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How do you cut really thick lumber… 6x6or12x12 with ordinary tools? I want tight joints and really square edges but I don’t have a 30″ skil saw.
At first I thought that I would use my sliding compuond miter saw and just flip the wood over, finish it with a long blade fitted to my sawzall.
Made a mess of that, spent over an hour with my power plane to finally square it up. I looked at my band saw briefly because the throat is definately deep enough. but the idea of trying to keep a 20′ long oak 12″x12″ square while I tried to cross cut it made me laugh. That’s just one cut. I realize that I can’t use that method for the second one or I’ll have timbers that very in length from too short to too long.
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Never did it so I'm just makin stuff up but how about cutting it close to the line and using your belt sander to square it up and make it pretty.
*Frenchy, Can you put your bandsaw on wheels? Or build a sliding table for the timbers?Ken
*How many are you cutting?If just a few, practice a few times with cutting from opposite sides and finishing off with a (dare I say it?) sharpened hand saw. (For a 12x12, really practice and cut all 4 sidesIf you're doing a lot, consider mounting the bandsaw on a sturdy platform with casters and building a section of rail and push the bandsaw thru the cut, not the timber. I read this somewhere, but haven't tried it, myself.
*I have a jig that I make a may start selling for chainsaws...It cuts angles too and can easily cut 12" timbers...And Makita makes a big saw that you can rent at rental centers...It will cut it in two passes...I build many a dock where cuts don't have to be perfect but have cut so much wood with a chainsaw freehand following a line that I can often cut a thin pencil line in half...That's as accurate as you will ever need...try it...and practice making a few dozen 1/2" slices for an hour or two...You should be able to do the same accuracy...You will need a brand new bar and chain, not one that has been used at all in the woods...near the stream of a dozen chainsaws both gas and electric a jig equipped,ajnear the stream,aj
*You're going to hate this; but, the guys I've met who build docks put away their power tools when they get to the big timbers and use a bow-saw then clean it up with a belt-sander. They often two-man the saw so that they can 'watch the line' on both sides.
*Time for a serious attachment?Jeff
*Beam cutter works pretty well. A little thing that makes a big difference is striking your lines with a knife. Here's the reason: chain's rising at leading edge of the bar, tearout, albeit minimal with a sharp chain, is still enough to remove or damage a pencil-struck line. A knife-struck line's score acts as a limiting cut letting tearout stop crisply at your line. On good timbers it's entirely possible to cut lap-miters that can be used with no touch-up. Oftentimes, when I have both the Beamcutter and my Stihl 021 with me (both with good sharp chains) I'll opt for the Stihl. With its good balance and power-to-weight-ratio it's straightforward making true cuts with this super little chainsaw. My Beamcutter is on a blade-on-right sidewinder, visibility would probably be way superior on a worm. But as with most things it's what you get used to and more importantly,.. how keen is the cutting edge.
*Have you got a picture of this attachment?
*Frenchy, I fall in with the hand tool guys too. My method is to draw my lines then cut kerfs about 1/2" deep on all four sides. Then I finish my cut. I do best with the Japanese saws. One of them makes a timber saw with a disposable blade for about $50 last time I looked. Might work if you don't have too many cuts to make.
*My personal choice would be to cut all four sides with the circular saw and then finish out the center with a handsaw. You have to have a decent circular saw though to get a nice true cut. If there is any "stump" left in the center after the handsaw, you can easily sand that off with the beltsander.Pete
*Dammit Pete, you beat me to it again.I cut them using a circular saw, around all 4 sides. Make yer line around all 4 first, and make sure they come together. Also, you have to be very careful to set the blade in your circ saw absolutely square.Then I finish with a shark saw. And what Pete said about the belt sander.If you did well with the circular saw, then you will have deep, square shoulders to work from at the very least.
*I have over 750 timbers to cut and I'd like to do furniture quaility joints. I've waited for the timbers to dry in order to eliminate shrinkage so the joints will be tight. I will do the rough cuts with a prazi beam cutter, but The time it will take to clean up those joints scares me. It would be so easy if someone would simply make a 30 inch blade for my sliding compound miter saw. Thanks Freelance for the tip of scribbing the lines with a knife.
*Mr. Dampier,>>The time it will take to clean up those joints scares me. <<I don't know if you're on a low bid, or exactly what you are afraid of, but ...I first heard this from one of my own employees about ten years ago - but it stuck and has become a phrase that I often share w/ employees since."It's nothing but a buncha work". Priceless. That guy could change the attitude on a whole crew for the better. Another one he was often heard saying when someone seemed overwhelmed by the workload: "A couple of men can do a lot of work in a day".So chin up, pal! It's just a bunch of work, that's all.George LentuloP.S. LOTS of production framers around here cut 4 x 8, 4 x 10 headers w/ a hand saw to get a nice square tight fit. I recently had to cut eight 10 x 10 beams - used a good SHARP crosscut (hand) saw. No problem. 750 though ... I'd be looking to make some kind of slide-table set up.
*b TVMDCFrenchy, It's time to get a Prazzi Beam Cutter suggested by Jeff Clarke. It attaches to a Skil saw and with your existing saw table, you can zip through pretty massive beams IN ONE PASS, either 90 degrees or any bevel cut you want. Also very useful for juggling at Holloween parties:View Image
*Wow, if I was doing 750, then I'd probably look around for a horizontal band-saw (you know, the ones they normally use for cutting off lengths of metal) and put a wood blade in it. Around here they're pretty cheap used.
*Frenchy--If you only have to square the ends (e.g., cut off an inch or so) why not buy or rent a power metal cutting hacksaw (it's like a bandsaw where the blade swings up and down) and have Suffolk make you a few 3T blades. Never did timbers this way, but trimmed a lot of large pipe ends pretty square. You'ld have to build a platform for the timbers and a solid stand for the saw, but once the timber is on the holder and clamped in position, just start the saw and the operation is automatic.
*Bill Pickard or Jeff Clarke:I have 11) 8x8 and 13) 8x12 to cut next week or so. Can that Prazi be made to cut clean and square, right on the scribe mark? Is it *just* a matter of getting used to it? Does it really work as well as hand tools?Salesman at Orco talked me out of it ... said it left ends a bit out of square. But then, I don't know if he ever actually used one. Have you?Thanks.Geo.
*Correct me if I have missed something (I've been off-line for awhile). The last I heard from Frenchy, was the deal with 20 something inch wide oak flooring, now it's 750, oak, 12x12 beams that MUST be square.....French, what the hell ARE you building????And where did you get all the prime wood? I've never seen a 20 foot long, 12x12 oak beam, let alone one that was that large without splits and every other kind of defect known to the carpentry world?
*Aj, I remember a FH article about a west coast framer that used a similar jig for cutting rafters. In fact it was the same article that taught me to lay all the rafters upside down and run the saw through them all at once.blue
*"lay all the rafters upside down and run the saw through them all at once"Please elaborate.Pete
*Cris R, It's just A timberframe house that I kinda got carried away, i.e.; It's timberframed inside and out. with S.I.P.s in between. The joints on the outside won't be that critical. Heck outside I'll probably just try to be careful when I use the prazi and call it close enough. But inside I don't want to spend the rest of my life looking at a poorly fit joint. Not all beams are 12"x12" there are a lot of 6"x9", 6"x12" ,and evan a few 6"x6"'s White oak is relativly common wood in Minnesota and if you make friends with the saw mill a working stiff can evan afford it.
*The really old buildings, the ones torn down to make room for the all those new stick buildings, used to have a lot of massive beams/posts in them, but all that stuff went to the landfill. A hot item these days (actually I think we're behind the curve now) is lumber from the warehouses, factories and government facilities built for the war effort (WWII). Enterprising salvors have contracted to dismantle, rather than raze, and are getting to keep all that wood. Steel, among other metals needed during the war, was not available in the quantities needed for building. But wood, that's another story. The 12x12 beams you drool over now are mere toothpicks compared to the solid wood (16x16, and sometimes more) used. Imagine 50 or more years, all that wood nicely dried over that time span, just waiting to be recut or resurfaced. A good use for lumber that could easily have found its way to the chipper or to the landfill but instead (environmentalists say Amen) is now helping to keep some mature trees standing. Just one more "Darn, I wish I had thought of that" idea.
*George, That's what I've been told too. the Prazi is supposed to be O.K. for rough work but I don't know too many cabinet makers that would consider using it. I do agree that it can be just a bunch of work that has to be done (heck that's how I approach this whole project) but if there is a nice eazy way with all those timbers I'd kick myself if I found out after there was an easier way. At least it's worth the question.
*i Does it really work as well as hand tools?Nothing works as well as hand tools in the right hands. I haven't used the Prazi myself (no reason to), but I was aware of it because there are some timber framers nearby who do. It's certainly not for cabinet making, but then again I haven't seen too many cabinets with 12 x 12 corner posts.Here's an interesting handsaw I hope the price is in Yen. I can't imagine cutting 750 timbers with it, though.
*Pete, the carpenter would stand all the stock up on edge, and run the tilted chainsaw through the stock, cutting all the rafters in one swipe. For intance, if the roof was a 12/12, he'd tilt the chainsaw to 45 degrees and run it through. i've got a pic posted in the hip roof thread that kinda shows the idea. I think it's near the end.blue
*Jeff, I see a lot timber framed homes, some done by big name framers with poorly fit joints. Some of the biggest timbers are in the most visable location and I just don't want to spend the rest of my life looking at a poorly done joint. especially if there is a nice way to do it. Look carefully at the joints in any book and you'll see a few gaps as large as a half inch. Some evan larger.
*Frenchy,Makita makes a 16 5/16" circular saw that cuts 6 3/16". Tool Crib has them for $629. KK
*i Look carefully at the joints in any book and you'll see a few gaps as large as a half inch.How much gap due to poor fitting and how much to shrinkage drying? Regarding the Prazi I'll ask the guys I know if they're still using it and get back to you. They wrote the book called 'Barn' if you've seen it.PS - I heard that the big Makita is pretty scary to use - wasn't it in FHB once in a review?
*Jeff, Some of that has to be because of shrinkage but evan with timberframers using recycled wood there are gaps. look carefully in Tedd Bensons new book that features recycled wood from the Long Bell mill you can see a few gaps (page 31,50,51,91etc.) Please don't think I'm an arrogant jerk just because I notice a little "charcter", I'm not foolish enough to believe that I'm a better craftsmen then Tedd's crew, I just think that if I do enough planing / practice I can do a better job then some of the local crews do. Anybody got experiance with the big Mikita? I've got their 1806B 6" portable plane and it's a nice piece, but boy is it a handfull to wrestle with.
*Ya stole my thunder. Get the big-ass Makita! Only played with one once, but a fairly well balanced monster. What'd ya say...750 cuts...at $630 that's less than $.85 per cut! Put up and Cut up! Jeff
*But isn't the gyro effect spoky ! Some random-orbit sanders get a bit, but once that big saw winds up it's really hard to move off plane.
*I used one of those things once a few years back cutting some lam beams, scary at best, but I'm sure that like everything else, use it for awhile and get used to it. My only thought during this quick, get to know it and cut the wood stint was, "man if this thing binds or kicks, the leg or anything in the way is gone"...in one pass!!
*Recycled timbers are still going to move around if you start cutting into them; you can't predict the stresses. English restoration guys talk about this a lot; they'll cut into a 500 year old beam, figuring it is as dry as it's ever going to get, and it goes spaghettio on them. I think I'd be having them x-rayed before I ran a 16" handheld saw into a recycled timber, too. (Just a general comment on recycled timbers; Frenchy is using new stuff, right?)I have to say, I think you're getting too obsessive about "cabinetmaking " quality joints. It isn't cabinetmaking, it's timber framing. I've spent a lot of time looking at old frames, and they are impressive for what they are; a little gap here and there is part of it. If it's that critical, take them to one of the framers that advertises in FH with four-and-five axis CNC routers; the joinery won't get any closer than that. I'll bet you can see some gaps in their joints after a few heating seasons though.
*b WBA At Your ServiceOur company bought the big Makita about 8 or 9 years ago for reframing a 100' x 100' warehouse that burned. The structure was built with 8x8 columns supporting 8x14 beams in Doug Fir on 20' centers. I got the job of doing all the cutting of this massive pile of wood. With the usual amount of fine-tuning on a new saw, I found it very easy to get excellent quality cuts. I have used the saw many times over the years, without any problems or repairs. Yes, it is heavy, and no, it is not the best manufactured power tool on the market. The base is not cast, it is stamped metal that is too flexible. The retracting blade guard is also heavy sheet metal that I felt was a little cheesy. The motor runs at 13 amps and seems a little weak for the massive blade. It takes a little getting used to the blade spinning at 2100 rpms. The guys joke that they can read the writing on the blade during a cut. Yes, there is a gyroscopic effect, but not enough for it to be annoying. I would not purchase this saw for doing large quantities of ripping. It doesn't have the nuts. Any cross cutting will be fine, though. As far as safety is concerned, I actually felt safer using this saw than any other. I have found absolutely no tendency to kick back, even with a dull blade. I attribute this to the general lack of horsepower. All in all this saw would be perfect for what you are doing. With the shoe adjusted square with the blade, you can make some fine cuts with this machine- you can even trim a sixteenth if you need to. When you buy, check one thing- the saw usually comes with a HSS blade. The carbide one in 16 5/16" is about $220 and normally has to be ordered from our supplier. If you really want to get into this big time check out http://www.mafell.com. Be seated for the pricing.
*b WBA At Your ServiceOne other thing I forgot to mention. When you do your final fitting, get yourself a 4 1/2" or 5" grinder fitted with a sanding backer disc and a bunch of #12 to #24 sanding discs. The sand particles are like rocks and cut like crazy. About 10 years ago I started doing all my coping of hardwood moldings with 32 or 40 grit paper. Leave the coping saw in the box. I use a rigid backer for sanding flat surfaces like your beam ends and a flexible backer for doing molding work. Everybody thinks its crazy until they try it.
*b WBA At Your ServiceOur company bought the big Makita about 8 or 9 years ago for reframing a 100' x 100' warehouse that burned. The structure was built with 8x8 columns supporting 8x14 beams in Doug Fir on 20' centers. I got the job of doing all the cutting of this massive pile of wood. With the usual amount of fine-tuning on a new saw, I found it very easy to get excellent quality cuts. I have used the saw many times over the years, without any problems or repairs. Yes, it is heavy, and no, it is not the best manufactured power tool on the market. The base is not cast, it is stamped metal that is too flexible. The retracting blade guard is also heavy sheet metal that I felt was a little cheesy. The motor runs at 13 amps and seems a little weak for the massive blade. It takes a little getting used to the blade spinning at 2100 rpms. The guys joke that they can read the writing on the blade during a cut. Yes, there is a gyroscopic effect, but not enough for it to be annoying. I would not purchase this saw for doing large quantities of ripping. It doesn't have the nuts. Any cross cutting will be fine, though. As far as safety is concerned, I actually felt safer using this saw than any other. I have found absolutely no tendency to kick back, even with a dull blade. I attribute this to the general lack of horsepower. All in all this saw would be perfect for what you are doing. With the shoe adjusted square with the blade, you can make some fine cuts with this machine- you can even trim a sixteenth if you need to. When you buy, check one thing- the saw usually comes with a HSS blade. The carbide one in 16 5/16" is about $220 and normally has to be ordered from our supplier. If you really want to get into this big time check out http://www.mafell.com. Be seated for the pricing.
*Hi Frenchy, I used the makita for a very large job years ago and found it to be a very nice pussycat. Just respect it !
*Frenchy:http://www.mafell.deThe cream of the timber framers crop. You need mafell. I'll buy whatever you don't need anymore when you're done for half price. (Don't laugh, the advice is worth the loss, and it's the best offer you've got!)Also: I cannot believe nobody mentioned this. For 6x6's, run your skilsaw around all four sides, then take a sawzall with a long, thick blade (I use the ax) and slice the middle out. Then touch up if necessary with a belt sander.I recently cut about 100 timbers using this method. It will give excellent results though it may take a few to get the hang of lining up your cuts properly and not hacking with the sawzall, but after that, it's pretty fast and accurate.MD
*Mad Dog, Thanks , but I tried to do that with my first cut and found the sawzall blade cuts a wider kirf then the saw did. That messed up the joint enough that I tried to straighten it out with the Mikita. By the time I got the cut square and nice I probably cut about 3/8ths of an inch off the beam. Now maybe the guys that use hand tools all the time can take a slick and with a few passes square up a joint, but I can't. (maybe after 750 timbers, but...) In addition it took me about an hour to do, that's 1500 hours just to cut the timbers to length (O.K. maybe I'll get faster the more I do). In addition I worry that if I take a beam and shorten too much because if I guess wrong I'm stuck either using a green beam (and some of those beams took a while to find long enough and straight enough)or a too short one.
*Tim Kline, How many cuts could you get out of the blade before it had to be reshapened? And, did you use the HSS blade or the carbide? I've heard the Mafell is the way to go if you're going to make a career of this, but I'm not.
*Adrian , you're probably right about me being too obsessive about the quality of my joints. I wish I could be realisitic about it but I'm very hard on my work ( to the point where I point out to anyone willing to look, all of my mistakes) ... the funny thing is when someone else does it it's usally "good enough" I think I could tolerate gaps that open after a few heating seasons, but to accept a gap because of my poor workmanship would drive me insane over time. I really expect to live the rest of my life here. Besides when I'm gone I wouldn't want anyone to waste those big oak timbers because they see mistakes I made, so as a result tear down the house.
*b TVMDCGeorge,I've used the Prazzi a lot on my Mag77. When cross-cutting a beam or column, you want the cut square in 2 planes: vertical and cross cut. Since the Prazzi is a swap-out for the 77's blade, the vertical cut is taken care of by the saw's table. If set to 90 degrees, the vertical plane is 90 degrees. The cross-cut can be cut accurately with practice or you can clamp a 2x4 on the timber to guide the saw's table. You can avoid tear-out by scribing or cutting a line with a knife or another Skil saw. Be certain you have a sharp and oiled chain and don't push the saw too quickly through the work.The main benefit using the Prazzi is that you make your cuts in a SINGLE PASS. But even if you made perfect cuts with an exacto knife, your joints would open up as a result of shrinkage, especially in perpendicular joints like mortise and tenon, post and beam, etc. . . you have to make your cuts after the wood has stabilized.
*b TVMDCJeff, 12x12 corner posts are quite common in the land of the giants.Regards, Bill
*I've used a modified version of Mad Dog's method ....scribed cut lines, used a Swanson 12" speed square as a guide for cross cuts, used a dozuki to finish the cuts, and used a block plane to clean everything up. Wished I had a bruzz for cleaning up the corners in the mortises. If you offset your treenail (peg) holes in the tenon back an 1/8", it will help draw the joint tight. What I found took the longest were the scarf joints .....the 16" Makita or even the 10" Milwaukee sure would have been nice to have.
*You are very anal Frenchy. You are cursed.The only way will be to fit each one and use a smaller saw. you'll never get those behemouths to fit with one cut of a big saw. YOur layot lines will need to be scribed.Good luck. blue
*just go for it with a nice sharp chainsaw, score it with a scoring knife or skill saw then finish with a belt sander and grinders DO NOT BE AFRAID
*b WBA At Your ServiceFrenchy, We bought a carbide blade at the same time we purchased the saw. It cut all of our fir timbers easily, and lasted another year or two before nails dulled it. 750 oak timbers would certainly dull at least 2 or 3 HSS blades. I don't know their cost or what it would cost to resharpen all of those teeth.
*Thanks Tim Kline, It's nice to talk to someone with actual experiance. I'll let you know how it works as I get into it. There are quite a few Amish south of here and when I was planning this a few years ago they were my first thought, but it won't work. First, they know the value of things and drive a hard bargin. I want to finish the beams and they wouldn't do it unless I hand planed them, (or paid them to do it) Then because I'm aware that final fitting in the field is needed I had hoped that they would be there when I raised them. That wasn't something they would be willing to help me with either. The few local timber-framers were so busy that I never did get a formal quote from anyone, but they all were talking way more money then would ever be in my budget. When enough people tell me no, I get determined and with the help of nice people like yourself and others it will happen. ... Thank-you everyone
*Mad Dog, I just got my quote from Mafell, Gulp Almost $4000 for the 110 volt and that mother requires a 24 amp circuit. The extension cord would have to be jumper cable size to carry enough juice to keep from burning out the motor. Sorry buddy but it looks like the Mikita is gonna be my answer. I like nice tools but $4000.00?
*I didn't say they were cheap!You decide how best to get what you want with what you can afford. The Makita should be fine for you.As far as your trouble with my method, well you know that you can put a thicker kerf blade on your skilsaw and use a thinner one to slice out the middle with your sawzall, it would be plain lazy not to, I didn't mention it because it's awfully elementary...Anyway, a slick would not help you with the endgrain, the followup mentioned by JCallahan about using the block plane is excellent, I would prefer that to a belt sander in this case, but it's no place for a slick.Lots of luck. MD
*Mad Dog, I watch the Amish build a barn about 15 years ago. They would grab hand saws, slicks and a few chisels and in about 25 minutes form the most intriacate cuts in a beam. It seemed to be a point of pride that they never used the chisel except for cleaning out the pockets ( or maybe their skill level was so high that a slick was just the best way). They put them up green and evan today their joints are still tight. I know it's a sin to envy another mans skill but I wish I could do that accurate of work. A lifetime of power this and that has ruined me.
*b WBA AtYour ServiceFrenchy, I told you to sit down when you called Mafell ! When was the last time you saw 110volt anything running on 24 amps ? Wirefry !
*b WBA AtYour ServiceFrenchy, I told you to sit down when you called Mafell ! When was the last time you saw 110volt anything running on 24 amps ?
*Don't the amish use handplanes?Well, don't let me get more confused. You want furniture quality joints in big timbers. We give the high and low tech options, but you already had the answers: just get a few nice i handsaws, a slick and some chisels.You didn't tell me you had 5 years to do the project, or that's exactly what I would have recommended. Do you have 24 kids with time on their hands? i They put them up green and evan today their joints are still tight.Then why do it any other way?
*My parents used to live in New Holland, PA and my dad worked for a Menonite family for a while. They've still got some Menonite friends we go visit. For the most part, the Amish and Menonites have adopted our building techniques sans the electric. Pressure treated pole barns, trusses, sheet metal skins, etc.And those perfect joints in the barns, all have big gaps. Neat old barns (especially the ones that are the size of a foot ball field with 40' high barrel vault roofs.) but they are functional, not furnature quality.
*Mad Dog, I'm sure they use hand planes for a lot of things, they just didn't use them on the timbers. Skill and speed seem to go together, The crew put together a barn in less then a week from rough timbers and piles of wood to up and finished. The joints were and still are nicely done. while there is some gap it looks right, not like something boggered up. Maybe furniture quaility is too much ambition but there is a difference between right and sloopy. I think that if the joints are 90 degrees and square the whole building will go up better. I've tried hand tools and no matter how much care I take I'm not satisfied with my work. I've made many of things with the right equipment that I can take pride in. I just came on the "net" to see if there is a better way. Apparently the Mikita will be my answer. It was nice to talk to some that have used it and find their opinion. Thanks everyone.
*Frenchy...Here you can rent the Makita or you can rent the ten inch Milwaukie....If you are just doing this one project, I wouldn't buy the Makita...I would buy the Milwaukie and learn how to finish the center...It's very easy...And my chainsaw jig cuts super too for a big end cut, but there aren't enough end cuts to do in timberframing...Most of your joints will have multiple facets and will need multiple tools to machine...The slick is always the last tool in your hand...You need a slick...And a carbide sanding grinder...and a orbital finish sander...near the stream,ajMake a few joints on waste ends till you approve your work.
*Adirondack Jack, Thanxs I refuse to rent except when I know absolutely how long it will take me to do something and evan then I double my estimate of the time needed. Years ago when I reshingled my roof the daily rental on a nail gun was low enough to make me try renting. The best laid plans etc. and I had the nail gun over a month, (the guys that were supposed to show up, didn't, and work became crazy, I would get home at 9 and with flash lites and flood lights work til midnight or so. Weekends seemed to rain in floods. Between takeing the tarp off, setting up and etc. some nights I only got one or two courses laid. The bill when I returned it was higher then the retail price of a new one. I"ve got a lot of red tools, but the ability to make a one pass cut is too tempting to ignore. Most of my cuts will be either butt, half lap or some angle. The roof joist will be fish mouthed together held with (turn your head Ted Benson) stainless steel lag bolts that are countersunk and plugged. If I had gone to all wood connections the timber size must go up a lot to account for all the wood that must be removed.
*Frenchy...Send me the design...I have a freind that only cuts frames....And he uses standard joints...no bolts...8x8...6x8...6x6...4x4...1" pegs...builds his own exterior drywall or T&G...foam taped...the ply...then...exterior...airspace on roof...claps for siding...All drywall joints behind wood members...Real nice set up, near the stream,ajHe does not use the Makita he owns anymore.
*Frenchy, Having just read this entire thread I am reminded of a quote from a local small business:"I can do it cheaply. I can do it quickly. I can do it accurately. Now pick 2."You have to decide which of these is your priority. You are asking for all three, and it just ain't gonna work that way.
*Amy,I hope I can do it quickly, I want to do it accurately and since I won't charge myself anything I hope I can prove you wrong. ( I will and have got some help from my daughters but since I'm paying for their college maybe it won't be exactly cheap. Ahh well, they get the use of the house and when I become worm food they get to own it too!
*Adirondack Jack, I'm interested. Are you saying that your friend would be willing to come here and help? or does he want to build it there and maybe ship it here? the later won't work as I've already purchased the timbers and had them air dryed for the past couple of years. Shipping 20,000 bd.ft. of timber across the country sounds very expensive. Actually having someone come across country to work sounds expensive. The motel bills , resturant bills, and the cost of being away from home, yuk!!! but lets talk, I could use help and am willing to pay the going rate. (maybe if Bush gets elected the economy will slow down like it did for his dad and there will be lots of people looking for work. It would be nice to be able to select an employee rather then take what you can get from the few that aren't working steady).
*French,are all your joints butt joints? If not, why are you spending time to square up the ends it would be the shoulder to shoulder cuts that would be critical.
*Dear John, ... Sorry, I just wanted to see what it felt like to write one instead of get one... ANYWAY... NO they aren't all butt joints, I just want to make sure that any cut I make is square. Gaps are formed when something isn't square and true. (or you've measured wrong and have to booger up a joint to get things to fit.) Like I said, when I try to score the cut by flipping big beams over, Things aren't so accurate using my existing tools. Working with a 24 ft. 6"x9" oak beam is a lot more awkward then working with a 3 1/2x 3 1/2 cedar post 8 ft. long. When you cover up your joints with sheet rock there is a totally differant standard then when you have to stare at your cut for the rest of your life. If I could reach over to the pile and grab another 2x4 that cost less then $5.00 I wouldn't be so worried, but when you have to find a tree large enough and straight enough to make the beam you want, cut it, haul it ,mill it and dry it for almost three years, you want each cut to be dead-nuts-accurate.
*Frenchy,I understand your desire to have every thing gap free. My point was many of your joint cuts are only part way through the beam which could be done with a smaller saw. With your beam cut to rough length an extra inch or so you could cut your joint and then resting you saw on the cheek of the tenon or lap joint you could cut it to final length. You would still need a good size saw but this would make many of them more managable. Cutting the shoulder square would be easier than cutting the cheeks of a tenon. How are you planning on cutting the cheeks?
*Why didn't I think of that? (or anyone else, for that matter)...
*John, and Adrian, yes a lot of the cuts will be butt cuts or angle cuts, a few half laps but only ten mortise and tenion. That's because I spent one whole winter planning this to avoid a lot of complicated joints. The inspiration for this came from visiting "the Old Log Theater" near here. It was built in the early 50's and looks as good today as when it was built. Instead of a lot of complicated wood joinery they simply bolted every thing together. While that looked too crude for me, the concept with some refinement will work for me. What I plan on doing is to use lag bolts countersunk and covered with pegs. According to The Timber Construction manual, my method of assembly will provide me with a strong enough assembly to endure a level 5 tornado and enough crush resistance to handle a 500 ton vertical load. ( the secret, if there is one, to long life is to over build everything)
*Frenchy,If you lag bolt the timbers, cover them up with pegs, I will not talk to you anymore. You'll probably call it a "timber frame" too.Come on, get with the program. Forget lag bolts, or go cut your timbers into sticks.Complicated joinery? That's the FUN part! What is this, the vinyl siding approach to "timber" framing?I couldn't be more disappointed... Even if you use walnut heartwood for deck posts, 22" burl oak for flooring, etc. Geez!MD
*Mad dog, i was thinking along the same lines. But too polite to say it.Frenchy, get real. Learn the complicated joinery or just call me and have them whacked into studs.blue
*Get a book on Japanese Timberframing... and go handsaw, slick, and mortise chisel, and get Apprentices. You'll come to appreciate how your time is better spent beating the Apprentices, than working the wood.
*Attagurl Amy. Hit the proverbial nail on the head.
*Technically? "Heavy Timber Construction". Common to Industrial Revolution era Mill Buildings. "Iron Fastened"... not a technical timberframe. That requires joinery, not wrenches.
*To all of you, If I had the time it takes to become a master, if I had the skill it takes to become a master, if I had the desire to become a master to eliminate the fasteners I doubt that I would. There are a lot of reasons to use the technique I plan on, the main one is because it will be a stronger connection, that is, it will be adjustable to correct for any shrinkage. I was in one house that the owner's biggest complaint was all the noise that he would hear as the timbers squeeked and groaned in the wind or adjusted for the weather. This in a house only a decade old. (it was also a cold and drafty house since instead of using SIPS they had filled between the timbers with stick framing and fiberglass) O.K. fair enough, you don't like the term Timber-framed when you refer to timbers that are connected by fasteners rather then joinery. I admit I may not be using the term correctly, rather as a form of shorthand to discribe what the house will appear as rather then some claim as to the construction technique. Ted Benson writes in his book that only homes built using wood to wood connections should be called timberframed, Fair enough, does, "large timbers connected with some wood to wood joinery and some metal fasteners" sound a little awkward to anyone besides me? I mean this purity of technique doesn't evan stand up to scrutiny. I know the SIPS are held on with metal fasteners evan in Ted Benson's finest. In fact metal fasteners are used throughout his homes. The standard that any connection between two pieces of wood are,1 is it safe?2 is it strong? 3 is it durable?4 can it be adjusted?5 was it done well? I will grant you that a proper wood to wood connection can be all of those, if you will grant me that other methods can be as well. Please don't forget that when you're carving out those beautifull Housed dovetail tenons that you are removeing large amounts of wood. to compensate for that lose of wood you must increase the size of the timber by a significant amount to maintain the original strength. Since the timbers must get larger they also get heavier, and so they must be larger again to carry the added weight, etc. etc.
*Frenchy...You know Jack!near the stream listening to drivle,aj
*Ack, Ptooey.Getting rid of a bad taste in my mouth, but glad you can justify your reasoning, which seems important to you. It's fine if you want to cheat on the timber framing process to speed things up. I'm sure you're Amish friends would feel like I do though, when you insist that the metal connections are superior.I don't think a force five tornado could take down one of Tedd Benson's frames, are you expecting a twin Cities missile attack?Timber frames don't need adjustments. Very average timber framed houses and barns have outlasted many more "modern-method" structures. If one creaks in the wind, that's sort of a good thing. When my barn creaks, I don't think, "wow, I wish they'd used some lag bolts" or agree that the presence of lag bolts has anything to do with creaking anyway.Whatever though, Frenchy. I think you'll do whatever you like, regardless of what's said here...
*Mad dog, I'm sorry I can't make you happy with the method I've choosen. I don't think my method will be significantly faster ( predrilling the pilot hole, shank hole and countersinking all of those fasteners into dried oak will take plenty of time) then a good "beam team" could cut all of those scarf joints. Don't worry you won't have to look at the method I've choosen. No fastener will be exposed (except during actual consruction) and those hidden will be stainless steel so there won't be any reaction between the oak/blackwalnut and the fasteners. Tornados do happen in Minnesota, if the method I've choosen provides me with a better chance of surviving, I think that's a good thing, don't you? Not a lot of those old timberframed barns survive a tornado.
*Welll...you're saying the lags will mean the joints can be adjusted. But you're going to plug the holes and do a furniture grade finish on them. When they loosen...and they will loosen, all metal to wood connections loosen...are you going to drill out all those plugs to tighten them up? I'm not digging at you here, it's just a question.As an aside here, tornados aside, timberframes don't seem to do that well in earthquakes. One of the reasons the Japanese are abandoning them for stud walls.
*Frenchy, don't get your panties in a bunch. Now, you wrote a fairly eloquent response to your detractors. Congratulations. But, you could have made it a lot shorter by quoting Aaron Tippin's new song title. Please allow me to demonstrate.i To all of you, i "Kiss THIS!"
*Adrian, Yes, I will leave the plugs slightly loose so that when the time comes I can remove the plugs to retorque the lag-screws. In fact I plan on dipping them (the lag-screws) in beeswax prior to installation to ensure that when I do retorque them they haven't become friction bound. I spent a great deal of time designing the connections to enable me to retorque all of the connections. the plugs will stand slightly (about an inch) proud of the beams, barely snug with beeswax forming the bond. I know this is not a true timber frame, would it be more proper to call it Post And Beam? I like this forum, I get a lot of advice, some of it very well thought out, others,well.... I don't mean to seem over bearing, I realize that sometimes I spend too much time explaining how I plan on doing something and it sounds like I've made up my mind. That is not the case, I assure you. When some give me advice that is well thought out, not opinion, I appreciate it. I evan carefully read all opinion and give it the proper consideration. You "guys" and local contractors have changed many things on this so far and you will probbly influeance many others. ThanxsP.S. I built an actual exact scale model of this out of the slab wood from the timbers that were cut just to ensure that the connections would be strong and correct. Scale 1" =1'
*Frenchy...Call it lag screwed post and beam maybe...but not timber framed.near the real timberframes,aj
*Timber frames do stand up real good to earthquakes. In November there will be a syposium in Turkey where they found out that the timberframes are still standing while all else crumbled. The Japanese know that the timber frames are the best to. Unfortunately according to a restoration architect who lives there design is now driven by engineers who use formulas to prove they are right. Using the same formulas they say timberframes do not work. But the pictures I saw of Japans last earthquake shows that formulas don't mean a thing. They did a study and found that any timber building that failed in the earthquake was due to rot at connections or insect damage but not due to a failure of the wood.
*Adirondack Jack, That does not account for the half lap, mortise and tenon, butt, or fish mouth joints that I will be using. So by your rules we'd have to call it a half lap,mortise and tenon, butt, fish mouth, lag screw Post and beam. O.K. fair enough as long as you call them housed dovetail mortise and tenon, scarf, shouldered girt,etc.etc.etc.timberframe. Oops, I mean hand cut joints (unless you used power tools to cut some of those joints or used a power drill to drill out the pockets in mortise work, or cut the tenons with a cicular saw. Well if we are being picky, you can't use a mill to cut timbers then either. You better plan on hand hewing them. Let's just admit that there is a large variety of ways to use wood. If all of the wood joints in your house are hand cut dovetails, my hats off to you. I bet somewhere in there you've got a lap joint or evan a butt joint held together with nails.
*Frenchy...You're OK with me....Now get that frame done and get off the web!near the stream,aj
*As long as we are having fun here on this tangent of discussing relevant terminology, I guess I will jump in regarding my attempt last June to provide a definition for post and beam and timber frame which Frenchy took mild exception to. To quote from Matt G. "will this look funy?" 6/6/00 7:15pm CaseyR - 11:30pm Jun 6, 2000 EST (11.) Oregonians don't tan, they rustMatt- Don't know anything about returns on building (does that mean you take them back to the lumber yard if you don't like them...:) but have checked into the terms timber frame and post and beam. To a large extent the terms are used interchangeably. However, some suppliers limit the term "timber frame" to those structures which use traditional mortise and tendon joinery whereas "post and beam" either is applied to those structures which use metal in joining the frame parts or is a more generic term which includes both types of construction. This is just my observation, however. Frenchy Dampier - 11:42pm Jun 6, 2000 EST (11.1) Casey, I'm sure Tedd Benson would agree with you on the definition of timber-frame but the American Institute of timber construction doesn't. Basically a timber frame differs in that a few large timbers replace many small "sticks". because of the massive apperance of those timbers they are exposed and become part of the design, rather then covering them with sheet rock. Since I didn't quite understand where the "many small sticks" came in regarding timber construction (I thought that was stick building...), I checked with the American Institute of Timber Construction http://www.aitc-glulam.org/top.htm to find that:The American Institute of Timber Construction (AITC) is the national technical trade association of the structural glued laminated (glulam) timber industry. AITC represents a majority of the glued laminated timber manufacturers in the U.S. in addition to a number ofinstallers, suppliers, sales representatives, engineers, architects, designers, and researchers. So, I guess that means that their definition only applies to glulams...My definition is butressed somewhat by a definition given in Timber Homes Illustrated:Post-and-beam construction is a general category that includes timber framing. It features large-dimension vertical and horizontal elements which are connected to form the basic framework that supports the roof and walls, much as a skeleton support the body. The posts and beams are more widely spaced than smaller wall studs, allowing for more open space, easier installation of large windows and more flexible placement of free-standing walls and partitions. The posts and beams may be made of wood or some other material, such as steel, but in Timber Homes Illustrated, they are wood that is at least 5 inches in square. Timber framing elevates post-and-beam construction to an art form. The horizontal and vertical members are made of wood that is shaped and joined skillfully to resist the forces of tension and compression. In fact, this joinery is the essence of timber framing.Of course, Timber Homes Illustrated, like a couple of other timber frame oriented magazines has some great photos, but presents a level of writing and technical detail about that found in your average airline magazine. They indicated that they don't do technical detail because it is covered so well in Fine Home Building... Yeah, I know, too much time on my hands again, but I thought you would want to know...
*I agree mad dog. My first house was a squeaky mess. But my daughter never snuck upstairs to bed either...blue
*Frenchy, how bout posting a couple of pictures of that model? I may not be around for the pictures of the finished project......patient but old Joe H
*i So by your rules we'd have to call it a half lap,mortise and tenon, butt, fish mouth, lag screw Post and beam.Maybe you should just call it butt mouth post and beam.
*Hi Casey, I'm sorry, I was trying to be funny when I used the phrase, "many small sticks" instead of stick building. I forget that people can't see the sh*t eating grin on my face when I type this. Timber C onstruction Manual may be written by some who represent the glue laminated timber industry as well as others, but it definately covers Timbers, sawn lumber, decking,as well as glue lams and way too much more stuff to make light reading. Want to know how strong a lagscrew connection is? It's in there. The correct methods to assemble joints? It's in there. Need to know how strong any particular joint is,....well with some calculations? It's in there. Species and grading agency's of 3&4 inch decking? It's in there. Really a dull book, but if you want to convince a building inspector that what you want to do is O.K. this is the book to read. It's also a lot cheaper then hiring someone to look all this up for you and stamp it with his little stamp.
*Luka, A fish butt mouth post and beam?......
*Joe, Sorry, among the many things I ain't worth a cr*p at, it's taking a picture. Well that's not strickly true. I suppose I'm not much worse then average, but for some reason a camera lasts no more then two weeks with me. I've tried them all, cheap ones, expensive ones, disposable, etc. I bought a high buck Nikon once, took a ton of pictures on vacation to Vienna, came home and had it stolen from my car. I've dropped disposables in puddles, the ocean, and on the freeway. If I figure the number of pictures I've taken vs the average cost of the camera I must have about $35.00 to $40.00 per picture. So like an alcoholic, I'm on the wagon .... My name is Frenchy and I haven't taken a picture in three years....
*LOLNow that's a mouthful...b : )
*I'd like to see that too.
*Frenchy, put the model in a box and ship it to FHB......maybe they can write an article about it and take some pics while it's there. This has got to be the absolute strangest thing going here at Breaktime, be great to see what the hell it is. And are we still just talking about the ADDITION? 750 beams, ect is for the addition? Joe H
*Joe, No thats the number of timbers to do the whole house... But I can't do that yet. You see, the city I live in has some of the strangest rules about building you can imagine. For example, you can't just tear down a house and build a new one in the footprint of the old one. If you remove more then a third of it, they want you to remove the whole thing. Then you need to conform to a set of rules that basically forces you to build what amounts to a three story bowling alley. My original approach was to do a third of it at a time. To do that I had to go before the planning commision, city council, and building inspector 22 times to get the permit that I was origninally approved for over a year and a half ago. Isn't democracy great? I mean for $2.00 I can run for mayor and change the rules. Kiss a few hands and shake a couple of baby's and I might get elected. The old mayor didn't want to run and the only other candidate hasn't campaigned. This isn't as flaky of a job as it sounds, The community I live in is one of the richest in Minnesota, with a population of over 7000 and an annual budget of 13 million bucks. Anyway, I'm working with some city council candidates and if we all get elected, I get to do my whole house. In the meantime I've got 23,000 bd.ft. of White oak, black walnut, eastern white pine, and tamerack stickered up/ tarped, and air drying. I lose and I have to do it one third at a time. I'll let you know November 8 It will take a big box to ship the model of my addition, 36" x40" by 28" high. The model of my whole house ( which I'm working on now, would be 92"x40"x28". Hey, I could build a nice fitted case for it to ship in.....let's see I can use that....
*
How do you cut really thick lumber... 6x6or12x12 with ordinary tools? I want tight joints and really square edges but I don't have a 30" skil saw.
At first I thought that I would use my sliding compuond miter saw and just flip the wood over, finish it with a long blade fitted to my sawzall.
Made a mess of that, spent over an hour with my power plane to finally square it up. I looked at my band saw briefly because the throat is definately deep enough. but the idea of trying to keep a 20' long oak 12"x12" square while I tried to cross cut it made me laugh. That's just one cut. I realize that I can't use that method for the second one or I'll have timbers that very in length from too short to too long.