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I am a DIY homeowner redoing my kitchen looking for a source somewhere in the free world that I can buy solid surface sheet goods for making a kitchen countertop. All the local (Buffalo, NY) suppliers are telling me I cannot purchase the sheet goods, that only certified fabricators can. Is this true and what kind of scam is this? Any help on a source would be much appreciated.
Thanks
Jeff Telecky
Replies
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Jeff- Unfortunately it is true. The people that fabricate these countertops keep tight wraps on their supplies. I managed to get some material through a friend of a friend of a friend type deal. When it comes to glue ups there's where my problem was. All I could manage to get was a seam repair kit. A two part fast setting epoxy type glue. I managed to get the job done that I needed to do but it wasn't easy without the right stuff. The company's that make the sheet goods claim they can't warranty it they have no control over how its fabricated.
Sorry :(
*It's true but not a scam. It's frustrating but they are protecting the integrity of their product's reputation as well as their profit.
*I think its more about protecting profit than product integrity. I don't see the difference between this and laminates or solid surface wall materials which they will sell me. If I buy raw materials of either of those and do a lousy installation job the manufacturer has no liability. Would be same situation for counter top materials. I still believe it is a price and profit fixing scam. Guess they will just chase me away from their products then. Too bad.Jeff Telecky
*Guess they will just chase me away from their products thenThat may be true - I'vre used granite twice this year where customer first requested solid surfaced - at about the same price!
*Have you done a certifying course? No? Worked in a fabricators shop? No? Then you don't know what's involved. The industry has come a long way from when this stuff was first introduced, as far as techniques and professionalism is concerned. How are the maufacturers supposed to know that if you try it, and screw it up, you'll hang it on yourself instead of bad mouthing the product (which will be out there for everyone to see also). Most warranty problems happen several years down the road; the companies want to know that the fabricator knows what they are doing to minimise the problems.Sure they are trying to protect the profit to some degree, and they all limit the number of fabricators in an area for the same reason. It's a weird world, with a lot of politics, but I think some of the reasons to restrict the supply are good ones.
*Have not been certified or worked in concrete but did my own foundations for my house. Why? So they were done right. When is the last time you saw basements walls get vibrated for a home when they were poured? No cold seams here.Have not been certified or worked as a carpenter but framed and built my own home. Why? So it was done right with no shortcuts right fasteners, et al.Have not been certified or worked by laminate firm and have done that many times. Ditto for floors, cabinets, drywall and corian in my previous home. Your answer defines why academia types are disdained by so many for their pure arrogance.You presume to know what I know or don't know with no knowledge of either.What I do know is to not go around insulting people I don't know anything about. Learned that from my parents.Thanks for the helpJeff TeleckyP.S. I contacted all of the solid surface manufacturers via their web sites and 2 of them gave me the contacts of local distributors that I can buy the sheet goods at.
*i What I do know is to not go around insulting people I don't know anything about.Then you might wanna back off with the "academia" barbs. Twasn't arrogance, nor insult, just answering why you (generally) can't buy Corian or other SS material raw. He's more cabinetmaker (and SS fabricator, as I recall) than perfessor. The college gig (again, as I understand) was more to pay bills during slow work periods. As I see it, his answer came from Cabinetmaker Adrian, not Perfessor Wilson. Don't be so quick to get your dander up.You did concrete, framing, drywall, laminate, etc. yourself. Great. So have I and many other DIYs. Electrical and plumbing too. Now, if you hadn't previously worked them before, how'd you know you did it right? Not trying to inflame, I'm serious. Personally, my knowledge has come from a ton of books, magazines, this and other sites, with some limited work experience thrown in that I can build on. From that knowledge, I typically know The Right Way. What I don't know I research. There's a ton of books on concrete, plumbing, electrical, carpentry, masonry, etc. I can't recall ever seeing books on techniques for working with SS etc. so I wouldn't know The Right Way to work it. I've heard standard woodworking tools can be used, but aside from that, I've not a ton of knowledge on SS methods. I imagine (hope) that if the SS companies play the material so close to the chest, reserving it for Qualified Installers, then they'd hold the methods close to the chest so not just any knucklehead can become Qualified, or the Qualification itself would be just another piece of paper.Now, since you're so concerned about The Right Way, and you've seen that manufacturers have taken pains to ensure the knowledge and training of their installers, why not leverage that investment from the manufacturers? Yes, it might cost more. They're running businesses not charities. Somethings might just be better/easier to sub out.
*Jeff, you hit it right on the head with many points, mainly and foremost price protection. I have taken the certification class offered at the local union school in Chicago years back for $45 and it surely isn't rocket science. If your skilled enough to cut, glue, clamp, route and sand wood, then working with SS is akin. I am not familiar with your location but taking a class to become certified for purchasing purposes, as I did, may prove to be wise. Have you considered (low cost for materials and a great look) the option of concrete? Good luck in whatever you do and keep on keepin' on!
*In addition to the certifcation course some SS manufactures reguire x number of jobs be completed with a previously certified installer. This requirement may have been dropped in the last few years(3-4) since I last hit it as a road block. I have built in excess of 150 laminated top in the past 25+ years. Most all of my material comes from one supplier, and it is the same one that wanted me to give up three possible jobs to a certfied installer.My supplier certinly doesn't seem to be protecting his profit by not selling to me. Is he protecting the other certified installers in my area? I don't think so. I go head to head with them on many laminate jobs and win a few, lose a few. The supplier makes money off of all of us.I think quality control of the finish product is the driver here. Dave
*"Now, if you hadn't previously worked them before, how'd you know you did it right? "There ya go. Pitas comments about how the manufacturers try and make sure the fabricators are up to par....and this is becoming stricter, generally, is worth taking note of. I've seen a lot of botched jobs from people that have all the tools and thought they had all the knowledge; in fact, I thought I knew what I was doing until I took the course (a lot longer and harder than I was expecting, and I had years woking with the stuff under my belt. I found out I'd been doing stuff wrong for years.). It ain't all Saturday mornng TV, half hour and you're done.Pita; I'm teaching because I like it and I have a chance to develop something the way I want to see it, and contribute that way....it's not about paying bills (you should see my paycheque). And I'm still in the trenches too.
*"I think quality control of the finish product is the driver here."So do I.
*And I think Jeff owes u an apology.Jeff,anyone who thinks that he and only he can do it right on all of those things is only fooling himself. There are a lot of good craftsmen out here doing it right. Got any other paranoias you'd like to parade in public while your testosterone is up?
*"Quality control" may be the mystical corporate buzz word taking up space in the back seat, but the old Benjamin has secure control of the drivers seat.
*Wow! I think I may have figured out a way to get more responses to my posts her. Apologies to all offended. My construction eduction has been from the consulting engineering side of the construction business. A long history of construction projects of all trades and a network of contacts that I have either help me with tricks of the trade or provide necessary guidance when requested. Plus a lot of research. Saturday mornings are fishing and hunting shows for me. It is not my point that only I can do it right it is that I will never accept that I can't. Now having said all that, I understand what the vendors are trying to do, for the vendors that won't sell direct what is the difference with this SS countrtop material? They will sell me ther SS wall material but not their countertop material. Doesn't "the rational" apply to both and to many other building materials?If I don't do it myself I don't want it done Jeff.
*I should wait for one of the ladies to ask this but I just can't resist - Who carries your babies, Jeff. Also, when you were younger and when you will be older, who changes the diapers?I can emphacise(sp?) with doing it all and enjoying it but your attitude towards Adrian was out of place. He has forgotten more about SS and cabs than you are ever likely to learn.
*Point taken. Your opinion expressed in the last sentence I would hope that it is true if he does it for a living. Regards Jeff
*peace, and pride
*Interesting 'spitting feathers' thread you started here Jeff. I'm just wondering what you can tell me about dihedral angles? An understanding of dihedral angles is not a skill taught to beginners in the trade, but it is an essential skill all the same for cabinetmakers. *1. So, where do dihedral angles have an application in cabinetmaking, and how do you go about calculating them? Can you give examples? *2. On what occassion would you mitre a wide moulding of a specific profile to a narrower moulding of the same profile so that the profiles meet neatly at the corner, and what is that mitre called? *3. Where would you use a curved mitre, and why? Examples to illustrate your answer would be useful. *4. How do you calculate the required length of an elliptical table top to comfortably accomodate precisely 11 diners? Show your methodology, and discuss interesting features associated with the calculating of elliptical lengths or 'circumference'.*5. Give an early example of mankind using the dovetail in furniture making. How does it differ in form from contemporary examples?Answer these questions correctly, and I would consider you a skilled cabinetmaker. Get two or more of them wrong, and you are just a bumbling hacker.Myself, the only skills I have are as a cabinetmaker. As far as I know, electricity drips out of the ceiling in big globs, plumbing is all just a pile of sh....., carpentry work is for aliens with nail guns, concrete is merely wet sludge full of stones, a roof is put on by lunatics with a death wish, and solid surface materials such as Corian, is plastic stuff that fakes itself up to be marble, or slate, or granite, but somehow feels a bit warm and soft. Feel free to ignore my wee brain teasers, but you never know who might bite when such stuff is posted, and responses might be interesting. I'm not too regular a visitor to this part of Taunton's forums, but who knows what direction this thread might have taken when I nip back in for a look in a few days. ;-) Slainte, RJ.
*bumbling hacker here- I had to look up dihedral angles- don't know what else to say...gb
*Dihedral angle ? That has to be some British english for a right angle or is that a left angle.
*i Answer these questions correctly, and I would consider you a skilled cabinetmaker.I think you'll agree that any chuckle head with enough spare time on their hands could easily research and answer the proposed questions thus hardly making them a "skilled cabinetmaker." While the application and art of crafting a pile of rough material into a thing of beauty is another ball of wax.
*My apologies, Adrian. I thought you were having a slowdown a whiles back, when you took the college gig. Not that you had to "Pay the bills" per se, it's just an expression. Glad to see you took it for more noble purposes, and still doing well.
*I am not taking that bait. I will just keep swimming into the incoming tide.Jeff
*> Get two or more of them wrong, and you are just a bumbling hacker.What are you if you get four and one half wrong? Just off the top of my head I only know the first half of #2. A bumbling hacker squared I suppose...Rich Beckman
*I must be another bumbling hacker that makes a pretty decent living as a carpenter and cabinetmaker. I also believe that the corian and gibralter policy of not selling to anyone not certified is crap. I will not recommend either to customers so I know they lose at least 5 or 6 jobs a year from my recommendations.
*Jeff, I would have to agree with you 100% its more about protecting profits. But you have to admit they do a pretty good job at it so far but I think that will change soon because so many of the new products on the market is geared for the DIY like RTA cabinets, laminate flooring, plastic plumbing, tiling etc. The companies that manufacturer these products have you ever heard them talk about improper installation giving them a bad name. So it comes down to is it better to sell 100 at 50.00 each or 1000 at 10.00 each. By the way what was the name of the 2 companies that would sell direct. Thanks, Roger
*Catholic bishops have curved mitres.Dove tails were often used to soften feather beds.Dihedral Angles was a character in an early Star Trek episode who had a torrid affair with Captain Kirk.Ok, I can't answer two of them, so I'm a bumbling hacker.How much does the moon weigh?
*Your thought is along the same track as mine. I think once the so called "high end" market is tapped, at some time and point, the trickle down effect will occur and these products will be available for the masses to experiment with. In essence the companies will have to supply sheet material void of defects, not an unattainable concept, coupled with favorable wording in the limited warranty. What the DIYer does after the fact is icing on the cake. What can the worst case scenario be for manufacturers? A butched up cut or seam that translates into another trip to HD for a new sheet... Cha-ching. SS's hold out will not be ad infinitum in the name of preservation.
*who's moon?
*I knew two half answers siggyDoes that make me a half ansed hacker? I don't bumble so I couldn't be a hacked up bumbler.I've never been to a funeral for a dead heedral. Did yours die?Loved the wording of your test. A dummy couldn't fake it or research it out. But many good cab makers don't know the high falutin' words - just how to hold the chisel and where to keep the eye.
*Give some parameters for the conditions in which this calculation will occur... in pursuit of accurate results.
*I'd have to say....I don't think I would like you very much. Nope, probably not at all.
*SgianI have posted pictures of my work.I'm sure others here would like to see yours. I for one am easily impressed by what I see.Respectful of your knowledgeCurious about your skillTerry
*Sorry here's my picture
*Good reading material Sgian,thank you.
*I think we could have some thing with this 'protecting the quality of the product' idea!How about if no one was allowed to buy ANY home improvement products unless they could prove that they were competant enough to use them correctly?think about it ...you go into a house to do a job and everthing is straight and plumb and sqaure. You don't ever have to scrape off 6 layers of caulk or plastic roof cement to get to some thing. All the tight wad DIYers would be banned from lumber yards and home depot & lowes would be out of business.Particle board would only be found in a museum .Ooooh Im getting goose bumps just imagining.Mr. T. dreamin'
*Lifted from the late, great, Louis Armstrong - "oh, what a wonderful world."
*b I gave incorrect figures for the length of the axes required in my previous post regarding the elliptical length teaser. In error I provided numbers for the 1/2 length of the axes rather than the full length of the axes. I decided it was clearer to delete the whole of my previous message and replace it with this which is essentially the same as before but with (hopefully) the correct axes lengths plugged in. Sorry about the bad information earlier. Slainte, RJ. i So, where do dihedral angles have an application in cabinetmaking, and how do you go about calculating them? Can you give examples? In simple terms, a dihedral angle is the intersection of two flat planes, so, for example, it's dead simple to calculate the dihedral angle of two pieces of timber that join each other in the same plane to form a right angle; it's 90°, therefore to 'mitre' two pieces to form that right angle cut the end of each at 45°. By definition, when you 'mitre' a part, you cut it at 45°. (Mitre- or US spelling miter) using English precisely means exactly that. However, I posed the question to see who might want to have a go at it, and nobody took the bait, but there are times when an understanding of dihedral angles moves beyond the simplistic. Take, as an example, polyhedra, of which one of the more basic forms is the pyramid, or turned up the other way, a hopper. The pyramid is a simple polyhedran, with just four sides. The illustration below shows how you must view a polyhedran to determine the dihedral angle, but it also shows that even if you determine this, you are left with just half the story, for you also have to know what angle each sides' edge describes to the base line so as to be able to cut the parts to fit. In the case of a pyramid that has sides leaning in from the horizontal at an angle of 60°, the dihedral angle is 104.48°. and the 'true' angle of the side edge of each plane to the baseline is 63.43°. Tilt the saw blade on your table saw to 1/2 of 104.48° = 52.24°, and set the adjustable cross cut fence to 26.57° to successfully mitre this pyramid type structure. To work a butt joint or mechanical joint you need to subtract the dihedral angle from 180°, and work around the appropriate complementary angles to determine the various angles that must be cut, e.g., 180° - 104.48° = 75.52°. i. On what occasion would you mitre a wide moulding of a specific profile to a narrower moulding of the same profile so that the profiles meet neatly at the corner, and what is that mitre called? * There is more than one occasion where this needs to be done. * In furniture, a common example is where a horizontal moulding on the side of the piece meets a raking moulding on the front face. Typically this might be a cornice.* In a building it might be where a raking gable moulding meets a horizontal fascia moulding.It's called a bastard mitre, because it's not a b mitre, i.e., 45°, and commonly referred to as a compound cut.i I Where would you use a curved mitre, and why? Examples to illustrate your answer would be useful. A typical example can be found in cornices of long case clocks and Georgian 'highboys' where a straight moulding meets a curved moulding of the same profile. In trim carpentry work, the most common example would be where an arch is trimmed in a similar manner, which probably explains why the join between such pieces often looks like half-arsed sh*t. The joiners that do this kind of trim work either don't understand the concept, or are pressured by their boss to just rattle the thing together as fast as possible.i How do you calculate the required length of an elliptical table top to comfortably accommodate precisely 11 diners? Show your methodology, and discuss interesting features associated with the calculating of elliptical lengths or 'circumference'. Without detailing the methodology if we allocate a reasonably generous 800 mm per diner to allow for elbow room (~31-1/2") then 800 X 11 people = a perimeter length of 8800 mm ( ~ 28' 10-1/2".) If the short axis (x) is 2500 mm long [98-1/2"] then the long axis (y) needs to be 3200 mm [126"] giving a perimeter length of 8983 mm [~29' 6".] Choose a different short (x) axis of say 2000 mm [~79"] and the long (y) axis needs to be about 4100 mm long, about 161- 1/2" to give a perimeter length of 8765 mm [~28' 9".]What's interesting about elliptical length is that- as far as I know- there is no means of calculating the length precisely even if you know exactly the length of both the x and the y axes. There are different formulae that will result in different results.i Give an early example of mankind using the dovetail in furniture making. How does it differ in form from contemporary examples? This was a trick question thrown in to see who would fall for it. The truth is that the dovetail joint has probably been invented several times. We tend to think of 'western' societies as being pretty much the bees knees, but we only need to take a look at the ancient Japanese, the Chinese, some African civilisations- such as the Zimbabweans- and some of those South American civilisations to realise that we in the west weren't really up to much until about 500 - 600 years ago. The earliest example of the dovetail being used in furniture that I know of comes from the Egyptian pyramids. I don't have a picture to hand to cite, but the Egyptian convention seems to have been the reverse of today where the pin was much wider than the tail.The questions I posed were based on ones I faced many moons ago as a final year trainee sitting my CGLI (City & Guilds of London) exams to qualify as a cabinetmaker. I've no doubt that contributors here, such as Joe Fusco, Ken Drake, and Stan Foster could have endless fun arguing about some of the numbers I've produced, but the figures I gave tend to be good enough for me. And, yes, as Dan mentioned, if you have to spend hours researching the answers, then, by definition, you are probably not a qualified and/or experienced cabinetmaker. The information should be pretty much right there on the tip of your tongue, even if you have to do a bit of research to verify that what you are saying is mostly right. Slainte RJ.
*Terry, That looks a very interestingly complex job, neatly executed. Clicking on a posters' handle or name can be revealing and sometimes leads you to links and connections.Slainte, RJ.
*RJ aka Doctor WoodVery impressive!I will look before I speak.I will look before I speak.I will look before I speak.I will look before I speak.I will look before I speak......500 times, you get the idea.Terry
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I am a DIY homeowner redoing my kitchen looking for a source somewhere in the free world that I can buy solid surface sheet goods for making a kitchen countertop. All the local (Buffalo, NY) suppliers are telling me I cannot purchase the sheet goods, that only certified fabricators can. Is this true and what kind of scam is this? Any help on a source would be much appreciated.
Thanks
Jeff Telecky