service and it gaurantees that a lot less attention will be spent on detail work and the focus instead is on speed.I have way,way,WAY more liability for $230/sq. than the $30/sq.,but I also have a lot more room to profit if I handle the WHOLE situation the right way.To be fair,the $30/sq. guy is not really in the same trade I am.I won't do what he does at his price---and he isn't insured or equiped to do what I do.The problem for the homeowner developes when he focuses on the$$$$$$ diferences between $30/sq. and $230plus/sq.Instead of thinking"where is Stephen spending that $200 "the customer should be thinking"what's missing from that $30 price".By the way,I don't mind pointing out again that their are plenty of guys doing things pretty much the way I do.If you get burned by the $30" side-job -johnnie" it is your own fault.It's not the price---it's whats included in the price that counts.Good Luck All,Stephen
*Stephen H.The "sneaking" is what we are talking about. It has everything to do with money.... cutting out a "middleman". What I've said is if the owner says he wants to use a sub on his own, without my involvement, all I can do is point out my earlier comments about how I've been able to provide superior service for about the same amount of money.That's been my experience.With your ethic and call back policy, you make my argument moot. I was politly saying that by your implementing a few simple, but highly ethical policies for your business, you have rendered my services redundant. Wanna argue 'bout somethin' else? Thanks
*MarkIn post #22 you posed the question "am I a dating service" and in post #44 you referred to cutting out the middleman. Webster's dictionary defines a middleman as an intermediary or go-between which terms are then defined as an agency to bring two parties together.I have nothing against any legitimate contractor or his right to engage in a lawful occupation. I do though have a problem with those who call themselves contractors and are not really acting in that capacity.As a middleman, there are third parties to his contract and those third parties should be allowed to see the details of the contract which they are third parties to. Otherwise they do not know if it is a legitimate contract. The following is a common occurrence. A person calling himself a "contractor" makes a deal with the property owner that in return for X amount of dollars he will pay all labor and material bills. The contract says nothing of how these bills will be determined. There is no duty imposed on those who furnish the labor and materials to do anything other than submit bills for payment. The "contractor" decides that he will lose money if he pays out more than the amount he takes in and therefore refuses to do what he must do by his contract. He thus burns both the owner and the labor and material suppliers.
*mitch... what are you talking about ?fraud ?non-performance ?what..?what is your point ? some GC's are not legitimate so it's ok to act unethically with all GC's ?if GC's don't perform, they don't get hired...
*Mitch- wrong use of a word, sorry.
*I'm going to keep my opinion short. When a customer hires a GCs subs or employees on the sly to do extra work the customer is cutting costs and rarely applies for a new permit to have that work done. Code officers get a bit pissed off at that. I say if the customer wants to save a few bucks by hiring on the sly and doesn't cough up the cash to have a new permit issued they deserve to be turned in to the local building department. The sub or employee knows the rules. If they get caught in the middle and have their license to work pulled in that municipality it's THEIR problem.
*I was recently in the local library and asked if the new issue of Fine Homebuilding had arrived. The librarian asked me if I was involved in the construction industry as she was looking to hire a plumber, a carpenter, a painter and some other tradesmen to do some work. When I asked her if she had contractor licenses for all those trades she seemed shocked. She asked why she would need them. I told her I would be right back and I proceeded to grab the library's volume of statute law regarding contractor licensing. When I showed her that she was required, as the property owner, to have the licenses unless she fit an exemption category, she seemed shocked. Fortunately for her, one of the exemptions was for homeowners who live in their own home. I told her that if it were not for the exemption, I could not contract with her because of her lack of license. I had to explain to her that it is not the person who is hired to do the work in our state that needs the license. It is the person who does the hiring. I told her to imagine what it would be like if she needed a license to engage the services of an attorney and another license to engage the services of a doctor and another one to engage the services of an auto mechanic.I had to explain to her that the theory of the law was that on commercial projects or property for sale or rent, there is an interest of society as a whole to have the work done properly. Instead of the legislature requiring the men who do the work to be licensed, they required the work be done under the supervision of the individual who qualified for the license in that particular trade. I then told her that if she thought that was strange, if the legislature had required the men who do the work to be licensed, then the supervisor would be barred from doing the actual work on the grounds that he is only competent to supervise the work, not competent to perform it. You can't have it both ways. If you are not competent to perform work pursuant to a license law, you may be judged competent to supervise it pursuant to a contractor license law. Go figure.
*hey mitch.... or robert.. or whatever you're calling yourself these days...you still don't make much sense.. why do you hide your identity?what was your point in the little discourse with the librarian ?
*Mike SmithThe post was a response to Michael Eckert's post in which he talks about everyone knowing the rules. The rules are elaborated in the law. Is that so hard to comprehend? And who is Robert?
*Mitch,You're way off. The simple point is that a building permit issued to perform a job dictates what work may be done under that permit. Period. Want to add another bathroom 1 month later? A new permit is required for the bathroom. The contractors who worked on the original job know that the prior permit is not valid for the new work. If you want to blather on about law, go ahead. But call any code enforcement officer and ask them if it's okay to do new work under an old permit. Bet they say 'Like Hell'.
*Very interesting responses.I think we could all agree that the bottoom line is that because this client is sneaking around behind my back that they don't have a reasonable defense for their actions.The permit thing is interesting. Since they were handling one or two subtrades themselves, I asked them to fill in the amount for the permit. They listed only my contract price. The additional work performed amounts to high five or low six figure, which would result in a substantial increase in permit fees. Clearly another dishonest act.
*WEW!I couldn't stop. I was ready to respond only after reading four reponces. What a thread! More like a rope.The issue is clear, the clients are scum. Complete the work as agreed and no more, no referrals etc...Damn rights I would be pissed and rightfully so.Call me in to work your project, with the intent (yes I'm assuming) to simply contact all those involved to finish up."Say Mr. G C, now that you have completed the bulk as well as the complex portion of the project, we have decided to cut you out of the equation. Thanks to you and the impeccable tradesmen you have brought through our threshold, we will take it from here. Here is the name of our friends, we've told them you can provide the foundation and the shell, which should give them enough time get acquainted as we have with your crew. Of course you will have a new staff because your current staff will not be done with our tasks. Have a nice day!Sure, it's an open market. There are no restrictions. Yes do what it is we have done in the early going to get off the ground, that is to generate a reliable network of tradesmen to assist from project to project. This is no easy task, takes years.Ask my employees to complete my work??????????Screw you!!!!!Go ahead fellas, do as I did, knock out a fence on the weekend, remodel your Mom's bathroom, but just as I did, I never gave less than 100% Monday through Friday and if the boss asked for my Saturday, of course.Like Hell if I would be so stupid as to agree to install the cabinets or trim out the house my boss put up in the air.Professional code. Sorry folks, this job belongs to the General over there, you will have to approach him if your request crosses his path, otherwise if I can assist let me know afterwards.Nothing wrong with that. Yeah, I walk onto other projects if I see other tradesmen at work whom I may wish to investigate, first thing I do is walk over to the general and introduce myself, don't necessasirly ask for permission, but I do let him know my intentions. Next if I ask the sub to work for me it would not be at the expense of the GC I met him through. As a general contractor I have my interest to protect. I do not plan to create a reputation as the guy who can get you through the rough stuff only to feed you with all the necessary contacts, including my employees to finish.Just one man's opinion.
*Mark McDonnell,I believe you and I see quite "eye to eye" on most all of this thread,particularly the sneaking around.I don't see much possibility for an arguement on this topic----But I am willing to argue about politics,religon,and most definitely BASEBALL.Opening day can't get here soon enough,Stephen
*too bad about those indians , steven..... i think this is gonna be a red sox year...if Sports Illustrated don't give 'em the kiss-a-death again...
*Steven.....and others...With this crew, best keep it to baseball.Thanks again
*All of the companies I have worked for (including my current job) have made it clear up front to everyone - employees, subs, etc - that doing business with past or current clients is cause for immediate dismissal. As an employee, I feel this is an ethical matter. The business owner spends a great deal of time and money developing his clients, and for someone in his employ to agree to do work for the client behind his back is, to mind, equivalent to stealing.In the computer world, there is a large amount of litigation over what is called ' intellectual properties'. I think this is much the same here.The subs we hire are provided with a large amount of their income from working for us. We feel it is a fair trade to them to keep giving them large amounts of business in return for them refusing these other one-time small jobs.Ken
*I have been watching this thread for awhile now and think that a couple themes have developed. First of all there seems to be a bit of confusion over the difference between an Employee and a Sub-Contractor. It is really important to know which is which come tax time, liability claim time and for other routine business issues.If the GC determines for a "sub" when they work, who they work for, the work location, etc there becomes a real question of whether they are an employee or a sub. There is a big difference in relationship with the GC between being an sub and being an employee.It isn't a matter of ethics; it is a matter of legal realtionship. Being in business with someone isn't a love fest; it is a business relationship for mutual benefit. Your customer isn't a captive cash cow. The customer is just that, a customer for the contracted job and that job only. Any future jobs are governed by future agreements. The customer is free to deal with any party, including people who might have been sub-contractors on a previous job.The point has been made that it is in effect unethical and maybe even downright thievery for a sub to work additional jobs outside the contract with the GC. Well that is the essence of being a Sub-Contractor. The sub is an Independant Business who can work when and where he chooses. The sub is only restricted by the terms of the contract. To use threats of not doing business with the sub again unless they do something beyond the terms of the contract is not only unethical, it may be illegal and subject the GC to significant liability.So, while a GC might like to nurture the greed instinct by locking up a customer and the subs he can't if in fact they are subs. If a GC wants this kind of control they need to be brought into the fold and recognized as employees, because that is in fact what they are. If a GC uses coercion to restrict a subs ability to work independently come injury, or product liability, or unemployment time the GC has opened the door to serious liability, as has been mentioned in at least one post.So, grow up and grow out. Either make a worker an employee, or let them be independent as a Sub. Don't be so greedy and unethical that you want the best of both worlds without the responsibilities of either.
*I agree with Fred B. Grow up! Some of you think like children who don't know how to play nice! Every situation is different but if you don't earn a customer's loyalty by rendering a service that the customer feels he is in ongoing need of don't sulk, just move on! Most people like to save money. At last check we contractors like to save money too. Ever think that some of the things contractors do might not seem ethical to a homeowner? Make a living and enjoy doing so, but don't be so greedy!
*This has been a very interesting thread, as I am in the middle of the situation described. I used to sub (exclusively) to a GC, running remodeling jobs for him. After a couple of years of that, I decided to get back into woodworking and we parted amicably. One of his clients, who I had met while working for him (but had done no work for), called me to build them some cabinetry. I called the CG, without hesitation, and did the whole deal through him. A year later, they said they had more work for me, but could we not go through the GC...I felt uneasy, so called and asked the GC what he thought...he wasn't happy, but said "fine" in that tone of voice that meant it wasn't really fine, but I decided to go ahead with it. The clients rationalized by saying they use the GC when they have bigger jobs, or need to coordinate subs, but since all they wanted was woodworking done they didn't see why they should involve the GC. And it had been quite a while since I had worked for the GC, anyway. The problem is: now, they want to run a new cable line for their computer, which means cutting an outlet into one of my cabinets, so they called the only electrician they knew (I don't have any regular subs myself), who works mostly for the same GC. Now I need to coordinate with him to do this little job, but feel like crap because it's getting unethical. I should have just gone with my gut and said I could only work for them through the GC. If nothing else, he is potential source of more work then the clients are, so if he's pissed off, no more work from him...on the other hand, I hadn't gotten much from him since I started my own business anyway. I don't know. Tricky situation.MM
*Tricky situation???Never let anything get in the way of the success of your own, independent business. Looks to me like you are developing some leads and some income to help you be independent. Independence and income is why you are a sub instead of an employee isn't it?So, unless there is some contract that says you can't do this what is the hold up? Do the job with the electrician. Unless there is a contract with the GC where the GC is paying you there is no claim on you to talk to him at all.Now, if the GC can somehow convince you to voluntarily not do business independently that is good on the GC and dumb on you. In other words, look out for developing your own business and let the GC look out for developing his. Do quality work for anyone who hires you and regardless of what else you do you will always have GC's standing in line for you. Who knows, at some point you may even be big enough to be a GC too.
*Mike-Did the GC give you a sales commission on your first independent job with these folks? Finder's fee?A GC makes money because he provides a needed service. It may be just his contacts but usually it is in coordinating the various trades and mostly in taking responsibility for the entire project and standing behind all the work.When he is doing a good job of this, it is obvious to everyone that he is well worth his fee. When he is seen as just taking a cut out of the pie and not providing anything else, the customer and the subs are going to cut him out and all the complaints about unethical behavior are going to just be so much noise.In the original post the customer was recruiting subs and employees on the actual job for additional work. In your case the time lapse has been years. This is why the GC gave his ok. He'll use you in the future if he likes to work with you and calling him up to get his ok will only help you.
*Thanks guys, I guess my situation isn't nearly as bad as the original poster's. There were no binding contracts, just the knowledge that they were "his" clients. I'm going ahead with the work, so we'll see if the contractor calls me for any more woodworking...MM
*Geez what a thread! I'm a GC and if a client has a small project that just involves one trade, say replacing a toilet, I don't care if the client doesn't involve me. I'd be too busy to deal with it anyway and I know my client is in good hands using one of my trusted subs. My clients always remember who brought the subs to their lives and they'll still call me for a bigger project anyway. My subs tell me when they are doing projects for my old clients and if a job requires any other trades or coordination or permits, they tell me and I contract with the clients as before. As the sub, the important thing is to keep communication open with the GC they are your steady supplier's of work and the level of comfort for the GC is what determines if you will do for the client.
*Hey B Novick:This is finehomebuilding here,1/8" off on a two foot run is enough to shed water!But still if the guy had to check with the chiefhe sounds like a wuss.Noel G.
*Unless there is an ethical standard in the professions "Code of ethics" I can't see that this issue is a problem. If I were a GC and I had a GC friend that had good subs should I have to contract with the GC to use his subs? NO! If a person is willing to contact each sub for a job then fine, they are not going behind your back, they are acting like a GC themselves. If you completed your end of the contract in a satisfactory manner they will likely give your name to friends that need a GC, but they are willing to take your responsiblilities (headaches included) and save some money, they have every right in the world. You contracted for 1 job and unless you gave them a "discount deal" trying to swing future business your way, you should quit crying, if you did give them such a deal you should have had an agreement stating such.
*IF your subs go behind your back, they are violating a futiary responsibility they have to you. A contractual clause helps with this.IF your customer is going behind you back to your subs, and you have good reputable subs, you need not worry because they will not allow this by not forwarding their informations toi your customer. Their is really nothing you can do for this because you custoemr is simply trying to discount by extracting the middle-man (YOU) out of the picture. Its standard business practices to try and get least expensive jobs done without sacrificing quality in the process.Good Luck,Paul O'DellLancaster Fine Flooringwww.LancasterFloors.com
*Paul:In your post you said: "IF your subs go behind your back, they are violating a futiary responsibility they have to you. A contractual clause helps with this."Assuming that you meant that the Sub had a fiduciary responsibility to the GC; nothing could be further from the truth. The Sub owes the GC exactly what is in the contract. That is to do the work called for on time, on quality and on budget. Your comment: "A contractual clause helps with this." is a bit off too. The contractual clause does more than help with the relationship, it defines it. Check with your local attorney. Bet he tells you the same thing I am saying. If the GC wants the Sub to not do future work for certain customers the GC has to pay for that. That is unless the Sub is too dumb, or too hungry to properly run his busines.If a person is an Employee one set of rules apply. If a person is a Sub a different set of rules apply. To be ethical both the GC and the Sub must apply the correct set of rules. To do otherwise is not only unethical and illegal, it brings with it liabilities that can hurt both of them.
*
I am a few days away from finishing a high end remodel. The client is going around to my subs and employees asking for names and numbers so that they can come and do more work immediately after I finish.
The good news is they are happy with my team and by all accounts me also. All the parties who were solicited have come to me and told me of this. Some of the work was discussed with the client and declined based on cost.
I am hurt and angry, as my ultimate goal is a satisfied customer, who will become part of my referall network. This behaviour would indicate to me that this will not be the case.
I am certain that the goal is to save my fees. How do I protect this facet of my business.