Found a new development in the Richmond Virginia area that we like. Prices are what we can afford, style and size is nice, and most importantly the master BR closet is large and the kitchen has enough cabinets for all our tupperware. I was reasonably impressed with the quality … nothing stood out as cutting corners.
On the handouts that show the floor plans and options vs standard features, there’s an item that says that Tyvek house wrap is an option. I was talking with the sales lady, not the builder, and she seemed intelligent but not construction savvy. (We met a sales lady at another development who was so bad that we decided there’s no way we would buy in her area.) Anyway, i did not ask what was provided as standard if Tyvek was not bought.
So, do you suppose they don’t use housewrap, or they use something besides Tyvek. The Tyvek is an add of $1500 regardless of the house plan.
“When asked if you can do something, tell’em “Why certainly I can”, then get busy and find a way to do it.” T. Roosevelt
Replies
I have often wondered why this move from #15 felt to Tyvek.
They either use felt or they use no weather barrier at all.
They do it that way so they can get about a $700 markup.
Ok guys, educate me a little. For this climate, would you normally build a nice house with no barrier? Would tar paper be a suitable material? The siding is vinyl.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
There is a big chance that the house isn't sheathed with plywood, instead they are probably using Dow board or some other type of foam insulation. Ask what type of sheathing they are using behind the vinyl and ask if they are taping the seams. I bet they aren't....
If you were someplace cold I'd say definitely use Tyvek or something else that is equivalent as an air infiltration barrier. In Virginia you may want a rain barrier, depending on exposure and the sort of siding, but the air infiltration barrier isn't all that necessary.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
Ed, who is the builder?It's not rare to see bare sheathing getting sided in this area. I would never build without it in this climate (or probably any for that matter).
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
This is what I know and what I have seen in the field. I do remodels and restoration in Seattle. Tyvek is a premium product compared to tar paper. It is supposedly a premium product, but a lot of carpenters don't like it for some reason. I read an article about paint not holding on siding. They had to take down all of the siding because someone forgot to back prime all the cedar shingles/bevel siding. So, what happens is, when water gets behind the siding,, the extractives leak out and come in contact with the tyvek and plug up all the little holesthat are supposedly there to provide breathing. In such a situation, the extra benefits afforded by Tyvek are negated. You have all that water behind the siding that is not allowed to escape. But on the other side, tar paper gets moldy and it crumbles, just like dry rot in regular wood framing. When water contacts tar paper, it absorbs the water, and then that little water is allowed to dry out. Bevel siding is recommended to put up with vertical members of wood, on which they nail on the siding. Back primed and preprimed siding does not supposedly leak extractives. I think Tyvekk is a better product, when the precautions are taken, such as back priming, taping the seams.
fast.. tyvek is a minimum underlayment... this being a development, i will assume it has vinyl siding.. so they are PROBABLY saying that if you want an underlament under the vinyl you have to pay extra
BUT... they are wrong... there is no siding meant to be installed without underlayment
myself.. i prefer 15lb. felt ( tarpaper ) to Tyvek or any of the "housewraps"
proerly installed, 15 lb. felt is equal to any housewrap and superior to mostMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
It doesn't matter a lot, as long as a secondary weather barrier is used. That can be tarpaper, Tyvek, Typar, what have you. Code calls for a class A building paper, and there are definitions in the book.
Far more important than the product is the installation. It must be lapped like shingles to shed water. And, windows and doors must be flashed according to ASTM standard E 2112. The absence of E 2112 flashing would be a deal breaker for me. Google it, and you'll get great details.
Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
Thanks Mike & Andy.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I opened up a house this week for an addition in a newer subdivision and it was an option to. This house had no Tyvek or felt. Some had it and some didn't. What's wrong with me? I could ask you the exact same thing.
That just totally blows my mind. I don't doubt you guys, but I just don't get how people can justify building that way.View Image
I just posted in the tavern about my week out of town working. Read it. What a week. Mcmansions everywhere dude.What's wrong with me? I could ask you the exact same thing.
I read it boss. And all I can say is that in my heart I believe there will always be a market for quality. I don't know if that market is big enough for all of us, but it's worth a shot, right? Hey.... we all gotta believe something.View Image
One of the biggest half #### builders around here is Fafard. I was talking with one of the building inspectors earlier in the summer and we were joking about all the half #### stuff they do at a development in town. He said he's had them rebuild parts of roofs, and all kinds of stuctural stuff but if its to code, he can't do much more. He can't believe the crap they do and in that development they get a million to $1.5 per house. He said any of the good sub contractors are either brand new to the biz and take the work as they are starting out (and cheaper prices to get the biz going) or they are complete hacks. He said they use the cheapest subs always, a 25 yr relationship will end if their prices are the slightest bit higher.
The owners always look at the size, and all the bells and whistles but never the structure or caulking, siding quality, fit and finish and all the stuff that matters.
I think people around here are lucky, I think because the market is so competitive, the builders do a much better job. We're also lucky with having building inspectors to catch the really dangerous stuff.
I've built one house in a Fafard development for my old boss. No doubt, Fafard is a big building machine... and as a subcontractor, you are nothing more than a disposable part. Getting paid was a major hassle too, IIRC.View Image
Update: I asked the sales lady if they would use hardiplank rather than vinyl. She didn't think so, because vinyl and/or brick is in the covenants. But she said she would ask the builder when he came back from vacation.
She called today ... no hardieplank cuz they don't have anyone who knows how to install it.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I'd be awfully reluctant to build a house in a neighborhood where the covenants allowed vinyl but not Hardi.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
I'd be awfully reluctant to live in a neighborhood with covenants...Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
I'd be awfully reluctant to live in a neighborhood with covenants...
Then where do you expect the nuns to live?
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. -Albert Einstein
http://www.peteforgovernor.com
That's convents, not covenants, and you can usually tell where they live when you keep seeing the funny hats that match the robes. Oh yeah, and the turtle necks in the summer.Hasn't anyone heard of "Grade D' building paper? We use it. It is a 2 layer tar paper, though different quality from the standard #15 felt.
Don't move to Montana.Seriously, it's weird. If you live in any sort of recent subdivision (recent = 30 years) even with large (5 acre) lots there are covenants.Probably has something to do with the fact that there is no zoning and no building inspections besides septic and electrical outside city limits.
Eddie, why don't you just ask them instead of trying to guess here? If she doesn't know, she can ask the builder. If she can't even do that, well... I would worry a bit about the whole operation...
DG/Builder
I asked here for two reasons:
The answers I will get will not be tied to the sale of the house. People here will feel fre to speak their minds, and will be based on real life experiences.
The sales office is closed until Monday, so I can't ask.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Sounds like when you order the tyvek as an 'upgrade' they just wrap it over the building with windows and doors already installed, which IMOO is still a recipe for leaks at the openings. What do they tell you about how exactly they will detail the wrap?
I bet it's just like Mike says ...
I toured a manufactured house plant a while back ...
really a top notch product ... everything was above industry standards ....
until we got to the siding department.
standard was vinyl ... which ... I have absolutely no problems with ....
and the only upgrade was "site installed hardi" ...
but neither had tyvek or felt.
after some go-around ... they decided they could install house wrap as an option for the "site installed hardi" ... but no one there thot vinyl needed any housewrap of any sort.
I disagree 100%.
decided if we pursued the projects ... even if vinyl was to be the siding ... we'd get a naked house and wrap/side it ourselves.
U need a house wrap ... felt or tyvek.
I prefer felt ... but ... that's secondary to this discussion.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I was reasonably impressed with the quality ... nothing stood out as cutting corners.
Do you expect the model house to be set up in the worst house in the devilment or maybe a house the developers took special care to get it right?
You need to know what kind of water barrier the house they build gets if not tyvek. If they don’t build with a water barrier you need to find how they plan to keep the house from turning into a mold factory for Islam terror cells.
You need to ask what kind of flashing they are going to use on (doors, windows, roof, chimney, side walls and roof, )
You need to ask how they determine what kind of fill how thick it needed to be filled. To get a solid foundation. Next you also need to ask how they know the fill has been compacted to that speck. Ask if you are required to hire independent testing lab to prove that.
Ask about the type of concrete and how that is tested to make sure you get what is contracted. Ask if you are required to hire independent testing lab.
You want how tight the building specs are going to be on the construction is going to be (how square, plumb, level, flat, how tight the joints are and straight to string ). Then
Find out how often you can inspect the house. Not just a walk through, you want to check for how square, plumb, level, flat, how tight the joints are and straight to string it is being built.
If they argue you can’t because of insurance tell them to hire you as consultant for minimum wage and you pay back at the closing. That will kill that argument if the builder is not hiding the quality of his work.
You know you should record all conventions with the sale persons. If you can with out telling them if it is legal in your state.
Speaking of legal make sure YOUR attorney (attorney that makes construction a big part of his practice) not the banks attorney reviews the contracts, warrantees. Then have attorney explain how you deal with problems, the procedures to getting the problem fixed. How to document the problem. Have your attorney draft a lemon buy back clause if your house becomes a (aids patient), a terminal ill kind of house.
Fred ... what planet do you call home?
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Come on Ed, doesnt that sound like the way they do things down here in TX? You should be used to that by now!
I'm still rattling my head around all that!
Doug
the way they do things down here in TX
Sounds like a line from my favorite Ry Cooder song,
"She was guilty, I was dead.
What do you think that old judge said?
That's the way the girls are down here in Texas
Love 'em right or leave 'em alone.
Case dismissed."Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
Sounded like he was watching too many DIY tv shows. Or what was that recent thread ... how to trick the handyman ?
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
That's funny stuff Fred!
I hope to see more of this comedy routine.
blue
I talked with the sales lady this morning. She said tey use black sheathing board normally. So I guess the tyvek upcharge is the only way to get a wrap of any kind.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Yeah, that was the norm here when our house was built, back in '72. The sheathing board (Biltrite?) is sort of like a very thick (1/2"), not very dense tarpaper, and it was adequate (here) from a weather resistance standpoint under hardboard siding. Would be less adequate under vinyl/steel, though, and it provides remarkably little protection from wind intrusion, even when stapled every four inches.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison