Stairbuilders all have their little trick bag to draw from. I am going to post from time to time some of my favorite selections. Anyone else that wants to add to this bag of tricks…please do so.
When I set a stairway in place…I like to have construction glue between the outside stringer and the wall. The problem with doing this is that especially with a big curved stairway…you have a bunch of guys setting the stairway into place…and you dont want a bunch of construction glue getting all over the wall..hands etc. Plus the time element is a problem. The glue would start tacking over and getting stiff. So…for years I just lagged the outside stringer and that was that. I still never was satisfied as I like to have that outside stringer really solidly attached with glue and not relying on the lags.
My tip…I drill 3/8 inch holes neatly spaced under the treads and behind the risers where they are out of sight. After the stairs is set in place….I locate and drill 3/8 inch holes at each stud for the lags to go through. Before I put the lags in…I take a tube of subfloor glue and place the nozzle tightly in each hole and pump away. The nozzle seals up the hole and actually pumps the glue under considerable pressure. I can see it oozing out behind the skirtboard. I then put the lag screw into that fresh glued area and tighten it up watching more glue squish out the other surrounding holes I also pumped glue through. I then move on to the next lag and repeat this. This keeps the glue fresh as can be and I cant think of a more secure and better method to solidly marry the outside stringer to the wall. I wouldnt be afraid one second to later remove the lags….its that secure. Years ago I had a stair that persistently had a little pop noise…and this was the mother of this invention. I had to get this nosie fixed before it was all drywalled in. Necessity was the mother here,,,and I came up with this method to fix that pop. I will never forget it because I went in…loosened the lags….drilled my holes…pumped glue and tightened the lags one at a time. That pop noise left and will never come back. That view of the glue coming out behind the skirtboard at least 6 inches away from the hole was so enjoyable to watch. There wasnt a doubt in my mind that once that glue set..the noise would be gone. A skirtboard only has to move a hundredth of an inch to cause noise as it releases and jumps that minute distance. You cant see it..but your finger can detect the small movement. Well….this is no longer a problem.
This is now just standard procedure for all my stairways. The simplest things are usually the best.
I have more to come….but this is an invite for other ideas. I need to add more to my bag of tricks. <G>
Stan
Edited 9/2/2006 7:25 am ET by StanFoster
Replies
Heres a picture of how I mount my stairways, if they are mounted inside the house.
1/2" x 8" bolts. Through the studs, stringer and the 2x4 spacer.
be a big bump and some of you get yer ears on here.The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
Rez: I was all fired up in adding posts to this thread. But you see how many responses I got.....I lost interest.
Stan
yeah, but I'm figuring the thread just fell thru the cracks is all.
Sometimes if a thread doesn't get established it'll just get lost among the prattle regardless of what it is.
Your title of the thread represents exactly what Breaktime should be noted for and not a bunch of polijive over and over and over and...:o)The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
stan... never saw the thread... wonder if it comming out over Labor Day weekend had anything to do with it ...
i like to put markers on the title... so i can search for it faster
some threads just need a little encouragement
let's see if we can get larry to jump in Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
hey... is that finger authorized ?
View ImageMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
No I don't believe that finger got the proper authorization.
Looks like some punk kids finger anyway. :)A broom is drearily sweeping up the broken pieces of yesterdays life.
I didn't see it before today either.
I build a stair maybe once a year, maybe once every two years, maybe not even that often, always in place, never in the shop.
If my stair has a open tread with a apron mitred to the risers, I mark the inside of the mitres and the cut under the tread on the apron with a special tool - a piece of straight 1 x 4 cut to just under the width of the stairs with a knife blade fastened to the face of it. Put the apron in place with only its top and bottom cuts made. Slide the tool up the face of the stringer and mark your mitre cuts. Slide it across the top of the stingers and mark your tread cuts. Better than a pencil. You don't have to allow for the thickness of the tool.
There, you happy now?
>G>
Ron
need a pic..... c'mon.. don't be stingyMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I have pics, if Ican find them. We built stiars on Capitol Hil (D.C.), mostly straight runs (some with landings and volutes and down turns) with dovteailed balusters. Glue and wedges, no nails.BTW Stan does museam quality work. Stan and Riverman should get together and build the " House of Columns and Stairs"First timeI saw the post also.Chucklive, work, build, ...better with wood
Edited 9/22/2006 8:08 pm ET by stevent1
Ron... I agree with Mike,
this sounds like a great tip, but I'm not sure I have a clear understanding of everything you said. A photo would be worth a thousand words here. " If I were a carpenter"
I use a tuning fork looking 1x4, the same thickness as my finished riser. Slide it over the apron and mark the outside of the tuning fork with a retractable utility knife. That gives me the long point of each riser mitre.
Lately my stairs have had a 3/4" apron and 3/8" finished riser. Makes life easier with a 3/8" tuning fork. L.J Smith stair components I believe.
A broom is drearily sweeping up the broken pieces of yesterdays life.
Stilletto.
My turn now. I don't understand your description. I'd like to. It would be useful to mark the long side of the cut. My technique marks the short side.
Ron
Take a straight piece of stock the same thickness as your risers, and cut a slot in the center of it so it will slide over the apron. Push it tight to the face of the rough riser and then mark the outside face of the apron up your straight edge.
A broom is drearily sweeping up the broken pieces of yesterdays life.
You have to cut the apron to fit your stringers first, then tack it into place. Slide your "fork" over the apron for each riser. A broom is drearily sweeping up the broken pieces of yesterdays life.
Does anyone know any good books out there on builing stairs and railings/post etc.
I got no problem framing stairs, but I recentley did my 1st interior rail and spindle with posts deal, which turned out not to badly. But no goose necks or the like to deal with.
The thought of some of the stuff inloved with some stairs is quite intimdating, but definately something that I look forward to tackling at some point, as I continue to improve upon my skills from framer to finish carpenter.
I've got the Taunton book on stair building which does have some cool stuff, any more stuff out there like that anyone would recommend?
I've had a question for a couple years. Maybe somebody can help my head understand this.
Installing stairs - straight, curved, whatever. Upper floor apartments. Thinking about the noise/vibration transmission from people walking up or down the stairs.
Why isn't it better to build the stairs and fasten them in such a way that they "float" a bit when they are walked on? For example: lags in an oversized hole like an edge on a tabletop? Wouldn't that prevent some noise or sound transmission to the floors below?
I haven't done any particular research on this, but I am curious.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Don - I had 4 thoughts on this one:
1. I would think the presence of an opening contributes more to the sound transmission in most cases than the stairs
2. If you did try to dampen sound, having the fastening points rest on some type of rubber damping washer, like an engine mount, might do it.
3. The mass of the stairs would be a big factor - concrete stairs aren't nearly the sounding board when compared to the 5/4 yellow pine I build. Rest/attach the stringers on a wall all the way up and you lose more sound.
4. Carpet
Treat every person you meet like you will know them the rest of your life - you just might!
5) apply spray foam to the back???"The truth, when told does nothing but bolster a mans character." -Big Cal Stew 2006
"There are 2 kinds of people in the world, those who divide the world into 2 kinds of people and everyone else" -Gloria Steinham
Brian -
Thanks for the thoughts. Your number 4 (carpet) is a given. It happens that I'm working on one this week and I might try to see if I can come up with some kind of rubber mount. Stairs themselves are already in - 5/4 pine here too. Too late for the concrete. :-) Oh well.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Just saw this thing on the TV (Ask this old House) Thought it was pretty cool for rail bolts with a completely hidden fastener. Looked like it would be faster than the tradition rail bolt hardware systems. Someone crafty could probably figure out how to use it in a bunch of different places. It's a bit pricey for the 1-2 stair I do a yeard, however...http://www.crownheritage.com/main.cfm?pagename=easalignfor $650:
http://www.stairpartsondemand.com/easalign.htm
tobias.. we don't use rail bolts , we use pocket screws and gorilla glue
i noticed in the EasAlign video.. they START with a perfect cut of the two pieces to be joined..
once you have the perfect cut, the joining is relatively simple
Larry used to use a 1 1/2" staple until the glue set
kinda wish i still had one of my first generation roofing staplers after i saw that Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Do you just pocket screw from the bottom of the rail profile? do you use any sort of dowel to keep the alignment?
kinda wish i still had one of my first generation roofing staplers after i saw that
Just buy a box of HT-65's and break off two or three staples together. Then drive 'em in with a hammer. (Let me know if that works, and I'll try it myself LOL!).
Actually, Lee Valley sells this gizmo which should do the trick.
View Image
It's called a pinch dog. Sort of like a big re-usable staple with wedging action built in. Drive the thing in across the glue line and it pulls and holds the pieces together until the glue sets. Available in 1", 1¨ú" and 2¨ö" sizes. Click the photo to check it on their website.
I have used a bolt in a keyhole slot to assemble rail sections that may someday have to be disassembled. I also use that system for joining rails to posts. You never know when someone will want to get a queen-sized box-spring or a humongous armoire up those stairs and need to remove the railing to do it.
Drill a ¨ú" dia hole under the rail 1¨ö" from the end, then rout a ¨ü" slot from the hole to the end. If you want to get fancy, chisel flat the side of the hole facing the end, but I don't find it necessary. The washer will bite in and make it's own flats. Slip in a ¨ù" lag screw or bolt and use a box wrench to tighten it down.Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I've got a set of those pinch dogs. I don't know how well they would work for rail work, you've got to bash them pretty good to get them to draw tight, and they leave pretty good holes. They work well for pulling couter tops together from below and stuff like that.I don't like to rely just on glue for handrail parts, I like to get the mechanical fastener in there as well. I might try the Jed Dixon approach and use these on my next rail:http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=349
That looks like a variation on a cross-dowel bolt. I found those very useful for assembling the frame for a king-size captain's bed I built for a client with a serious need for major storage.Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Stan -
I am a Habitat for Humanity volunteer and am having trouble putting in a continuous handrail. Not the fancy curved railings you do but just a simple HD pine handrail. The stairs rise at 40deg, wind around a 2x4 wall and go up at 40deg again. How do I figure the compund angles in the turn? Its really got me stumped.You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
Stan... I just found this thread today, so I guess it did kind of slip through the cracks.
First of all let me just say reiterate that you're pretty much one of my heros on this board. I aspire to be just a mere shadow of your talents and skills.
Although I've been building and trimming stairs for many years, most of what I have done seems pretty rudimentary compared to the calibur of work that you do. I really don't know if there is anything that I could "bring to the table" that might be pertinant. Still, if anything comes to me, I will certainly throw it out there.
I plan to pay particular attention to this thread now that I know it's here.
I just saw the thread today too...
I spend a lot of head scratching time when I build stairs (they come out OK - I just don't build enough to remember my own tricks), but seeing Stan's work makes me want to try my hand at some curves. The part that really gets me is the railing - I cannot get my head around how to build a curved railing. Where do I go to learn?
brian.. some of stan's previous threads are real primers on the whole process.. including routing on a curve, and building curved railsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I had to scratch a bit to remember that stick/knife blade thing because I don't build enough stairs to think of myself as an expert and because I admire Stan's work too much to put myself in the same category as him.
Anyway I don't have a picture. Next time I build some stairs I'll get one, OK?
I will put a lot of effort into avoiding measuring things and into marking the cut on a workpiece directly from the hole it's supposed to fit into. This is a tool for transferring lines directly to a workpiece. The fewer steps there are in a process, the lower the chance of screwing it up.
I'm sorry my description wasn't good enough. I don't think this trick is worth taking up a lot of space. I hope to see better things than that here. And soon, too.
Ron
I've built quite a few stairs, but always the simplest of stuff and nothing like the beautiful work you do.
If there's anyone who doesn't know this, here's my tiny tip: If you are building stairs in place where the surface of the treads and risers will but sheetrock, place a piece of 1x between the riser and the studs that runs parallel to the stringers and sits just below the bottom corner where tread meets riser and both meet the wall.
That piece of 1x allows sheetrock to slide in with only a single angle cut on the rock: no cutting to match the stairs.
It's easier on the rock hangers and it inevitably finishes out nicer than if the rock was notched.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd." Voltaire
I like to take this idea a step further(hey a pun!!)
I put 2 2x4s between the stringer and the studs.
then when you are fastening the treads you are not doing so right against the wall.
lots easier to drill and screw and bung and sand ... when you are 3" out from the wallboard...
"The truth, when told does nothing but bolster a mans character." -Big Cal Stew 2006
"There are 2 kinds of people in the world, those who divide the world into 2 kinds of people and everyone else" -Gloria Steinham