We have a project in framing and it seems that the framer and I are not getting it right. The total rise is 11′-6 3/4″ (or call it 11′-7″). I want to do 19 risers (@ 7 21/32″ ea). The stair is in an octagonal shaped area and runs along 4 of the 8 walls. Two sides of the octagon are open (to the hallways)and another is closed off (wall). One side is a doorway to a Powder Room. A side that is on the stair side includes a opening to a hall and off to the side is a door to the laundry room. Head height for the 8′ high door there is a problem – largely because the framer is building landings with 2×12’s where the winders are (in the connections of two sides of the octagon). I had figured for a typical stringer (or carriage) there – not a bunch of structure running horizontal (he has essentially a frame landing; as a floor, installed). Are there good alternatives? Are there good replacement carriage designs for such a problem? I am the designer – so I may be paying for all this. Can carraiges come together at this joint with something like a 4×6 as a joist under the carriage (supported on each end of course). The width of the stair is 3′-6″ now, and there is a center carriage. In the drawing; some walls removed for clarity. And the only door that is a problem is the most visible. Wall framing under stair also not shown.
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See the thread in this forum about the circular stair. You will find it if you look for posts by "Riverman."
It looks as if your stairs should have been well-planned in advance, perhaps as having a welded steel or steel-reinforced inside stringer. I am not sure of what kind of wood-only joinery would link those octagonal sections with structural continuity.
Left up to the framer, you are getting what you are getting now.
Good luck!
Yep, you got somewhat of a pickle there.
Having said that, it will help a great deal if you and the framer quit thinking of the treads and risers as simply resting on top of the stair framing, but instead make them structural members. The more structural the treads/risers can become, the better.
To get that mess to work out some of the risers need to carry a cantilevered load and help support the stringer on the exposed (inner) side. Some risers can, some can't. The stringer can't be supported simply at the ends, but the stringer sections on the inner side still need to lock into each other quite well. Some stringer ends are well supported and some aren't.
There are also walls that seem to be in position to conseal a cantelivered beam or two, adding some much needed support.
Some threaded rod epoxied here and there, along with some nice chisel work, will help to make tighter connections. Unfortunately, it's something that needs to be messed with to get it to work out right, and a healthy dose of experience in such would help more than I can say.
I'd round up some some hardwood for portions of the framing that need the most support in odd directions. It's easy to build oddball spongy stairs with pine. Construction adhesive is out except for the easy sections, although PL premium is structural and wouldn't be bad. The more corners you cut the worse the stairs will be, especially a year or two down the road.
It also makes sense to incorporate some steel supports and angled brackets to tie things together well, but if your framer isn't used to combining materials his face may turn white and he'll simply pass out trying to make sense out of it all.
The up side is, I can see it working out just fine. The down side is, it's going to cost a bit.
I probably didn't make the point clear when referencing, "making the treads and risers structural." The treads and risers can be any thickness as long as the visible portion looks normal. A center stringer isn't needed if the treads/risers are beefy enough.
If it were me I'd let the framer off the hook since he gave it a go, and simply hire a good stair guy to take care of it from framing to finish.
Best of luck!
Come out to Las Vegas trout - you could have some fun, and I can show you around, and you could get the joy of helping us out of a bind. Your advice is also very good - and seriously, I thank you for that. If you are interested in a trade of services - I would love to talk.
Unfortunately, (fortunately) I'm neck deep in 50 hour work weeks until August, with two other 6 month projects penciled in after that. :-)
I do enjoy oddball problems like yours and I'd seriously consider dropping down your way just for a change of pace if I could.
Here is a pic from the thread I had referred you to earlier. It is not meant to show what you should do . . . this stair has different geometry and is unsupported on its inside "stringer."
But it shows how welded square tubing can be used in stairbuilding. Of course, it all gets wrapped in wood finish.
View Image
I may be reading your post wrong ...but did you say you had wall framing under the stairs??? if so what is the prob with using conventional routed stringers
I need to know how they work in this condition - that is at the winders. Any ideas. We will be talking steel tomorrow.
if there is walls under each side of the stairs then you can use housed stringers easier than cut stringers if you get a good stair company the will build what you want
I build a lot of stairs and i don't see it being to diffcult well i say that fast
check out these guy's they build stairs in canada and ship to the usa
http://www.stairworld.com
You gotta know this, but maybe not.
Your half-circle done in quarters (4 sides of the 8) is a great idea on paper, but if you want your stair stringers to track it, like you show in your picture, you need steel. It's that simple.
You know it and we know it.
A laminated wood stringer works because it can have fiber continuity, but with your angle breaks, you can't do it in wood. You need the strength of a welded steel assembly.
See what your design hath wrought?
Find a good welder, and carry on. Show us the pics when you're done. Better yet, show us a complete pictorial, like Riverman has done.
Thanks Gene - and I do see what my design hath wrought. This should be a lesson to anyone who works on someone else's existing Floor Plan that they bought somewhere. This stair is the only part of the house that my office did not re design for the client. I have learned from it, and after much thought over the weekend - my plan is to consult with a stair expert in Texas and then a steel guy here. I am let down that the Contractor did not look at the stair earlier, and that once he was faced with a problem, he just put it off on the framer. Luckily I started reading FH back when I was a carpenter's assistant in Florida and where my boss taught me to do the math on a stair before building it. I have a short memory. I also assumed the house of plans stair would be easy for the builder to build. My mistake !