I’ve got a strange situation on a job which is giving our hardwood flooring sub nightmares. We were called to repair an 8″ wide plank hardwood floor that was installed in a new home about 6 – 7 years ago. The floor in the kitchen and breakfast area was damaged by water about 2 years ago and the repair is now just happening. The 8″ wide boards were custom milled as “select” from a local mill when the house was built and we used the same mill to make the 300 sq. ft. we needed for the repair. The original installer was not available to do the repair (he has helped with some info), so our regular sub agreed to do the job. We are sanding and finishing only about 50% of the hardwood on the first floor (BIG house), so stain matching was necessary. The problem is that the stain, Minwax Red Oak mixed with Minwax Special Walnut has soaked deep into the open pores in the wood and is bleeding into the sealer after the sealer is applied. The bleeding occurs on both the new and old wood, but did not occur when the house was built. The first time the floor was finished, the stain was allowed to dry 48 hours before the sealer was applied (I think this was a latex modified product). Shortly after the finish was applied, stain which was apparently not dry deep in the wood pores, bled up and into the finish. After 3 or 4 more days, the decision was made to resand the floor and repeat the procedure allowing 72 hours for the stain to dry, this time sealing with an oil based product. The problem has occured again. This time we have screened the sealer coat to try to remove the bleeding, which has been somewhat effective although it is apparent that the screening is removing some of the stain and causing areas to be lighter than others, much to the dismay of a patient but weary homeowner. This is where we are as of today. Anyone ever suffer with a similar situation ?
carpenter in transition
Replies
Tim,
I add a little Minwax quick dry PU to the stain to "set" it. Try a test piece.
KK
Tim,
I believe that the cause of your stain bleed problem is that the finish you are using is re-dissolving the stain pigments. This puts them back into suspension and they migrate into the finish. This would occur no matter how long you allow the stain to dry if the finish you are using contains a solvent for the stain’s pigment.
The resolution to this problem, if indeed this is the situation, is to….1- switch to a different finish that doesn’t contain a solvent for the stain or 2- apply a barrier coat of shellac between the stain and the finish you are using now prior to applying any of said finish. If you don’t want to significantly alter the color of the floor, make sure this is “blonde” or clear shellac and not orange shellac.
If the finish you’re using is an oil-based poly, it would be best if you used a de-waxed shellac to ensure the best bond. De-waxed shellac is available in flake form and requires that you dissolve it in denatured alcohol and allow sufficient time for it to totally dissolve prior to using it. You can remove about 85% of the wax from the common types of pre-dissolved shellacs that are available in hardware stores by pouring it into a glass container and allowing it to set undisturbed, out of the sun, for a period of time and then siphoning off the clear portion above the wax that’s settled to the bottom. But this takes time; perhaps 6 – 8 weeks to get out all of that wax.
You might get by with doing what’s already been suggested, by adding a bit of finish to the stain to set it so that it won’t re-dissolve. If you’re using a latex stain, I’d make sure that it’s water borne poly that I added to it.
Goldhiller, I suspect Tim's problem is a combination of an open pored timber, i.e., oak, an oil based pigment stain (Minwax, slow drying) possibly over-generous application of the stain, and perhaps the order of work.
Oak, being open grained, air gets trapped in the pores. The stain sinks in, and lodges in the air pockets, and doesn't fully cure. Minwax pigment stains contain an element of varnish as far as i can tell. The air pockets in open grained woods can cause bleedback resulting in roughly circular or raggedly elliptical 'tide' marks. Is Tim applying the stain and then wiping it off thoroughly whilst still wet to remove the excess? If not, this can leave a residue of partially dried stuff in the pores. An oil based varnish can reactivate the residue, and if the varnish is wiped back and forth, it can actually 'strip' the underlying stain and 'puddle' it about.
If the wiping off is being done correctly, then, as someone else mentioned a barrier coat can be applied. Zinnser(sp?) make a de-waxed ready to go shellac called Seal Coat designed specifically to form a barrier coat. It can be thinned out with alchohol and gashed on lightly to seal those troublesome pores. Let it dry, sand lightly to remove nibs and any raised grain, and apply the oil varnish.
Another trick, although it's too late now, is start with the Zinnser Seal Coat thinned out about 80%± alchohol, and 20%± Seal Coat and gash this lightly onto the bare wood. Let it dry, sand reasonably hard to expose the bare wood again on the top surface, tack rag or blow the dust off, and apply the pigment stain. The air containing pores are now sealed, or should be, but the dye element of the pigment stain dyes the exposed wood, and the pigments lodge in the open grain, but can't lodge in air pockets--they're sealed remember. Wipe off as normal, add another thinned out coat of Seal Coat, sand lightly, and finish the job with an oil varnish. And another approach is to start off by dieing the wood, then sealing, then applying the pigment stain, etc..
Of course, I could just be opening my mouth and letting my belly rumble because I'm thinking as a furniture maker with some experience of polishing the stuff, and not thinking as a floor finisher. I've never finished a floor in my life, so feel free to ignore my contribution. Slainte.RJFurniture
No offense taken to your offerings and comments……….but
Just so you know, I’ve been building custom furniture and cabinetry for a living since 1974. Besides building for walk-in customers and clientele, we did the national art show circuit for years and sold our wares through galleries throughout the country, as well. I’ve also written several articles for nationally renowned woodworking magazines, which were published.
I must admit, however, that my contribution to Tim on his post was influenced by fatigue.
I didn’t want to get into a long arduous explanation at the time of all potential causes and so, for my own “convenience” assumed that the stain had been applied, excess removed, and allowed to dry properly. Based on these assumptions, I offered him the only apparent cause of the bleed back problems he is suffering. At a different hour of the day, I may have included all possible causes and not assumed quite so much.
And yes, I know of all you speak concerning oak pores and the like. At the time of my post and fatigue level, I didn’t notice the involved species in the post topic. Nonetheless, after seeing the follow-up post this morning, it doesn’t change my assessment as the applied stain should have been dry, even at the high humidity levels, in the 72 hours that was allowed for drying. If what Tim has told us is true, he’s done nothing questionable in his stain application. I, too, have used Minwax stains innumerable times over the decades, as you can imagine.
Unless new information is forthcoming, I’ll gladly stand by my initial assessment.
I’ve seen the phenomenon to which I spoke concerning re-dissolving of dried stain pigments resulting from the “wrong” combination of stain/dye and finish a dozen times or so over the years. Twas my intention to give Tim some help without writing volumes and I hope that’s what’s occurred.
By the by, it was indeed I who suggested the shellac barrier coat.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
"Just so you know, I’ve been building custom furniture and cabinetry for a living since 1974. Besides building for walk-in customers and clientele, we did the national art show circuit for years and sold our wares through galleries throughout the country, as well. I’ve also written several articles for nationally renowned woodworking magazines, which were published."
Hey, Gold, your biography is remarkably similar to mine, ha, ha. <g> I wasn't aware of any potential offense on my part. I was merely expanding on your pertinent points to give Tim some other aspects to consider. Slainte.RJFurniture
Sgian,
Since your reply was addressed to me, I go the direct impression that you thought I needed a lesson about oak pores.
I remember this occurring several times before. For instance, on one occasion when I posted over on Knots to a fella who wondered whether it was safe to bring furniture with wormholes into his shop. Same sort of thing happened there. I got a reply from you and you began "teaching" me about furniture insects and their life cycles.
As a result, I thought perhaps you needed a brief biography, so that you could avoid making these sorts of mistakes in the future.
I always try to pay attention as to who I'm replying to, in order to avoid embarrassing myself anymore than I normally do around here or giving the wrong impression. If I'm in a big hurry, it's easy to make this kind of "addressing" mistake. It would be most effective if you did the same it appears, as you say this last post wasn't intended for me. Otherwise, if your reply should be "really" be for me at some time, how will I know ?
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Gold. I didn't make a mistake. I responded with your name in the 'reply to' box on purpose thus enabling people to link to your post if they chose too. I was adding thoughts to the train you'd started. There have been several 'is it safe to take worm holed wood or furniture into the workshop?' threads over the years at Knots. I don't recall the particulars of any of them now, nor which ones I contributed to, but I do handle that circumstance in the way I've always done. I don't think I've ever seen you embarrass yourself either here, or at Knots,----- but I do it all the time. Slainte.
Understood. No harm done, I trust. Hope we won't have any more misunderstandings in the future as this isn't what the board is here for and is why I choose to post anonmously. I better understand your reasons for replying in the manner that you do now, but still I'll continue my personal practice of responding directly to the intended. This way, I don't run the risk of appearing to be posturing. Each to his own, I guess.
Have a good one.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
I don't believe there's been any harm done, and certainly nothing you've said here bothered me. Slainte.
Tim
Try taking this question over to the folks at Fine Woodworking
Mike
It's O.k. to think out of the box, Just don't walk off of the plank!
what sealer? what varnish?
You do not say what species of wood was involved. I have used minwax stains many times. They are oil based dye stains with very little pigment, especially the Red Oak color. Most of these types of stains go on at a rate of about 1000-1200 sf/gln. What was your method of application? Did you rag it on rather thin and dry it off fully with dry rags immediately? Or did you use an old method of leaving it on wet for ten minutes and then buffing it off with steel wool pads? What were the weather conditions during drying times? GW
Greg
The floor is red oak. The stain was applied with a wet rag and immediately wiped off with a clean rag. Temperature was 85 -90 with no rain and humidity levels around 85 to 90 %. Eastern PA As far as the exact brand and type of the sealers, I can find out tomorrow during a site meeting.
carpenter in transition
Tim,
The most important question: What grit was used as a final cut? I always water pop my floors the night before finishing, then burnish to 120 before stain.
Ditch
Tim,
I suspect that what I’m about to suggest has already occurred to you at this point. It’s best if one is using a combination of stain/dye and finish with which you have no previous experience to do a test of the combination on a trial piece of wood of the same species. This way, you can minimize the likelihood of surprises or problems on the “real deal”.
Hope you get this problem resolved and all is well in the end.
Unfortunately, 90% of learning is a negative experience, it would seem. But these are the lessons that stick with us the rest of our lives.
I really appreciate the response to this post. It is rare that we have a problem on a job which stumps us all. Our floor people spoke with a chemist/consultant that deals with Minwax (Minwax themselves were little or no help) who expressed surprise that this hardwood flooring company had never experienced severe stain bleed in the history of the company. This individual described it as a more common problem that happens more often with particular stain colors like red oak, red mahogany and provincial. He told our installer that the bleeding will stop. Eventually. The homeowner wants the floor sanded bare again and that is the route we are going to go. We attempted to hand screen the heavy bleed areas which worked temporarily but caused new problems. The screened areas lost the bleed for a few hours and then it came back and unfortunately some spots were overscreened to the point of a loss of stain color. Thus the resanding. The amazing thing is that where the bleed occurs, you can wipe the surface (it has a coat of sealer on it) with a clean rag and get stain pigment on the rag.
The floor as I mentioned before, had a water based sealer applied the first time which caused the exact same problem as the oil based PU sealer the second time. Strange. It seems that the consensus is to add quick dry oil based PU to the stain to get it to set. I'm sure this will scare our finisher. Any thoughts on a mixing ratio ? It will take about a gallon of stain to do the job. The thought of applying dewaxed shellac over such a large area is a concern especially when it comes to the PU manufacturer and possible adhesion problems.
On a final note, the floor has hydronic heat tubing beneath the 3/4" subfloor. The heat has been off but the AC has been on to keep the air moving and the humidity down. It is our feeling at this point (50F evenings are upon us) that the heat should be turned on to assist getting the stain to dry after we resand. Thoughts ?
carpenter in transition
Tim,
I’d think that something on the order of approx. 4-6 ounces of PU added to a gallon the stain should suffice for sealing the stain/dye down. Mix it well prior to applying. Minwax, by the way, is a stain and dye combo product. That’s why the visual results are different than those of a “just stain” product. This also means that there are more potential problems with interfering contained solvents in finishes.
If you’re using an oil-based poly product, there should be no adhesion problems with the dewaxed shellac. That’s why I was emphatic about telling you to use de-waxed product. Regularly available wax bearing shellacs can interfere and cause adhesion problems.
I, personally, can’t remember having a problem using a Minwax stain product and following up with an oil-based poly product even in high humidity situations (80-90%) given that the stain was allowed to cure 24 hours. Initially, I thought you might be using a catalyzed varnish product for your finish and this would carry more potential problems as regards solvents in the finish dissolving the dried stain/dye pigments..
Somewhere there’s an explanation to this phenomenon that you’re experiencing. I’ve got serious reservations about those low temps at night. This is new info for me. Those 50° temps are well below what’s recommended/required to dry and cure a poly product. I think this is why you’re able to wipe stain/dye off on a rag. Likely, in my mind, what’s happening is that the dye is re-dissolved, migrates into the finish, and then because of the low temps is able to make it all the way to the surface. The vapors coming off the surface of the very slowing drying finish are supplying it with enough solvent to keep it wet also. Hence, it’s available for your rag.
I’ll chew on this a bit more and if I think of something, I’ll post back.
I’d highly recommend that you get hold of a copy of Bob Flexner’s “Understanding Wood Finishing”. It can save you from making many costly mistakes and help insure that you get the results you’re looking for on any particular project.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Stain bleedback on red oak floors is common when staining is not performed properly, because of it's open grain structure. Wiping a thousand sq. ft. of boards down is a lot different than staining a piece of furniture. For one thing your arms get tired.
Red oak, or any other open grain, porous species has to be closed up a bit, hence the grain raise 'water popping' technique and subsequent knock down with finer grit paper. The most open part of the grain will accept more stain and 'boil out' later. Some finishers will machine buff the stain with white pads or steel wool pads before applying top coats.
This bleedback can also occur when the stain isn't wiped aggressively enough or rags aren't changed out frequently.
Hope this helps.
Ditch
That's some good advice and thinkin' on your part concerning this problem of Tim's. I'm assuming, because he stated such, that all is being accomplished as it should and that's not necessarily true when it comes to removing all that excess stain from a large and fatiguing area.
Hope he posts back when they get this resolved and we can get a notion as to what they think was really the cause. Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Gold,
Your idea about sealing with shellac is a good one. There is a new de-waxed shellac by Zinsser called 'seal coat' which I have used a few times over floors heavily contaminated with wax. I used this product to seal out any wax which may have remained in the open pores and between boards. It is compatable with water or oil borne finishes.
Ditch
Ditch,
Thanks for the info on the Sealcoat. I've heard of this a couple of times in the last month, but haven't had need of any yet. However, ..........I've got a large mean job coming up that will require the use of a large quanity of dewaxed shellac as a barrier coat and this sounds like a much more expeditious route to that acheivement. I shall give it a try.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Well, I finally figured out why this floor didn't have bleeding problems when it was originally installed. The installer stained the floor with a mix of 50 % Waterlox Tung Oil finish and 50% Duraseal dye stain. The stain/finish mix was applied with a brush to the bare wood, 3' to 4' at a time, allowed to dry briefly, and then was hand burnished with burlap. The floor was then recoated the following day with McCloskey's GymSeal and again the following day. We have been applying Minwax stain out of the can directly to the raw wood. By blending the tung oil finish with the stain, the bleeding problems are eliminated. Are all of you guys burnishing your stain/finish mixes by hand with burlap ? Unbelievable........
carpenter in transition