I just posted this. The original painter was hired based on the guy being from my county. Not knowing better, I accepted his $1,500 estimate to primer the walls and ceiling before the finished carpenter came in. All I asked for was the primering, and to protect the floor at all cost–and to not apply any type of tape to the floor.
Since the trim was not in yet, this person could have had his crew tape to the bottomost portion of the walls. He was present, and apparently either instructed his crew to tape to the floor, and simply dod not convey the desires of the customer.
During this primering activity, I was working from home in my office on the second floor. I did not realize they would be in & out so quickly. By the time the came looking for payment they have already done a cleanup.
The job was paid, and this crew left. A couple of days later I went down with the finished carpenter to go over his upcoming work and noticed they portions of the floor where the acid-stain was removed. It all looked like where tape had been applied and then removed–along with the acid stain layer.
I called this original painter and he admitted to using regular masking tape and applying it directly to the floor. I asked why he ignored my one requirement and he said it shouldn’t have mattered. I asked about repair, he said he wasn’t responsible. Nice.
Further investigation concluded this guy was use to working for tract-home builders and doing mass production work where protecting the floor was the last thing on their mind. What bothers me is that my market was one of the hardest hit and you would have thought apathy would have been the last thing on this guy’s agenda.
As a result, and in comparison to the second painters, I could never recommend this individual, and he is the company owner, present for the job, etc. I look at this bad experience as having costing me more than the $1,500.
Replies
If I were you I'd be pretty mad at myself for not inspecting the job carefully before paying. You wanted to play GC though... One of the advantages to having ongoing relationships with subcontractors is that you don't have to pay imediately. Friday, or a week from Friday is always OK. I always try and get any "issues" out in the open before they leave site though.
BTW - my trim guys don't like it when I have it primed before trim. It makes it much harder to find the studs to nail into... Not really much advantage to doing it that way.
I am mad with myself. This is why I am not taking legal action. I made the mistake in trusting the white guy from Georgia. I guess the electrician, plumber, framer and drywaller that I had good experiences with in terms of these native Georgians just got be a little too trusting.
It was a lesson learned: trust no one.
I'd take up my issue with the GCIf there was such a delicate floor done early on, the GC would be the one to make sure it was protected throughout the duration of the remodel
Barry E-Remodeler
See my reply to Matt above. I am the GC in that case. And I am mad with myself. Doesn't change the fact that this happened by first the contractor being the way he is, and me not catching that ahead of time.
I figured you wereAnd you are right, it doesn't change the fact that you were responsible for protecting the floor.I've put tape on a lot of surfaces and had no problems. As the painter I wouldn't have had an expectation that putting tape on properly cured acid etched concrete would cause it to pull up
Barry E-Remodeler
Barry, you highlight something I am already considering: a bad job done by the other white guy from Geirgia. :)
And with this in mind, I should take some pictures to better illustrate what the end result was. But, it is still a matter of the painter ignore my explicit instructions. I'm guessing he feared more of pulling the paper off of the drywall because he wasn't using painter's tape.
He could have voiced his concerns, but he didn't. He simply chose to ignore me, not acknowledging he was going to ignore me, and then after acknowledging (after the job was paid for and upon being confronted) admitted to ignoring me.
Sorry, that isn't a contractor I'd ever consider using again, or recommending. He doesn't care what you want, but what he wants. For that, let him continue working for builders in tract communities where he can run his business the way a lazy builder would allow him to.
Isn't the saying something like trust everyone the first time but watch your back constantly...
Probably the painter haden't worked around stained concrete before. Heck, I've never worked stained concrete before. I'm surprized it would come off that easy - unless maybe it wasn't cured yet....
The shiddy thing is that the guy won't do anything about it.
I inquired about haven worked around acid stain floors and he said he had (probably lied). I certainly wasn't looking for a tract-painter, but rather someone with experience working in finished spaces.
A Ronald Reagan version is "...Trust...but verify."
DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
That saying fits perfectly...
Hyjack alert!!!!
Don:
Take a look at the attached pic and tell me what you would do with it. Got any pics?
BTW - if you don't have high speed and need a smaller pic let me know...
View ImageView Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Thanks bud...
so... what was the issue with that picture?View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
We would like to obsure the glass somehow. Look at Don's signature above on the .5 post. I was looking for some ideas from him. I've seen that stick on film stuff but one issue with that is that one of our dogs jumps on the windows (with his claws) when someone comes to the door so the stick on stuff wouldn't hold up. If we had mega $$$ we would go with stained and/or beveled glass....
sandblast? does that work on tempered glass?View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Go to a craft store and get some sodium fluoride. Nasty stuff but you can frost glass in no time with it.
Thanks. That's a start... Whating to hear form the glass master though..... Like to put some style in if we can....
1. Get the stick on stuff.
2. Call Cesar Millan
"trusting the white guy from Georgia"What is the implication of this statement?
He shoulda trusted the black, or Mexican guy?
Why even put a color in that statement?
The doctor is hunting.
No not huntingI guess I shouldn't have brought it up in this postIt just hit me kinda wrongSorry
ha yeah, I figure it was just a bit of sarcasm aimed inward since he was on a rant and kicking himself.
We do have to be careful with any references to race when typing since it is so easy to seemingly say something and have it received differently from what was intended.
Cheers
If you guys had read a lot of Nuke's posts you would know he doesn't care for southern people. So, I think you may have taken note of the wrong adjective.
another deal. if you using acid stain, it must be concrete. tape will not pull up a proper acid stain job because the stain is embedded in the concrete.
That is what I thought too.This week the excavator fianally showed up. We are tiering our a side yard on a hill trying to control erosion. Well they started digging and I said your going to deep to fast.We they got a little snippy. The GC said 4 foot run 1 foot rise. so he tries to tell be a 4 foot run is from the front of one step to the back of the next step. I explained since high school a four foot run is measured from front to front. Well they just kept digging and ran into the garage 52 feet up the hill and had 40 inches to get the last step in. Tried to get hold of GC but could not. They left the spoil pile about 60 feet from were it was supposed to be dropped. Said it was to far. and left.
GC shows up the next day and was mildly annoyed but I said they just doubled the material and my unpaid labor.Now I'm mad at my self and the dirt digger.
He should realize his limitations! He should have hired a reputable contractor to complete his job. He blows his own intelligence horn and his destain for his neighbors, but still lives in an overpriced tract house in Gwinnett County Georgia. He should have flown in a professional! In Georgia we don't worry about craftsmanship, we are all well aware some high brow Yankee we come down and pay 10 fold to be able to tell us how it should have been done.
In his defense, I have seen house construction in Gwinnett county. The standards are lower than many other areas.
The best painter I've ever worked with is a Columbian guy. Amazing work. I wish that my trim work was always painted by an artist like that. I've known 3 white guys that were also very good painters, but one of them was a "furner" too (Wales).
The implication tis that I was wrong in assuming just because someone is a native and citizen of the USA that they could be trusted. I was better off asking the mob for a good worker. LOL
If you don't like the South, why don't you get the heck out of it? We got plenty of yankee azzholes down here already.
Sounds like you are a pee poor GC and hate it for yourself.
No, I am a consumer that hired someone that claimed to operate a painting business that including residential painting.
I guess you felt the way he operated was sufficient for you to have him come into your home and be as irresponsible as he was in my home. Glad your expectations in the same park as his.
You the GC, why don't you watch your subs? Thats what a GC does.
I would guess the first thing he did before starting with the paint was put tape on the floor. Would have took 2 minutes to stop it.
Probably your contempt for Southerners shows enough that he just didn't care. I've never understood why uyou yankees move down here and spend the rest of your life complaining about "how it is down here". GO BACK. There's to many of you here already.
I've never had a sub on this house, thats why. I don't have time to watch them.
We prime and paint the drywall before any trim goes in. It happens as soon as the drywall finishing is done. No need to cut in the walls around all the trim. Any roller stipple is 100% consistent and doesn't change around the doors, windows, base, etc. Not sure why the OP wanted primer only, I would have painted it too. Last time I saw a painter using regular white masking tape was about 800 years ago, all I see is blue.
we prime the walls also usually with a hi build primer which dicates it should go on before trim. if the trim carpenters can't find studs they have a bigger problemUnless the wood comes prefinished..painting walls before trim is a huge waste of time. but some areas of the country still persist. go figureAnd the old standard tape still is used and has a place. don't think the floor would have been one of them
Barry E-Remodeler
You using stained trim or painted?
I usually don't read your posts anymore because of my past complaints with you being a constant whiner about anything and everything. Then this morning I happened to open the painting thread and read it. I thought to myself "maybe he has turned a new leaf, work done, no trauma and drama, good post".
But lo and behold here we are again. A self created mess and whine upon whine. And what is the deal with the "white southern" description of the crew? DanT
Dan, I do not make it a point to cover up the experiences that are bad or good. I had one painter that was good, posted about it, and one that was good, and posted about it.
Have a problem, leave.
"Have a problem, leave."
Nope. I don't have to and you certainly can't make me. DanT
When I GC projects and must bring in new subs, I always plan to be there for the duration of their work.
I want to see who their employees are, how efficiently they perform their intended tasks, how they think through issues that might arise, and what equipments/capabilities they've got that I might have been unaware of. I like to talk to the sub supervisors each day before they leave and go over the work performed. Most importantly, I don't pay until the client has had a chance to inspect. It seems to carry a bit more impact when you inform the sub that the client isn't happy with the work (subs usually care less if the GC's not happy).
Just the other day, I had to spend a whole day sitting in the sun just to watch a new concrete crew pour a slab. It was boring and I could've been doing other work elsewhere but then I wouldn't know anything about their operation.
Just part of the job (it's why you get paid the big bucks)
DC
How many consumers hire a general contractor to have a room painted? No one. They simply hire a company to come in and do the work. The basement was no different in this respect. I hadn't realized I was hiring a commercial painter set in painting the way unfinished properties were treated (with disdain).
I thought, as a consumer, I was hiring a painter to come into my home and handle some painting and could take some simple requirements and follow them. Wrong!
As homeowner hiring trades, you are the acting general contractor; being so, you should've been more watchful of whom you hired. If you are in the habit of hiring guys then walking away, then blindly paying them; I am afraid you will need to get used to being screwed over.DC
Now you see why it can be difficult to be GC on any job, especially one where things aren't 100% conventional. We do custom work, and there is always something unusual. Communicating that effectively, to the point where it is understood, remembered and executed properly, can be pretty difficult--as you found out.
Yes, he should have followed your one simple request. But he saw a way to save some time (and what does the ignorant homeowner/carpenter/supervisor/architect know anyway?).
I even have trouble getting our own carpenters to do things that are unusual. We can discuss a certain way to do things for an hour, then I leave and they decide they have a better idea. Sometimes they do, but often it's not what I wanted. I keep reminding myself that if it's not drawn it won't get built. Words are all but useless in communicating construction requirements. Written words might have been enough in your case though.
and to protect the floor at all cost
Then the GC on the job should have put some Masonite down around the perimeter, at least. Taped all the seams, then there would be no problems.
It's only around $10 a sheet....
I would have thought drop cloths, or Masonite as you suggested, would have been an investment. I guess that wasn't something common in this contractor's book of business.
Sometimes that investment has to be made.
If you had told me about protecting the floor "at all costs", then one of two things would have happened:
(1) You would have paid for and applied the Masonite and absolved me of any potential damage issues -or-
(2) I would have applied proper floor protection, and adjusted the price accordingly.
In either case, before and after pictures would be taken. We would have walked the job, noting any deficiencies... of course, this time would be in the pricing.
I have read several of your posts here on this forum, and the one common theme is that you have not learned to follow up on the people you choose to work for you in your home. Shoddy contractors come in all colors and accents... some even have long standing "good reputations".
If you continue to have lofty expectations or requirements for the work performed, you must keep an eye on the work being done.
Now, in this case, blue tape should be a given. Yet, I have seen blue tape peel paint... but it probably wouldn't peel drywall paper.
The guy that actually did the painting was probably working on a flat rate from his boss or maybe even a sub, and the only concern of his was to get in and out quickly. Unfortunately, that's how the game is played in an environment where customers are shopping for price and not quality or providing a list of job specifications for bid. Good for him, not good for you.
Check a place like Craigslist and note the wide variance of pricing for painting and many other skilled trade jobs. How do you know what you are getting? You don't. Yet, why do people continue to gravitate towards the low price and then complain? Baffling, I tell ya.
I would suggest making a list of job requirements next time. Sure, some guys will laugh and walk... but someone will do the job to your expectations if you are willing to pay for it.
Edited 8/9/2009 8:40 am ET by danski0224
I am surprised that as a professional painter it even needs to be said. If I am working in someone's home I would expect to proetct their environment instead of be blase about it. But I was explicit, my requirement was acknowledged by the owner of the company who was present, and that is the problem.
I honestly feel he was looking at this as a one-time thing. He couldn't of expected me to hire him again for the actual paint job after standing there watching as his employees treated the environment (my home) in such a careless manner.
I guess if you could find out if the person that did the painting was an employee or a subcontractor that might help explain things. The "boss" could promise the world to you and make his 1099 sub eat the costs... or get it done quickly.
How did you get this guys number? Referral, dart on the web?
You screwd up twice: if the floor finsh was so important and delicate, you should have put down the protection yourself. And you paid before inspecting the job.
You get what you inspect, not what you expect.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
First, I offered to go out and buy a bunch aof drop cloths. He said it wouldn't be necessary as that was his job.
Second, it was a matter of trust. I already admitted to making that mistake.
Nuke,
Sorry to hear about your troubles, but.....I think the bigger issue here is if tape pulled up your " acid stain finish'' then it sounds like you don't have acid stain finish after all.
I have done a couple of acid stain jobs and I promise you , ain't no tape gonna pull that finish up. It is basically in the concrete. You have to neutralize the floor with baking soda and water after you put the stuff on and scrub and shop vac all that slop up. Then it gets several coats of sealer. The sealer we have used, you would not be able to stay in the house for a day or two due to the strong smell.( oil based, but they do make a water base.)
My guess is you got a topical concrete stain like they sell at home depot. IMHO not even close to the same product. Much cheaper and much less work to put on. It actually is more like a thin paint. It is very ,very, important to have a clean slab for this.
I have never seen one that did not start flaking off with much foot traffic.If I were hired to put one of these stains on I would explain to the H.O. that the warranty was up when my taillights got out of sight.
I would be contacting the guy that put the "acid stain" on to get his take.
By the way, if you don't mind me asking what did the stain job cost per square foot. That in itself can be a good indication of what ya got.
Again, sorry for your troubles, but ain't no tape pulling up acid stain
dug
True, there is suspcion behind the flooring being done effectively. Yet, that should not negate the fact that the painter ignore the one thing I asked for.
Unfortunately, I do not know anyone personally that has done acid-staining of concrete floors to be able to determine the net situation. I only know that the painter chose to use regular masking tape on a floor that I told him not to do.
Just curious...
You said: >> The sealer we have used, you would not be able to stay in the house for a day or two due to the strong smell.( oil based, but they do make a water base.) <<
Was that by chance QC Solvent Seal? I have used that on stamped concrete and the fumes are pretty bad. Smells like lacquer thinner. Makes a nice seal though...
I've used this http://www.sherwin-williams.com/do_it_yourself/staining/concrete_stain/ on a job. It's sold as concrete stain, and requires acid etching, but it's not the penetrating stain that most people think of. It does flake off--at least it did for us, and we were careful with the preparation.
I wanted to say something here, but realized I couldn't overstate the obvious any better than its already been done! Wish you the best on your project, and hope things go well for you. Continue to post pictures as it progresses.
By the way, some contractors still care - that's what I find amazing!