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standing seam leaker?

gzajac | Posted in Construction Techniques on March 3, 2007 09:58am

Although I am primarily a framer, I called in by builders to problem solve. Case in point- the house that won’t hold paint.

House was remodeled seven years ago, painted three times, and has peeling paint, mold issues, and a suspect crawl space.The first problem area is the front porch. It has areas of paint peeling off in sheets, and mold on ceiling.

Problems I see that may contribute:

gutter on porch roof to small

too much water from upper roof falling on front porch

lack of gutter on bay window ,water leaking through window sill

flashing from window sills to roof

standing seam problem- holes in installation- looked like they were caulked.

I think the porch posts were all made out of Mahogony, and they look very nice. They were originally trimmed tight to the mahogony deck, then recut three years later.The porch ceiling has black lines on the beaded ceiling or brown marks.Anyone have any other ideas? Observations?

Thanks greg in Connecticut

Reply

Replies

  1. seeyou | Mar 03, 2007 11:32pm | #1

    Greg, I don't like the look of the flashing detail shown in the pic where you can see your hand in the gutter. There may be some sort of kickout at the bottom, but it looks like water can run back in behind the trim above the end of the gutter. The window sills look like they're down a little tight on top of the porch roof. Can't tell how that's flashed either. What kind of holes in the roof? They could probably be soldered.

    http://logancustomcopper.com

    http://grantlogan.net/

     

    It's like the whole world's walking pretty and you can't find no room to move. - the Boss

    I married my cousin in Arkansas - I married two more when I got to Utah. - the Gourds

     

     

    1. gzajac | Mar 05, 2007 03:58am | #7

      Grant

      I tried to look at this while it was raining,but the traffic wouldn't cooperate.There are 1/4" spaces at both ends of gutters, and they both show signs of water damage below.

      The holes appear on the bottom of most of the panels, and are caulked with a dab of grey caulk.I think gutter hangers were soldered on after the fact, can't figure why this guy didn't solder these holes.

      Here are a couple more pictures.

  2. User avater
    Jeff_Clarke | Mar 04, 2007 01:09am | #2

    I think that in a rip-roaring thunderstorm so much water overflows the half-round gutters that it sheets over the columns and into the porch area.   This is exacerbated by the fact that the frieze box has no drip on the leading edge.   Suggest upping gutter/leader size appropriately.   Possibly add some kind of drip to the bottom to keep water from following the construction back into the porch. 

    The gutters/leaders for the porch seem adequate for the porch only, much less any overflows they may carry occasionally.   The gutter doesn't seem to be 'hung' but rather integral with the copper fascia.   If leaders are clogged, water may be getting up behind the inside edge joint.

    Water is probably getting down through the bay window sills.

    As far as under the porch, I suspect that condensation is forming under the copper roofing on occasion and running down through the roof construction.  This would have been a good location for ice-and-water shield.

    Is it possible that the holes in the copper were for snow guards?  Removed?  Or ... is it possible that ferrous fasteners were used on the drip edge under the copper roof and are eating holes in it?  (Galvanic corrosion?).

     

    Jeff



    Edited 3/3/2007 5:16 pm ET by Jeff_Clarke

    1. gzajac | Mar 05, 2007 04:11am | #8

      Jeff

      Thanks for the observations.I think water is going over the front of the the porch gutters, along with the ends. I'm not sure what a frieze box is, but the drip edge does have an extension rivited on so it extends into the gutter.

      There is another standing seam in the rear of the house. It has the same situation with windows close to the roof. I would say this was done by another contractor, because he wrapped all the sills in copper. This roof was redone because of leaks, after a previous substandard  job.

      Your guess on the snow guards seems right, although the holes aren't on every panel.

      I'll be back there this week, to look at some new problems.

      Thanks greg in Connecticut

  3. Piffin | Mar 04, 2007 07:23pm | #3

    I was wondering about those holes in the roof! I wonder if the carpentry crew or painters connected some staging right there. I've seen them do worse.

    But the thing that stands out most to me is that it does not look like enough pitch for that standing seam roof.

     

     

    Welcome to the
    Taunton University of
    Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
     where ...
    Excellence is its own reward!

    1. User avater
      Sphere | Mar 04, 2007 07:31pm | #4

      The last large standing seam copper we did, we left a suitable staging that was NOT attached to the roof, just so the painter would not dream of making a hole.

      The guys who seem more careless are the lightning rod guys, we explicity warned the H.O. that if they pierced the roof, we would be charging to fix it, so, what they do? They glued the air terminals on the copper with Liquid nails...no kidding, I found the empty tubes and a caulk gun left on the roof.

      We went up and easily removed them, and cleaned and soldered the terminals on. 

    2. gzajac | Mar 05, 2007 04:35am | #9

      Piffin thanks for the input.It never dawned on me to check the pitch of the roof. What is the minimum pitch?

      I don't think the carpenters that did this job would have put nails in the roof. From a carpentry stand point, the guys were craftsmen.

      The holes are just caulked and wearing out like these. As jeff above said maybe they were snow guards.Standing seam is not my forte.

      The contractor that called me in to look at this problem had a paint manufacturer look also. The manufacturer recommended an eight coat epoxy system. I told him I would fix water issues first, and paint second.The paint comes off in big patches, and the columns  look like mahogony. Is it hard to hold paint on mahogony?

      Thanks greg in Connecticut

      Going to JLC providence?

      1. seeyou | Mar 05, 2007 05:10am | #10

        Minimum SS pitch depends. If it's detailed right, you can go pretty flat on a porch. Pitch doesn't concern me here. Hard to tell what the holes are from, but I don't suspect galvanic action. I suspect a painter nailed something on to access above, but the holes could be easily soldered. There's some weird detailing below the siding - a seam running parallel to the wall that keeps water from entering the top of the standing seam pans - that could be concentrating water near the wall and aggravating the no kickout situation.http://logancustomcopper.com

        http://grantlogan.net/

         

        It's like the whole world's walking pretty and you can't find no room to move. - the Boss

        I married my cousin in Arkansas - I married two more when I got to Utah. - the Gourds

         

         

      2. Piffin | Mar 05, 2007 11:38am | #15

        2/12 wouldbe a minimum pitch in good circumsances, but this is not ideal setting and we don't know if they put I&W under that copper and if they ran it up under the siding and sills.Those holes are probably the first worst item.I have never worked with painting mohagany, only clear coat finishes and interior so I can't help there. 

         

        Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

        1. gzajac | Mar 06, 2007 07:46pm | #19

          Piffin

          Not sure they put ice and water under the copper, but if they did, water from holes probably wouldn't be a problem.

          If I get time I will be up on the roof looking how it terminates at wall intersections and window sills. Thanks

          Greg in Connecticut

  4. theslateman | Mar 04, 2007 08:52pm | #5

    Greg,

    I suspect all of your observations are contributing to the problems you've discussed.

    A lot of overflow from the upper roof valley in a heavy rain,water from the un- guttered bay,etc, must all play a role. 

    What is the roofing on the upper bay and is it flat?  Too hard to see in your picture.  Also too hard to see what the half round gutter/ fascia detail looks like.

    Some slightly higher resolution pictures would help assist in figuring out what route to take to solve these issues.

    Walter

    1. gzajac | Mar 05, 2007 05:15am | #11

      Walter thanks for taking the time to look at this.

      My initial thought was there was too much water coming off the main roof onto this porch area.The bay window is probably copper also, all the rest on the house are.Would it be conceivable to continue the gutter all around the bay window, or is this just impossible?Too much expansion / contraction? Maybe the leaders,from the upper section, could be directed right into the gutter/ or directly onto ground?

      The gutter on this porch section is probably 2/3 the size of the upper one, is this to small for this application.The copper work on this building was done by at least three different degrees of craftsmen.IAppreciate all the insight.

      If I wasn't so old, I would work a week for free with you,  just for the experience. I know I wouldn't learn in a week what it took a lifetime for you to learn. I enjoy looking at the mechanics of an operation and how it relates to what I do as a carpenter. I don't like the people who follow me to dread it.Walter here are a couple more pictures. Thanks

      1. seeyou | Mar 05, 2007 05:39am | #12

        OK, I can see how the wall is flashed and it appears to be OK. That's entirely too much roof going thru one downspout. The upper gutter should continue across the upper bay and the upper downspouts should go to the ground rather than dump on the porch. Bigger gutters and especially bigger downspouts would help the situation.What about the tops of the post capitals? Could water be getting in there?http://logancustomcopper.com

        http://grantlogan.net/

         

        It's like the whole world's walking pretty and you can't find no room to move. - the Boss

        I married my cousin in Arkansas - I married two more when I got to Utah. - the Gourds

         

         

        1. gzajac | Mar 05, 2007 06:41am | #13

          Grant

          The wall flashing does appear to look good, but I wonder how far it goes up the wall.It wouldn't hurt if the capitals were flashed.Every capital that has a caulking worn out, has peeling paint problems.

          Greg in connecticut

      2. User avater
        Jeff_Clarke | Mar 05, 2007 09:49am | #14

        "Is it hard to hold paint on mahogony?"

        It is if not properly primed and if it's sitting in water!

        You can also see in your photo rot16a that an upper roof leader discharges water at 90 degrees to a standing seam joint (bad idea) and that the slope of the roof would completely overshoot the hung gutter in anything more than a moderate rain.

         

        Jeff

        Edited 3/5/2007 1:53 am ET by Jeff_Clarke

      3. theslateman | Mar 05, 2007 12:18pm | #16

        Greg,

        I think you've hit upon it- get that upper roof downspout directed to the ground by itself,not dumping onto the porch at all.  Continue the guttering around the bay area.

        I would even suggest taking off the porch gutter and redoing the fascias so that a flat backed Ogee copper gutter could be installed, It has more capacity, looks as good or better than half round, and can be made to have a positive locked joint at the back so no water can penetrate thru there.

        Sounds like I'd love working with you for a week or longer-certainly not for free! That attitude of wanting to see new techniques is PRICELESS. Thanks for the kind words. My brother and sister in law live in West Hartford-  sooo it  might not be too far fetched to hook up sometime.

        Best regards,  Walter    Heading up to " The Camp" this morning.

         

        1. gzajac | Mar 06, 2007 07:54pm | #20

          Walter

          Thanks for the interest. As you,jeff and stiletto have noted there is a problem with upper gutter and bay window. I am going to advise they run gutter around bay window and run leaders to the ground.

          After I look at copper under windows in this area, I may recommend that the copper mechanic do these window sills also.

          The copper mechanic that did some rework previously was talented and paid attention to the little things.Money is not an issue on this job, just the way I advance the ideas.

          Have fun Camping out.

          Greg in Connecticut

          1. theslateman | Mar 06, 2007 11:19pm | #23

            Greg,

            I'm looking forward to hearing more about the problems you uncover on your next visit. Please post some more shots if you're able.

            Almost  feels like we're involved in a mystery novel- trying to figure out " who dun it ".  I think it helps us all to see different problems and how to go about correcting them.

            Drove back from " the camp" last nite with 3" or more of snow on the roads- a real 4 WD white knuckle adventure. 3 hours of hell.   Walter

      4. Stilletto | Mar 05, 2007 02:20pm | #17

        In the picture Rot 20a. 

        It looks like the upper roof is leaking as well,  the seam in the soffit is pretty discolored,  like roof runoff is coming through it. 

        Are the gutters freezing full of ice and backing up at all?  In another picture (Rot17a) it looked like the fascia was discolored as well.  Like the water was getting behind the gutters and running down the fascia detail. 

         When people don't know what you're about, They put you down and shut you out. 

        1. User avater
          Jeff_Clarke | Mar 05, 2007 03:23pm | #18

          I think that's from valley water totally jumping the gutter.

          Jeff

          1. gzajac | Mar 06, 2007 08:01pm | #22

            Jeff

            Thanks for the interest. I think your correct in your assumption, I am going up there this week to get a better handle on it. Thanks

             

            Greg in Connecticut

        2. gzajac | Mar 06, 2007 07:59pm | #21

          Thanks for the interest .

          The day I looked at this project it just stopped raining 3". There was little or no water coming off roof. Much of the trim under the porch was wet, either from leaks or wind driven rain.

          When I go back this week when itis a little more pleasant, I will investigate this upper situation- could be the same mysterious holes. It is 17degrees  minus 5 windchill here at the present- not into walking on roofs today.

          Greg in Connecticut

  5. User avater
    rjw | Mar 04, 2007 09:44pm | #6

    A someone pointed out - no kick flashing -- with real wood siding that lack indicates the roofer isn't aware of that detail from before the days of vinyl siding. (Many of today's builders - at least in my area -have never heard the term.)

    Tough to say from the pics, but that could be the primry problem.

    My understanding (& experience) is that standing seam first fails at the bends - check them carefully. Once they start to go, time to redo -


    With my mouth I will give great thanks to the Lord; I will praise Him in the midst of the throng. For He stands at the right hand of the needy, to save them from those who would condemn them to death.

    - Psalms 109:30-31

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