Hey guys,
Business is terrible for us. We’re working a few small jobs but had to bid them low to just get them and having to do 90% of the work myself. I don’t mind that at all but when you work 12 hours on one job, you have no time to get to the next ones. And they aren’t high enough money makers to hire someone.
So…when do you decide your business just isn’t working and call it quits?
We are suffering from the crunch here in Florida. Folks can say there is no slowdown but its here. When big homebuilders slow down, all those guys out of a job fall into our niche and competiton is fierce. And bottom line is price in our area trumps quality or integrity as most folks around here only seem to stay in their house a few years. No one cares if those guys are unlicensed, they just want the job done cheaply.
We’re just having it really tough and I’m wondering how long to stick it out or hang it up and go look for a job. Spent a ton of bucks on advertising, promotions, you name it but just not getting things to happen.
Not sure how patient to be or what to do next as of course the personal bills arrive each month even if the business checks don’t!
Anyone have any good words of wisdom that can help me feel better about where I’m at?
Replies
When you get a better offer you can live with.
I was listening to some radio talk show last week, and they made a vague refernce to the naples area really being in the dumpster. Some real estate lady was calling in and talking about other realtors who had bought a couple of spec houses and now were having a real financial crisis. They never explained the story, assuming everyone in the world knew what was happening. So what's the story down there?
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
It's a complex story.There were a lot of flippers speculating on that overblown market that got caught in a pinch with adjustable rates when interest went up.And after the hurricanes, a lot of insurance rates went sky high or policies got cancelled so people deciedded to unload properties which took a lot of bottom out.Other people on the coasts just got emotionally tired of storms every year or so.Then the labour pool is somewhat diluted by the immigrant workforce.
One relative of mine was working as a house cleaning gal in a copmpany. She was getting $10/hr with benies and watched new hires getting $7/hr, mostly immigrants, while her hours were gettting cut. Seeing handwriting on the wall, she started her own business, and charges $30/hr and is delighted. Her customers can't get enough of her. She adapted and prospered.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
problem with naples is, the average price of a house is a million dollars but a fireman, cop or teacher, the waiters in resturant have to live 50 miles away because there no cheap housing, and the city wont let them build affordable housing
Don't have any intelligent thoughts to add. Just wanted to say I hope it works out for ya.
Tough one Mike.
I suspect from your post that you own you own business. Yes?
Do you love the business?
What have you been doing?
What market has your sdvertising targeted?
Of course, you know and as I have experienced in the past, that one phone call could change everything.
Keep you chin up. Be the head and not the tail.
I can remember times when we had two weeks of work ahead and nothing in sight beyond that. Something always came along though we took any work and had few or no employees.
I just got a statement from Social Security which detailed my lifetime earnings. Our first seven years in business I earned less than $15,000 per year. Those were slow times in our area.
The question you have to ask yourself is whether you want to be one of those builders who survive the slowdown. The best will survive and use this time to position themselves to prosper when things pick up. There is no one strategy for doing this but you can always build your reputation in a positive way even if you aren't making much money.
Oak River Mike
Explain to me why you got into the business in the first place, If it was just because you could make some money then that's your answer.. go where yopu can make money..
The recovering isn't going to happen overnight.. First, all the spec houses need to be sold and then there will need to be a demand for your services..
That will only happen when people feel a real need to invest in their houses over other priorities..
People feel a need to invest in housing when the house no longer fits their needs.. either they want to fix it up to sell it (fix it cheap mentality) or fix it up to make it more impressive to others.. (chance to make a decent living)
Things work in cycles.. this is a down cycle and we've had a build cycle now for almost a decade and a half..
Some are surviving and even doing well while others are really struggling.. Those who survive the next few years will be in an excellant position to do well in the next growth period but too many will hang on too long and be burned..
I don't think you have to hang it up. Maybe you have to lay yourself off for a while and go get a job to make some dough and keep yourself occupied. There is a lot to be said for letting someone else be the boss and owner. Maybe there's someone out there who needs another able body on their crew for a few months. Maybe some big box installs would fill time and space. Or maybe find work outside of the industry entirely for a period, until you see the right moment to pick it back up.
It's hard to close a small business. As soon as you try someone will come along with a job you want to do. I would avoid bidding low to stay busy, it just kills your spirit.
You might need to be willing to travel a bit. You are the first I have heard from FL in this predicament. Every one I know down there is having trouble finding enough help or finding a contractor who will show up to work on their home.
I know the new const has slowed, but home improvement and remo is not. Be ready and willing to adapt.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Isn't yer pal Sonny from Naples?
"As I was walkin' - I saw a sign thereAnd that sign said - no tress passin'But on the other side .... it didn't say nothin!Now that side was made for you and me!" Woody Guthrie 1956
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Yeah! I bet Son Tom could use some help!Remodeling contractor who once visited the Glass City.
but I'm guessin' its not Sonny's he wants...lol.
"As I was walkin' - I saw a sign thereAnd that sign said - no tress passin'But on the other side .... it didn't say nothin!Now that side was made for you and me!" Woody Guthrie 1956
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Yeah, And two neighbors from here winter in Naples and Ft Myers. FIL is north of Tampa, Mother is in Ocala, friends in the panhandle, coiusing in Jacksonviolle, Aunt and uncle north of Orlando, Lot of clients from here in Juniper....you didn't want the whole census tho so I'll stop.;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
yeh well my entire families down there...mother in Tampa sister in Clearwater...other sister in Orlando and I hate Florida...lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFexyK8J1Iw
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Mike, if your in the Tampa area, email me. I know a large reputable contractor that may need some subs. You can even use my name if you like. I did some work for him through FEMA on hurricane Wilma. He even had me on standby for last year briefly when they thought another was going to hit.
[email protected]
this is my personal email. Hope everything works out for you.
This is what I do.
1. I don't advertise. The closest thing to advertising I do is my business cards and my name on the side of my truck. Dave's Home Repair
2. Choose building supply stores in areas that are "well to do". Start shopping there, even if the prices are higher or it is out of your way. Get to know the staff. Bring in coffee for the guys at the lumber counter. (leave them some of your cards)
3. When ever you are out and about, make sure you are clean shaven, your hair is cut and where cloths that are becoming of a successful contractor. I notice alot of guys look like they have been dragged behind their truck. (female clients are more trusting when you look good)
4. Keep your truck washed and shiny at all times. (advice from an old contractor, he also said stay out of nudy bars, gives a bad image)
5. Take your time picking up materials, no matter how much of a rush you are in. Listen to the conversations around you. I pick up more jobs that way.
6. Be chatty and friendly, and charming. (even if it's not your way)
7. Don't compete for jobs. Just quote them. If your price is higher, it's higher. Remind the customer that they get what they pay for. Just make sure your work reflects the money your asking.
8. Clean, clean, clean! No matter how good you are, if you left a mess behind, that is the only thing that will be remembered.
9. Cooperation not competition. Align yourself with other contractors that have a different skill base than you own. Then refer each other. Work for each other. It's a win/win situation.
10. I love it when GM or Ford lays off people. Becuase I know that I will have to go fix what they screwed up later. It's job security for me.
11. Make friends with paving companies. Do you know how many fences, decks, concrete sidewalks, roofing, siding jobs I picked up from that.
12. Make friends with large builders. Grab up the fences and decks when the houses are finished. Do their call backs after the home owners have moved in. Pick up the basement finishing. In my area the custom home builders don't finish the basements. It's viewed as a pain in the ####. If the builder quotes on doing the basement, it is usually some rediculous price. Very easy to undercut.
13. Be careful if you specialize. Be willing to do anything. Be known for being able to do anything. It will keep you going when things are slow.
Remember, the worst possible thing you can do is compete for work. Create your own market called "quality". Word will get around. People like to talk. If you do the things as outlined above, they will talk about you. 85% of my business is referal from lumber yards and other contractors. The other 15% are from nieghbors of the people I work for. Advertising is a waste of money. If you must advertise. Put a sign out front of were you're working.
...and lastly, remember, all situations have a shelf life. This too will pass.
I hope that long winded response is of some help to you
Dave
Dave, your attitude will propel you in the repair business.
You firm approach to quality gives me a marketing idea idea. I hate to sidetrack Mikes thread. Maybe I'll start a new one.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
Now I am intrigued. What is your idea?
Dave
I already posted the idea as a separate thread. It's a bad idea according to the consensus. The fact that no one likes it makes it more appealing to me though, LOL!
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
Dude that was awesome.
Why thank you! What part?
Dave
Hi Doctor Dave,my Name is Peter and I have a small fitted kitchen co in Dublin Ireland Ive just found this site and have read your reply to Mike I just want to say your advice to him is excellent I hope I can print it off, and he should too put it up where he can see it each morning and if he follows it.
His problems will be overWell done[email protected]
Hello Peter,
Welcome. What a great county you live in! I've been there a few times and can't wait to return!
Yes, Dave's infor was good and I like the idea of having it as a copy to be seen. Good thinking!
Mike
Wanted to chime in on the hijack section regarding "building and subcontracting" I can of course support the hijack as it is MY post! ;)
Anyway, my two cents about it all is that on many of the jobs we get, I would love to subcontract out everything but if we did, the cost would be too high and we wouldn't get the job! I know what some are going to say and that we are not making enough money on them (which is true) but how else do you do it?
Example: We have a small job coming up for around $20k. If we subbed it all out it would have been around $28k and we wouldn't have gotten it hence why I will be swinging a hammer on-site for a few days...So what is the right answer? I don't know...
mike.. it sounds like your pricing is way out of wack
usually subs are more efficient in terms of unit cost of production
so... if the subs were telling you it was going to cost $28K to use them . but you sold the job for $20K.. that doesn't seem right..
what it tells me is you should have sold the job for $37K
now, this is a very rough and simplistic example.... but you do know what i'm getting at , right ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
Oh I know exactly what you are talking about as we discussed it before. But if I go that high, those are the jobs we've been losing. And I know we can't get them all but we have been losing ALOT latey because our price was too high.
I know its not great thinking but I figure I would rather go out and swing a hammer on my own and get the job making just a little money than not getting it at all if I went 100% with subs.
I know its not great business sense but we NEED some of these jobs.
Mike
I’ve been trying to thing of something ells you could find useful. Here’s what I’ve been able to come up with so far: Be Flexible.<!----><!----><!---->
<!----><!---->
1. Remodeling<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
My understanding is that the most money is in remodeling. Are you looking for work in this regard? I know someone posted that remodeling might be the busiest business where you live. Don’t forget about repairs and home improvements like add-ons as well.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
2. Sub-Contracting<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
I believe I read you posted that you could not compete with other subs charging 25$ per door. Are we talking interior doors, either a simple pre-hung, or a simple slab not including the separate installation of a jamb or lockset? Under these circumstances you should be able set each one in 15 minutes. That’s $100 per hour. If you can’t compete with that, I think you should. Yeah, I know that sounds tough, but these are tough times, so toughen up! ;) Be willing to do everything, but specialize in one thing that there’s a market for. Improve organization in that area until you can compete with any sub.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
3. Commercial<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
If residential construction is slow, what about commercial? It pays better anyway. If you’re afraid of getting in over your head, contract small jobs, perhaps a suspended ceiling in a Taco Bell, or sub a couple doors on a remodeling job for a GC.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
4. Insurance Work<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
I have a friend in the insurance business that temporarily moved to <!----><!----><!---->Florida<!----><!----> for work. Although he just moved back recently, he still travels to <!----><!---->Florida<!----><!----> occasionally for the same reason. While it might not pay very well, is it at least something that could keep you busy?<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
5. Arsenal<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
What’s in your contracting arsenal? Can you avail yourself to business in the following areas: Concrete, either formwork or finishing, or both; framing, wood or metal, or both; finish, such as trim, doors, and cabinets; interior systems, such as suspended ceilings and drywall, hanging or finishing, or both; flooring and tile, vinyl, ceramic, or both; roofing and siding; decks and ramps; painting?<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
6. Specialty Work<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
By “specialty work,†I don’t mean specializing in something as sub-contractor, but rather finding a market for something in your area that requires a specialist, something the other contractors don’t do. A couple issues ago Mike Guertin did some stuff with wood shingles that looked pretty unique. Maybe you could pick up something like that.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
7. Business Cards<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Do your customers understand most of what’s in your arsenal from what they see on your business card? Are you licensed, bonded, and insured? Then, by all means, advertise these things on your business card! Once you start specializing in a particular area as a sub, it might be helpful to have a separate business card for general contractors.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Finally, regarding diversifying your income, maybe you could also start a lawn-care business. Overhead is low, and you probably already have a trailer.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Hope this helps.-T
Journeyman,
Good ideas...Thanks
And interestingly, we are trying to do ANY and ALL of what you mentioned. (Aside from the lawn care business yet) My license is good for both residential and commercial and we don't turn any work down. We do lose some as we're not cheap enough. for some folks..
Just getting the phone to ring seems to be the difficult part...
Mike
That's exactly what I was thinking.
bet the sub's know the real cost even better!
I sub some stuff ... do most myself.
But that's just to keep the money in my pocket.
and I usually pay myself more than I'd expect to pay a sub.
If I have something else to do, or somewher else to go ...
it's subbed out and I make money in two places, or wrap that job up quicker.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I agree Mike.
I think most youngun's, including myself when I was young(er), don't know that if they aren't going to get a markup, in some way for handling it, then there's no point in handling it. If it's a wash, don't handle it...leave it for the subcontractors to sell it themselves.
Sometimes you gotta find better subcontractors...the kind that leave money on the table.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
excellent point... some of my commie subs don't get it ( i still use 'em)
they always whine about GC's marking up their bids..
but really without a markup there are only 2 possible outcomes.. either you break even.. ( when did that ever happen ? )
or.... you lose money ... having to devote time to running interference between the Owner & the sub.. or you incur a liability to fix something the sub won't fix.... or you have to devote time to sequncing the sub into the mix... there is no free lunch
managing subs... or handling materials.. without a markup can only lead to perdition
( oh, man... i've been dying to use that word )Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
managing subs... or handling materials.. without a markup can only lead to perdition
Would you care to embelish that last statement Mike?
Just thought I'd let you know that I'm paying attention![email protected]
WHICH content will be free, of course; WHICH content will require registration; but WHICH content will be available only to members of FineHomebuilding.com.???
Perdition: loss of the soul. Eternal Damnation.
He already embillished that statement. Don't handle sub work for free!
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
how much did you earn for clarifying that ? ;-)
Ill ave you know Ive stayed out of this . <G>
Tim
Guys,
Thanks for the impressive responses. I won't bore everyone with details to every post but in a nutshell, here is our situation.
We are open to doing ANY kind of work so we really don't say No to any call. We just have had a run of losing jobs due to price and then the ones we have gotten have been very small.
I don't mind waiting it out. I was self-employed years ago before going to work for the local builidng department and muddled through the same ups and downs. Now it just seems a bit worse as then I was willing and able to do small home repair jobs but now there are too many handymen in our area (many retirees) to compete being that some will do that kind of stuff for a song. Like hanging a door for $25. I can't compete with that.
So yeah, I guess I just have to wait it out. I had thought about going back to the building department temporarily but then by Floirda law, you have to inactivate your license and that means the business would be closed. Urgh. I love living in Florida but it has gotten to be a bit too overregulated..
So thanks for the well-wishes and I guess I have to just keep plugging along. The wife is thrilled to be the sole bread-winner right now...
Mike
Your situation of losing jobs is close to mine. I had GC's not pay at all. Nothing wrong with my work they just had excuses of financial problems.
One is still $20,000 in the hole. Another at $11,000. To say the least I could not afford that. I almost went down with the GC's.
I started calling my contacts in the field, until I had loaded back up on work. I didn't turn anything down. And after 6 mos of hell, 8 days a week I now have my head back above water.
Exhaust your resources, hit the phone and load up if at all possible. I laid my guys off, did the work by myself. This helped slow the bleeding.
And now that I have been to the threshold of losing it all, I am buried again. It's time to find help. I actually am trying to get Blue down here to help frame a house with me. Not sure if he'll do it or not.
I am ashamed to admit this but I left town to build an addition last year for fast money. When I got back my power and gas had been shut off for 4 days. My house stunk. My wife left too. And I was pissed that I had let this go too long. I am a stubborn MF'er I will not fail.
Look hard at your situation from the outside. What do you see? Can you make this work? Are you willing to throw away your liscense? I wasn't, see if you can't ride it out man. Sh!t gets better you have to be the one who makes it that way. When people don't know what you're about, They put you down and shut you out.
I am a stubborn MF'er I will not fail.
Love the determination, i've said something very similar myself.
Admitedly I do have an ace-in-the-hole (sugar momma's a RN) but she has never had to pay any bills around here. I've been waaaaay slow these past two weeks but i'm supposed to close on another project house this week so I will be busy again soon, but I cant stand not working.
I'm a young dumbie, so take this with a grain of salt.
This is the perfect example of why everyone should diversify their income. When business is good, invest in your business AND other assets. When business is slow, lean on your other assets to pay the bills.
The economy is not the only thing that can really choke a small construction business. Most of us are only one broken leg, or disability, away from being out of business.
I wish I had a reason;
my flaws are open season
Dustin,
Not a "young dumbie"...EXCELLENT reply! My problem is our business has never been that great to have any extra money to diversify. The plan is to buybuild some homes or duplexes or a commercial property to have as rental property but haven't made it that far yet.
BUT...I do agree, many of us are just one injury away from failure...hence my desire to get big enough to be beyond that point.
Mike
I sent you an email with the info Mike.
The plan is to buybuild some homes or duplexes or a commercial property to have as rental
Okay, you know your construction services isn't in your future. You have an alternative plan.
What is your plan exactly? Is it written? Is it detailed? Is it viable? What small steps are you taking, every day to execute that plan? What things are you doing to educate yourself in matters relating to that plan? How much time are you devoting to that plan?
If the answers are "cant say", "no", "no", "I don't know", "none", "reading here", "five minutes a month", your results will be predictable.
So, how about us analyzing your "plan"? I think the exercise might be fun.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
That's some sage advice there Dustin. You're a better man than I am. Things are slow right now for me and I can feel the panic setting in. I tend to over-react about slow times and picture myself eating out of trash cans in a month though. Truth is, March is always my hardest time of the year for some reason. Talking to other guys in my area, I've actually been lucky in that a lot of them ran out of work over a month ago where it's just starting to hit for me.
I'm hoping this is just the usual season slow-down again. January new home sales in MA were up 11-12% so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it will pick up again once the ground thaws enough to dig.
Either way.... it's time I really start thinking about your advice there as my eggs truly are all in one basket. I do have a guy who could run the field end of the business for me should I get injured..... but I do need some insurance other than a padded bank account for the inevitable slow downs.
Open to suggestions BTW.View Image
I'm hoping this is just the usual season slow-down again. January new home sales in MA were up 11-12% so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it will pick up again once the ground thaws enough to dig.
To hear it told, or more appropriatly to read it, you would think the sky is falling in M.A.
And yet just like you, my cousin who lives there is optomistic as hell about spring and says he has no reason to believe otherwise.
Makes ya wonder just how much all the experts on the economy really know.
normally, during economic slowdowns, the renovation/repair
side of the business holds steady or grows.
my business has never been better.
i do not advertise, no truck signage, unlisted phone #.
i only work by referral but 80% of my work is repeat customers.
several of whom have me traveling to work on vacation property.
all this is to say, if you stay in one area (me 35 years here)
and really work on your relationships
with your customers (the families you help take care of) you will prosper.
Good advice Foobytor.
Relationships are what it's all about. The young guys, as well as the old ones should start cultivating them and protecting them for all it's worth.
The question now is: who do we develop these relationships with? I'd suggest spending a considerable amount of time and energy with wealthy, powerful and important people....as much as possible, without neglecting the smaller guys....like clean up laborers and carpenters and shinglers....
Relationships will carry you throgh the bad times.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
you can meet more top tier clients than you will
ever be able to take care of if you go, on two
consecutive Sundays, to virtually any
Episcopal church in north America.
you will have to make the effort, initially
cause these folks are not evangelicals.
if you cannot handle high church,
there are homebuilder's associations, if you want to sub.
there are countless civic organizations and special
interest groups.
or do what i did...buy the funkiest house in a good older neighborhood.
start making a lot of noise starting Saturday mornings.
all the neighboring husbands will get real tired of hearing their
wives talking about all the work the new neighbor is doing.
I have not had, anymore, the time to work on my own house
for years.
I did better and still do when I'm hanging out with those that attend synagogues.
Your marketing methods might appeal to you, I simply have decided to head in different directions as I pursue business interests.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
I know the feeling. It's one of the reasons I stopped having employees(not saying that you should or could do that). I just wanted to be more flexible, and I wanted to keep most of the money I made. Now, it's the main reason I'm an employee again.
As far as making money other ways, it's hard to say how to do it. I'm lucky, my dad was a entrepreneur through and through. He made money in crazy ways. Women's shoes, foil balloons, bicycle messenger service, software, used cars, new cars, pool hall, and real estate. Just to name a few.
I learned from him that to keep your eyes, and ears open. Listen for the knock of opportunity. Most of all, don't be afraid to take advantage of that opportunity when it presents itself. He always told me, "If you don't go bankrupt 3 or 4 times, you aren't trying hard enough."
I've been there once, probably be there a second time, but what the hell. I still have my health, and I'll keep trying.
Some people are successful in the stock market. It was never my thing. I prefer to invest my money in tangible things. For example, I'm a silent partner in a fishing charter business on lake Erie. I went on a trip with the guy a couple of years ago, he was a great captain, but had sub standard equipment. He didn't have the capital, or the credit, to upgrade. I saw an opportunity, so I called my banker. I have a hand shake agreement with the guy, some would consider it a high risk, but I just trust the guy. Last year I made $8,000 from that small deal. Not much, but it all adds up.I wish I had a reason; my flaws are open season
Open to suggestions BTW.
Everyone knows I preach the investment for retirement theory .
After years of being up and down with this kind of business I have to re learn it . I must be stupid.
I as everyone else feels confident in being able to handle the work it self , its getting it and being paid . Things dont seem to change . Ive been studying in my mind ways to know whats happening .
One day last week I made a 20 dollar trip to the lumber yard and I wasnt in a hurry. I know everyone almost so chatted for almost an hour while there with different ones with this subject being brought up several times. That was their worry mostly. Then it happened . The slot machine went off ringing in my head. A friend of mine hollered I need to talk to ya ! We walked out front and he told me an awful story of a house he had just built had burned from arson to an older couple while they were away. He had came back with the news of terminal cancer. He wanted to sell the house and move to Houston near the cancer center. He was going to give it a shot in the best place in the world to treat cancer. Problem was he needed to sell quickly. I immediately drove to his motel room and gave him a cash offer . He called the builder and agent and they OKed my offer as being fair considering closing had to be in 4 days with cash. That limited it to an investor only type of purchase.
I made a great buy and he got what he wanted with cash in hand, he headed to Houston to try to save his life .
Before I got away I saw a builder that owned some property adjoining mine over looking a lake . He had no access and his was on a steep slope . It wasnt any good to him for he had bought what he wanted in the bottom portion. His gave mine a view from the top so we both were happy.
They both knew I dealt in property so that helped having common interrest for the "hey I need to talk to you' conversation. I scored one heavy win and a small one in one visit to the lumber yard.
If I was slow at all I would hang out some at the lumber yards talking to every one. The next time I hope to meet some help with my new project. I would assume theres more of those needs. Someone has to have too much work. Opportunity. Someone doesnt want the work they are being asked to do and so on.
It might be hard to meet prospective clients at a lumber yard since we probably dont know them as well as we know our peers. Still our peers have a wealth of information.
Tim
hi, TIm.... you been missed....
nice thing about a favorite lumber yard and treating the employees with respect
me and the lumber yard are joined at the hip... what hurts their customers hurts them....
i've always gotten good referrals from my lumber yard when things slow downMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
And on the flip side of that coin, I have hired my best men by asking a yard manager, "Who is good to hire for this kind of stuff..."
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I always used to pick up a lot of jobs in lumberyards where I was known. go in and shoot the breeze and the guy behing counter says, "Hey, so and so was just in looking for advise how to...I beet he'd be wiling to payfor somebody to save him."
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
one of my fathers best sayings is:
"Things are never as bad or as good as they seem"
Dies.....I think it wasn't too long ago that I was being chastised for being too negative about the framing business LOL! Now look at you!
It's a tough gig unless your in a robust market. We are far too dependent upon the GCs and Builders inclination to set a proper budget. With the drop of a hat, the builders can cut the framing budget from a level where decent wages and benefits were possible to starvation levels where a subcontractor has to let all his good guys move on and sell off his equipment.
Unfortunatly, guys like you, and I, love doing what they do so much that they let emotion get in the way of good business sense. I lived like that for thirty years and have warned about it during the last few...sometimes to the chagrin of young guys that can't possibly know what the future holds for them.
I've watched guys in my markets, who specialized in doing huge customs (10,000 sf and up), who had thriving businesses because they knew how to do high end stuff, had equipment payed for and had decades of experience, pull the plug and say "enough is enough....this doesn't make sense".
Our costs have tripled while our revenue has halved. The heydays are over. It's not a viable business anymore....it might return...but I know I'm not waiting around and I know I'm not jumping on that bandwagon again even if it does.
The earlier in your career that you figure this out, the better chance that you have at figuring out how to build a "real" business.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
Dies.....I think it wasn't too long ago that I was being chastised for being too negative about the framing business LOL! Now look at you!
Yeah... it's hilarious. And I do still think that you're too negative about the framing business in general. However, I will admit that my experience over the past few years makes it easier for me to see why you've become so bitter and jaded.
Now look at me? I'm heading into a slow couple of weeks Blue. Same as last year. Same as the year before that. And same as the year before that. Does that mean I don't worry about it? He11 no. But I'm not ready to sell the farm yet either. I made great money last year while guys were closing up shop around me and I saw development sqft prices drop to around $6.00/ft. I had my most profitable year yet and significantly paid down my loans (truck and forklift) in the process. My personal savings grew substantially, all my guys got raises and bonuses, and I hired two additional employees, one of which is highly experienced and at the top of pay scale for a framing carp. Some might even call this "growth".
Could this be the end of the road? Sure. But that's why we plan for the worst and hope for the best. I'm still working on the "plan for the worst" part, but I'm also still willing to hope for the best as well. The truth of the matter is that neither you nor I really know if this is the end of the road or the beginning of a boom. Speculation is just that.... speculation.
But I do know that people who believe they can't succeed..... don't succeed.
To say that you can't make a decent living at framing is crap. I'm living proof of otherwise. Nobody said it was gonna be easy. If they did.... you done got lied to.View Image
I've jumped around and tried different things (occupations) and I know friends and relatives who've done the same thing.One of my friends was a minister and he quit and got into something completely different. He struggled for a while and things eventually got better.I think it's a mistake (from my experience anyway) to jump from one field and go into something else, completely and totally different, and involves "start at square one".Have you ever read any of these books where they interview people who have become really successful and made a lot of money?One book says to examine your career and evaluate yourself as follows "are you the most knowledgeable guy in town in your field? If not, then learn as much as you can so that you are known as "the expert".Some people have been very successful by expanding upon what they already know.I don't have the names and dates, but years ago a guy worked as an auto mechanic and he and his wife became millionaires by developing the first liquid hand cleaner.Another guy owned a gas station and he expanded his business by adding groceries, beer, and cigarettes, and wala he had the first convenience store. He made a lot of money.Good luck !^^^^^^
a Smith & Wesson beats four Aces
Look on the bright side - you know which two week window to schedule Massfest for in 2011 so you'll be busy then
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
To say that you can't make a decent living at framing is crap.
Decent living is not the same thing as creating a "real" business. Decent living is a relative term.
I used to make a decent living. I had many months where I could net 30k working 40 hours a week with my crew. I went years working 7 till noon and happily coached high school soccer. I lived many years where I was the only income earner. My wife was a stay at home mom and I lived in a safe, cushy suburban neighborhood, in a new house, AS AN hourly APPRENTICE, working only 35 hours a week! I left my house after all the other people left for work and was home sipping beers to watch them return!
Okay...so I know the difference between "decent living" and what is on the table today. If I thought there was a future as a business in framing, I'd be working diligently with Frank to exploit it because that is where our expertise is. The reality is this: the dynamics of the market for subcontracting framers has changed so significantly that I'd be doing Frank great harm by leading him down that path. Yes, some guys are still in that business and they have a "decent living" but I also happen to know that the largest framing contractors in Macomb County have fled to Vegas LOL! The little guys are picking up enough scraps to doom themselves to poverty and many of those will soon find out what the IRS thinks about their plans to survive LOL!
We happened to be working in the busiest sub last year in Macomb Township with a builder that we had a very close relationship with. We are working at substandard prices nevertheless. Another contractor came through and talked to every builder and pitched an offer like this "I don't care what you are paying right now to any framer. I will cut his price 10% right now on every house, every model". Guess what. He got a job or two from this approach. Some of the builders were still loyal to their framing contractors that they worked with for many years. Instead of hiring this new guy in town, they just called their framing contractors up and offered them to match the 10% cut!
Frank and I just laughed. We really don't care how much lower they want to cut the rates....it was already 50% under what it needs to be to pay our guys fair. It really doesn't matter, we don't intend to be framing contractors any more than we have too. The "good ole days" are over. If I want to frame, I'll have to be an "artist". Artists don't earn "decent" livings until they are dead. I'm just taking a more pragmatic approach to the economic realities of the day.
Guess what? The illegals haven't fully entered our market LOL! They represent perhaps 30% of the framers but their numbers are increasing. Pretty soon, your $6 per square foot will look like dreamland.
Incidently we would go broke framing for $6 per foot. Oh wait.....that's already happening LOL!
Maybe I'll try selling my "real" framing business and retire off the income! Hahahahahahahaha.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
The only thing that post was missing was a "When I was your age....."
If you think you can't..... you won't. Over complicate it all you want. Insult the trade that fed your family all you want. But at the end of the day I'm making money, my bills get paid, and I'm enjoying what I'm doing. If my little hobby doesn't meet your criteria of a "real business" then so be it.
I don't subscribe to the notion that the sky is falling. Not yet any way. Plan for the worst and hope for the best.
View Image
Edited 3/4/2007 2:52 pm ET by dieselpig
Now, now, now Diesel. I'm not insulting the trade. I'm insulting the "business" of the trade. You keep failing to heed the difference.
I will tell you how to succeed in the trade as a "real" business. You either have to put down the tools and work the office full time, or hire a full time office manager, complete with staff and salespeople. After you've done that, I'll call you a real business. There are many that have exactly that, though very few in residential carpentry.
Don't shoot the messenger.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
I get your point loud and clear Blue. I have no false dreams of one day selling off my shares of McCarthy General Contracting and living off the fat. When the end comes, I'll be lucky if I can even sell my tools for a profit let alone the business. I still work in the field because that's where I want to be Blue. That may not fill your criteria and goals.... but it fills mine. My goal is to be happy and economically secure.... not to have you anoint me with the title "real business".
Maybe we disagree because we are at two different places in our careers/lives. For me, framing suits me just fine. I enjoy the physical labor. On the whole, it pays well. Well enough for my wife and I to live very comfortably in our lifestyle. Well enough that I can afford to "work to live" instead of "living to work". Well enough that I can pay for and find the time to enjoy other interests and hobbies. However, I'd be a fool not to plan for the future and diversify a bit. But I don't subscribe to the notion that "it's all over" quite the way that you do. There are solutions other than just "cut and run" which seems to be the only advice you have to offer on the topic.
And save the "now, now, now" stuff for your grandkids Blue. It's condescending and unnecessary.View Image
Watching you two bicker is interesting.
Do you think that part of the difference in your 2 outlooks is the local economy? I can't imagine Michigan is flush with jobs. Job growth drives the new home market. MI is probably like Oregon in 80-85. Spotted Owl drove out logging. Nothing else here to fall back on. Till wafer fab plants came in the early 90's. But the early 80's were a tuff time to be in construction.
DP how is the economy in Boston? I thought your area was doing pretty well. Maybe not 2006 well, but well by historical measures.
Maybe this explains the different outlooks
I think Blue is vying for Mooney's spot here.................that was just a joke; both of you![email protected]
WHICH content will be free, of course; WHICH content will require registration; but WHICH content will be available only to members of FineHomebuilding.com.???
My take on the discussion is that it's not so much about local economics as it is about perspective.
Dieselpig cares about two things: 1) make enough money to afford the life you want, and 2) enjoy the work. There's some chance that in ten or twenty years Brian will be in another line of work, maybe due to the economy, maybe by choice, but it will still be about the two requirements, the cash, and the enjoyment of the work. Seems ok to me.
Whether or not you are at a desk or swinging a hammer doesn't seem to make a difference to the question of whether you are in business. The accountant will tell you if you are "in business".
There is no doubt that Brian loves his carpentry business, as much or more than I loved mine. I'm living proof, along with everyone that I've ever known in the industry (residential framing), that there is no business pot at the end of the rainbow. My only hope for any type of business income, as I age, from framing, resides in my business association and partnership with Frank. Together, we have forged a business relationship that merges our two talents: my experience and his youthful ambition. As a carpentry framing contractor, I have no ambition, mainly because I don't want to subject myself to the low level of financial security that it brings.
As far as describing whether it is a busines or not, I guess it depends upon the definition. Using the criteria that an author such as Robert Kyosaki, it would not qualify as a business, if my memory serves me correctly. I think in his book, the CAshflow Quadrant, he clearly points out that many self employed people get trapped by their success and create jobs for themselves that they cant escape. The more successful their selfemployment gig is, the more they cannot find time for relaxation and enjoyment. They often work themselves into exhaustion and burn out. I fit that description several times in my business career.
One of Robert's challenges is to create systems that allow the business to operate if the business owner stays away for a year. If the business is more profitable at the end of the year, Robert says that it is a true business. Is Robert the last word on what constitutes a business? Of course not and anyone can offer their own description. I just happen to acknowledge his offerings because they hit home so close to me when I read them. Many of the things he wrote about were the exact things that I agonized over during my year to year struggles as a tradesman business owner.
Keep in mind, that I didn't have the benefit of a site like this to hash things out. I'd lay in my bed at night and wonder how life could be so difficult for someone like me who had put so much heart and soul into something. Understanding the dynamics that caused the underlying pain of the business would have been quite helpful in my development.
Now, in my later years, I've decided to end my carpentry career and concentrate on differnt skills that I possess. I still introduce myself all over town as a carpenter, but I'm really pursuing a career in the business of real estate. No matter what though, I am and always will be a carpenter. Someday, I may have two titles, but today, I have only one. I've never built a business, but I have did the carpentry on a few houses. I'm not a builder, but I've built one and together I have specced one, although I really didn't do much, so I can't claim the experience. I don't really have a desire to be a builder though...but I am looking at some property that I can put condos on....as a developer.
I can see where the guys running carpentry subcontracting businesses would be sick of hearing the bad news that comes with twenty or thirty years in the subcontracting business sector though. I honestly hope they get so mad at me that they prove me wrong. They won't prove anthing about what I am saying wrong though if they don't expand their company from one crew led by themselves. That is a sure recipe for ending up like me and the thousands and thousands of other one crew bands that make up the majority of what we call the framing industry.
Lets all face it, yes, technically its a business...just not a very good one in most localities. I have the skills and tools to stay busy all year but I just dont think the return on investment of the time (2000 hours per year) is worth it.
Brian claims that I am jaded and bitter and in many ways he is correct. I am bitter but I am also grateful. I gave my best years to carpentry and they rewarded me with great memories and a sense of accomplishment. Now though, I have to move on to the next phase of my life's work....earning and creating a retirement income for my wife and I. I don't see a path in framing unless I enter a segment of that market that I don't want to be in: commercial framing. I've struggled long enough in residential. Perhaps my living style was too lavish or my hours that I'm willing to devote to it are too limited. Whatever it is, it isn't working for me and Frank hasn't come close to making a go of it. I'm much better at creating cashflow than Frank is and so he's not really adverse to shifting gears and getting away from framing.
All in all, it's a good topic if we all can keep our heads and not get too personal. I respect anyone that wants to make a go of it, I really do. Carpentry is an honorable endeavor.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
Diesel,
You might as well rest your case. You will never out talk him, or type him in this case. He has been looking for the new pot of gold for 3-4 years now. Sooner or later Amway will come back around maybe. How is your wife doing? DanT
Yeah, I know. I'm probably just beating my head against the wall. Blue and I are just different about some things... this isn't the first time we've had our differences. Maybe I'm dead wrong... but I gotta go with my gut. Besides I really don't want to do anything else (that pays) except build houses. At least right now anyway.
My wife is doing very well, thanks for asking. She's a trooper. She puts up with me after all. Good to see you popping in here too.
-BrianView Image
Besides I really don't want to do anything else (that pays) except build houses
Now hold on there! If you are talking about being a builder, then I'm going to tell you that it's would be a significant business, one that has a very bright future. All my postings have been with regard to being a framing contractor.
Note to Jim. I don't regret any of my years in the trade or business. It's just time to move on and finance my retirement. I know I could spend the next twenty five years out in the field as a framing contractor. My systems are perfected to the degree that I can survive, if I'm willing to cut the workers wages, but I don't feel it's fair to them or their families. I'd rather not be involved in sweatshop businesses, just like I don't want to be involved in slumlording. It's a sad fact that I have to make, here in MI.
I looked at the opportunities near my daughter in TX and they are as dismal as here, with regard to the services and skills I bring to the table. The illegals there have already driven the prices so low that the only thing that I saw as a feasible way to stay in residential was to become a project manager and sit in a trailer. I'm not ready for that yet, at least not on somebody's payroll. I could enter into the commercial carpentry business there, or here, but I've never been a big fan of that stuff. I have enough experience with it to decide that it's not for me, just like I know I don't like interior finish carpentry. We all have our fortes and desires right?
This discussion between Diesel and I is about the relative value of a residential framing business. I can't/wont say that they aren't viable somewhere else here in the states, but I just don't know anyone, ANYONE here in MI that is successful at running one, legit, nor have I ever shook the hand an met one in all my years of framing. Not a single one that I know of has survived while paying their men fair wages, above the table, with benefits. I know I don't know everyone, but I really think I would have heard about at least one in my thirty years plodding out here in the mud, don't you think? I thought I was going to be the one, but that illusion was wiped out very early in my budding framing career. I've many time stated that I love carpentry, but I don't like the business of carpentry.
Sorry if I have this perspective. It does hurt me too though.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
I never said that you did regret your career, blue. And I hope you didn't think that I did. You have your own path to walk. Far be it from me to even give a second thought to the decisions you, or anyone else, make. It's none of my business.
Seems to me you still have the passion for building. I have often read your recollections of earlier times and thought - I can relate. In fact, I can relate to what you're saying lately about your business. One thing is sure, if you believe it's time for a change? It is.
I was just trying to let Diesel know that he has some kindred souls out here. In fact, I think there are a lot of us who look at carpentry as far more than a trade, or a hobby. To many of us it's a calling. But in all my years in the profession I have only worked with a few, so I like to celebrate them wherever I run across them.
People can intellectualize and reason through and rationalize many reasons to maintain, or change, their life position. I have found it best to follow my heart. Do we rely on my wife's income? Without a doubt. But do we also rely on my sense of fulfillment (and hers)? Clearly.
It's a wounderful, whacky world we live in, and we all have different needs.
Gots to run. Got two young carpenters sharpening their pencils plotting how to run the old man ragged again. Catch you later. Remodeling contractor who once visited the Glass City.
I hear what you're saying and I don't come at this from experience in business, so take it for what it's worth. I think you are being too tough on yourself. If real estate sales is where you are going then go there and do well. If the ride was rough in the framing business then so what. It got you this far, right?
Don't put too much stock in Robert Kyosaki, he's widely suspected to be a fraud. I guarantee he does not really have the experience that you have. He just was successful at selling books. He has very little really good advice for you.
Stick with the 2 pig-points: 1) Can I make the living that you need? 2) Will I enjoy the work?
Mike, I'm not interested at all in real estate sales. An I'm not at all being too tough on myself. I'm simply relating the realities of my thirty some years in the framing field.
The problems with framing are the same problems that face any trade that can be entered into with under $500 of capital outlay: a watered down field of experts ready and willing to do anything to survive. The current crop of self employed contractors in our area is comprised of one framer, who's wife is working and supplies all the health benefits. The framer, needs to make enough money to pay his truck payment. He manages to do this by cutting prices to win jobs. He has enough money to pay all his help as little as possible, no benefits and often he 1099's all of them.
I survived that reality through two periods of recession already here in Michigan and this third recession started back when Clinton was still in office. As I view the future of framing contractors here in MI, it is plainly obvious that we are at the bottom, but realistically, we will go a lot lower before we ever rebound! That sounds impossible, but you don't know how bad things really can get when the auto workers (which are abundant) jump into the fray with their large pensions, working spouses and lots of free time which they like to use up doing "building stuff". It's not unthinkable that we will see guys in the future bidding work, just to keep busy and be happy if they make ZERO dollars per hour. You think I'm kidding? I've already experienced that many times. They do this stuff "just to get out of the house"!
Am I jaded? Naw. Just realistic and experienced. I've already lived through the depression here in MI where I traveled an hour each day into the wealthiest zip code in the country (per capita) and saw ZERO houses being framed for many months at a time. I was a framing contractor and I landed one house in two years from a very close business associate. You wouldn't believe the terms if I told you. That time is again coming here in MI...all it will take is few short ticks of the mortgage interest rate. Already the market is so slack that most builders I know are doing nothing. They did absolutely nothing last year and don't have any inquireies yet this year. If I wasnt substantially involved in the school project, I'd already have left MI behind.
Framing is a boom or bust business and if you cant pad two to three years worth of living during your boom years, I'd strongly advise against hanging in there with it. Of course, if the wife is carrying the financial burden, and if someone doesn't mind paying poverty wages to skilled grown men with families, and only working them part time at that, then perhaps the framing business is perfect.
Hard on myself? No hardly. No pun intended.
blue
"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
Boston suburbs are just about always a pretty good place to be. New home sales were certainly down last year. I went from March of '06 until November of '06 without framing a single true new construction home. I survived, thrived even, by framing additions and remodels for most of the spring, all summer, and part of the fall. It's not glamorous and can really be stressful, but it pays pretty good and it's very interesting, to say the least.
Forecasts are good though. As I stated earlier, new home sales were up 11-12% for January. And predictions are that by mid/late spring the majority of the surplus homes will be sold off allowing the market to stabilize some which should allow new construction to pick up a bit. The remodeling/addition market hasn't really wavered as far as I can tell in my market. The people who really have the money seem to still be finding creative ways to spend it.View Image
And save the "now, now, now" stuff for your grandkids Blue. It's condescending and unnecessary.
Lets not get carried away here. I'm not condescending anyone and the now, now now is a simple attempt to tone down a conversation while I attempt to get it back on track.
The simple facts are that I am at a different phase in my carpenter career. I've already lived through the exact phase that you are in. You would never, ever be able to convince me that you love your trade more than I did though. You can't possibly understand how much I still love my trade and wish I could devote more time to it. Financially, I don't have any more time though I have to build a business first, then perhaps I might be financially independent enough to pursue my trade as and artist or hobbiest might.
The facts are that the business of carpentry is not the same as working in the field with your hands as a carpenter. All too often we trademen tend to confuse the two. You elect to ignore those same realities at your own peril.
So, how would you handle things if your wife didn't work and you fell and found yourself in a wheelchair?
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
The facts are that the business of carpentry is not the same as working in the field with your hands as a carpenter. All too often we trademen tend to confuse the two. You elect to ignore those same realities at your own peril.
You assume that I'm ignoring that reality, when in truth, you have no idea how I run my business or even what perspective I view my business in. My opinion is that you are ignoring the fact that "this" is the business of small time subcontracting companies. You want to cram it into some other business model that it just doesn't fit into.
I accept the fact the my "business" needs me and that while it could coast for awhile without me, it is not and probably never will be self supporting. The main underlying fact that I attribute that to is simply an overhead issue. I don't feel that I could remain competitive (land the necessary volume of work) and still charge what I would need to cover the overhead involved in an operation that would need an office, a bookkeeper, a secretary, sales people, and ultimately... multiple crews. And to be fair.... I have no interest in running an operation like that. But really, that's neither here nor there in this discussion.
So, how would you handle things if your wife didn't work and you fell and found yourself in a wheelchair?
Well Blue, I'd probably be screwed like 95% of the rest of the population put into the same scenario. However, having disability insurance on myself and some of my equipment that isn't yet paid for certainly helps. Having my wife's health insurance certainly would help some as well. But this is still coming back to my "plan for the worst and hope for the best" battle cry. I refuse to live in fear, but I'm not ignorant enough to ignore all possibilities either.
The fact that for the time being all my eggs are in one basket, so to speak, is simply a function of time. I've only recently begun the growth stage of my life where I'm actually making real money. Acquiring the assests and insurance against a tragedy like that takes time. My plan is to purchase rental properties in the near future. However I'm not comfortable with over extending myself with credit so I'm saving hard and paying off existing credit before I extend myself any further. I do, however, keep a home equity line of credit open, in case something that is too good to pass up should cross my plate. I'd eventually like to build on spec, however I'm still not convinced that that's a much safer way to make money than de-wiring bombs for the police department. Possibly remodeling or GC'ing is in my future (I got my license a few years ago) but right now I have no interest in the handholding that goes along with either of those occupations. I'd like to see myself semi-retired around 55ish doing small handyman jobs at my own pace... by myself. In truth, I'd frame houses by myself right now if I could.
It's no secret that you get under my skin Blue. I think that stems from a couple different things. First, you often say things that I simply don't want to hear. Some of it is reality, and for that I respect and appreciate you. However some of it is just your own personal experience that may not hold true for everyone, everywhere and yet you dismiss anything to the contrary because you can't accept that your reality isn't everyone's reality. Other times you're just down right condescending and when you are, throwing a bunch of "LOL's" into your post does nothing but further aggravate me. But these are my problems, not yours.
Regardless of our differences, don't doubt that I respect you. You're a 'been there, done that' kind of guy who is a wealth of experience and information. I'm probably best to just sit back and listen, take what applies, and throw away the rest. However I've got a big mouth, and if I think you're wrong I'm probably going to tell you about it. In that way, I think that we're probably more alike than either of us care to admit.... and that may very well be part of the problem.
But at the end of the day, you were framing houses while I was wearing diapers and drooling on myself. Your total houses framed probably adds up to more than my total days worked. And for that reason, I'll always listen when you're talking. However, don't be surprised if I don't take all of it as gospel and don't be surprised if my experience differs from yours. I respect your point of view and experience even when it differs from mine. A little reciprocation would be nice.View Image
A little reciprocation would be nice
Sorry about all those LOLs. I used to use hehehehes, but I'm just trying to put them in to say that I'm not offended, and am actually very happy having a real discussion with a kindred soul, one who has plodded through the mud, just like you and I have on some very nasty days.
I don't think there is a rough framer in this entire country that I couldn't look in the eyes and display my utpmost respect for and that certainly includes someone like you, who has taken up the shackles, err, I mean profession of framing contractor. I get along with every contractor that I know, even those that have endeavored to cut my throat out there in the field. I accept them for what they are: warriors.
Furthermore, I admire you for not taking my medicine without a fight. I know for a fact that I am not right about whatever I think, or post and yes, quite often our realities are miles apart. The beauty of this site is that two people in the same boat can exchange ideas and experiences related to the exact business or choice of career that is dear to their hearts. The condescending part is a bitter pill for me to take though, becasue I have nothing but admiration for anyone in the trades so I don't really know why I'd want to be condescending to them. Heck, I can look druggies and drunks in the eyes and know that they are decent carpenters....I've been doing that for years hehehehe! I LOVE CARPENTERS....ALL CARPENTERS..well, maybe not whiny trim carpenters.... .
Anyways, it's good to get some things off my chest and this topic is the place to do it, after all it's titled "So, when do you hang it up?" As a framer, I had to hang it up after burning out once, and I can relate to that thought in very real terms. The things I'm talking about here pertain very well to that question...the OP just probably hasn't gotten that far yet in his life...or perhaps just likes to see our exchanges. I'm glad we had the opportunity to go another round in a thread that actually fits well with our little spat.
I am sincerly sorry if you have ever felt that I was condescending. Framer Joe has said the same things to me and I have recognized mistakes in some of my posts and tried my best to correct them. I will be more diligent in the future regarding things that may be condescending and I thank you for speaking the truth to me.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
--"I LOVE CARPENTERS....ALL CARPENTERS..well, maybe not whiny trim carpenters.... ."NOWWAITAMINUTE! If it weren't for framers, I would not have much to whine about! ;o)In the house I just finished trimming, the framer set a pocket door frame 1/2" out of plumb...3' landing over 3/8" out of level...stair stringers leaning back so far the treads were over 1/4" out of level in 11" BLAH BLAH BLAH!Besides giving the trim carp something to whine about, crummy framing sets guys like you and Brian apart...I think there will always be a market for quality work.Things in my market have slowed to a crawl (both housing starts and remod permits have dropped by half for three years in a row), but I am busier than ever...I don't really even have time to be here whining. I might just have to give up whining...think of what trim carps like me could do with all that extra time (if they just never took the time to whine about anything).Cheers,BassEdit to say: I meant that the crummy framing OF OTHERS sets guys like you apart. <g>
Edited 3/5/2007 12:49 pm ET by basswood
Bass, a good trimmer could figure out how to hide all them minor mistakes LOL!
I don't know how things like that get out of whack, but occasionally, I've had callbacks on things that were shockingly out of whack. Sometimes, it's miscalculation on how materials react. For instance, I once built a circular set of stair and used dimensional lumber (2x12's) for the risers. I laminated a 2x4 ledger to the bottom of each riser to carry the tread. I thought it was nifty. It worked great. It looked great. I personally leveled each one.
Now, I can spot things out of level as well as anyone. I walked up and down those stairs a hundred times if I walked them once. I never, ever saw anything that needed tweaking. The day we finished, we did our usual routine of looking around for anything, even teensy weensy minor to tweak. We were done, finished, things were perfect.
I was shocked months later when Frank told me he had to go back and fix the treads. They were a mess he said. They were 1/2" out of level. Luckily, he could still get underneath. He had to lift the treadstock and do some serious shimming. Of course, lifting them wasn't easy because I've been known to be a bit anal about gluing up stair systems. Of course, people who saw the stairs before we fixed them thought that some hack built them and possibly they are right...but I know I did my best work on them and they were perfect when I left.
The type of trimmer I was referring to would be the kind that would meet me at that jobsite, then proceed to dis me in any way possible when I went to fix those stairs. I've had more than my share of trimmers look down their noses at me, my guys or any number of other framers, simply because we are the "rough carpenters" and they get to see everyone of our warts. Of course, they never show us theirs...but I know they are in every trimmers house too.
I've had trimmers fix my tread heights, after whining to the builder that I didn't know what I was doing. Of course, after the builder and I meet there, view the "fix" and I explain how the trimmer has screwed the pooch and the treads will be wrong in the finish....the trimmer isn't around to apologize to me for dissing me when I wasn't there to explain to him what he was doing wrong.
I'm not perfect, neither is anyone. I'm the kinda framer that looks to protect the other tradesmen that I work after, rather than badmouth them. I became a competent framer long enough ago so that I don't have to knock someone down to make myself feel good. I feel good about what I do and instead of discussing the cause of problems, I stay focused on solutions, just like I've done with my guys every day of the year.
I'm confident that you figured out a way to hide those errors. I wouldnt' want to deal withthem either. I think the first thing I'd go looking for on that landing and stairs was a settleing floor system. Sometimes shrinkage plays funny games and quite often ten minutes down in the basement can fix a myriad of out of level/plumb situations.
The pocket door out of plumb 1/2" sounds serious dependig on which way it's out of plumb. If it just means inserting fatter shims...then I don't think it would even register in my brain if I was trimming. The builer might be a bit peeved if he had substantial mud work to hide a gap, but I'd do everything in my power to fit that door system in a manner that eliminated further work by any trade. I'm sure you do the same.
Congrats on keeping busy. In a declining market, some will always remain busy. For us, it was always musical chairs. Sometimes, when things were booming, I'd have to choose between this builder or that one. I was always turning down two houses for every one I framed. I'd try to choose wisely because there were always dead periods, mostly due to frost laws. Sometimes I'd choose right and roll through winter/spring and start the real building season on full roll. Most often, I'd be scrambling....
Actually the most productive and easiest way to stay profitable as a framing contractor was to run five crews, something I didn't have the stomach for, due to the lmited amount of quality leads. It is much easier to run five crews because when one crew ran themselves out of work for a couple days or weeks, you just split the guys up and send one to each crew that you still have working.
I guess my suggestion to anyone that wants to stay in business as a framing contractor is to run five crews. Personally, I got up to 25 guys and decided that I'd rather jump off a bridge! I got real tired of guys smashing their fingers, cutting themselves on gussets, smashing windows and the endless stories of why they can't perform. One guy, who I pulled off the welfare roles had to quit after working several weeks with me. He loved working with me, but I had to do some other business for a couple days and when I came back, he had quit. The reason? The work was interfering in his sex life! hehehehehe.
If you saw his wife, you'd have known that was a lie!
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
But at the end of the day, you were framing houses while I was wearing diapers and drooling on myself.
The ironic part, Brian, is that he was framing houses when you were in diapers and drooling on yourself, and you'll probably be framing houses when he is wearing diapers and drooling on himself.......lol.
Didn't think of that one, didja kid??? lol
Bob
Edited 3/8/2007 6:56 pm ET by BobKovacs
keerful , bob.... the irony will eat you upMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
yeah, but I just couldn't pass that one up, Mr. Smith..... ;)
Bob
I laughed so hard at that I started drooling
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I laughed so hard that I stopped drooling!Wait a second...
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon, be careful.... that happens when you laugh so hard you start aspirating the drool, and then you may die laughing!
Well I'm happy I could provide you with some early morning amusement- just make sure you don't get any on the keyboard.......
Bob
"Brilliance!! Sheer, unadulterated brilliance!! That's all I can say....." Wile E. Coyote- Super Genius
Edited 3/9/2007 8:05 pm ET by BobKovacs
Edited 3/9/2007 8:07 pm ET by BobKovacs
yes, doody-head, but he's our doody -head and that makes it special
hang in there , blue... who loves ya ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Be Blue
Be special
Be opinionated................[email protected]
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thank god you and i are not opinionated !.... but that blue.. why , the noive !Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
LOL.... that was pretty sharp Bob....pretty sharp. :)View Image
and that Blue was miserable when DP was in diapers ...
and Blue is miserable now ...
and Blue will be miserable when he's in diapers ...
and the cycle of life continues ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Actually, I don't think I'm that miserable Jeff, then or now. I'm sitting on the edge of Lake Huron and listening to some beautiful music. It's very peaceful and the vista is one to die for. I've had people tell me that they think this place is magical, like heaven, awesome, enchanting and a host of other compliments.
The first picture was the sunrise I was treated to this glorious morning. The second picture I took just before I posted this. The third picture was taken last week when I was treated to a beautiful outdoor winter ice storm scenery.
Actually, I feel very, very blessed to be where I am. I'm looking forward to where I'm heading too and am very thankful for where I've been in the past.
Miserable doesn't really describe me.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
beautiful place ..
too bad yer so cranky all the time.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Perhaps if I agree with what anyone says, I'd be percieved as happy?
Discussing things/experieces is nothing more than that, a discussion. I'm not the one who gets bent out of shape, or gets bent out of shape. I'm comfortable with where I've been, where I'm at and where I'm going. My experieces are meainingful and therefore I share them. They might not be applicable to anyone that reads them, but I hardly think this should classify me as cranky.
In fact, I happily wrote this reply to you. Your perception of me might be miserable and cranky but I think if you came over here and hung out with me, walked around the neighborhood and met the people that I interact with, you'd find out that I'm a happy go lucky guy.
I'm especially happy because I just baked, and ate six Craisin/Oatmeal cookies. That's living large!
But, if you think I'm miserable and cranky, so be it. I seem to be tagged for a lot of things. Bob Walker tells me I'm not a Libertarian. Pino tells me that I'm a far right neo con. I find it all pretty amusing....that's why I hang out here. It's a comedy show all day, every day.
I did learn how to do some sketchup stuff though, so today isn't totally devoid of productive activity.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
u r a doody head!
Blue, you're the best!
[email protected]
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nothing wrong with being cranky ...
embrace it!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Thanks guys, I feel the love!
And y'all want to know something ironic? I'm going to help Frank on a real jobsite on Monday....actually doing some framing?!!!! Then, I'm going to attend a "free estimate" Monday night!
I don't know if I'll be able to take all this excitement.
I hope I can find my hammer.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
You better find it, I'm pretty sure that the frame job is mine. Talked with the GC on Friday.
Schedule on it's way soon.
Frank told me he knows where my stuf is! I had to laugh when he told me that. I just told him I'll show up monday and if there's no tools for me, I'll just hang out around the fire bucket all day. He laughed and told me that it's going to be 60 degrees!
We'll find a way to get out there to help you.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
Yes sir the weather is changing, finally.
I will be getting more details by the end of the week, I'll keep you posted.
I thought of something that might interest some of the guys like you and Tim Mooney and Larry in Wichita. (guys that have a lot of experience with real estate investing).You make money by teaching real estate investing.You charge $100 ? for an evening class or $200 for a saturday.You get 20 to 30 people to sign up and you're talking some pretty good $$$.Every other Joe Schmoe you run into wants to be an investor. These people might want to come take your classes. Why not make some money and benefit from the knowledge you've acquired over the years.Other people are doing it. (teaching these classes)Is anybody (local) doing this where you live?^^^^^^
a Smith & Wesson beats four Aces
Well, Mr. Fix-It, it looks like everyone’s gone jumped on the investment class bandwagon.<!----><!----><!---->-T
Blue, in David Gerstel’s book, he makes a distinction between “builders†and “developers.†With “developers,†he says, “almost all work is subcontracted.†While he uses the term “builder,†to refer to all construction company models other than subcontracting, the contrast between “developer†and the rest of them is that every other one does some of the building themselves.<!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Why do I point out this seemingly irrelevant aspect of grammar? Because a builder functioning in any form besides a developer (independent artisan, practice, lead person, production manager, or in-house contractor), is going to do some of the building. Usually that building is the frame. (The following is not Gerstel’s input, but simply my own speculation.) Why the frame? Besides the obvious chronological factor, that’s where the money is.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
I can already see you inching to reply before you finish reading this post: “There is no money in this business!†But I’m not done yet. Anyone working as framing subcontractor will almost always be employed by a developer. Before the developer became a developer, he was a builder. The builder made a profit on every sub for acting as the general contractor. The sub then made a profit to boot. Since the builder did the framing himself, he must charge for only one profit in this category – his own.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Now the builder has become a developer, but he still has to compete with the price of a builder. How is he going to do this and still maintain his profit on the frame? Simple: Framing package – profit = a framing subcontractor’s rate.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
This is just a guess, but if it is correct, a framing subcontractor is the only subcontractor that cannot make a profit. That brings me to my final point: Why on earth would anyone be a framing subcontractor? They could be a builder doing the framing, subbing everything ells out, and making a profit on all of it to boot? I can only think of one answer: They want to work for themselves, but they don’t want to have to run a business. In other words: Builder – business = framing subcontractor.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
I think I agree that in a since, frame subcontracting is not a business.<!----><!---->-T
Framing and building are worlds apart. Not far apart, but they are.
A lot of framers could probably build a house/if they wanted to/if they had the money or investors, and if the wanted to take the risk of sitting on something that may not sell or worse yet actually drop in value from what was the anticipated value when the project began.
In the last scenario, a developer may weather the downturn, but a guy with a crew and kids to feed is gonna take a punch in the nose.[email protected]
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Developers have bankers to feed too.
IIf they are stretched too thin, somebody will be able to step in cheap and the developer will be starting over.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You certainly cleared it all up for me!
That's what I was trying to say! More importantly, you've verbalized something I've been struggling with for a couple of years now....how to categorize myself. Up till now, I've always introduced myself as a carpenter and now I realize that I'm a developer, thanks to you.
Frank is a the Builder in my equation.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
These guys don't get it because they don't live in Michigan. I couldn't give away a job last year, much less sell one that had any profit margin.The only way to continue in the trades is to follow the herd to other states.
I wouldn't categorize them as "not getting it". In fact, both points of view are right because we basically are looking at things with different goals in mind.
It's true that they might not understand the full depth of the difficulties that Michiganders face, but the discussion was more of a philosophical one, rather than an economical one.
I see in your profile that you are an engineer, which typically is a well paying job with lots of employment opportunities. That was before: today is today. I don't think any job is safe in MI because so many small companies have been downsizing during the last decade and the basic mood of EVERYONE in the metro detroit area is bleak. No one knows anyone that isn't worrying about someone in their family. Economic climates like that make doing basic business tough, at every level.
What kind of engineering do you do? Are you in Metro Detroit, or outstate?
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
I'm in aerospace and this company is in Walled Lake. They plan to be relocated to Nevada, Arizon or Utah by 2010. I will most likely relocate with them. This state is a sinking ship and I'm not willing to drown myself and my family with it.
As soon as our CEO heard Granholm was re-elected, he began planning the move west...I can't say I blame him!
Perhaps I'll let this company move us west then I'll try my biz again where it's much more viable.
I left this place in late '03 and started a cabinet making/trim biz. What a stupid idea...only 10% of my customers gave a shlt about quality. All they wanted was cheap, even if it was made by some part-timer working out of the back of his rusty pick-up. Oh, I'm starting to rant again...
This was an interesting tid-bit of news I woke up to today:
"Based on January figures, Detroit has the highest rate of foreclosures of any city in the nation.
Michigan has the second-highest rate of foreclosures."
http://www.clickondetroit.com/money/11254240/detail.html
Say it again, brotherman!Joe Fuscoe used to say whenever someone asked the board if they should chuck whatever they were doing and pursue a career building "many are called, few are chosen". It's the truth. When that rare combination of opportunity and the right person meet, it's well worth giving yourself over to it. The rewards so far outweigh the risks (and I'm not talking finances here) it's an easy decision to follow your heart.Do I ever think about hiring on as a carpenter, giving up my liscense? Heck yes. But do I ever seriously regret 30 some years of a career as a carpenter? No freakin' way. I just feel sorry for all those folks who haven't had the same fulfillment from their life's work as I have - whatever work they do. Life is good. "make love to your family, your community and your work, and they will all make love to you" (that Italian guy).Remodeling contractor who once visited the Glass City.
Not being in the field would kill me Jim. I'm no good without physical labor in my life. It screws with my head, to be honest. I'm sure I'll slow down someday, maybe get sick of the cold, or the heat.... but right now I'm right where I need to be. I take solice in the fact that I'm still willing to pick up a shovel and dig holes if the only other alternative is a desk job or retail or some other form of pergatory. But I really don't see that happening any time soon. I just picked up a little filler job siding a house I recently framed. I'll try to stay flexible and see what shakes out.
I still believe the grass is never truly greener on the other side, the good old days weren't really that good, and 'right now' ain't such a bad place to be.View Image
heh, heh, heh.... you said "solice"Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
What you laughing about? You're home too at 10:30 on a Monday. Get back in your corner Smith. ;)View Image
He's probably getting paid to write a proposal. It's not even 8 out here so I'm still covered.
got my field jones by putting a coat of sanding -sealer on the garage stairs..
sides..Roy & Chuck are working diligently
and i'm pretty sure i'm about one week away from a contract for a new house.. turnkey
damn.. this March weather is worse than JanuaryMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
and i'm pretty sure i'm about one week away from a contract for a new house.. turnkey
Hey, good deal Mike!
What a day huh? Blue and Diesel kissed and made up and you're ready to land the next big job.
What's next?[email protected]
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jlc-live is next....Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I'm dying for a coupla days off but can't swing it at the moment. JLC will be my carrot for the next few weeks.[email protected]
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I wanted to take issue with a couple of things you said.What is the best job in the world?What is the worst job in the world?Everyone has their own answers to these questions and what one person likes another person hates and can't tolerate.Statistically, most people today DO NOT like their jobs. If you like your job you are in the MINORITY.It wasn't always this way.Twenty five years ago the majority liked their jobs.I went to college to be a teacher. I hated it and quit. I went back to school and got a degree in counseling and after 16 years I quit because I was burned out and broke.Have you ever had a personality conflict with a co-worker? How about with your boss?Has it ever gotten to the point where you have to watch yourself or you're going to end up assaulting your boss (punching him) and you're worried you'll end up in jail or losing your professional license?When you walk away from something like that and work for yourself, it's a completely different world. A lot less stress.When I quit my job to go out on my own I decided I don't care how bad things get, I will not go back to working under someone else's direct supervision. I will work outside in 120 degree heat in the summer if I need to.I will work outdoors in the winter when it's zero with snow on the ground and cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey. A while back I asked my mom what was her favorite job. She's retired now and the first thing she said was "I'm glad I don't have to work anymore".She said her best job was working as a clerk in a liquor store. She said "everyone was friendly". This was in a small town and it wasn't like working in a slum or ghetto and getting robbed at gunpoint.I guess my point is many people prefer to work in some kind of job with little or no supervision.^^^^^^
a Smith & Wesson beats four Aces
I guess my point is many people prefer to work in some kind of job with little or no supervision.
I agree wholeheartedly. I will add that sometimes there is a price to pay for that.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
In a sense, I've hung it up.
I closed down my small business and went to work as a carpenter in a window manufacturing facility. It's a good job and I do enjoy it, pay is reasonable and the only ladder in my shop is of the 4' variety. I would describe my position as as a carpenter/ rough cabinet maker. I do get to work with hard woods from time to time such as a corner entertainment center for a flat panel TV. I've got insurance, good benefits, retirement, heat, flat floors, things that my soon to be 50 year old body appreciate. Maybe I just stepped over the fence where the grass is a shade greener.
Saw, part of the minority that does enjoy my job!
"I will add that sometimes there is a price to pay for that. "
there's always a price to pay.
for everything.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
That post makes me know that you and I are a lot more alike than you possibly know. I echoed that sentiment for many, many years. And I don't doubt that you have many, many more happy years in front of you.
The key to surpassing me in longevity in the framing business will be to be diligent about creating an alternative passive income from some other source other than framing. I wouldnt advise Amway, but I would start setting aside a small amount of time on a regular basis in some other endeavor. I know from other past posts that you already have started your retirement fund and that is important too but the passive income stream I'm suggesting will fund your fun in the years before you retire.
The mistake that I made was not starting my education regarding these alternative sources of income till I got very late in my career. It was only in recent years that I was willing to face the realities of my trade/business choice and accepted the fact that I was not going to arrive at where I wanted to be with residential framing business. I always believed that I would be able to turn it around and when I was rolling in the good years, I was more convinced then ever that I was on the right track.
The reality is that the good years don't really even balance out the bad years and the little cashflow created only creates enough cushion for the upcoming slump, which here in MI was usually in the spring and sometimes lasted two or three years. During those times, the builders didnt' have enough work for everyone and it all became a game of musical chairs. Sometimes, when things were slow, I'd already be working in a booming sub. Other times, my builder would be dead in the water but the sub next to us would be flying. It had nothing to do with my carpentry skills or pricing, but everything to do with their product, their financial stability, their desire to take on work at reduced profits or their luck of the draw.
For me, it might be just a regional differnence.
You want to know something that is very ironic? I was partnered up (still have a different partnership with him) with a very competent framer. As we were entering into yet another mini tail off in our local economy, we decided that we'd give Pulte a shot, just to get some understanding if there was any way to make steady money with them. We did one house. It wan't for me. I cannot deal with the corporate mentality of those types of building conglomorates. My partner chose to stay. To this day, he still works steady for them. He is the closest thing to a successful framing contractor I know, but even he has had to accept the dismal pittance that Pulte pays, pay himself a living wage, then split what's left with the crew, "take it or leave it". He always has takers....but I can't honestly say that they are making a living.
I could have had all that LOL! He is their number one framer and he will always get one house after another, if there is one to be built. Last season, he built a lot of models, but not many houses because they weren't selling. I'm sure he's still out there every day but he told me that he makes a heck of a lot more money doing day trading on the internet and would make a lot more if he put more time into it. He would stop framing but he thinks he'd go crazy staring at the computer all day. Like you, he needs to stay active so, he still works as a framing contractor, but he knows theres really not any money in it.
Even back in the early 80's when we were making decent money, we used to laugh and call the money we made as framing contractors our "grocery money". It was a good gig with him. We worked solo, he on one side of the house, me on the other and we'd stand up the houses, without equipment as fast as any crew in the subs. We used to stop and chat to rest our backs and we'd laugh so hard all day that I often went home with my stomach muscles aching. This went on for a few years and we never wanted, nor needed employees. The problem was that he would sometimes leave for Florida or the Caribbean for a couple months in the winter/spring and I'd be out there framing a house alone. If I hired someone, he'd run them off because he had such a sour attitude about employees. He also was going through a divorce and wanted no part of expansion because if he had too much earnings, it was going to cost him in the divorce settlement, so he intentionally limited his earnings. That wasn't good for me, my kids were in high school.
On the other hand, I did my fair share of leaving him alone on the job too. I used to work only till noon every day when I coached at the high school level. We had practice at 2:30 every day and I needed an hour to drive, little time to clean up and eat and hit the field till practice or games were over. My days often didn't end on the field till 8pm. It was fun and carpentry allowed me to do that. I did this for five or six years and for that I'm grateful. I'm contemplating getting back into coaching if I stay here in Au Sable. I'm 90% positive that I will.
Fun story.
blue
"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
last time I sat down and seriously thought about ending it all ...
self employment, that is ...
we added up all the money we owed ...
and reality struck.
No Way I could pay that off ... even the monthly breakdown ...
on any job I could think of as an employee.
kinda laughed ... kinda cried ... realized ... I needed to be self employeed ...
to dig myself outta the debt ... that being self employeed created!
I now try to focus more on "cash flow" ... decided to do more sub work ... less money but more stready ...
and seeing as how I never take my own advice for very long ... I'm now shooting for less sub work and more retail.
there are plusses to sub work ... and there are very definity negatives.
be careful ... everyone's trying to screw a sub.
sooner or later ... sometimes they don't even know it.
Only one real way out ... bust ####.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
It's a crazy reality isn't it Jeff LOL!
Your self employment creates the debt, so more self employment is the only answer LOL! It sound's counterintuitive but the reality is that employment is so limited and self employment has no limits. The key is to find the lid and crash through it. That sounds very hard working alone, without employees or a bevy of good subs. Of course, having the subs takes the guy out of the field, if done right.
Crazy!
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
Mike,
Some parts of Florida have a way all their own. Are you anywhere near Tampa?
Anyway, My father had a Florida license. For more than a few years he had between 2 and 4 framing crews going all the time. Pulte, Bay Homes, Suarez Homes. We were always busy.
My mother and father are both very business savy and no matter how many times they tried they could never crack that retail/remodel market. Don't know why. I do know that in 1980 it was a cut throat market. Can't imagine it got any better.
Only two things I can offer you.
Back then, my fathers license was worth as much to one of the big companies that needed a consultant as his whole business was worth.
Second, What Dustin said.
My very first quarter in business I made $12K net after taxes and grew from there. But when my daughter was sick and all my liquid cash was gone............................... Profitibilty is hard to recover without a little soemthing in the bank behind you.
Maybe not close up shop, just find an alternative sourcce of income for a while to protect what you do have and allow you to reevaluate and reposition.
mike,
i have been thinking for 2 days about how to answer this for you---because I want to present factual information as orderly as possible----and I don't want to pizz anybody off :>)
basically---you need to make a decision----go off to a coffee house, sit down with a pad of paper--------think, take some notes--and drink some coffee.--- It's hard work, I know-----probably take you several hours---but you have to think things through.
ultimately---you will discover-----it's pretty simple. not easy,mind you---but simple. you will be faced with a series of simple questions only YOU can answer-----and you have to answer them honestly---or it's just time wasted.
first question--what do you WANT to do? Ignoring the money for now----which do you want to be---employee-or businessman?--there is NO right answer---only you can decide.
Plenty of folks here have decided,self employment isn't for them----after years of strugggle--and gone and got a job.--If that is the right decision for them, and what they WANT----that's cool. If that's what you decide---- nothing really I can help you with---the decision is made--time to implement it.
but if you decide you would prefer to be self employed--then we can work with you
decision #2----how much money do YOU need?---figure it out---cuzzzz that's gonna be your road map---only YOU can decide.
hopefully you have been keeping records for years--now is the time to go back through them-----they are going to teach you a lot. you need to look at what EXACTLY is paying your bills--what EARNS.-It will probably suprise you.
you may find that the things you like to do, that you want to do, that you are even pretty good at---maybe don't really pay all that well per hour expended on them--especially after figuring in sales efforts, material shopping etc.
you may ALSO find a couple of things----that are pretty good earners/hour----you may not like 'em much---but they earn.
several people have told you similar things--that they were once in similar positions---I think most of us were
ME?????---14 years ago---very similar position---been muddling along doing a variey of things for 4-5 years--never progressing. Every year thinking" next year will be beter--I will get more referalls--things will pick up"---every year same result( BTW---had stay at home wife, 2 small kids, no money---roof a garage today--paint a house next 10 days or so----fix someones porch floor---hand to mouth
but I sat down--and thought it through---what paid--what didn't--what was important to me--what did I need to earn?---made the decision.
within about a year-------both kids in private school--wife in college--still me only earning-----but the decision made.
things were still tight for the next few years what with wife in college and 2 kids in private school-----ya thats 3 tuitions to earn--and believe me-i wasn't earning half what you are earning now!!!!!!!
but I focused---and i weeded out the things that didn't pay--learned to say NO----focused on the things that DID pay---( hey-I didn't particularly WANT to be a roofer---but it was what paid !)
By the time I found BREAKTIME here--maybe 9 years ago-- I had my system pretty well in place--I continue to tweak it-- I ironed some ideas out in discussions with Mike Smith and Sonny Lycos---but basically-when I got here my system was about 85% complete.
basically mike--- I can't do everything--and earn what I want. there are 3-4 things I am good at---and that PAY. there are several others that I rate myself as competent at---but they don't pay---or at least don't pay at my pace.
your willingness to " do it all", i THINK--is shooting you in the foot,long term. you simpoly can't EXCELL at everything-- I don't want to insult you--and it was hard for me to swollow also---but there is a limmit to what we can really excell at and make PAY. Believe me--it has NOTHING to do with talent or skill----go over to the knots forum--check out those guys--incredible talent /a lot of them---but they don't earn a living from it--CAN'T earn a living
what should YOU do?---well--in the short term---you are gonna have to hustle--maybe do some stuff you don't want to---to pay the bills----but in the long term----you have to focus on what pays and what you can excell at. "doing it all"----- in my opinion--traps you--there are PLENTY of guys who can hang vinyl siding, hang kitchen cabinets, drywall a basement, replace doors--whatever. hell ,half the firemen in america are out there competing withyou as a sideline!
My specialty-roofing. hell anybody can do it-------directions right there on the shingle wrapper, right ?
but i CHOSE to focus on one neighborhood--and to deliberately seek out things that were tough and a bit scary--the HARD jobs---cause that's where the money is.
i mentioned when i got here 9 years ago-my system was 85% complete---well I STILL tinker with it. Let me share an idea I blatantly STOLE from somebody here a year or 2 ago.
"Talented Craftsman and Published Expert with 20 years experience in slate,tile,copper,rubber,asphalt shingles,chimney repair and of course carpentry------seeking interesting and challenging roofing and related exterior carpentry repair and restoration projects-------------------"
I run that ad in a neighborhood newspaper across town now------Huge old houses, old money, new money----but old houses. costs me $80/month--------some months i sell nothing from it-----but almost every call is interesting, WORTH the effort, and an opportunity--plus one service call a month---covers the cost.
I do something pretty similar in my church parish bulletin-- i don't sell from it every month---but what I DO sell--is worth it.
mike---- I work mostly solo--and almost exactly 1000 hours a year--year after year after year( I track it)--- if you think that sounds like a lot of free time--it is. but I will let you in on a little secret--I am never OFF-I think about this almost 16 hours a day--7 days a week--52 weeks a year. on vacation??-i carry a notebook to jot down ideas--things I saw-things to research,ideas to investigate.
went for a 15 mile bike ride yesterday morning-and again this morning( temp. below 30------thinking and mentally composing this letter), lifting weights-THIS is what i am thinking about, watching tv?-I am usually reading a work related book at the same time----how to do what I do better?---and for more money?
personally-i can't even imagine life with a paycheck---but YOU have to decide for YOU
Very best wishes--and EVERY possible encouragement,
Stephen
Edited 3/3/2007 4:31 pm ET by Hazlett
Excellent post Steven. I think we all benefited from that.View Image
That was very good i was a union carpenterdoing trim then worked for myself doing carpentry, I was going broke i never got the high end additions, Then i started roofing and had a crew for years, Believe me i earned every dime, I found i made money on the crew which doubled and tripled my income, Not always but a lot, I dont have a crew anymore and just do small jobs and repairs, I got tired chaseing help beating the weather killing myself, Haveing a lic and WC and doing the osha stuff put me under, To many jacks without, Just setting up scaffold was another day they could lose, So im going out slow but honest, however i think a guy could do sideing, frameing roofing given a good crew and the bizness, I never would have made it unless i took a jump back then.
Been real slow for me the last three months, caught myself moping around the house too much so I went and called a bunch of my friends and people who owed me and even all the neighbors.
Have gotten enough work to get by, but barely.
Went and looked at the biggest arbor job I have ever contemplated this morning and pretty much got it just have to write up a bid.
I am with Hazlett on this to a small extent, when its slow you do what you got to do but one should push themself to find a profitable niche and make it a goal to land those type jobs.
My wife has been riding me hard to find a job, but I worked in a factory for 15 years and I just don't want to go back to that life.
The funny thing is one of our neighbors is a widow who my wife has become friends with.She had let her place run down a bit and needed a bunch of work done.I took care of it over the last 2 weeks and charged her about 60% of what I would have normally charged.My wife thanked me and conceeded a little saying that she realizes that things will pickup and that being able to help those in need when the opportunity arises may be a better thing than the dissapointment she had felt earlier.
I will be finished paying my truck note in about 5 months and this should free up my finances a little to start finding jobs that pay better at the risk of turning down work that holds me back.
So my advice to you and myself is to start evaluating all the aspects of what we do and put forth some concrete but achievable goals that should better our situation and then implement them.
Good Luck and keep the posts up as they are helping some of us think our situation thru too.
ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
Stephen, I love your business plan. You have forged something that is right for you and I can tell from your postings that you are loving life.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
btw ...
did I justs ee U on the Holmes on Homes show today?
coulda swore the railing guy was "Oak River" ...
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I may (or not) be worth it to look at the situation as if you were an employee carp. There is surely some building somewhere in your area. It might only be a small niche, but even in the depressed areas of the rural west there are some carps that are making money. If you can get into that niche on your own that's easy, but you may work for the one contractor who is busy as an employee to learn the ins and outs of that niche and develop contacts.
Join a club. Find an organization that attracts people with money, but isn't too far from what you're comfortable with, and just have fun meeting new faces. Even if it isn't fun fake it. People like to hire people they know. Get to know the people with money.
Best of luck
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Well, now. I honestly didn't think this thread would generate this much interest, nor dispute, conflict, teasing, whining condescention (is that even a word?), etc.
But seriously, I don't mind a little post hi-jacking as the exchanges were enlightening from my standpoint.
I do want to say Thank You for each and every reply as I have read EVERY one and each has at least one good point with some having many. It is interesting to hear everyone's perspective on being self-employed.
Reading this makes me want to make it to a Fest one day just to meet some of you guys. Could be a great time!
Mike
The first thing we all have to do is write our congressmen and tell them wev'e had it will all the illegals taking our work.Their not going to stop it unless we fight and not vote for them.The middle and lower class pay thier salaries,so the more of us there are the more they make.
Then you have to talk to all your contractor freinds who are hiring them and selling our country down the river.
Then you you have to boycott all these giant companies importing them for cheap labor like wallmart,buy your coffee from a local deli not a seven-eleven.
Then boycott the big box stores that are stabing you in the back and taking your work and trying to sell it back to you.Like thier not making enough money.If all of us contractors stopped patronizing them they would stop believe me.And for all of you who sub from them or hire them you deserve what you get.
But whatever noone is going to do these things because its to hard to write a letter.They can make more money on illegals.And thier to cheap to spend 10 more for an item at a local lumber yard.So you might as well run for congressman cause he took your job and gave it away so take his.
Mike, I read your original post and most of the responses. Very interesting reading. I have to preface my post with the clear statement: I am an employee AND not is any type of building business. But, I will thake the liberity here to ask a few questions, given the subsequent posts were somewhat off point as the days went by.
1. I know very little about the building business - other than what I read here. I have minimal talent to build/repair and so hire out most jobs.
2. I always consider a balance between quality/costs. However, there is no guarantee that high cost = quality.
That said it is often the case that I have no idea who to hire. I have had individuals work on my home, hired by word-of-mouth, who did such poor work that I actually had to have someone come in and cure the problem(s). Iam usually at a loss then who to hire.
I say all of this because it seems to me that your situation and mine are not mutually exclusive. There must be a way to link those with the talent to those who need the talent.
Just a question - if you have time.
Mike - also
Mike, Hang in there buddy!!! Remember: Tough times dont last but tough guys do.
Take care, Lou