ok
Ill admit, this is sour grapes
Im in a podunk little town
good construction people, if lucky, can charge 36-42 an hour
big difference, but that is the range, I know, I know, I bid the jobs, I know
so how can the average sparky charge 80 an hour and the plumbers charge 65 an hour
yes …………they went to school
guess what, me and my guys went to school too !!!!!
the school of hard knocks, ……….. for years. a bunch of years big time…..
and we , if we tried , cant pull that kind of chings and blings
yet with “employees” this is a battle I face
experienced guys, years of experience
wanting the good life, the chings and blings
and lucky to pull half of what a first year sparky pull
and half would be big time
just wondering, and wondering is a nice word for a word that starts “bitc*in”
not meaning to offend the sparkies and flushers
but hey,, give US a break, the nearest thing you know about building is a sawzall, and we got to go fix what you did with that sawzall
ok
Im done complaining for now
Replies
by the way guys
I am known as a pain in the butt
and you know what
this aint broke back mountain, but let the answers fly to my first post on this
it aint gonna hurt
( I havent seen the movie, dont want too, things that make you say, nooooooooo !!!)
Edited 4/17/2006 10:57 pm ET by Isamemon
You want a sarcastic reply or reality.
Do you look to the government for an entitlement, or to GOD for empowerment. BDW
Ive wondered about this for years, tell somebody you charge $50.00 an hour and they flip! but they wont hesitate to call an electrician or plumber and pay $75 an hour.Now i know my insurance is probably cheaper (for the plumber i use i know this to be fact) But i still have all the overhead and maybe more than alot of them.
I think alot of the problem is they have the "aprenticship programs" and schooling, dont get me wrong this is probably a good thing but it is just to easy for somebody to get a saw and a hammer and call themselves a building contractor. You rarely catch somebody with a torch a solder calling themselves a plumber or someone with an electrical tester calling themselves an electrician! (atleast around here)
Ive learned alot reading this board with so many great contractors from different back grounds and different views on business. But probably the biggest thing ive learned from this board is
Dont be afraid to charge what your worth-sell the yourself and your business not the price.
One thing i learned from a very good friend of mine-never be afraid to make money! I know this one sounds strange but for me atleast sometimes i was just to afraid to charge what i should, and maybe i still am (a little) but i am working on it.
O' and give solid bids, dont tell em you carge ? an hour tell em this is what its going to cost you to have me do the work.
a. In general, Clients are afraid of electrical and working witha torch.
b. Clients don't like working with materials that have seen bare butts.
c. Clients don't usually have electrical and plumbing tools, but everyone has a hammer, a putty knife and a paint brush.
d. Clients beleive insurance companies won't honor an insurance claim if the damage was caused by wonrk performed by someone who wasn't licensed.
e. Most electricians and plumbers charge similar (high) rates while jack of all trades/ entry level GCs are willing to lowball ust to get work.
f. E and Ps were brought up through an apprentice program and therefore if they decide to hang up their own shingle they have probably learned that their skill is a job and not a hobby.
Now I get to use my new colorful signature!
Frankie
There he goes—one of God's own prototypes—a high powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live and too rare to die.
—Hunter S. Thompson
from Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas
I don't mind paying capable Electricians and Plumbers a decent rate (There are some hacks among them, like any other trade).
But it's been largely because of those two trades that, several years ago, I had to put a "Cleanup-after-yourself" clause in my Sub contract. By and large, plumbers and electricans are the worst and have an apparent allergy to brooms, dustpans, shop vacs and the like and are oblivious to the aftermath of their work; wire trimmings in ungrouted tile work, wood auger chips in stud cavities, empty fixture boxes and packing scattered around, off cuts of pipe, etc.....sheesh!
Even the drywallers and insulators clean up after themselves without prodding (and always have.
Prima Donnas are of no value on a construction site.
Last time I griped about a sparky not cleaning up, he said he'd be happy to do it, but the rate's the same. In the meantime, there's a $14/hour guy who can cleanup just as quickly. Oh yeah, that was me!
I hear you & also appreciate it if I luck into someone who cleans up after themselves. In my former career as a service tech. for a US machine tool co. my employer charged well for my time ($60.00 US per hour: 15 yrs ago); the last I heard the going rate was up to $130.00/hr. I didn't think of myself as Prima Donna, but probably was.
I can remember thinking that at such a high hourly rate it was wrong for me to waste someone's nickle doing such an unskilled job that they could do themselves. I soon got over the concern and just did the pre. & post cleanups myself & wrote out the bill for the total time.
As I got older (& wiser?) I would often ask a customer right at the get go if they could spare me a helper to clean down a machine before I opened it up, pointing out that the job would go faster & they could give me their least valuable employee. More often than not I would get a helper (sometimes several!) for cleanups once the monetary implications had a chance to filter in. If not, I wasn't (and still aren't) shy about getting my hands dirty and would do the entire job.
Perhaps my early thinking might explain why some trades don't do their own cleanups. Giving them the benefit of the doubt, perhaps they feel guilty (as I did) about charging Champagne prices for Beer sevices.
Supply and demand, mostly. Would be interesting to study rates vs licensing requirements in the various states/localities.
In my state, electricians and plumbers need to be licensed - BTW - you left out HVAC. Actually, that just means that someone in the company needs to be licensed and the other's are supposedly working under his supervision. Maybe that has some effect on wages. Also, around here electrician and plumber helpers get - + $10 an hr - not exactly a great wage. Elect & plumbers can get a journeyman's card by working a certain number of hours and taking a test. Not sure about HVAC guys.
Here, guys like you need a GC license to do projects over $30k - I think it is... The test for that is as much business/contracting law as it is "technical" stuff.
To take the plumbing or the electrician test, you have to have a licensed elect or plumber sign off that you have worked for him a certain number of hours - like maybe five or ten thousand. Not a trivial amount of time.
Not sure how it is in your state, and I'm not saying it's fair but maybe these things effect the wages...
Here is another thought....
Does a specialized doctor charge/make more than a general practitioner?
Does a transmission mechanic make more than a regular mechanic?
I don't specifically know the answer to these questions but I have definite suspicions.
I think along the lines of what DanH says. Just chalk it up to supply and demand.
HOs get leaflets in their mailbox from guys starting out who don't know better than to give away their labor. I think I get some type of leaflet or flyer in my own mailbox at least once if not twice a week. From a HO point of view, guys who can build grow on trees like apples.
Don't ever recall seeing a leaflet from a sparky or geiser.
(decided if electricians are sparkys, plumbers should be geisers). ;-)
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
I'm in a podunk town, too. And I have no problem with any trade charging what they can get. Around here plumbers can get it, electricians; not so much. It's a supply and demand thing.
The typical wait for a plumber for a decent size job is 3-4 months. I'm renovating a duplex and have to re-plumb and re-wire the entire building. Got one of the better local plumbers lined up to do it; just a few of the fiascos...
- Stacked their toolboxes on the newly installed kitchen counters, of course, after they had removed the protective cardboard from the counters.
- Turned the heat up to 80+ and never turned it down when they left for the day - and almost every day during the 2 weeks they were on site they left one of the doors or windows open after they left for the day. I burned thru 180+ gallons of heating oil during that stretch.
- They came back to pick up all the scrap copper (without permission) and left a pile of trash from another job - I guess to make room in their truck for the scrap copper.
- Never picked-up a broom during their time on the job, in fact other than removing the scrap copper they left everything else on the floor; old iron pipe, pvc, trash, food scraps...
A call into the shop owner elicited a 'boys will be boys' kind of answer. If I wanted him to get a different guy in to finish it would take another few weeks...and this is from one of the more reputable shops. I've never had these issues with any other trade. Frustrating.
-Norm
Think one of the big factors is what Frankie said .... Clients are afraid of electrical
Worked with literally hundreds of electrical engineers, in early 70's (till now even)ended up doing most the high voltage (100 kilovolts and up) work 'cause I was the only one to dumb to not be scared of it?
Well in a purely business sense, I wouldn't trade my small building business for the same sized electrical or plumbing business. I only need a couple customers some years to stay busy, those guys are running all over town to fill out their week. I think this would lead to far more down time, or at least time spent on tasks like supervising employees, bidding jobs, coordinating with other trades.
All in all, I'd say plumbing and electrical contractors have pretty high overhead because of the need for so many customers.
I read an article in Reader's Digest several years ago called "Recognizing the Millionaire Next Door". They gave examples of businesses that often lead to millionaire type wealth - HVAC and plumbing contractors were on that list. Tipi, Tipi, Tipi!
http://www.asmallwoodworkingcompany.com
Frankie may have nailed the gist of it; once again, 'perception is everything.'
Plumbing, HVAC, electrical, even trim work, that can look terribly complicated to the "lay" person. But, shoot [hitch up britches] e'er'body k'n swing a hammer, [scratch something] ain't no smartz i'at . . .
On-call, after-hours plumber can get $200/hr 'round here. Try and get $75/hr for carpentry work, even after hail or wind damage.
'Bout like bein' an archy, too. Why, e'erybody's cousin's sister's aunt's brother's neighbor's nephew's kid down the street has "taken some draftin'" in school--and tha's all y'needs't know, y'know?
An' them places in the magazines, shoot, they'll do ya a set a'plans f'r nuttin--them architex is nutz, cahrging tha' much!
There are few carpentry problems that will keep you from using the crapper.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
I do basic maintenance on my vehicles. I keep the oil and fluids changed/topped up, rotate tires and buy new when needed, and I change the disc brade pads my self. other than that, they car is on it's own. DW thinks they need lots of TLC.
So, her 2000 Honda Civic, which just turned 40k miles, went to the dealer shop last week. I was out of town and she didn't ask my opinion. I get back and see the bill:
The service writer writes: "concern about leaking fluids". Theree's not a spot in the driveway, but he convinces her to have the oil pan gasket replaced cuz it's leaking. The labor was $190.
The battery cable was a little bad, and the battery was original, so he sells her now ones of each. $35 for the cable $90 for the battery, which is a little high, and $114 for labor. Dang. Costco will instyall the battery for free.
Of course, changing the battery wiped out all the radio pre-sets. But when she got in the car, she discovered all the stations were re-set to Tejano music. I suspect the kid did the battery first, then set the stations and used her car as a giant boom box while he did the rest of the work, but she said to forget it and nopt call the service manager and complain. No, we can't prove they did that, but we do know somebody spent enough time to program 6 buttons on the radio.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I cannot imagine my wife taking her car into anyplace for maintenance, but she does like to have a 2nd car available for when I'm out of town if she leaves the lights on or something.
human nature, i have notice you could sell something for aa dollar. lets say a 16 oz saoda or what we call Coke for a dollar, nobody buys.But then but up a sign saying 2 coke for three dollars, ' what a bargain" people buy like crazy. They think there getting a bargainSo if you want to bid at $95 a hour, then do it. Just make them think there getting a bargain. How? insured and bonded
clean truck
signs, business cards, maybe a calender handout
clen shaving, short hait, no tatoos , no earing My boss alway said, To charge a high price you must act like the person that pay the high price, be one of them.That would be the middle age white guy with the BMW, clean shaving, private school kid, church going, tennis club.Have you ever notice how the lawn care super always had the alligator shirts, fancy sunglass with the funny hat. one of them.
I am replying before reading the rest of the thread.
I totally agree!!
It's been pissing me off for years.
My plumber steps in with a sawzall and right angle drill, some glue, and maybe a shovel and charges twice my going rate.
I have 200 times the tools, ( including duplicates of his - and supply him mine if his break , to get the job completed ), an entire shop, all of the insurance, am the first person that someone calls if there is the smallest of issue, do the same service work for all my good customers as customer service, and, to top it off, when he's too busy - he'll pull the permit for me and tell me to go ahead and do the work and call for the inspect!
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
LOL.
As for tools, depends on the size of the shop. I'll match the shop I work for against your shop. Got any grooving machines? AC pipe lathes? We even have tablesaws. Even have some whale oil candles tucked away for doing lead joints.
I've got about 3,000 worth of tools just to check furnaces in my van alone.
We've got about 25 guys working. Bet our overhead alone is more than some guys gross income.
Does anybody really think plumbers or electricians are raking it in?
Our electrician doesn't seem to be better off than any carpenter at the same level of skill. Our plumber does pretty well but he's got about 10 employees. He's not really a plumber, he's a businessman running a plumbing business.
If the sparkies make twice what you make, why not go to night school to learn how to twist wires? Sure, it might take 5 years but for 2x the money, wouldn't it be worth it?
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
wouldn't it be worth it?
I dunno. After being on the carpentry side, if you suddenly were a plumber or electrician could you hack up a floor joist with a sawzall and not have guilty feelings?
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Well, maybe.Since you brought it up, I wonder why some carpenters get so worked up over people cutting up their framing but don't take the time to plan in advance.Granted, some MEP guys couldn't care less about plotting a non-damaging path, but I would bet that there are a good amount that would rather not drill huge holes if they didn't have to.But hey, what do I know?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon, when a pipe or duct is in the way of one of our studs, should we just indiscriminantly hack the pipe and put the stud through?
The beef is with the hackers who hack through parts that cant be repaired, instead of getting them moved first. They believe that they are so important, that they don't have to co-operate with anone else on the jobsite.
Then, there are the plumbers who knock out all the firestopping in the tubs because it's faster than drilling the holes. Later, the inspector red tags the job because the firestopping isn't properly installed. It takes a service trip by a lowly carpenter to fix, what was already done to perfection. I've had to warn several plumbers that if I ever have to come back for a repair like this, that they'd be getting their diverters cut out.
blue
The beef is with the hackers who hack through parts that cant be repaired, instead of getting them moved first. They believe that they are so important, that they don't have to co-operate with anone else on the jobsite.
Two words. Back charge.
If the plumber fusses, pull out Sections P2603.1 and P2603.2 of IRC 2003 (assuming it applies, likely similar section in your plumbing code if it doesn't). Plumber is not permitted to just hack away at framing. Ask the plumber who does if he works to code.
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
Blue,
I guess you didn't read my post.
Granted, some MEP guys couldn't care less about plotting a non-damaging path, but I would bet that there are a good amount that would rather not drill huge holes if they didn't have to.
Hacks are hacks, but I've found that a lot of times you can offer a path of less resistance and it will be utilized.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Isamemon, it's all about licensing and the restrictioin of competition because of that licensing.
Only the inspectors should be required to be licensed. All work should be inspected and if a high school kid was good enough to plumb a house and pass the inspection, it should be legal.
blue
Re ..."all about licensing and the restrictioin of competition because of that licensing."It isn't restraint or restriction of competition. Simple and easy process. All you need to take the test is acquire 4000 contact hours. Which works out to be about two years working under a master electrician. You can work as a helper. In lieu of 4000 hours you can take a three to nine month community college prep course and it is either waived or limited to 1000 or fewer hours contact. Depends on the length and type of course and if the course work includes hands-on training.Once the contact hours are certified you produce $400 to pay for the testing and take a six hour Block exam. Some courses pay all or some of the testing cost for your first shot. Score well and your a licensed journeyman. You can do electrical work for money. Nothing to it. The process is open for anyone. Regardless of race, color, creed or country of origin. Easy as 1,2,3. How could that be seen as restricting anyone?
>>"In lieu of 4000 hours you can take a three to nine month community college prep course and it is either waived or limited to 1000 or fewer hours contact. Depends on the length and type of course and if the course work includes hands-on training.
4Lorn1, if that's how it works where you are, I have no problem with that. Actually sounds pretty fair and reasonable.
Where I am, the apprenticeship is measured in years. Nothing but naked protectionism to keep the herd numbers low and supply cheap labor to the existing licensees.
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
It works like that here too.
Takes YEARS to qualify even if you can prove an exceptional knowledge of the subject and pass any test they throw at you today - after five+- years of working at damn near high school helpers wages you can think about applying.
It sounds like 4lorn's area has the right idea.
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
.1
Isamemon, it's all about licensing and the restrictioin of competition because of that licensing
Come on Blue, you know better than that. You have been in the trades long enough to know when to tell someone to hire an engineer. Granted you have had a fix some of their work too and know how to solve many of the problems you might encounter, but you can't stamp a print when the BI says it needs a PE's stamp.
Does that mean that your trade is being restricted? Or should all BIs be engineers that check everyone's work from the footing through turn key?
Plumbers, electricians, and HVAC guys are licensed trades in most states because what they do, or don't do right, has hurt people, in some case fatally.
Someone guessed that it take 5K hrs of apprenticeship to become a plumber or electrician. Fairly accurate. 1000 hrs. as a helper (step and fetch it), 2000 hrs. as an apprentice (now you know what it is-hold the dumb end), and 2000 hrs. at the journeyman level just to become qualified to take the test to get your license. Then if you are fortunate enough to work on the commercial side of your trade, you may get as much as $18 to $25 per hour from your employer (the guy with the masters and/or contractors license). If you are in the residential end of the buiseness, your wages drop accordingly to less that $20/hr.
I gotta go now, but you get my point? It is not restricting competition, it is about public safety. Hacks can kill people in any trade, but those three have proven to be better at it than most carpenters. That is why they are tested to get a licenses.
Your turn...... whiz away.
Dave
Public Safety? Isn't that what inspections are for? In my state, in order to legally add on one lousy circuit with some outlets and lights in an addition, you practically need to be qualified and licensed to be able to wire a skyscraper from scratch. I'm sorry, but basic residential wiring is just not that complicated. The analogy to paying a structural engineer for some things is a flawed one. There are many "engineering" things I am able to do myself regularly, such as sizing headers, determining rafter sizes, figuring out floor joist spacing, etc. When I am presented with a problem that is out of my league, I hire a structural engineer and pay him (or her) very well. I have no such ability with either electrical or plumbing. I am forced to pay someone else anywhere from $80 to $120 and hour to things I am entirely capable of doing (and have done). And it's not just the direct payment either. It's the additional cost of scheduling my work flow around having electrical and plumbing work done in blocks by another contractor. There are times (especially when changing existing wiring or plumbing) when it would be so much more efficient to be able to do some of the work as we go. I have no problem paying other people to do things that require a level of expertise that I don't have, or that they can do more efficiently and cost effectively than I can. IMHO there should be a separate license available for basic electrical and plumbing tasks that are encountered regularly in remodeling. If you can take the test for this license and pass, it shouldn't matter how many hours of field time or class time you have. All the work is going to be inspected anyway, right?
I agree.
A remodeling liscence would be just perfect for around here.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
>>"Your turn...... whiz away.
I hear the public safety song all the time to the point where know it by heart.
Come on Dave, the real issue has a dollar sign in front of it. I have no problem with tradesmen advocating for their business interests. Politicians who cow to that pizz me off. Our building dept. has historically been just one big old boys network and change comes slow.
Here's an example where the even the plumber's union had a tough time to make up some BS reason about public safety. The first story also talks about the goings on at our convention center and how the unions almost chased a TV show out of town. In almost every case, the Mayor has to step in to work a compromise. If you're not hooked in to the Mayor's office (can you say "campaign contributions"), you lose. This might sound like a rant, but it's not. It really does actually work that way. I live here and the stories below are not some liberal propaganda (I'm no liberal, trust me). Hard to believe but it's all true.
http://www.uswaternews.com/archives/arcconserv/6philplum4.html
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2006/03/30/philly_plumbers_upset_by_waterless_urinals/
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
Dave,Other than Legionnaires' disease, what kind of damage can an HVAC worker do? I think carpentry can be more dangerous than HVAC.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
carpentry caOther than Legionnaires' disease, what kind of damage can an HVAC worker do? I think n be more dangerous than HVAC
With houses being built tighter and more energy efficient the issue of indoor air quality and "sick houses" is becoming more of an issue every passing year. It is in the scope of the HVAC design and installation contractor to make these homes habitable for long term occupancy.
Bob Walker can , and has, shown many pictures of improper gas appliance venting. How many were done by licensed HVAC contractors? Who knows? Sick, brain damaged, or dead clients from CO poisoning is not something I want on my conscious. I'll pay the big bucks and the inspection fees to know I did my best to protect someone.
Plumbers? How many "stinky stack" or "septic tank" threads have there been here? Those things that smell are generally not only bad for the occupants but may also effect their neighbors.
When I say public safety I mean it in the most general sense. Building, plumbing, electrical, and HVAC codes have historically been developed and driven by the need to protect the public from itself.
I also know that many code changes are now being driven by big money in the forms of manufactures, trade associations and unions. I don't like it anymore than anyone else and complain loudly to the code authorities when I get wind of these "influence" driven changes. I'll also campaign for new product incorporation in the code when I think it needs it.
I don't know if my voice is ever heard, but I will continue to send out the e-mails to our state building and housing department.
Dave
Only the inspectors should be required to be licensed. All work should be inspected and if a high school kid was good enough to plumb a house and pass the inspection, it should be legal.
I agree with you about licensing.
But do you really know plumbers who are raking it in? Maybe I associated with the wrong electricians but I don't see a windfall in the trades work that is not available to a skilled carpenter.
I think sometimes carpenters look at the billing rates of a guy who does service work and their jaw drops, not realizing that only half of that guys time is billable.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA