Howdy,
I just got hammered by an architect for my estimate on a 5,400 sq.ft high end home. The job is your typical mansion, all stain grade trim, crown, chairail, tin ceilings, two staircases, one curved with wrough iron balasters, brick veneer with basket weeve patterns and limestone sills and heads and on and on. Everything high end! You hopefully get the point. I came in around $260sq.ft, which included demo of two 1,600 sq.ft homes to make room for the new house. I have been building at least one new home a year and have never felt so betrayed by an architect for promising a client a home of this caliber for around $165-$175sq. ft. My price includes a 700sq.ft garage and about 900sq.ft of very ornate porch’s. Plus 1,500 sq.ft. of unfinished basement. I guess what I’m asking all you builders who I have listened in on for years is, do I need a reality check? These are my cost. I’m not making millions, this architect told the client he could have this home built for 350,000 less, I don,t see it. When I was a framing sub back in the day it was typical for the builder to say your framing the garage for free, complete
, but I accepted it, young and dumb. This architect was trying to tell me the builders he has used includes the garage in there $165-$175sq.ft price. I don’t build garages for free. What are you guys building these types of homes for? I’m in Denver, co. Thanks so much.
Edited 1/25/2006 5:59 pm ET by jeremy748r
Replies
Tell them to get another price. Then raise yours, saying you recalculated all the finish, and found you had underestimated quite a bit of it.
And raise your price before that second one comes in, if it ever does.
The Arch. is smoking something funny. Don't let him squeeze you. Let your own experience be your guide. You're talking about top end work, in which case the customer is often more difficult to deal with. Good luck.
Curved stairs with Iron ballusters hate them take forever to finish out I agree raise the price and have the "lets make a deal architect" install the finished stairs if he thinks your price is to high now he'll be begging you to take the money to finish them for him.
You might get hammered here for mentioning price by the sq ft but............
It sound to me like you simple did not leave enoigh room for the architect to make his number. Or maybe his number to his client was so far off the mark that he is embarassed to tell them what you need to build this home.
What is your relationship with this architect and have you ever worked with him before? What's his record about town, ie, what has he done in this range that has produced happy clients AND happy builders. After all, that IS what we are looking for right?
Remember, sometimes the best jobs are the one we don't get.
Sure hope you didn't give away all that figgerin' for free!
But that's a whole other thread.
And welcome to BT. Stick around!
E
[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
Thanks so much for all your replys. My relationship with this architect is new. I was approached by the homeowner and architect about a month and a half ago. We looked at previous projects and talked about sq. ft. prices just for sake of ballparking. Based on our meetings the client was sold, they wanted us to build the house and once the plans were finished to put a cost on it. They were originally planning on about 4,000sq.ft with a detached garage, I told them without knowing really any details of the house approx. $235 sq. ft. and then more details became available. The architect and homeowner had no problem with that at the time. Then when the final plans were finished and the budget was pretty complete we had a meeting, arch, client, myself. They were blown away at the cost! Then the architect had the nerve to say he just recently built a house on a similar magnitude for $180sq.ft. Why he didnt mention this in our first couple of meetings is beyond me. I know the market here enough to know he is full of """"". I have been down this road before when a estimate comes together and we have the big meeting and you start explaining all the cost to the architect he realizes that he has designed a house that cost more than he anticipated, but to not listen to what I was saying from the begining and then throw in a large wrench during the big meeting is just plain wrong! I would love to do the project but I can't imagine working with this guy, He would definetly get locked in the porta jon!
You're WAY outta my league at least $ wise. There's a couple of guys here who may have more experience in this $ bracket.
But I'll give you my take anyway.
YOUR client went from 4000 sq ft to over 5400, plus the addittion of the demo of the cottages and a whole boat load od fancy details. What changed??
We're looking at close to a million and a half dollars here.
YOUR client has a crappy architect that has designed his ego into thier home instead of designing it within their budget.
They're YOUR clients, take them to YOUR architectand design them a 4000 sq ft home WITHIN thier budget.
The architects job is to design them a home initially within their budget. If the client then discovers that they need more home, THEN he can redesign and add, but they gotta know that it's gonna cost.
He is not allowed to over design and expect a builder to build the home for the original budget to make him look good.
I'd be looking for another architect or the door.
Eric[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
"sometimes the best jobs are the one we don't get."loud applause!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"sometimes the best jobs are the one we don't get."
I think Mike Smith or Sonny Lykos is due credit on that, at least for how it came my way.
How is Sonny anyway? Wasn't it you that visited him in Naples a coupla of years ago? Do you keep in touch?
Eric[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
I did visit with him down there. Called to take him out for a steak dinner to thank him for all the good advise here and there, but being the old world gentleman that he is, he refused to let me pick up the tab. He was a grand host. Good family man. Pleasure all the way around.But me contact with him has fallen off to when we cross paths in the forums.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Sounds like teh architects first job. LOL!
Then again I can't really comment on the $260 price but for teh arch to be off by $100 is ridiculous.
I also doubt you would want the job even if teh arch and client crawled back. Sounds like trouble.
Walk. Tell the homeowner to have the architect build it.
You are worth what you charge. Sell your service and your competency. There are always builders who will work for less than you. And there are always architects who can't estimate what they draw. $260 a foot for high end custom? Are you kidding.
Get out here your hired.
Good luck
$260/s.f. is pretty high. But then again, architects aren't wizards when it comes to estimates.
Go over the drawings again. Can't hurt to check your numbers. If they still add up to what you got originally, stick with it. Your own experience and history is worth more than somebody else's potentially huge mistake. And you're not WalMart. You're not stamping out these houses in volumes that allow for that kind of efficiency. They cost what they cost.
Besides, the architect sounds like a prima donna. If he's berating contractors without even trying to work with them, it'll all be uphill from here . . . or a long descent into a big dark hole.
this is coming from an architect, BTW . . . ;)
"$260/s.f. is pretty high."Not for a quality job on a high end design, it isn't
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
A lot of you guys were jumping on jeremy for mentioning sq ft price. You know I don't est or bid by sq ft either, but I never heard/read him to say that is how he figured it. He only said that that is how it came in after he did the fuiguring.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I agree and was compelled to write similiar.
1,350,000. 00 divided by 5400 sq ft = $250.00 per sq ft.
Just a figure that arose from the end result of the cost and specifications analysis divided by the square footage.
E
[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
Thank you for mentioning that point. I estimate for every hour spent, every nail driven and every board. The architect and client simply divide the total by the finished sq. ft.. I would never, never do a bid based on sq. ft. prices!!@!
Just curious if you had an update on the situation. I can't offer much advice, except for 2 things:First, don't trash their architect even if he's an idiot. They've already developed a relationship with the guy. They may realy like him regardless of how intelligent he is. Second - Have you pointed out to the just exactly what's costing them so much? Like they have some extraordinarily expensive tile that the archy called out in the kitchen, etc. They may have no clue why the bid came in so high. (in their minds)Let us know how it turns out, would ya?
That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.
Wow, thanks for all the feedback.
They are going to get some more bids at this point. They will then realize that they themselves and the architect have over designed the house to match there budget. I have no intention of burning the bridge with the arhitect, he will learn without my two cents on this one. And yes I explained everything on budget in great detail.
And for someone that left the post about using 2x4's and trying to cut corners thats not my style, why bother. Thanks
They are going to get some more bids at this point. They will then realize that they themselves and the architect have over designed the house to match there budget.
Or they will hire a bum who will burn them.
Good thread, and best of luck.
Eric[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
Jeremy, there's nothing for him to hammer you about, nor for you to feel betrayed about. He came to you for a price, you gave him one. He didn't like it. OK, he can look for another builder. What's the problem? Is there something more to the story you haven't told us? Hint: We always have 3-way meetings (with architect and client) early in the planning stages and discuss rough budgets, so nobody has any surprises at any time.
DG/Builder
There is nothing about the business end of this buisness that fires me off more than "Sq.Ft. pricing." As far as I'm concerned one should never be given or taken for anything more than a "ballpark estimate".
I finished a 4000 (+,-) sq.ft home last year that had over $60K worth of windows and doors. I built another 4000(+,-) sq.ft. home that had more windows and doors (same brand, same line) but with different options that only ran $35k. That's $15 per sq.ft. verses $8.75. One had $40K in finished floors, the other had about $28K. One had $30K in cabinets the other around $22K. One had $40K in milwork the other around $20K. That's what? $16.25 per sq.ft. difference in those few items. Around $65!. That's a lot a dollars! I certainly wouldn't want to be on the looseing end of the one project because I rolled out a price based on the other.
One house had a 2500 sq.ft. aviation hanger. I sure wouldn't have figured that in a sq.ft. price for the house. My cost was over $135K for that "garage". It may be o.k. to give a range of sq.ft. pricing so someone can get a feel for how much a project "might" cost. But it is totally unrealistic to tell someone you build for $150 per sq. ft. You have to price "each" individually.
When someone asks, "What do you charge per sq.ft.?" My usual response is, "It depends on the house and what you want in it." If they press, I tell them I start at $120 for what I consider basic materials. But there you go again. Who defines the perameters? What are "basic"materials. Who desides if a Delta faucet is an upgrade or a downgrade? What I consider basic materials, may be a mansion for one builder, or a shack to another.
I learned this leason years ago working for someone else renovating a kitchen. The cost was over $120K. The kitchen was way under 1000 sq.ft. We were building 2000 sq.ft. houses at the time for the same $120K. P
Price each job!
kcoyner
Don't know if this helps but were building Townhomes just south of you in Castle Rock, were in the $180 per Sq. Ft range. This includes All Costs land,streets water & sewer system, a $400K bridge, taps & permits
Bet you architect friend can find somebody to build it for $175 a ft. Find some Dirt ball GC with a Dog & a pickup with non english speaking crews (pay them under the table) carrys little to no insurance or WC.
Use a ton of the plastic windows, water lines,flex for HVAC, slap on some Phoney Stone ,30 year shingles, pour all cement 3", etc. etc.
Bet the architect has allready made $15 a sq for just doing the leg & paper work, not a bad gig if you can get it!
I've worked with architects before, and yes, part of the gameplan is getting the design to come in at the target budget. But what this guy is missing, absolutely missing, is that its HIS job to design to the budget and be realistic about it.
If he's off a couple of percentage points, maybe I'd expect him to ask questions that more or less seek to understand the differences between what his experiences tell him vs. what the builder is telling him. And some of the time, the two will find out they're on the same page and there were just some different assumptions going in. Trivialities.
I trimmed a house last summer that came in at $347/sf. And I wouldnt even call that one a mansion. Very detailed, to be sure, but what you're talking about, let me be the first to say I'd have cold feet going in that low. I do think you underbid. But, I haven't seen the plans, and I'm making assumptions based only on your first post and the info that is or isnt there.
By no means should you waver on the price. If you're comfy with it, they can take it or leave it. If they want it lower, ask which rooms they'd like to lop off the plan.
"A bore is a man who, when you ask him how he is, tells you." -Bert Taylor
I agree with the consensus. Stick with your price or raise it. I estimate jobs by separating each item (framing, masonry, windows, etc) out in time and material. From that final price I figure out the sq ft price for that job. Time after time I come out higher than the architects sq ft price. Your price sounds more than reasonable if not low. Remember its your sweat, liablility, and risk that is on the line.
That is what I would think would be logical, a line by line bid. Not a price per foot. That way it is easy to see if there are any misunderstandings. Perhaps teh original poster did just that but only let teh board know what the price / foot was?
It sounds like the level of quality the arch had in mind was a little different from what you were bidding. Also, as you know, a builder who is building one or two a year can provide a lot of additional value to the client in the details that don't get overlooked, as well as the ease of changes along the way.
Here in Boise I've been amazed at the number of "high end" houses that are being thrown up for pretty low costs per square foot, but it's a step below what is normally considered high end. Maybe this is becoming a popular trend?
This may not mean anything, but I do know some contractors in the northern portion of the front range who have been pretty hungry the past handfull of years. It wouldn't surprise me if many of them low ball a few houses farther south to pay bills and get their foot in the door, although most of those I know would have done that a few years ago.
$175 sqft sounds more like KB Homes than a well built custom.
Hang in there,
Don
Which brings up another point. "High End". That term is so over-used that it doesn't even mean anything to me anymore. Everyone you ask will tell you they're doing "high end work". Every help wanted ad is looking for "high end carpenters" or workers capable of "high end work".
You can even see it here in the forum. Everyone seems to think they're doing high end work. I kinda wonder if some guys even know what high end work actually looks like? Or if they know that it is possible to be doing high quality work, that isn't necessarily high end work. View Image
Good point Brian,
Expensive doesn't always mean "high end". Vince Carbone
dustinmckay View Image
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wm.Gotthardt
What all were you responsible for? The old bar was removed, and I framed the new bar from the ground up. 2x4 frame, 5/8" melamine on the inside, 1/4" paneling over 1/2" OSB on the outside.Due to some value engineering I had to fabricate the top on site. I milled the "leaner" rail out of 8/4 poplar. It's 1 3/4" on the inside, down to 3/16" on the outside.There are also 3 12" wide leaner bars around the pool tables.I'm also building the cabinets for an island, and the kitchen.Not exactly "high-end", but a fun project.
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I posted that on JLC a week ago. "high-end" gets thrown around a lot here, and there.
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It's only satisfying if you eat it.
Edited 1/25/2006 6:24 pm ET by dustinf
I would totally agree with you.
I am finishing up a full raised panel,retro fit wainscoating project.
I made every piece of the project in the shop, scribed, fitted, installed.
I am very proud of it.
High end?
Hell no - I should be expected to do this! Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Or if they know that it is possible to be doing high quality work, that isn't necessarily high end work.
It's a good point as to what exactly "high" refers to. Is my buttt too tall?
You are right that it's possible to be doing high quality work in a rental, or a middle of the road house, or any house for that matter.
Although, it seems that most would agree the combination of high quality materials, high quality carpentry, and custom designs = high end.
We've all seen many $1M semi-customs that are simply larger versions of rather ordinary homes, with rather ordinary construction and materials. Collectively, these aren't really considered high end as much as simply big?
As a finish carp, once worked for a builder who was picked out of the yellow pages to build an outhouse. Cedar, basic, classic outhouse, complete with halfmoon cutout in the door. It also happened to be sitting on 5,700 acres of land bordering a national forest and including a decent size mountain. Was the outhouse highend? Probably not, despite the multi-million $ price of the land and the owner's propensity to show up on site via helicopter.
He like the outhouse so hired us to build a small indoor stable/4-wheeler garage/ranch hand bunk house. No running water, no electricity. Still probably not high end.
Then we built the guest house, which was a good basic log structure, that wouldn't be unlike any other. It's awful gray as to what that would be considered. The location and view were something to behold, so perhaps it was finally to the high end mark?
The main house was certainly, by any standards, high end.
Perhaps it will take an attorney to draft up a workable draft of exactly what "high end" really means. :-)
i used to get smacked around by architects shopping their bids.. no more..
they will wind up with someone who will bring in their price, and then either change order it back past your original, or go broke and out of business
you know your costs.. those are yours, it's how you build.. if the architect and owner don't like your price ... move on
of course, if you had charged for your Proposal, you would have been compensated for the time you spent..
you would also either not have spent the time, or they would be committed to you
May all the stuff he spec's are "custom" made. that really runs up the price. example - stainless steel drop ceiling panels vs aluminim
Yep, that's the voice of experience talking. I'm in a totally different business but it's exactly the same deal. Give free detailed estimates and you do a ton of work for nothing, plus you lose business to the low bid flavour of the month. You need to recover the cost of all that free work, so it has to come out of the hides of your better, repeat customers, and soon you might lose them too.
Charge for providing detailed fixed-price proposals and you get good clients who are satisfied with the end result.
I'm sure you also realize that these types of HO's are the ones that will have you rip down a wall and move it 6" then rip down that same wall and move it again, then baulk at the change order. High end clients like this are ...hmmm...particular.
I'm in Massachusetts designing houses. When we have something of that caliber I have a go to guy that I always strongly recommend. This is a guy that can repaint a room 4 times and still smile. He has patience of steel. Of course I always recommend they always shop the plans around a little as well.
Last house that we did that was like the one you describe came in at 300 a foot. That was the mumber from my guy (actually he diddnt give a sq ft number but I interpolated) The other builder they took the plans to gave them 350.
The other builder just happens to be someone I was familiar with as well and needless to say they diddnt get the job but I called and asked how he got to his number if he diddn't mind me asking. He said through one conversation with her he added the PITA factor.
I had been working with these clients for months and let me tell you he is very perceptive.
Bottom line, your numbers seem right in line and DON'T back down.
This is a great line - "In all honesty, if I were able to lower my price to where you want to be, than I was ripping you off in the first place"
"I'm your huckleberry"
Edited 1/26/2006 5:46 pm ET by xosder11
I don't think a price base on sq. ft. means much. In my area 350k will get you a 2200 - 2500 sq ft plastic covered and glazed box.
There is no way that a 5,400 home built with any kind of quality can be had here for under a mil. I'd bet the average is closer to 2-2.5 and that doesn't include land which at the moment is approcahing insane levels.
I vote with the crowd here and say you know with 11 years experience what it costs you to provide your service and build the structure requested. I've never come out ahead trying to shave prices.
Ask the Archy if maybe he can't cut his price down to $2-3/sq ft and ease the price issue and see his response.
Perhaps the last time the architect put a plan out for bid he received pricing in a lower range. Here in Texas prices have gone up 30% - 45% for custom homes in the wake of the hurricanes.
Rather than hostility, I would be very diplomatic and suggest the architect explore the market. He may come back to you, and also refer future business when he gets educated about current market pricing.
As we practise and recommend, suggest to him you enter into three way (archtect / builder / homeowner) in the early stages. This can be presented to the client by the architect as "this is the builder I recommend", or this is a "builder / consultant" who will bid the project upon completion of plans. In both cases, there should be compensation for your time and valuable experience. The client should know that you can (with practical suggestions and guidence) help to keep cost down and / or give the HO more value for his money.
Yes, we used to frame the Garage and Porches for SF money related to living area only. Retired framer and now a custom builder? Same here.
I do not think it fair to mention SF pricing for comparrision (Houston vs Denver). I remember an article back in the 80s in FHB, and I think the location was Denver or perhaps another Colorado city. Some mobile park folks got together and bought the property from the Owner. A young architect built a home in his former mobile home space, and was pleased at $130.00 SF build cost when McMansions here were in the $45.00-$60.00 per SF range including the lot. The border patrol may be doing a better job now, but pricing is still significantly lower.
Good response TX.
I see why you have succeeded at what you do.
I've been in two situations recently where the architect thought it should be a lot cheaper. I do very detailed estimating and am very reliable when it comes to knowing costs, and I'm rarely wrong. So, in one case I actually took my laptop to the architect's office and we went thru my 16-page spreadsheet with more than 200 line items in it. On each page I asked him what he had 'estimated' for X, Y, and Z. By the third or fourth page, he started mumbling, and it was clear that his 'estimate' of costs was a simple one-line wild-#### guess, based on his sense of the scale of the job and similar jobs in the past and what he thought they had cost.
Bottom line: Ignore what the architect says it will cost, unless he can go thru a budget with you line by line. He promised the client something, and it's gonna be hard for him to deliver. If you're building a custom house per year you're doing great and although this house sounds like it might be the front of your portfolio if you do build it, it ain't worth drowning your business for it.
Oh, let me guess... he said if you can bring this one in there's lots more coming.
It is the architect who needs a reality check. Hew probably does sucn a small amt of work, his estimation books are ten years old. If jhe promised that price to the clients, then he can buiold it.
Some of these guys think it is their duty to beat the contractor up from the starting gate forward. Others have no concept of costs and try to make themselves look good by blamintg all their mistakes and wrong assumptions of the contractor.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
jeremy,
did you ever sit down with the architect prior to your working on your proposal and ask him either of these questions:
1. What do you expect the bottom line number to be ?
2. Did the client give you a construction budget ?
I have a feeling that if he said he expected the sq.ft. cost to be $175 sf you would have been able to say "No way can't be done" after looking at the prints for only an hour. That's the lesson in all of this. It's one I keep learning over an over.
The best advice here is for you to talk to both the architect and the homeowner and tell them that you feel your price is fair, and, in your opinion, the plans are overbudget as drawn (gently said), and that you recommend that they find another qualified builder to quote the job as speced.
carpenter in transition
I hate architects! Tell the owner to get some of the architects buddies to quote the job. Ask the owner to get the addresses of these comperable homes and see if in fact they are talking about apples and apples.
I did a very high end home at 16000 sf that came in under $100 sf.
The part that is rarely mentioned is that some high end decorators took over the project with fire taped walls, no moulding, no floor covering and no appliances.
I think about $2.8 million dollars later the folks moved in to their home with the nine car garage with tile floors.
Square feet are cheap. Rarely a good precurser of actual charges.
Don't argue with architects. They rarely admit errors or misstatements.
"I hate architects!" - Spoken like a true a$$. "Don't argue with architects. They rarely admit errors or misstatements" - Im trying to dodge the BS as it flies towards meLet me be even more frank with you: builders (I'm assuming you are one) like yourself who have a bad attitude towards other professionals in related fields, namely architects in this case, are more-often-than-not people who are frustrated time and time again by their own incompitance and shortcomings. You're either making a blanket statement that all architects are bad based on one or two bad experiences, which is unfair and short-sighted, or you do in fact repeatedly have a bad experience dealing with architects, which would lead me to believe it's you not them.Either way, it's a long uphill road for people with that type of attitude.I hate builders, or anyone for that matter, who muddy up the works with their bad attitudes, which is ultimatly doing a great disservice to our mutual clients, and then we all loose. Cultivating these hostile relationships is a huge detriment to our industry as a whole.Andrew
Edited 1/26/2006 2:44 pm ET by xosder11
Architects are there for a reason, just like builders are. Architects should draw the plans, period. Builders should build the house with the plans, period. I think that the builder should have free reign to change the plans at his discretion (provided that he stays within the code limitations) without having to consult or even converse with the architect. Problems arise when the two are mixed. The architects are too possessive about the way "their" house should be built. Architects should not be involved in the building of the house. Thats why there are builders.
In a perfect world, architects would know how to build and builders would know how to draw plans. I know more builders who can draw than architects who can build. Why is there always a problem? If the builder never calls the architect with a question or change, none of the problems would be blown out of proportion.
What gives the architect the right to impose his will on the builder? Nothing. Unless of course the builder got the job through the architect, which should be avoided.
Any takers?
The CM
All true. I just find it insane when a builder says I hate architects, or an architect says I hate builders. I'm not saying we all need to have a group hug or anything, but in a professional arena an attitude like that is a go nowhere attitude. It's like a judge saying I hate lawyers, or a doctor saying I hate nurses. It makes no sense to me, and pizzez me off."I'm your huckleberry"
Edited 1/26/2006 5:47 pm ET by xosder11
How do you as a designer prevent the problem the original poster faces, namely that the architect has designed a house that the owner cannot afford to build?
Unfortunately we have been involved in a number of project where this was the case. Currently we are working on a house where the architect was fired. I don't know definitively why but my very strong suspicion is that the costs were much higher than the owner had anticipated. While I know that the architect is not wholly to blame for this, it seems that some procedure should be followed to prevent such a problem. The project, which is quite complicated, is really suffering from the lack of a good designer and this has also not saved any money from the project cost. Of course.
We have worked on a number of other projects with this architect and would happily do so in the future. I am sure he is just as happy to be out of this one but nobody likes to leave a job half finished. Do you have any suggestions?
Honestly, I don't see how architects can be responsible for giving more than a broad range. It's not their job to stay on top of the volatile costs of construction. The mistake they make is not bringing in a contractor early. I was recently asked to give ballpark costs on a pair of projects for the same owner. That lets them know 'about' what they're looking at, and since the numbers sounded OK she called in her architect. Now, if the architect designs something way beyond my written scope and blows the lid off the project, it's their fault.
I agree that an architect can't know offhand what a building will cost. I don't even know myself. But this is information that can be bought and pretty cheaply too. Yet how many times have I been brought into a project at a conceptual stage to give a rough cost estimate? In over 25 years it has yet to happen.
We feel it is our responsability to design a house that falls within +/_ 10-12 percent of the clients desired prices. We explain to clients early on that the price of a house for a certain size can vary greatly based on the materials and fixtures and appliances, quality of construction, cost of materials, complexity of roof design, framing, foundation, etc.etc.. Usually, the first couple real meetings with a client are spent getting a feel for what they like. We always ask for a wish list of things they really want, and more often than not they will have a folder or binder with clippings and photographs of things they like. Sometimes a walk-through of their existing home can be very telling. Based on that, we will develop a program for the house with all of the rooms involved and what the approximate square footage of each one of those rooms will be. Then we tack on a percentage for circulation space and viola, we have a rough idea of what the square footage they are looking for is. Based on that sqare footage we can come up with a fee proposal for our design services.On many occasions we will meet a client who says "we want a house that is roughly 4000 feet and we want this and this and this - and you know they are really talking about a 5500 foot house. You need to nip that in the butt early. You need to give them a reality check right away. We also look at the quality they want, and in speaking with many builders whom we have good repor with, as well as past clients who have recently finised building houses of similar caliber if they don't mind us asking what they came in around for numbers. This way we can come up with a rough price per square foot. Throughout the design process, I've seen it over and over, a client will try to squeeze you for more square footage. They will add a butler's pantry here, and an extra powder room there. Before you know it they can add 500 feet real quick. We have to try hard to keep them in controll and make them very aware that they are driving the size of the home up and it will ultimatly cost them more than their original buget. They are certainly entitled at that point to reasess their own personal position and decide to change their budget and go ahead with the larger house. I think where many architects run into problems is they give in to the pressures to add these little extras but don't know how to tell the client that the house is going to cost them extra. Honestly, that's just me speculating.
I know you builders don't like to talk square footage numbers and I support that. At that stage in the game when you have a set of plans in your hands you are talking about something much more real then what we were talking about months ago, before we even put a pen on a piece of paper. Your dealing with a real house, and as far as the way you run your buisiness you should know what your price is to build that house...period.This system works for us, it's not rocket science, and it's not an exact science, but if we do our job correctly the clients will not be dissapointed when they go to build their home. I will point out again that I depend heavily on all of the builders who I've established good relationships with to keep in touch with constantly so I know how pricing is working out on their end of things. I need to always be in touch and up to speed. As a token of my appreciation to these guys and gals I always will reccomend them for these projects. I don't think that's out of line at all. I always encourage the clients to get bids elsewhere as well. I think I'm doing our clients a great service by standing behind my recomendation of reputable builders who I know are up to the task at hand. I sure as hell wouldn't want them selecting a builder out of the yellow pages. You guys know how important references are. And isn't it a very important aspect of being in business to network yourself with other professionnals-even those you may be in "competition" with. Isn't that what goes on here at BT? AndrewP.S. When a client pays for us to do a full interior design package with fixture selection, tiles, flooring, mouldings, mantels, etc. it makes it easier for both us and, I imagine, the builder to pin down how much it will cost to build the house. I have always thought that builders must love it when they get that full package as it makes less unknowns for them as well. Money well spent."I'm your huckleberry"
Edited 1/27/2006 10:35 am ET by xosder11
Well said, I am a custom homebuilder and take no issue with your statements.
I especially appreciate the fact that your cost projections are based on consultations with builders.
It seems that there may be a possibility that a builder or builder(s) could be paid consultants (per meeting or flat fee) for the creation of plans and specs in the architects process. Match home type / budget with the builder and his practical hands on real workd experience can more than help pay for his cut of the pie, even if the home is eventually built by others.
Yes, a whole package is great. But, many times we get specs and allowances created by arch / designers / clients that are off.
The arch set an allownce for floor covering for the house pictured at $18,500.00. My review determined a floor covering allownce of $36,000.00.
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I am sure that you are right about many architects not being firm enough in emphasizing the cost increases brought about by adding on extras. I know how easy it is to get carried away in the excitement of designing someone's dream.
I personally have no problem with an architect using square foot pricing to figure out his rough budget. Square foot prices in a single geographic area and for similar size and quality houses are a pretty good guide. I wouldn't use them for my own estimating purposes for anything but a ball park estimate. Since you update these numbers by comparing a number of builders and their recent work, it is plenty accurate for you.
Once again, I commend you for your attention to this sadly neglected problem, which from my experience is a frequent problem with many of the architects I deal with.
Throughout the design process
And that ties into a running debate/arguement I've been having with the CAD software people for many years now.
Between "Desktops" and "automatic BOM" and, now, BIM, all I hear is how autmatic everything will be. Balderdash. There's always something "left out" in any building's detailing. Doesn't matter if it's trade practice, or graphical convenience--it's not in there. The things that are not in our "model" are the tricky parts. Do some tilt up work--forget, just the once, to calculate in the sealant costs; that's a mistake you'll not want to ever make again (that GC is still mad he can't fire his estimator again, and again, and again . . . )
All of us are supposed to be responsible about these things. But, it can be tough if you have to start from incomplete assumptions. Just because the client has no idea windows need flashing is no reason to omit it (or to bribe his "gc" to leave it off; that dude is still claiming the 'gc' "ripped him off" . . . )
Oh well, if life is a stage, this is one tough play to star in, we all have to almost have everybody else's lines, their motivations, their reasons, memorized. This can be hard with the "audience" alternately cheerign & tossing veggies (if they bother to watch at all) . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
"I think that the builder should have free reign to change the plans at his discretion (provided that he stays within the code limitations) without having to consult or even converse with the architect."
"The architects are too possessive about the way "their" house should be built."
What's missing out of these two statements?
The client.
And mutual respect.
Edited 1/26/2006 7:47 pm ET by shtrum
Shtrum,
You are correct, but
I was being sarcastic about the architect and "their" house because it was never really theirs to begin with, its the clients.
I work as an owners rep so my clients and their desires and wishes always come before everything else. Thats automatic.
The CM
Understood, was just making a point.
You sounded a little bitter is all. We're all on the same team here. Besides, I don't think most of the architects who are members of this forum would be here if we didn't know when to shut up and listen to builders. ;)
Sorry if I came across as bitter, I didn't mean to give that impression.
We definitely are on the same team and if more draftsmen and architects had your insight there would be more of a team effort all around. I am very good friends with my architects and we work extremely well together to insure that we both satisfy the clients desires and construct what they pictured from the beginning.
The members of this forum are very educated professionals who I admire and respect. If we were all in the same regional area we would control that market. Wouldn't that be a hoot.
The CM
"I think that the builder should have free reign to change the plans at his discretion (provided that he stays within the code limitations) without having to consult or even converse with the architect."
"The architects are too possessive about the way "their" house should be built."
What's missing out of these two statements?
We can debate what's missing--but it's obvious (to me at least) that both have too much ego in them.
Pushing egos about is just the sort of thing that kicks people's rice bowls over, so that none of us eat (or the available food to eat is wasted--go hungry either way).
Now I cannot go with "builder should have full reign to changes the plans," not in the modern AHJ-run world. It won't matter how I'd come down on the arguement, it's just not going to be allowed. Which means, even if the builder makes a change "to code," how is he going to get the wet stamps & drawings & the rigamarole the Permit/BI office is going to want?
There's another, more than a little sensitive issue for designers--the limit of liability for defects of design is the life of the building (or such limits as the licensing agency, for licensed designers--not often shorter--sets). You go and put your signature and stamp to a set of drawings, and not find your "intent" in place, legally you could be between a very bad rock and hard place. The urges/imperitives that follow can be seen as "over possessive."
And, now, we are back to Ego again. OP is probably lucky he was not shown some price list off of a shell builder as a comparision ("Lukkit, U ijit, see, we'c'n git a whole house for $75/sf--U dirty, rott'n price gouger . . . ").Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Capn,
I do not have an ego problem. What I have are excellent working relationships with my clients, my subcontractors and my architects. Everyone knows their roles.
I bring my client to one of three architects to have their house drawn. The architects are just another one of my subcontractors. Once they finish their job, they are done. I do not require anything else from them. Their job is over. It is now up to me to build the building the way I see fit to build it. I have to warranty my buildings for five years. I upgrade materials to what I prefer to use in order to feel safe. I make changes to the building when necessary to accommodate client changes and drawing defects.
I have yet to encounter a building inspector who didn't love what I was doing. No stamps, drawing changes or architects approvals required. Why would any inspector flag a building that exceeds all requirements? Yes, the burden of responsibility falls on my shoulders for any changes in the plan as it should, but I have never, in over 30 years, had a problem.
The CM
I do not have an ego problem. What I have are excellent working relationships with my clients, my subcontractors and my architects. Everyone knows their roles.
See, you are then the exception that proves the rule. My intent was to share that, when the process breaks down, it's often the egos that get in the way of resolving the breakage.
I have yet to encounter a building inspector who didn't love what I was doing. No stamps, drawing changes or architects approvals required. Why would any inspector flag a building that exceeds all requirements?
Ah, well, I'm glad that works where you are--it's just not allowed here. All plans, residential or commercial are (now) required to go through the exact same process. You are required to get development approval, then permit approval. That creates the only documents the BI is allowed to check "against." It's then up to the inspectors to decide whether to let you procede with any differences versus either a Final or the CoO inspection (that varies depending on which city we wish to speak of). The BI is also allowed to stop the work, if it's not built to match his plans (and he's not really allowed much latitude to decide by the Development folk, either).
I can't say that the newer, stricter, procedure is much fun. It's been particularly tough sledding in terms of additional costs & delays, too--which muck up any estimates of final construction costs, too. The very recent change, where the project archy is now required to complete a building shell Energy Code compliance calculation is causing all sorts of Archy v. Mech Engineer "not me" issues, too. I've no good cure for it, either.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
The very recent change, where the project archy is now required to complete a building shell Energy Code compliance calculation is causing all sorts of Archy v. Mech Engineer "not me" issues, too. I've no good cure for it, eitherHave they developed software for that yet. In MA where I am they offer a software that makes the calcs easy."I'm your huckleberry"
Have they developed software for that yet. In MA where I am they offer a software that makes the calcs easy
Oh, yes, that part's all quite civilized, you go to US DoE, and download their COMcheck program. It will sort out all of the known situations city-by-city and apply the appropriate code.
That's not the issue. The issue is, that until 1 January, it was the ME's balliwick to sort out (and the equipment, and the lighting, compliances still are)--but this new deal is now solidly on the archy (who then has to spend unbudgeted time to go look up shell areas, composite R values, etc., and fill in the form--which, of course, has stopped the entire permitting process <sigh>).
It's in the transition time, where practice (and insurance/liability) work themselves out that the "not me" bandies back & forth. (That stinkin' ego thing again <sigh>.)Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
All plans, residential or commercial are (now) required to go through the exact same process. You are required to get development approval, then permit approval. That creates the only documents the BI is allowed to check "against." It's then up to the inspectors to decide whether to let you procede with any differences versus either a Final or the CoO inspection (that varies depending on which city we wish to speak of). The BI is also allowed to stop the work, if it's not built to match his plans (and he's not really allowed much latitude to decide by the Development folk, either).
We also have the same process. The permit approval is based on the original plans and specs and it is the BI who checks against this for differences. Are you saying that where you are, any upgrades (such as framing) would need stamped approval from the architect? Here, only the approval of the BI (after field inspection) is necessary unless, of course, the architect is in control of the job and he needs to approve of changes to his plans.
My point was that if the architect is not in control of the job there is no reason for him to sign off any changes. Only the field approval of the BI is necessary. Hence the statement:
I have yet to encounter a building inspector who didn't love what I was doing. No stamps, drawing changes or architects approvals required. Why would any inspector flag a building that exceeds all requirements?
It is very strict here in this area of Connecticut, it has been for the last ten years. I like it because it concentrates on the "cheaters" who would readily downgrade a framing plan to minimal standards in an attempt to save a few dollars.
I find it disturbing that your local authorities require the architect to provide energy code compliance data rather than just the HVAC installer. Good luck with that dilemma.
Later.
The CM
>Are you saying that where you are, any upgrades (such as framing) would need stamped approval from the architect? My point was that if the architect is not in control of the job there is no reason for him to sign off any changes.Perhaps you're talking about different kinds of changes. You talking about shifting a window, or moving a bearing wall? As a designer, I'd care about a bearing wall moving because my name's attached and perhaps there's an important reason for it to be where it was. A lot of changes wouldn't matter to me, but some might affect liability or have some other serious consequence. I'm all for field adjustments, but it's also nice to be kept in the loop, both for the reasons mentioned, and to perhaps learn something for the next time, or even to raise a red flag. Can't think of a good reason to NOT be informed of big changes.>I find it disturbing that your local authorities require the architect to provide energy code compliance data rather than just the HVAC installer. Good luck with that dilemma.That's the case all over, and has been for years. Energy compliance is as much about insulation, windows, etc than it is about the mechanical equipment. Most forms want the designer's name, not the hvac contractor's.
You are correct. Any changes that would affect the project from a liability standpoint would be discussed with the designer or architect. Major changes like bearing walls would also be an issue for a redraw or reapproach of the situation. I was speaking about small field changes and upgrades in materials such as replacing a triple 2x12 girder with a triple 14" LVL, or 12" TJI 360 series floor joists with 12" 560 series.
I also work with my architects during the design and planning stages (sometimes on an every other day basis) in their offices, working together as a team on everything from the framing plan to the interior finishes. This way a lot of details won't be missed and I can guarantee the client that their product has been thought through and will apply in the field. The "two heads are better than one" theory.
I also invite my "team mates" to visit the field whenever they want. I sell the projects to the clients this way and preach the "comfortable atmosphere, surrounded by a team of profesionals to realize their needs and desires" idea to them. It works well and applies not only to design but to all the other team members involved.
The CM
Edited 2/10/2006 4:32 pm ET by the cm
"I like it because it concentrates on the "cheaters" who would readily downgrade a framing plan to minimal standards in an attempt to save a few dollars."Your original statement from last week, as I remember it, was something to the effect that you thought that a builder should be allowed to build any way he sees fit after the design was permitted.
Your following comments make it plain that you mean that the builder should be allowed to upgrade but the original statement was alarming because it allowed for downgrades also.Where the problem comes in other than that liability can retro fire to the designer when you make changes, is that many 'builders' ignorantly think they are 'up-grading' a design when they are in reality ruining the structure.Like you, this thread is the first I have heard that the whole country is under a forced energy audit....
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Where the problem comes in other than that liability can retro fire to the designer when you make changes, is that many 'builders' ignorantly think they are 'up-grading' a design when they are in reality ruining the structure.
Very true, Mr. P, very true. I have unfortunately seen that happen many times.
Like you, this thread is the first I have heard that the whole country is under a forced energy audit....
It would be nice if anyone could elaborate on this subject further.
The CM
>Like you, this thread is the first I have heard that the whole country is under a forced energy audit....>It would be nice if anyone could elaborate on this subject further.I don't think that's an accurate characterization. Some places have some energy worksheets, but there's no universal approach. A client in OH is doing it be/c he gets tax breaks. NV requires the use of ResCheck. NY has their own form. NC has its own form, and has since 1998 when I submitted my plans. MO has nothing, as least in the county of my latest design. Same with TX."under a forced energy audit"? Don't know where that comment came from, but it's not true that I know of.
Cloud,
Hey! I'm in Mo!
Whereabouts is your design going in? Do ya have any idear of the construction schedule?
I'ld be interested in seeing a dome built.
SamT
>Whereabouts is your design going in? Do ya have any idear of the construction schedule?Roundabouts Exeter. Rough excavation already started. Well being drilled. The good stuff maybe April. You near there? I can make introductions.
That comment came form quoting me as I understood Txlanlord's comment that the whole of the USA was now required to do this nad your folow-up that you also do it.Seems to be not so, eh?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
as I understood Txlanlord's comment that the whole of the USA was now required to do this
Hmm, I wonder if he (& I) both may have erred in that Texas now applies a "national" standard.
DoE supplies the electronic form to fill out. The AHJ tells a person whether it must be or not. Some AHJ now specify "who" is supposed to--just not enough. In December, energy compliance was the ME's "thing" and went on the MEPs with his stuff. Now, all of TX has to include a shell calc for all commercial work, with each smaller AHJ applying their own rules on who's stamp or signature has to be there, too.
The MEs tell me that they are expecting this to become national here very soon.
I'm told that CoDallas now makes you get an independant inspection of your compliance too.
That suggest to me that there's a new certification requirement for Energy Code compliance. It (crassly, I admit) also suggests to me that it requires class time & testing for cash; not just time-on-the-job, so those initials "cost" money, which is why CoD would slough the responsibility off their BI crew and onto consulting inspectors. But, that is an admittedly crass and cynical outlook, too.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
The more the govt gets into the design and construction of residences, the more cynical we are required to become!
Now, ain't that crass!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
>nad your folow-up that you also do it.Ahhh. It's situational. Some locales require and some don't. Though I'm hearing more and more about the DoE software, such as ResCheck. And using it, it's not half bad. Not a big burden. I'm tickled that they recognize my wall assemblies...one less battle to fight. I haven't found it to be prescriptive on design...just makes sure that some standard is being met.
Glad to hear the rest of the country might be starting to catch up on energy efficiency <grin>. California has had standards in place since 1978; we are currently on the 2005 version, effective last Oct. (next version due in 2008).
It covers envelope (including windows, insullation, shading, etc.), HVAC, lighting, water heating. There are a number of software packages out there to do all the calcs.
Coming to a municipality near you soon - study up! http://www.energy.ca.gov/title24/2005standards/residential_manual.html
Here in BC the bureaucracy is on the increase also. Softcost, like engineers reports etc. are now more than 22% of the total housecost!!!
Yesterday on the news. Apartments and condos are going for 2000/sqft.
I think this bubble will burst
A new condo in my neighbourhood is selling for $3000/sf. The hole hasn't even been dug and 7 of 22 are already sold. That's $3.5 million for a one bedroom. I'm just biding my time waiting for foreclosure season.
For sure
We went through that in the early 80s. Thats why I sit snug in my 960 sqft home and go traveling
That sounds like a good plan.
And besides your corner of the country is quite nice, you should be outdoors anyways.<g>
UWS? Just North of the former Gulf Western building?
MO has nothing, as least in the county of my latest design. Same with TX.
That would be now changed since January. Arch must submit the "shell" Energy Compliance (not audit) with all plans for permit (and many municipalities now extending that to residential). Same sort of info as Mech Engs had to submit for lighting & elec equip, just now, there's a specified party to provide the "whole buliding" picture. It's brand new, ergo the "teething" troubles.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
CapnMac has elaborated on it recently. Maybe he'll chime in.Can remember doing energy calculations as far back as six years ago here in Ohio. At the time it wasn't required for every project, but a certain amount of projects were randomly picked by the plan reviewers. Those chosen had to have a worksheet submitted that showed minimum standards being met in terms of energy usage. It covered infiltration, figuring out lumen levels for lighting, etc.. Something broad and equitable for everybody would be fine, but what I saw was poorly administrated and confusing. Essentially, a big PIA.Don't know if it was a local or state condition. And have been out of the game for the last 3 years (design director at a non-profit) to know how it's progressed. CapnMac seemed to think it had gone national.
jeremy
I'm not saying your numbers are wrong for you but obviously they are wrong for either the customer or their representative..(the architect)
Now you must do repair work.
Take the numbers given and figure out what you can give them for that price.. if possible use the same square foot area just cut corners.. 2x4's instead of 2x6's etc.. OSB instead of plywood well, I'm sure you know better than me what to cut..
The reason you shouldn't let a sleeping dog lie is because of the future.
If the architect is wrong you don't want to point out his error, let him figure it out for himself.. If the customer is wrong they need an education or they will blab to all they meet about how high you are..
I respectfully disagree. "Take the numbers given and figure out what you can give them for that price.. if possible use the same square foot area just cut corners.. 2x4's instead of 2x6's etc.. OSB instead of plywood well, I'm sure you know better than me what to cut."If he builds them a lesser house, they will hate him for it, and fight him every step of the way. And why should he compromise his integrity / quality to cover the architects #### and fool the HO's into thinking everything is AOK. I wouldn't want to have to deal with clients who will be dissapointed every step of the way because they are not going to get the house that they wanted, and were led to believe they could have by the architect. You want to be building the house of their dreams, not a house that is so so. Besides the rift between where he is and where they need to be is WAY off, not just a little.I think that his best bet is to be honest with them. Just say that that is where you need to be and that you would love the opportunity to work for them. It's that simple. If the architect is wrong they are going to find out sooner or later. The natural course of events that I forsee are to come is that they will discover the architects error sooner or later.I wouldn't worry too much about them telling everyone how expensive you are. If your not doing anything wrong and your prices are in fact where they need to be, your doing a good job. Keep it up, and continue to actively pursue other projects."I'm your huckleberry"
Edited 1/27/2006 12:06 pm ET by xosder11
xosder11
I think you misunderstood. I didn't advocate building him a house for those prices, rather that he explain why his prices were where they are.
There is a great temptation to blow off those who fail to understand. If you do you lose the customer and whatever respect he had for you. plus he will fail to ever recommend you. and may go so far as to make negative comments about you..
If you take the time to educate the customer you stand a chance of winning a contract and no matter what your reputation won't be damaged..
Please go back and reread what I posted. Careful rereading will show that I said to show what could be built at the required budget.. To do so explains the required compromises. if they aren't of value to that client then you should explain that your reputation etc. won't let you build a shoddy house.
Edited 1/27/2006 2:36 pm ET by frenchy
Ok, I see it a little differently. I was under the impression that you were advising him to find ways to cut the corners and then go and build it. "I'm your huckleberry"
possible use the same square foot area just cut corners.. 2x4's instead of 2x6's etc.. OSB instead of plywood well
Yeah, I, too, have to disagree here. These are (or are going to be)stamped & sealed drawings; making those sorts of changes could be a major contract violation.
There's other deep water there, too. The AHJ has likely extorted an energy shell calculation (it's US law now) from the architect as a predicate for the permit. Go and change the wall and blow the insulation value, and bingo, end of the contract, and no CcO gets issued. Even if it's an honest mistake & you don't lose business over it, the legal fees fixing it are likely to eat any profit.
At 5400, and "high end" the clients probably have some high expectations for visible finished goods, which does not leave a lot of "slack" for plain 30 year shingles versus the architortural ones specified; nor for laminate in lieu of the stone counter tops. That leaves changing the not-visible parts; but that's tied up in a couple of engineer's worth of interlocking compromises. That does not leave a lot of room to "wriggle."
Yes, you are correct, that the builder-client relationship needs that give and take. But, since it's builder building client's architect's plans, it's as easy as three people trying to dance a box-step together.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
CapnMac,
Builders here seem concerned about details (Natural given their task) and miss the point.
What I proposed was not a way to build but simply a method to show the owner/ archectic that you are as competitive as the next guy. (assuming that is the case) That on an apples to apples deal you can be price competitive.
I did not as you seemed determined to jump to the conclusion, suggest that you actually build the house that way, simply show that if price was the first consideration you could meet those requirements.
Once money is out of the way you can find out what is really called for.. At that point you are free to decide to go further or not.
If you insist on your price and someone builds it to that price in the mind of those people you are to expensive.. You won't be asked to look at things in the future and you will have basically burned a bridge..
I'm making all sorts of assumtions here. first that you don't want to burn your bridges, second that you are price competitive, third that you have enough sales skill to understand that what people ask for isn't always what they want..
(surely by this time in your career you've found a person who want a simple house only to put in so many change orders the final costs rocket out of sight)
Frenchy,I totally get your point. I see many missed it. I think your original post "could have been more clearly worded" to get your point across. that is why so many "jumped" to the wrong conclusion.You have a great idea here. Thank youKirk
KirkG,
To that I freely confess.
My excuse, (such as it is) is my dyslexia..it is impossible ofr me to type in any manner othr than hunt and peck.. since the letters are constantly moving around (where'd they hide that J again?) I may lose track of the simple statement I was trying to make originally
To all those confused by me I apologize..
Back to Knots where you belong if you can't type!
1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
Edited 2/9/2006 2:45 pm ET by Ricks503
Ricks503,
I'm at a real impass since I'm building a home, but it's timberframed using hardwoods..
Builders here tend to think in terms of 2x4's and sheetrock while I tend to think of mortice and tenion joints. Here builders bang things together with nailguns and I carefully fit them together using techniques more often found in fine furniture..
Knots uses small pieces of wood while I use big 12x12's 20 feet long or 8x 18's etc..
Plywood, western white wood and pine dominate contruction here, while I use black walnut, cherry, white oak and hardmaple!
Somehow I can never resign myself to the idea of OSB, TGI's and sheetrock as fine homebuilding.
Your way is more art and substance - much the better choice. Yours will last centuries not decades - much the better and as you know, I was just funnin ya.
How is the house coming by the way? I have not seen any updates on the progress in a while.1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
Ricks503,
That's the trouble with the internet, very tough to catch the inflection that indicates humor..
progress was slowed this winter due to a kick back on my tablesaw that shattered my wrist and has me laid up for the past 9 weeks. I'm slow as it is and when I attempt to work with just one hand (my left one at that!) progress slows to below a crawl..
Thats right, I remember you posting that over on Knots.. I also had sent my best wishes for a speedy recovery then and offer them again.1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
Frenchy,
"kick back on my tablesaw that shattered my wrist and has me laid up for the past 9 weeks"
Yeow! Bud, that sux.
I hope it gets better (usable) soon.
SamT
Yeah, sorry, you made that more clear a few posts further along that I had not read yet.
(surely by this time in your career you've found a person who want a simple house only to put in so many change orders the final costs rocket out of sight)
Hey, that's no way to talk about my entire client list (but 2) . . .
And don't call me Shirley.
<g>Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
"I am serious... and don't call me Shirley"nice = )"I'm your huckleberry"
If we can have SNL quotes in the thread, I see no reason to not include Zanuck Bros lines . . .Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Frenchy:
If I understand this correctly:
>> If you insist on your price and someone builds it to that price in the mind of those people you are to expensive.. You won't be asked to look at things in the future and you will have basically burned a bridge.. <<
I guessing you are a great salesmen based on selling advice I remember you giving in previous threads. "shut up and sell" comes to mind. On the other hand building houses is a lot different then selling merchandise. If he underbids, he will likely have 9 months or more with little or no pay - it's not just a matter of one deal, one sighed contract that he didn't make money on... It's not like when a lumber salesmen at a new to me yard gives me a good deal on a framing package so he can get my business for future sales - that just means he did some paper work for free. Bidding a million dollar house low can put a lot of small builders out of business.
I hope I'm understanding what you wrote correctly...
Edited 2/9/2006 11:03 pm ET by Matt
Matt,
One of the troubles with the internet is that you are compelled to read every post in order to follow the discussion or clarifications..
Simply way too much to read, who has the time?
Anyway if you were to reread my original post and follow some of the discussions since you would have a better understanding of my goal. I never suggested that he actually build a house at a price that was too low, rather that he show that he would be capable of meeting a price if that was the customer's highest objective (it almost never is espcially on higher priced homes)
By showing that you can meet the customers first priority (price) you then have an oppertunity to meet his real needs, not just be eliminated from consideration because of a percieved need..
By not being eliminated in the first go around you have a chance to either be selected to do the job or remove yourself if it were to remain uneconomically viable. (you can't make a profit)..
Further by not being one of the ones removed because of price you will have oppertunities in the future , hence you should never burn a bridge..
I don't know where you are located but $260/sqft is a bit much around here.
$260/sqft is a bit much around here.
Ur too funny. No profile on you. Here is where?
If you actually READ the thread the op is in Colorado.[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
Pray tell, where is "around here?"
'Round here, $260 can be a starter house. One hour from here, it is a chateau!
got one for youhttp://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=68768.1
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
A very beautiful home coupled with outstanding craftsmanship, sir.
Outrageously authentic. Love the glass wall with the mimick of the railing pattern.
The CM
Maybe you did not noitice that he described a high end house.Every high end house I've worked on was a bit much
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
this price per sqft is such BS.
There are no standards to go by. Each house is different in design, specifications and location. All effect the price.
Try going into a car dealership and ask them : How much per pound?
Another simple example Draw a square (scale) 40 x 40 house. Measure the lin ft exterior walls. (160 lft)
Draw a rectangular house 20x80 (same sq footage) Very different lin ft exterior walls.
Get the picture?
A 1000 sqft home has 3 bedrooms (3 windows, 3 doors, 3 closets)
A 2000 sqft home with 3 bedrooms should cost double the one with 1000sqft???
I say it again Squarefootage prices are BS
that sounds reasonable, in Va. I would say that that price is maybe a little light. all of those extras really add to the price. covered porched with nice finishes can cost close to 150/sf by themselfs. so I would add to price given the chance, depending on the client
HCG
A full half of my dealings with architects reveal they don't know nearly enough to be involved in the profession.
full half of my dealings with architects reveal they don't know nearly enough to be involved in the profession
Well, a certain amount of 'brain damage' certainly seems requiste to do anything as daft as residential architecture as a profession (almost as idiotic as, say, commercial architecture).
But, then again, somewhere about half the contractors I've dealt with don't know enough to know what they don't know, either (and that idiot I see in the mirror, shaving, is high up on both lists, too).
You have to have enough ego to have the gumption to get into this business; and ego is one of the fastest ways to be out of it, too. <wishin' I had a better answer>Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I was only in the second line of the post, and stopped to cipher with my calculator to get $1.3mill at $250/sf. When I read porches & garage, I bumped that to $1.5 mill mentally.
The demo work I would not do at all, period, end of sentence, in the same contract as the construction. Why? One word: Remediation. Demolition is no longer a "throw away" item that tacks some percentage onto a construction contract. Anybody who does not realize (and properly inform their clients of it) is out of touch.
How much for demo? I don't have the first clue for Denver/metro Denver. Depends on what the dump fees are; and if the dump takes "construction debris"; and if the dump site needs a signature that there's no material that is (or might be) found to need remediation, etc. (If that sounds like hard-learned experience, it is.)
Now, if you were coming in at $1.7, and the "pencil" budget was $1.6-$1.65--then, there might be some reason for give-and-take. But, they are talking about 1/2 to 2/3 million in disconnect on pricing (and that before properly considering demo). I suspect that I'm likey to agree with other posters in that the designers need to pull their heads out of national Means-type numbers and actually look at local conditions (or be willing to pony up some signed & sealed materials taking responsibility for some big-ticket items).
Good point Capn. If the debris contains hazardous material then the dumping fee can get even more expensive. In commercial work hazmat abatement is often a staggering number.
Thank you.
It also occurs to me that since there's two tear downs, there's a potential issue with replatting, too (I've an AHJ which no longer permits building residences across property lines--or, they will, but the 15' setbacks have to be enforced, which is an underappreciated "design feature").
Hmm, given the brouhaha in other places about "tear downs," I might factor in some "injuction insurance" in case some too-much-time-on-hands, down-the-street, nosey-parker decides this new house would "ruin" the neighborhood . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
My experience giving out ballpark prices:
Met 1.time with client, his wife, brother-in-law. The client showed me his complete plans but without specifications for the interior and wanted to know "approximately" what it cost ("You are building these kind of homes"). I told him since I do not have any specs it is impossible to say. "Well, just something, with your experience"
I gave him a "ballpark" price. We signed a contract for Cost+plus fixed $ per month, not exceeding 12 month. He paid all materials and the trades plus my monthly fee. Everyone was happy. 8 months later I got served with a supreme court action demanding the extra $ 65000 over the "ballpark" number. He claimed I had given him (witnesses present) a verbal contract.
It took over a year and $ 10000 in legal fees to get the court action squashed.
I never give out ballpark prices anymore. Basically cost +. If they want prices they get it in form of a quote - No Estimates!!!- which is dated. I charge for the pricing but take this cost off if I get the contract. This eliminates all the tirekickers. Why should I do all this work just to see him go to another contractor trying to beat my prices?
"I gave him a "ballpark" price. We signed a contract for Cost+plus fixed $ per month, not exceeding 12 month. He paid all materials and the trades plus my monthly fee. Everyone was happy. 8 months later I got served with a supreme court action demanding the extra $ 65000 over the "ballpark" number. He claimed I had given him (witnesses present) a verbal contract."
Did your contract not have an 'entire agreement' clause?
not as a separate paragraph
The obligation of the client to my company was to pay all cost incurred for the client by the company plus the monthly fee. It was the client who decided what and when to purchase materials and labor. He paid all materials and labor as agreed. He never disputed the cost until 8 months after occupancy, which also prevented us to file a lien
Just as a sideline: His university buddy is a teacher in the Law Society. They probably would have used this case as a study and it would not have cost him anything. I, on the other side had to pay my lawyer to stop the action. It went to the proverbial 5 min to 12 situation. Then they withdrew the case. I was stuck with my lawyers fees.
This is the last clause in my contract, right above the signatures. Of course, I don't know how this might actually work in court, because I've never been there, but it's intended to prevent what you describe and other things as well. If I might ask, how did they get to 8 months after occupancy without paying you for most of your work?
6.6 Entire Agreement. This Construction Agreement and the other referenced Contract Documents represent the entire agreement between the Parties, superseding any and all prior discussions, negotiations, representations, or agreements, whether written or oral. This Construction Agreement may be amended in writing only, by Amendment or Modification. This Construction Agreement and the other Contract Documents shall not be deemed to create any contractual benefits or obligations between any persons or entities other than the Owner and Contractor. <!----><!----><!---->
they did pay ALL the cost and the fee. What they wanted was the difference between the costs that were mentioned in the first meeting and the actual cost which consisted of exactly what he got. They never held anything back. They were superfriendly, we did an excellent job, we were referred, the architect wanted us to do some more work for his clients - and then the bomb.
Since this was a straight cost (no percentage added) there was no incentive for me to increase the cost of the project. I got paid a monthly Management fee. It did not matter to me if they spend 50 000 or 5 million
See what greed can do to you?
good clause ,daveMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
thanks, excellent wording. Will use it the next time for sure.
This is a pretty long thread. I got here late and I didn't read many of the responses, but I read all your postings within the thread.
The level of detail you describe is a very high end house. I'm a little confused as to how the square foot prices you state were calculated, but I gather that it might be heated square foot. That being the case, I think you underbid. I'm being serious.
My bossman "builds" and sells what are considered medium high end homes in the $185 - $250 a heated sq ft range. Sales prices range between from 700k to 2 mil. These houses are of similar size or slightly larger to the one you refer to, but do not have the level of detail you describe. A few examples: very little stain grade molding - maybe in the study. Everything else is painted, Limestone accents in the brick work? - what's that? :-) Pre-cast cement is the "fancy" stuff. Nearly all brick work is running bond with maybe a soldier course and something fancy around the front window... Average house has 3 or 3.5 baths. Our estimater today told me the most since she was there was 4.5.
BTW - if you plan on hanging around here, how about filling your profile at least with your location.
Maybe offer to build on a cost plus basis?
BTW - I'd ask to tour the $180/sq ft the Archi said was recently completed. I'm sure the new HO would love to show it off. I'll bet either the archi miss-represented the cost of the house, or it has no where near the detail level that the prospective project has. Either that or you live in an area where skilled craftsmen make $11 an hour.... Once you take a first look, and somehow obtain the real info on the finances if this still looks like a game you might want to play in, maybe take the customer for a look.
Edited 2/9/2006 7:35 pm ET by Matt
We run into this alot. Many guys are out of touch w/current pricing. Have him supply the homeowner w/ another contractor's price.then offer to sit down w/ them & review both estimates side by side &if you find big differences in your numbers,it gives you a chance to either review your price or present the client a reasonable explination for why your work is worth the extra money. I have found this helpful in many ways, either you find they are not providing the same material or labor,also have found areas that we were under pricing work as compared to other contractors in our area.
If this does'nt work, walk away! & remember the arch's name for future reference to stay away from.
Very good point. I have been in a few situations like that and the other guy was higher. In fact, if I could get an architect to admit it, I think I'm in that situation right now. The entire thing was drawn and permitted based on his 'estimate' and I was higher than that. They decided to shop and the project has never started, which tells me I was not the highest.
good luck on getting him to admit to a mistake, Stick to your guns & be prepared to walk away or most likly rebid if they can't afford to build as spec. Some times offering to do some hand holding during the estimating has resulted in some good faith,which pays off in the long run.I have gotten referals from people that used other contractors, but were impressed enough that I took the time to explain & work w/ them. But be sure to to charge for additional time spent pricing the job to fit their budget. Most people don't fight when you explain how much time you put into your estimating.
Well, I spent a bunch of pre-con time on that one (free-con, actually) and did write up about 15 items that they could alter to save money. No doubt they took that list shopping to other contractors. Hopefully they end up with the cheapest corner-cutting hack and get bent over.