Replies

1. 
   allenschell2 | Dec 05, 2004 05:32am | #1

   Its funny about stairbuilding tools, I have been building stairs every day for 10 years and the only special tool I use is a rail bolt driver from McFeely's. I used to use a pitch block for marking upeasings for the cut but I don't even do that anymore. I think some of that stuff might suit the casual stairbuilder better.

1. 
   gordzco | Dec 05, 2004 07:08am | #2

   Allen.

   How do you fasten a wooden newel post on a concrete slab?Gord

   St.Margaret's Bay NS

1. 
   jerryt | Dec 05, 2004 02:36pm | #3

   Try using a #3005 keylock fastener. The installation order is reversed when mounting over concrete or ceramic tile. They work well for me.

   In other words the plate would be recessed into the newel and the lag would mount in the concrete.

    

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1. 
   Hazlett | Dec 05, 2004 03:34pm | #4

    To all,

   just as an "aside"

   that young man in the article pictures working with Gary Katz is one lucky puppy.

   At that age I would have sold my mother into slavery in exchange for an opportunity like that!!!!!

   Stephen

2. 
   Lunicy | Dec 09, 2004 05:29am | #18

   who makes that keylock fastener?

     

   Can't I go 1 day without spilling my coffee?

1. 
   JerraldHayes | Dec 09, 2004 07:36am | #19

   There are few different companies make them but by far the dominant manufacturer is L.J. Smith (scroll to the bottom of the page and look it up under Installation Hardware & Tools) If there is a stair shop in you area you they might carry them in inventory and you can also sometimes find them at some of the better lumber yards and regardless of whether they have them or not they should be able to order them for you.

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2. 
   jerryt | Dec 09, 2004 01:15pm | #20

   I get mine locally at Lowe's or the" Contractor yard" which Lowe's used to own until they sold them.  Your lumber yard can order them from" L J Smith "or "Crown Heritage" which is a stair line put out by East Coast Millwork Dist. (ECMD)

   I am not an expert stair man like these other guys, but they work surprising well for me when the situation calls for it.

   Ya'll have a great day

2. 
   allenschell2 | Dec 05, 2004 05:07pm | #5

   Is the newel being attached to the first step?

1. 
   gordzco | Dec 06, 2004 05:24pm | #6

   Hi Allen, I'm asking the question because I'm curious. There is another thread about attaching a newel post to concrete and it would be great if a stair guy would weigh in on the discussion.

   http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=51006.1Gord

   St.Margaret's Bay NS

1. 
   JerraldHayes | Dec 06, 2004 05:39pm | #7

   gordzco - "Hi Allen, I'm asking the question because I'm curious. There is another thread about attaching a newel post to concrete and it would be great if a stair guy would weigh in on the discussion."

   Hey Gord I'll confess that I got a chuckle reading that. Did you really mean to say "it would be great if ANOTHER stair guy would weigh in on the discussion." or didn't you know I was a stair and railing guy. Paradigm Stairs & Railings.

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2. 
   gordzco | Dec 07, 2004 07:54am | #13

   No offence intended toward you Jerrald. Its just that I've spent most of the summer setting chemical anchors into concrete slabs, walls, also into brick and hollow block walls. If I was to setting a 1/2" anchor into concrete, I would drill a 9/16" hole for maximum strength. 

   The Hilti Hit System is amazing but perhaps a little pricey for a one shot deal.

   The chemical anchors, however strong, don't set immediately and I was looking for a method in which leveling was a concern. The metal plate idea could be adjusted later, the through bolt idea could be adjusted later but many of the others were instantly permanent.

   So I was fishing....

   Edit: I would also like to add that I like the 2" hole method much better than the slice technique you described. Wrenches have come a long way and you don't need alot of throw on a ratcheting box end wrench or a twist handle ratchet.

   A plug with similar color and grain would not be an eyesore and may even be hard to spot.

   Gord

   St.Margaret's Bay NS

   Edited 12/7/2004 12:06 am ET by gordzco

3. 
   JerraldHayes | Dec 07, 2004 08:21am | #14

   gordzco "No offence intended toward you Jerrald." No and there is certainly no offense taken. I didn't know whether or not you knew we were big on stairs and railings. And in our company we all think you certainly can't have too many people contributing ideas and I think the same thinking applies here online. Creativity requires rapid iteration of many ideas (and even the stupid ridiculous ones have merit in that they can be the catalyst that shakes up stuck in the mud thinking an shocks you to think of something related that actually turns out to be practical and works) so the more techniques examined the better off we all are.

   When I'm working with the guys I am always asking them "how would you do this" even when I have my own plan of attack already worked out just so I get a constant interjection of other peoples ideas. I can't tell you how many times that questioning has also gotten me to change course too. I often tell people there is not a single original idea in my head. Everything I think and do I stole from someone else and just remixed and/or re-purposed it. That how I fish/

   "The chemical anchors, however strong, don't set immediately" We don't necessarily want them to set too quickly but when we do and we are talking about in concrete not wood we go to hydraulic cement which is very quick.

   "...and I was looking for a method in which leveling was a concern. The metal plate idea could be adjusted later, the through bolt idea could be adjusted later but many of the others were instantly permanent.

   " Are you saying you are looking for an attachment method where you can come back to plumb it up later? (And I assuming you really meant plumb instead of level??). What would you be doing where you wouldn't want to set it plumb right off the bat? What scenario?

   Just curious and wondering and trying to flesh out all the reasoning.

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4. 
   gordzco | Dec 07, 2004 08:58am | #15

   " Are you saying you are looking for an attachment method where you can come back to plumb it up later? (And I assuming you really meant plumb instead of level??). What would you be doing where you wouldn't want to set it plumb right off the bat? What scenario?

   Much later...

   In do a lot of work on restaurants, nigthclubs, etc. Ideas change, styles change and floorplans change. I can see a newel getting kicked over by a drunken steroid monkey or a dozen people leaning on the rail. I would like a post that can be replaced easily.Gord

   St.Margaret's Bay NS

5. 
   davidmeiland | Dec 06, 2004 05:42pm | #8

   Attaching a post to concrete should be easy. Drill a 3/4" hole into the concrete and epoxy a piece of 5/8" threaded rod into the hole, leaving about 12" exposed. Drill a 3/4" hole straight up into the bottom of the post about 8" and then drill a larger hole, probably about 2" dia., into the side of the post also at 8", so that the two holes intersect. Drop the post down over the rod and use the 2" hole to attach a washer and nut. The 2" hole (or whatever you make it) needs to be large enough to get a box-end wrench in there to tighten the nut. Use a sharp chisel to cut a 2-1/4" square mortise at the location of the 2" hole, and then make a square dutchman to glue in to conceal the hole.

   A post installed like this should also be supported as much as possible by the stair framing. A post that needs to be non-top-supported should be embedded into the floor... which is typical in wood framing, but I've never done it in concrete. A post sitting on the concrete should have a piece of 30# felt under it to prevent moisture wicking.

6. 
   JerraldHayes | Dec 06, 2004 08:47pm | #9

   davidmeiland - "Drop the post down over the rod and use the 2" hole to attach a washer and nut. The 2" hole (or whatever you make it) needs to be large enough to get a box-end wrench in there to tighten the nut."View ImageAye but that is exactly the problem sometimes. As the newel get larger and larger the size of that bolt access hgole grows almost exponentially and regardless it always seemed to me that keeping the hole an acceptable size you would have to make a gazillion little throws of the wrench to tighten down that nut. I also don't like the look of the hole plug.

   But what we have been able to do and have done when the newel has a square base plinth (not a cylindrical one) is we slice off part of it then reinstall it like we were laminated up the blank we turned it from in the first place. The trick is beofre we cut the newel to the desisired hiegth we slice of the piece of the base plinth on a bias so that when we reinstall it we can "slide" it up and not lose the dimensional thickness of the saw blade that cut it.

   Is this explanation making any sense? It's certainly just easier to show someone rather over explaining it in words in an online forum.

   David had you seen the other methods I was talking about in those other topic threads:

   Railing post to porch attach method? msg# 49466.4

   How to anchor Stair Rail msg# 51006.14

   What do you think of them?

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7. 
   davidmeiland | Dec 07, 2004 04:17am | #11

   Jerrald,

   Last time I set a newel on a threaded rod, I used the method I described. The post was 4" x 4" oak, and I used a router to cut a shallow recess in the side for the plug. It's been some years but the recess was about 2-1/2" wide by 4" tall and concealed a 2" hole. I dug thru the scap bin and found a piece of oak with very similar grain and color and made the plug out of that, and used tiny brass screws to attach it (not glue). The idea I had at the time was that if the nut somehow loosened over time I would be able to remove the plug and tighten it. The whole thing was way, way sturdy, more than I expected. It had a bit of help from being connected to the bottom of one stringer, and of course the rail cap at right angles to that. And yeah, it takes about 100 micro turns of the wrench to tighten it, but the hole size you need is only as large as the outside diameter of the wrench. Also, I put the washer in the vise and bent it carefully to conform to the 2" hole. Lots of work... lots of fun.

   I like your methods as well. The steep angle cut on the post is a great idea but would be hard for most folks to do. The use of bolts as dowels into epoxy would also work fine. I remember being concerned at the time I did it that I wanted adjustability and removability, so I used the rod/nut/washer method.

8. 
   blue_eyed_devil | Dec 07, 2004 04:33pm | #16

   Jerrald, it makes sense to me. Basically, you're just creating giant shims!

   blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!

9. 
   JerraldHayes | Dec 07, 2004 05:11pm | #17

   Real, real expensive shims if you screw up on the cut too.

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3. 
   allenschell2 | Dec 07, 2004 01:48am | #10

   Well if the stairs where on a slab and my newel was notched into the first step I put my fasteners into the stairs. If your talking about a free standing newel on a slab some of the suggestions these other guys are offering seem sound. I think if the newel where 3" or bigger I would use 2 anchor bolts layed out diagonally and go into the concrete with whatever kind of anchor your in a mood for, and construction adhesive on the bottom.

4. 
   Diamond | Dec 07, 2004 04:19am | #12

   The key-way anchors work great!! They are as strong as anything else I've done aside from burying the post inside of framing.