Hello all,
I’ve been lurking for about a year ever since I purchased my first home and have become both in need but more out of interest into renovations. I have done a few wall tear downs and drywall but now its time for the bigger league (remember this is all relative). The house is circa 1895 and the staircase steps are in need of replacement. Some of the treads have shrunk up to 1 inch in width so there is not much holding them up except the edges of the wedges. I’ve read 3 past FHB articles on Stair building and searched the archives for past information but am looking for a little guidance with my project. My material selection I’ve found is either 5/4†bullnose pine or precut 1&1/8 presswood for treads. The stairs will be carpeted afterwards so no need for Oak. Would one product be better over the other? As well should the risers be presswood (?â€) or 1x pine? What material should the wedges be made of, pine? What type of glue would be suggested for the assembly? Based on suggestions through this forum I will be using pocket screws for the upper riser/tread connection but what type of screws should be used for the bottom riser/back of tread connection. Should glue be used along this bottom joint? How many screws should be used for a 34†width. Any/all information would be greatly appreciated, Thanks.
Freddy,
Replies
Freddy, I know squat about fixing old stairs, but presswood ain't the answer to anything.
Joe H
By press wood does he mean partical board or MDF?
Partical board is common on steps, especialy if they are getting carpeted.
Doug
Yes I was meaning particle board, I knew the name was not right but couldn't remember. Strange my wife keeps on telling me that I never remember anything, hmmmmm....
Freddy, use the yellow pine treads and 1x pine or poplar for risers. You mention wedges, is this a housed stinger? Not usually found in an old house. A housed stringer has dadoes in the stinger to recieve treads, long thin wedges are glued under the tread and in the angled rabbet. If this is the situation then make wedges out of any wood you have . Use yellow glue on wedges and dado . Toe nail 16d galv casing nails from top of tread into stringer after wedges are in place.I use galvanized casing nails because they hold better than bright smooth nails.You can nail (8d casing ) or screw the risers into the back of the tread, no glue needed. Is the riser housed too?If so ,you could use a spot of glue at the back top of riser. I would not glue the entire width of riser as it probably shrink some and crack the riser.You could just as well toe nail riser into the stringer. If you screw the riser to the tread use one and a half inch drywall screws counter sunk into riser back.Do not use pocket screws to connect riser to tread. Bore pilot holes from top of tread and nail into risers, you can glue this joint if you wish, either subfloor adhesive or yellow glue.nail thru tread into risers 2" from each end, one in middle and one each between middle and ends, 5 nails in 34"should do the trick.
mike
Edited 5/13/2004 7:16 pm ET by MIKEK4244
Thank you Mike,
It is in fact a housed stringer on both sides, both treads & risers are wedged. Luckily I have full access from below. I realized after I posted that I forgot to mention this but I figures the mention of wedges would hopefully bring this to light. Suprisingly I haven't (yet!) found too much difference with my house's construction to todays methods with the exception of balloon framing and of coures the older materials such stone foundation, forged nails, plaster over lathe walls.... but I haven't seen everything behind the walls either. Thank you for your post.
Freddy
Why not use pocket screws to attach tread and riser? I'd agree not to use them to attach the riser to the back of the tread, but they're an awsome means of attaching the riser to the front of the tread.
Freddy, if you have to work from underneath, wear a hat. The quantity of glue that drips down in this work is astounding.
AndyArguing with a Breaktimer is like mud-wrestling a pig -- Sooner or later you find out the pig loves it.
Andy, I considered pocket screws overkill to fasten tread to riser. There's nothing wrong with it , I rarely use them.
mike
Fair enough. I tend to go for the belt, suspenders and Velcro approach myself. <G>
AndyArguing with a Breaktimer is like mud-wrestling a pig -- Sooner or later you find out the pig loves it.
Mike, Andy, Jer
Thanks again for the reponses, I have a few questions about what was suggested to help clarify my undertanding.
About toenailing 16d galv. Nails, why is this done from the top of the tread and does the angle of this nail make it come out of the end of the tread into the stringer or through the tread into the stringer? Is this done with the riser too into the stringer and if so is it from the front or back of the riser? About the screws from the base of the riser to the back of the tread, should they be piloted first and countersunk? It was mentioned to use drywall screws for this operation but I was told that for subflooring not to use drywall screws but was not told why. Should this be a concern for riser to tread?
Sorry to post to all 3 but I am hoping for a response by Friday.
Frederic
Freddy, 16d galvanized nails are driven from the top of the tread into the stringer, pilot holes will help a lot. The risers can be either nailed or screwed at the bottom edge. This fastens the bottom of the riser into the back of the tread. If you screw, elongate the hole up and down a bit for possible movement. Do not glue at the bottomof the riser. Drywall screws are fine as far as I am concerned.
Before fastening tread , run a bead of glue on the top edge of riser, this helps to reduce squeaks.Do your fastening after the glued wedges are in place, one tread and riser at a time. I nail thru the top of the tread into the riser as well as glue with 8d galv casing nails, I always predrill these, if you are using yellow pine treads this step is imperative. Yellow pine is known for nails coming out in the wrong place, I hand nail almost everything when working with it, even though I own a half a dozen nail guns.
Yes, to the question , should I drill and countersink holes into back of riser.
If the riser is also housed you can skip toenailing into stringer if you want. The screws at the bottom and nails from the top of tread into rises are enough, and the wedges help too.
As far as using drywall screws for subflooring, you were told correctly, there are deck screws with coarser threads and heavier gauge for this.
Mike
Thanks Mike, Jer and Jeff, I shall give an update after completion next week.
Freddy
Mike, Andy, Jer
Thanks again for the reponses, I have a few questions about what was suggested to help clarify my undertanding.
About toenailing 16d galv. Nails, why is this done from the top of the tread and does the angle of this nail make it come out of the end of the tread into the stringer or through the tread into the stringer? Is this done with the riser too into the stringer and if so is it from the front or back of the riser? About the screws from the base of the riser to the back of the tread, should they be piloted first and countersunk? It was mentioned to use drywall screws for this operation but I was told that for subflooring not to use drywall screws but was not told why. Should this be a concern for riser to tread?
Sorry to post to all 3 but I am hoping for a response by Friday.Frederic
I've repaired many of these. A house of this age would most definately have housed stringers with dados and wedges. Usually what has happend is the house has settled and the treads and risers have pulled out of the stringers. If the underbelly has been plastered and you pull down the old plaster you can usually find a few loosened wedges near the bottom to use as a template for making new ones. The Victorians used plain pine for wedges as it was the same wood for the closed stringers and the compression strength would be equal. Sometimes, depending on how wide the stairs were, there was a center carriage stringer with cleats nailed on supporting both tread and riser. These would be attatched in an alternate fashion to both sides of the center stringer as to distribute the load evenly so the stringer would not twist. If these need to be replaced as well, make new ones and use screws and glue Make sure you vaccume out all the dirt and dust from dados for the wedges so the new glue will really take. Also if this is up against one wall and there is an outside stringer that has pulled away, loosen as many joints as you can (without collapsing the staircase!), and pry, wedge, push or turnbuckle the outside stringer back into it's origional position...or close proximity to. It's not easy. Now you can start setting or resetting your treads, risers, wedges and don't forget the glue blocks between the risers and treads. Pocket screws are excellent for screwing down into the housing from the top, but I've also used galv finish nails which is suggested. Go slow and use lots of glue. Good luck.
Mike, Andy, Jer
Thanks again for the reponses, I have a few questions about what was suggested to help clarify my undertanding.
About toenailing 16d galv. Nails, why is this done from the top of the tread and does the angle of this nail make it come out of the end of the tread into the stringer or through the tread into the stringer? Is this done with the riser too into the stringer and if so is it from the front or back of the riser? About the screws from the base of the riser to the back of the tread, should they be piloted first and countersunk? It was mentioned to use drywall screws for this operation but I was told that for subflooring not to use drywall screws but was not told why. Should this be a concern for riser to tread?
Sorry to post to all 3 but I am hoping for a response by Friday.
Frederic
Mike has pretty much covered it all. Each old staircase is different and I vary my approach accordingly. For instance if the wood is older and wouldn't take regular yellow glue as well between the riser and tread because of fit, I have used construction adhesive, it fills gaps better and is more flexible with the give of a stair tread. If the treads and risers are properly fitted into the dadoes and wedged and glued well, there really is no need for further nailing or screwing from the top into the stringer. I have used trim ss deck screws for this as well, they're more $ but are stronger and less conspicuous.
you're really talking about replacing a wooden set of stairs with a set that'll be carpeted ...
I'd call a coupla lumber yards to check prices ...
you might be surprised to see how relatively cheap a set of "store bought" carpet grade stairs can be .... cheap .... fast ... and fairly easy.
Jeff
Buck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry