Stairs Ext. Doors- Planned or a Goof?
edwardh1
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
Shows stairs ending in front of exterior doors- there is another set of exterior doors under the stairs that keeps you from moving the stairs back. also a washer dryer space under the stairs. probably a $1M home.
whats the cure? steeper stairs?
Pix to follow
Replies
PIx
76 is bottom of stairs
75 is outside view showing the two doors
73 is under stairs washer dryer area
74 is 2 nd interfering door under stairs
Edited 11/25/2005 12:14 pm ET by edwardh1
You need to work on your photo skills a little. You were too close on most of the pics ... hard to get a good overall view. I suspect that you couldn't back up enough for some of them.
Interesting problem. My guess is that it's a goof ... somebody didn't plan very well. had to have stairs, had to have the washer-dryer, certainly need an exterior door ... let's see if we can squeeze it all into a house too big for the lot.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Absolute goof - compounded by various trade subs (I won't call them craftsmen) blundering forward like they did not notice anything was wrong.
"I just set the stairs...hang the rock.....do da trim....."
This problem would have been painfully obvious as soon as the stair was set; a remedy should have been formulated and applied at that point; i.e., a long time ago.
The least disruptive cure may be to move the door at the bottom of the stairs and either, live with the door under the stairs or move it also. Don't know if that is possible from exterior photo - looks pretty tight to the corner. It'll be messy no matter what.
This problem probably goes all the way back to the archy who didn't allow enough space for the stair run or a framing crew who messed up door position - I suspect the archy messing up 2nd floor thickness calc. Then stair guy built stair to fit needed rise - could be the stair guy also.
Luck.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Jim,Even if the Architect screwed up it should've been caught from day one from the builder and if he didn't see it on the plans than the framer should've picked it up.I don't cut stairs for houses but I've cut many stairs before and I should know better as a framer that the stairs wont work and so should all framers and if you see something that raises a red flag then the phone calls start. It's that simple. I've done in many times.There's always a solution to a problem and the last time this happened I had the Architect,Builder and Homeowner there because we had to move some walls around and shrink the hallway and bedroom a little bit and also put winders in but I caught and notified everyone. The Homeowner was mad because the Architect screwed up but there was a solution and it work BEFORE EVERYTHING was finished Everyone is to blame on this one. I can't wait to here what the excuse is.......Joe Carola
Edited 11/25/2005 2:34 pm ET by Framer
Joe,
I agree with you completely!
That is what spawned my "trade subs" remark - if any one of them had been a craftsman, such as yourself, this problem would not be such a problem now - my point was the all-too-frequent trade mentality - "I just... set the stairs...hang the rock...". Any one of them could have pointed out this problem before it was so "built in".
It will be interesting to hear the final excuses.......
Jim
Never underestimate the value of asharp pencil or good light.
with all due respect,i think you are a bit off base by stripping these subs of their "craftsman" badge of honor. subcontractors are not responsible for the overall outcome of a project. They are responsible for one aspect of the job. While it is definitely within their scope of work to inform as to problems they encounter and so forth, i don't see how you can ask the drywall sub to reframe the stairs. that isn't his job. what he can do is inform the GC, architect, HO, whatever as to what the issue/problem is, let them decide what they want to do, and then perform the necessary solution. that's it. it isn't his money or his project. so the blame doesn't go to the subs... it goes to the architect or GC.
It's hard to realy tell what happened unless I saw the floor plans but I really doubt that the plans were drawn with the first step in front of the door and if it was then the builder should've seen it from the start.Now forget the architect and builder and say that it was drawn with the step back from the door. The person to blame is the framer because he should know just from snapping his lines and laying down his shoes and plates for all the walls windows and doors that the stairs wouldn't work. He should've got on the phone and called the Builder and then the Builder should've come over and had a meeting and resolved it.What happens sometimes is the measurements don't add up for some reason with architect’s because they made a mistake and it will change everything but me being a framer, I should know better. Anyone who says that they followed the plans and lets something like that get away shouldn't even be in business.After this house was all framed and still no one caught it the next person in line in my eyes to blame is the stair guy for even setting the stairs and also the builder for even letting the stairs be set. Let's get real here Mr. Stair guy. He comes in there to measure for the stairs and sees that they will land a tread and a half into the door and doesn't say anything. All he says is, "Hey I'm just the stair guy, it's not my problem when the stairs land into the door, I'm not letting anyone know this". The stair guy is just as bad.The next guy who could've mention something was the trimmer. He trimmed right on top of the stairs, but he's just doing his job also.Obviously, the builder, project manager, a-hole or whoever is supposed to be supervising this million dollar house must not have stopped by for a long time on this one.All theses bozo subs that see something wrong and doesn't tell the builder can go pound salt somewhere because even though I'm a framing sub for a lot of guys, I would never let that go. I would be on the phone in 2 seconds to watch out for the builder or gc so the problem doesn't get any worse. In my eyes we're all a team and we should all watch out for each other and help each other if someone isn't there. Not like these subs who did this house.
Joe Carola
Edited 11/25/2005 9:32 pm ET by Framer
i agree with you that the framer is prob. to blame. i too doubt that this was designed in the plans. perhaps there was a code issue with the stairs and this was his best solution. obv., not a good one. but i find it hard to believe that by the time the stair guy got there (nevermind the drywall guy or plumbers/electricians roughing in the laundry room underneath) that this hadn't been discovered. i mean how can you miss out?!?! so to assign blame to subs who come along way down the line and are asked to cover up other people's bad decisions is not fair. What is the stair guy suppossed to say??? i refuse to trim out these stairs until this door is moved or until this stairway opening is enlarged and the stringers are moved back?!?! Never would happen. at least, not in the reality that i live in.
"What is the stair guy suppossed to say??? i refuse to trim out these stairs until this door is moved or until this stairway opening is enlarged and the stringers are moved back?!?! Never would happen. at least, not in the reality that i live in"The stair guy should've called tha builder after he went to measure the stairs and asked the builder if he wants him to make a set of steps that will land almost half way into the door.What does the stair guy have to do with trim?Maybe we're thinking of two different things here because from where I'm from. Stair companies come in and measure and go to their shops and build all the stairs there and then come and install them. Sometimes the framers install them.Some places all the framers build the stairs and then I guess the trimmers finish the stairs. If this is the case, the framers are even bigger a-holes and the trimmers still cases the door on top of the middle of the second tread of stairs and even returns the tread into the door jamb and still not even a peep. What a bunch.......Joe Carola
Edited 11/25/2005 10:21 pm ET by Framer
in my neck of the woods, the stair guy (aka senior finish carpenter) comes along and trims out the stairs and installs the ballustrade. so you could be right and i could be wrong? but, of course, i would never admit to that.
"so you could be right and i could be wrong? but, of course, i would never admit to that."I'm not always right.....but I'm never wrong.....Joe Carola
Probable Reason why the doors could not be moved over (doors under the rise of the stairs- would make the outside look uneven) this is one wing of a big house
"Probable Reason why the doors could not be moved over (doors under the rise of the stairs- would make the outside look uneven)"If the door being moved would throw it out of center then it can't be moved especially if it's the front door. Still with such a big house there's know reason why the stairs should be that close to the door. I'm sure there could've been one way to change the lay out a little but who knows what the floor plan is.I framed an addition about 10 years ago where the stairs were to the right side of the front door and the plans had a winder as the first to steps but the homeowner didn't want the winder so that added one step towards the front door and the second step was the platform. That one step landed 4" into the sidelight on the front door. It passed inspection and everyone was happy.Joe Carola
"While it is definitely within their scope of work to inform as to problems they encounter and so forth......."
My point exactly - I seriously doubt that any of the subs informed the GC, HO or whoever about this "little problem".
I never said they should fix it, but don't you think a professional craftsman would mention it to someone in a position to solve it? The earlier it was mentioned the bigger a hero that person would be.
There it is - "I just.... hang the rock....set the stairs....do the trim......".
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
The stairs are in a master bedroom suite and go upstairs to a large room over a large first floor bedroom, closet "room" and large bath/shower/jacussi/double vanity room/ Maybe they plan to nail up the exterior door and not use it, but have it as a outside style matching double door.One other home had the toilet just behind the same exterior double doors maybe you get into these issues when you put 5 or more of these tall thin double doors on the front of a house ???????ie interferes with whats inside?what are these type doors called ?????????
I'm with you on this one - can't assume the sub's didn't inform the builder. I'm working on a couple of remodeling/renovation projects right now, owner/builder's first projects, designed by himself and his uncle, with some really unorthodox details (meaning DUMB - in my opinion). Some examples:
Wood windows in both showers
IN-swinging casement windows throughout the house (what kinda drapes/mini-blinds you gonna put on those?)
Removing, renovating, re-glazing (with bright cobalt-blue glass in many cases!) and re-using original single-pane uninsulated wood windows at great labor cost - in a climate that goes over 100 degrees for much of the summer
Elaborate base-molding with curvy-profile on the kitchen cabinets installed down to the floor - and above the floor where the existing floor is an inch out-of-level (how you gonna finish up to it? - no way to get base-shoe on that curvy profile)
Kitchen pantry cabinets 40" deep (great, if King-Kong buys the house!) with a 40" deep base cabinet between full-height cab's at either end (looks like an entertainment center in the kitchen!) with outlets on the back wall that can't even be reached!
Flat roof design with multiple scuppers exiting to a stucco exterior, often directly over windows
I could go on, but you get the picture.I have discussed these issues several times with the builder. Bottom line is its his money, his house, his decision, and I'm not gonna walk away because the checks are good and my family has an expensive addiction to food clothing and shelter! That stair detail would be right at home on his projects! Matter of fact, if he saw that picture, I think he'd like it and try to incorporate it somehow!! Every tradesman there has tried to warn this guy about his goofy details, but he plods on undeterred. The more warnings he gets, the more adamant he becomes about following his creative vision at all costs.
Edited 11/26/2005 8:09 am by Huck
"I'm with you on this one - can't assume the sub's didn't inform the builder. "That could be true. Maybe the door has to stay there for some reason but it has to be a stationary door and pass code. I would like to see a picture of the front of the house. I guess from the front of the house you would rather see double doors instead of a full wall. The door in front of the stairs is acting as a wall.Joe Carola
Edited 11/26/2005 8:11 am ET by Framer
I'm going on record as agreeing with Huck and Bozer.
Too many times I have been in those situations, as the framer, the trimmer, and other select trades. You can point out gross design flaws and outright "this is impossible to build as it's drawn" types of things, til you're blue in the face and get absolutely nowhere with a contractor, and especially with an archy.
I have stood there and tried to explain that what they have drawn won't work, and when I try to get them to understand what I'm refferring to, I just get "You have no idea what the big picture is here! This was drawn by a professional and everything is going to turn out perfect if you build it exactly as it's shown on the print! You just do what you're being paid to do and don't question things that are out of your scope!" or some such dressing down along those lines.
This happens a lot with houses that have an archy involved. After a point you just have to put your head down, build it wrong, shaking your head all along, knowing full well, you are going to be back tearing it up and re-doing it at a later date.
I have learned in this business that the human ego is a very powerful force to have to try to stand up against.
" If I were a carpenter"
Sounds like your customers belong in the Dreamhouse thread - where ego meets reality it always gets interesting!
How could that have even possibly happened and no one figured this out during the framing process, let alone sheetrock and the bozo who even installed the stairs.
Is the homeowner the Builder?
Did someone call you in to see if you can fix this?
BAD DESIGN!
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That's too funny. Looks like a walk away and don't look back.
I see 2 solutions. Either move the door sideways to clear the stairs, or raise the door to the height of the bottom tread and put landing platforms on the inside and outside.
Moving the door sideways would be (somewhat) easier, but everyone else is right- this flaw should have been dealt with long before this.
My wife and I ran across this stair thing while walking one Sunday- Its a custom built home for a arch's client (plans inside the home say " the xyz family residence ") been under construction quite a while- not a hack job - but looks like no one has sounded the alarm on this one.
I bet Mr & mrs XYZ paid big bucks for the plans, too! Wonder if it was a real archy or just a plan shop.
One fix would be to change from double doors to a door with two side lites.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
"One fix would be to change from double doors to a door with two side lites."Or nail the door closest to the stairs shut.Joe Carola
This reminds me of a job where one small bathroom had an inswinging door and the toilet was too close to the door. Fur was flying as the archy and GC and owner pointed fingers. At the end of the day, my buddy cut a notch out of the door edge just the exact shape of the front of the toilet. He glued the cut out piece to the door jamb so that it fit into the door when closed. Everyone had to laugh at that.
Was there no framing inspection required in this area? Or is the inspector as dim as the subs?
Bruce
Between the mountains and the desert ...
Just cause the archy drew an elephant in the upstairs bathroom closet doesn't mean it should get built that way.
That's why they invented cell phones.
-S-Confused yet? Lemme explain it again.......