Replies

1. 
   calvin | Apr 11, 2009 02:01pm | #1

   Carleton.

   You don't mention a very important system in this house.  Exterior water management.  You don't just shovel it in.  What's your plan out there?

   Oh yeah, best of luck on this project, you'll have a blast...........

   A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.

   Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.

   http://www.quittintime.com/

    

2. 
   Piffin | Apr 11, 2009 02:23pm | #2

   My initials are PFN which I mark on my tools with a Scripto.

   Some body once asked who Piffin is on the job and the rest is history.

   another nickname for a guy working for that came up was also fitting - he was a scraggle beard guy like a billy goat. He asked me if he should or could do such and such and I said Goahead.

   That came out sounding like Goathead, and he made fun of it acting all insulted.

   Of course his nickname was Goathead from then on.

   What were we talking about?

   Oh yeah - I'll take a few of those - BTW, text doesn't take much time to download. Ramble on all you want.

   #1 - I like dirt in the garden, but for backfill under a slab it creates a risk that it will not compact evenly and you end up with settling and/or cracks in the slab. Mineral fill like stone or gravel is far better. Also pay attention to ground water conditions and what provisions you need fop r drainage under that slab. is tadon a concern in you r area?

   #2 - I go double pane with low E. If you have a lot of glass area the triple might be a valid thought, esp where you are exposed to high constant wind. Planting a tree buffer might be better all around though.

   #3 use 1" Thjermax or Tuff-R. It is a polyisoanurate foam R7 with foil face. tape joints with the foil tape.
   Then run rainscreen strapping vertical for your Hardie

   Not sure I understand five and six

    

    

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   Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
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1. 
   hubcap | Apr 11, 2009 02:56pm | #3

   #4

   bigfoot footing forms

   #5

   you can insulate your exterior radiants with ridgid foam 2-4-6"  whatever same as interior

   ditto what Pif said about the backfill- this is not the place to save money

   No Tag

   Edited 4/11/2009 7:58 am ET by hubcap

2. 
   Ted W. | Apr 13, 2009 07:41pm | #25

   My initials are PFN which I mark on my tools with a Scripto.

   And them screws, too. No wonder they're so darn expensive!~ Ted W ~

   Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.netMeet me at House & Builder!

3. 
   egdc | Apr 11, 2009 03:42pm | #4

   My thoughts on the windows..

   Once you get into tight buildings with high levels of insulation the windows quickly become the "biggest hole in the bucket". Most triples are about twice as efficient as doubles, so they are a logical fit.

   They do come at a price, which I think will be coming down as more manufacturers start producing triples. As a side note, my local place pushes Andersens which doesn't sell a triple. My sales guy told me that they are coming out with a line that will have triple glazing as an option sometime this year. So I think its only a matter of time before they become more common, especially in colder climates.

   Which leads me to another point.. 10 years down the road when you go to sell this house (maybe?) and newer houses are being constructed with triples, but your house has "only" doubles, it might make your house seems less favorable on the market.

   They are more expensive, but I'd look closely at it. Do heat losses both ways. And I don't know how your calculating paybacks, but make sure (assuming your financing) you compare the money saved on utilities to the added monthly financing cost. (If you add $50 to your mortgage with energy improvements and they save you $50 a month, there is no payback.)

   Some other opinions..

   I wouldn't skimp on the fill

   the 1" foam at least gives you a thermal brake
   I think 2" can be used with hardie with a strapping/rain screen detail

   if your looking for alternative thermal brakes, look at maybe a "mooney" type wall

   try the bigfoot tubes

   you probably don't want any slabs exposed to the outside, especially one with radiant, that'll be a major heat loss.

1. 
   Piffin | Apr 11, 2009 03:52pm | #5

   I just got my brain warmed up - in your cold climate, the thermax is better used as thermal break on the interior face of the studs anyways 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   daveytree | Apr 11, 2009 06:07pm | #6

   In your area ,can you just ''decrease'' size of your windows with out having or telling someone that [ changing permits? building inspectors? glazing requirments?]Can not get away with that in W.N.Y.

1. 
   CarletonPope | Apr 11, 2009 09:42pm | #7

   Hey everyone,

   Thanks for all the food for thought. Some great ideas here.

   Calvin, sorry for the lack of info, and thanks for picking up on that. I'm pretty much done all my exterior water management. I'm not at all concerned about it anyway, as the house is on top of a hill, the basement is sloped, and the final grades will all divert water away from the house. Having said that, I laid down a bed of gravel, put drain pipe with a filter fabric sock over it around the whole house, and then mounded maybe 18" of gravel on top of it. Drain pipe just drains to daylight. Some of the pipe/gravel is still exposed, some is backfilled. It was a compromise over the filter fabric/gravel burrito that I've read about in FHB articles, but like I said, I didn't dig a hole in low ground, so I'm not too afraid about my basement becoming swimming pool. I also ran peel/stick waterproofing from grade level down and over the footings everywhere around the house. Even the frostwalls, although this seemed like overkill. I taped some cardboard to the peel/stick for a protection board against my rocky backfill. Sorry, I don't have any photos. Maybe I'll see if I can take some...and shrink them! I ran the waterproofing about six feet onto my garage frostwalls, but stopped it there, as there's no living space under the garage.

   Radon's no worry here that I know about.

   I do like the idea of washed rock backfill too, and I've heard that pea gravel is self-compacting...but my excavator overdug the trenches, so there could be $2000 of gravel required to do the filling. If it were $500, I'd be in in a heartbeat, but another couple thousand here and there on a big project, really adds up. I hate to be cheap on the structural components of the house, but I don't think any of  the local builders backfill with gravel.

   Do you guys do gravel all around the outside out of the house too? What should all those gravel bills look like?

   Cool, Piffin. Thanks for the story about the name. Although, I like Goathead. ;)

   Good idea about the trees. We've got some acreage shelterbelt program here, and they're delivering a bunch of trees in May...except the Colorado Spruce we wanted. >:( Can't complain about free trees though. Planning on ringing the property, but paying particular attention to that North side!

   Oh...questions about my climate. Very dry prairie, year-round. Summer gets up to 35 celsius, and winter goes down to -35 celsius. Sometimes...although winters are generally pretty mild. Rains in the Spring sporadically, but not really. Sorry guys, I don't know fahrenheit temps well enough to make a comparison. We do focus mainly on heating in winter though. Not many houses bother with air conditioning. I figure that might be another reason for tri-pane windows? Less heat gain in summer? With a whole-house radiant system, I don't have the flexibility of adding central air conditioning in the future. 

   Hey No Tag...I did use bigfoots. And granted, most of the problem was lack of bracing on my part, but for about half the footings, the tube separated from the base, even though I'd screwed them together according to the manufacturer's specs. The pump guy who came to do my walls was worried about them, and said he'd never seen one work. That's not to say it can't work...I'm sure with the right bracing and backfill, they're just fine...I dropped the ball there, but still, not sure I'd use the product again.

   EGDC, you bring up a really valid point, and it's been spinning around my head for awhile that everyone might have triple-glazed in a while. And let's face it, once I put the windows in, they should stay there for at least 25-50 years. Manufacturer claims their best tri-pane glass is U-.12, while their best dual-pane glass is U-.24. Mind you, that's just on the glazing. Doesn't include the frame. I want to find out what the frames do to the U value.

   As for the slab, do you have any ideas about how not to run it outside, especially in the garage?

   I like Mooney wall a lot, but do not seem able to do my own dense-pack. That sucks.

   Piffin, good point about the rigid on the inside. I guess I'd just have to use longer drywall screws. Hopefully, not having a solid attachment wouldn't affect the integrity of the drywall? Building inspector 100% requires poly on the inside of the wall assembly, and although rigid is often put on the outside here, having a no-perm material on the inside and a low-perm material on the outside still makes me squirm.

   Good points about strapping but sounds like a lot of work for the whole house. Not to mention it might required even more jamb extension on the windows. We're not in a rainy climate, so I don't think there's a huge structural advantage to a rainscreen here.

   Davey, yeah, where I am, no one cares about the sizes of your windows. It's an acreage build, so there aren't any architectural restrictions here. I could spend $20,000 or $20 million building. Building inspector doesn't care, so long as everything is structurally sound in the end. Things are relatively loose in these rural areas...lots of farmer/carpenter/mechanic/welder/electrician/plumber types...who do all jobs that work, just none of them very well. ;)

   Okay, wife is demanding computer...and if I ever want to come back here, I'd better give in. Hopefully I didn't miss anyone's comments, but must run now.

    

   -Carleton

1. 
   calvin | Apr 11, 2009 11:18pm | #8

   I backfilled totally with stone.  I'm in the side of the hill, a qtr mi. from a big river, above the flood plain.  Everything above us come by (directed around-swales) on it's way to the river.

   I have no gutters, put my money in the ground.  20 yrs, no leaks, no water, no dampness.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.

   Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.

   http://www.quittintime.com/

    

2. 
   Piffin | Apr 12, 2009 05:31pm | #15

   It's important to understand your soils when building. Here, I redid a foundation on one at top of a hill - one of the highest points on island, and we had constant water springs. Did alot of stone and perf drains under slab and perimeter both.In CO I lived in a town on bank of the Colorado River at a location that had been a basin once. There was basically washed gravel going down 60-200 feet deep. Nobody there used any kind of foundation drains. 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

3. 
   egdc | Apr 12, 2009 12:50am | #9

   Most manufactures will give you a whole unit u value too..
   for example http://www.thermotechfiberglass.com/case2.htmAs for the slab edge.. I've never done a garage with radiant, but I did a quick sketch of something that might work, using a piece of steel (still a thermal conductor, but much less area).. maybe someone else will have an idea?And the dense pack can be done by anybody.. as long as you can find a blower to rent that's powerful enough.

   
4. 
   daveytree | Apr 12, 2009 01:20am | #10

   Thats Cool man! go for it, Its very rewarding doing jobs like that. good luck!

5. 
   joeh | Apr 12, 2009 04:05am | #11

   I like Mooney wall a lot, but do not seem able to do my own dense-pack. That sucks.

   Why?

   You can buy a machine on Ebay if no other source.

   If you can buy cells locally in bulk rather than through a big box you can get anything else needed on line.

   Joe H

6. 
   CarletonPope | Apr 12, 2009 06:33am | #12

   Hi,

   Cal, sounds like your exterior drainage detailing has really paid off! We're in a similar position, just no river, and not much rain. What rain and snowmelt we do have, The hill we're on might be 75 ft wide or so, and then it drops off about 8 feet on either side. The back of the hill (behind the house) is level with the house, and will be sloped slightly away when we're done, so hopefully, any groundwater will stay away. The house is sitting mainly on sandstone (a real PITA for forming the footings), so hopefully that's won't be a bad thing for trapping water. I guess we'll see.

   EGDC, great drawing! Thanks! That's an excellent idea about using the steel. I really like that. My stem wall is ICF too, so perhaps I can find a heavy gauge steel U channel or something to cap it and make it look nice. Thanks for investing the time into that drawing. That's really awesome of you.

   As for dense pack, I don't know that I can find a blower powerful enough. Even if I can, our cellulose distributor won't sell their dense pack product to me. They say it's quite a bit different from their regular cellulose. On another thread, I was told that the ordinary cellulose might work fine, so I should probably investigate...I just don't like to use one product when the manufacturer doesn't support its use in walls.

   Davey, thanks for the best wishes!

   I'll do some more checking on the internet for the dense pack stuff.

    

   -Carleton

7. 
   joeh | Apr 12, 2009 07:56pm | #16

   our cellulose distributor won't sell their dense pack product to me. They say it's quite a bit different from their regular cellulose. 

   Sounds like their extra special BS is better than their usual BS.........

   Cells are cells, the only difference is how many pounds per cubic foot you install.

   You're being lied too.

   Joe H

   View ImageMight help to contact this manufacturers group. Find out who is local to you and try buying direct. They have a picture of a Mooney Wall on the site.

   http://www.cellulose.ca/

   Or click on members and find this in Edmonton

   Can-Cell Industries, Inc.14735 -- 124 AvenueEdmonton, AB T5L 3B2780-447-1255800-661-5031 Toll-Free780-447-1034 FAX[email protected]http://www.can-cell.com

   Edited 4/12/2009 1:08 pm by JoeH

   Edited 4/12/2009 1:19 pm by JoeH

8. 
   Piffin | Apr 12, 2009 05:22pm | #14

   Rainscreen isn't a structural thing. It is a moisture copmtrol technique.With the Thermax inside, I use strapping also. That makes it easier for SR without long screws and makes that radiant bar work for you 

    

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2. 
   Piffin | Apr 12, 2009 05:17pm | #13

   not much control on that here. 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

4. 
   oberon476 | Apr 12, 2009 10:21pm | #17

   One comparison of dual pane window to triple pane window is like comparing a 2x4 wall to a 2x6 wall.   A 2x6 wall does provide improved energy perfromance over a 2x4 wall and a triple pane window is going to provide improved energy performance over a dual pane window - with a caveat.

   A dual pane window with a dual or triple layer softcoat LowE coating will equal or exceed the performance of a clear glass triple pane. In order to achieve higher energy perfomance from a triple it is necessary, at a minimum, to coat at least one lite in the triple - preferably two of the three lites.

   Triple panes with LowE coating to two surfaces and gas fill will be required to meet the US 2012 Energy Star zone 5 requirement in 2012. By 2015 they will be needed to meet both zone 4 and zone 5.

   In most parts of the US a coated dual pane window will meet pretty much anyone's requirements for improved energy performance.  But in the far north the coated triple pane can be a really nice add on - and where you live triple pane can be a significant advantage.

   Triples are often krypton filled.  Krypton is expensive - last I heard something like 600 times the cost of argon.  If the triple is built using narrow airspaces (~1/4" or less), then krypton will be the most cost effective gas to use since the energy improvement by using krypton in the narrow space is considerably better than using argon.

   However, triples are also made using wider airspaces (> 3/8" airspace). In those units using argon is substantially more cost effective than using krypton as gas infill. And while the energy performance numbers for argon at 7/16" airspace is not quite as good as using krypton, it is a heck of a lot more cost effective.

   As you noted, what else triple panes can be is heavy.  In a window that is engineered and built correctly this shouldn't be a problem in window operation or longevity, but the installers may not always be thrilled.

   In addition, there are some engineering and construction challenges for the IG manufacturer when building triples. It isn't simply a matter of slapping a third lite to a dual (although to some folks that's about the extent of their engineering). To the more conscientious manufacturers there is careful consideration of the differences between dual and triple constructions to ensure that the triples will perform as advertised and that they will last as long as required.

   All else being equal, triples do outperform duals in overall energy performance. This can be a very significant improvement in terms of overall home energy performance.

   In the right circumstances there is the bang for the buck that justifies the additional cost (which may not be that significant - look around at what is out there) of triples. In the not quite right circumstances they are probably overkill and may not be worth the extra cost or consideration.   It gets cold where you live - I would look very positively at triple pane windows were I you.

    

1. 
   Piffin | Apr 12, 2009 10:36pm | #18

   Dang, your info value per post ratio has GOT to be one of the highest on this forum! bravo. 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   oberon476 | Apr 12, 2009 10:50pm | #19

   Thanks Piffin. 

    

2. 
   egdc | Apr 13, 2009 04:00am | #20

   Any triple manufacturer recommendations?I've priced thermotechs in the past.. and I know paradigm makes some in a vinyl.

1. 
   oberon476 | Apr 13, 2009 04:17am | #21

   Since I work with a number of different window manufacturers, I don't recommend or compare different companies...sorry.

   However, if you follow the link you will find information on most of the window companies in North America. 

   http://search.nfrc.org/search/cpd/cpd_search_default.aspx?type=W

1. 
   Piffin | Apr 13, 2009 04:22am | #22

   Leaving aside the question of brand names, why would anyonme want to put a triple pane in a #### VINYL window??!!! 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   oberon476 | Apr 13, 2009 05:05am | #23

   While not everyone likes to use them, there are actually some very good vinyl windows out there....and some very poor ones.

   Wood and vinyl are very close from an energy efficiency stand point, with fiberglass being a little less efficient and aluminum (even with thermal break) being less efficient yet. 

   Typically you aren't going to get a triple IG package in a junk vinyl window, a triple pane IG is just too expansive.  If you get a vinyl triple it isn't likely going to be in one of the "$99.95 specials". 

   For example, here is test information on a particular vinyl window:

   US Product Ratings - Test specimen size, Air tightness, Water tightness, Wind load resistance

   Dual Action T&T Window

   inches 39 3/8 x 63

   air tightness in cfm/sqft  0.003

   water tightness in psf  14.6

   DP in PSF100

   U.13

   SHGC .17

    

    

    

   Edited 4/12/2009 10:15 pm ET by Oberon

2. 
   Piffin | Apr 13, 2009 02:17pm | #24

   I was thinking in terms of how vinyl moves so much thermally and is weak to hold all that weight in say a casement without saging. 

    

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3. 
   oberon476 | Apr 14, 2009 04:16am | #27

   Figure that vinyl has about 6 times the expansion rate of glass, sounds like a lot but when figuring that glass expands about 1/64" at a 100 degree F temp change, and vinyl will expand about 3/32" in identical conditions.  Just a bit of engineering needed to make sure that the seal between the glass and the vinyl isn't compromised. 

   Of course not all companies pay attention to such things.  Like so many other industries, there are some very good products available and some very bad products available.

   The numbers that I listed in the previous post were for the windows that I put into my daugter's new home with the exception that her windows have a U-factor of .17 not .13 as listed.  The difference relates to a different airspace width and a different LowE coating than was used to get the .13 in the example. 

   I should have used the other coating but at the time I spec'd her windows I thought that the "other coating" wasn't going to have that much effect on the U-factor.  Actually, I still don't think that it should be that much better, but apparently it is. 

   Still, she is not complaining about U .17. 

   Her windows are tilt/turn or dual action - which is common in Europe but much less so in North America.  These windows are engineered so that the IG is actually part of the sash structure to help avoid sagging.  From what I have seen, it works really well. 

   As an aside, she built on a slab and her living room floor had to be ripped up and repoured during construction.  The floor was repoured in february on a day when it was -20F outside.   And while the glass and metal face of her fireplace was something like a waterfall, there was zero condensation on any of her windows despite the moisture in her house from the newly poured concrete. 

    

   Edited 4/13/2009 9:22 pm ET by Oberon

4. 
   CarletonPope | Apr 13, 2009 08:12pm | #26

   Hi Guys,Moisture control vs structural...Piffin, nothing gets by you. I'd better make sure I check every last syllable before posting. ;) But that's good.I like your idea about the Thermax. As I understand foil barriers, you do need that 3/4" of airspace to make it work properly, eh? I wonder if I would piss off the building inspector by wraping the inside of the house before the partition walls go up...probably not. None of them are load bearing, so it shouldn't matter. Cool idea. I'm going to look into that some more.What's with the vinyl hate-on? ;) Almost all new windows up here are vinyl-in, vinyl-out. Low maintenance, easy, better thermal efficiency in the frame, RELATIVELY cheap, hehe. I don't want to pay another 30% ($10K) to have metal windows and wood jambs...that I'll just have to sand, finish, and maintain anyway. But, that is personal preference. A lot of the $2M showhomes here have vinyl windows. At least vinyl on the inside, maybe metal on the outside. Didn't look.Sorry, what's SR?Hey Joe, thanks very much for the info. Sorry, I lied when I said "distributor." I was actually talking about Can-Cell themselves. All the info I gave you was what they told me. They claim slightly higher R-value for their wall-bar product, but more than that, say it's got some kind of adhesive in it. And blah blah blah, you have to be a licensed contractor to buy it. Maybe you guys are onto something with just blowing in the regular stuff with a powerful blower. Hehe, maybe these dill-weeds won't even sell me the mesh to cap off the stud bays. Well, I can figure something out there.Oberon, ditto with Piffin. You're the window god!I'm comparing either dual-pane 1 coat TiR/Argon, and dual-pane 2 coats TiR/Argon. I don't have the book in front of me, but I seem to remember their claim on the glass is U-.24 vs U-.12, respectively. Cool info on krypton, I hadn't realized there was such a big difference. CWD, the manufacturer I'm looking at, only offers argon, I believe.I'm the window installer, with some family, so yeah, not impressed by the weight of a 6'x5' tri-pane window that will need to get installed 15' up on a hillside. Might look into field glazing.Thanks for all the great info. I'll sure take it into account when making my decision. Very interesting info on the changing energy star requirements.Piffin, CWD puts steel reinforcement into all oversize windows, and in situations where extra strength is needed. Perhaps more into tri-panes due to the extra weight, we would hope. Now, that's taking their word for it...but I won't be too motivated to cut open my window to have a look. ;) There are probably lots of manufacturers (and smaller window sizes) that don't both with the steel though.Fiberglass looks sweet, but at another $20,000, it's just not going to happen!-Carleton

5. 
   CarletonPope | Apr 14, 2009 07:14am | #28

   Oh, I think I forgot to include this link to show the construction of the CWD vinyls I've been looking at:http://www.cwdwindows.com/windows-vinyl/index.html and then click on "benefits"Doesn't show the steel reinforcing, but to my eye anyway, looks a hell of a lot more substantial than some of the other cheapy brands and product lines I've seen.-Carleton

6. 
   Piffin | Apr 14, 2009 01:56pm | #29

   SR = sheetrock.I'll admit to being somewhat ignorant of vinyl windows, partly because of my prejudice, but also because I haven't been forced to use them. My clients generally prefer wood over even a clad wood window.For more economy I have been using the Marvin Integrity line of windows which is a FG composite with wood veneer interior. It is solid and stable with same expansion rates as glass. won't rot and easy to paint and less expensive than wood or clad units from them.There is a vinyl maker within twenty miles of me that a lot of people around like - supposed to be top quality stuff, but each time I've price compared with them, I found them to be within 5% of the same price as Andersen. Not much price savings there.I just now learned from Oberon that some makers employ steel reinforcing to overcome the lack of stability ( where the glass is the structural part of some vinyl sashes)
   One other cause of my prejudice is that UV causes vinyl to deteriorate over time, making it brittle. I was working on a house this past year with vinyl windows and just touched one with my prybar and it cracking and threw a piece loose - maybe 20 years old. I see a lot of wood sashes that are 100+ years old that are fine having had good paint all that time. I have a hard time believing that all these vinyl windows will still be performing well in 40 years.This is not any attempt to talk you out of vinyl - just answering your Q. I don't have any emotional 'hate' on vinyl, just a rational prejudice in favor of other materials for my work. 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

7. 
   oberon476 | Apr 14, 2009 03:26pm | #30

   I'm comparing either dual-pane 1 coat TiR/Argon, and dual-pane 2 coats TiR/Argon. I don't have the book in front of me, but I seem to remember their claim on the glass is U-.24 vs U-.12, respectively. Cool info on krypton, I hadn't realized there was such a big difference. CWD, the manufacturer I'm looking at, only offers argon, I believe.

   Ti-R is a soft-coat LowE coating from AGC (formerly AFG).   It uses titanium rather than silver as the "active" portion of the coating.  This is unique in the industry since all the other coaters use silver. 

   AGC claims that their Ti products have the lowest emissivity numbers in the industry, which isn't actually true, but from a homeowner's perspective whether your coating has an emissivity factor of .024 (current best) or .03 (Ti coating) you likely would never even realize there was a difference - unless some geek like me happened to mention it.   

   Unless I misread, in your post you mention dual pane with single LowE and dual LowE coatings haveing U-factors of .24 and .12.  Although .24 is possible with a dual pane IG, .12 is not.  In a dual pane window, U .24 would be a very good number.  In fact, it is as good as any that I know of for a dual pane window.  I am curious about single coat and double coat LowE coating that you mention though.  Is that how the company described the coating? 

   Some folks interpret (and some window companies incorrectly advertise) that LowE2 is two separate coatings.  In some cases salesfolks will say that they coat both lites of a dual pane window (bad idea) and in some cases they will claim that the glass is coated twice (can't happen).  The "2" in LowE2 actually means the number of layers of silver (or in AGC's case - titanium) in the coating.  The number originally comes from Cardinal's nomenclature for windows where they call their dual-silver coatings LoE².  Anyway, I am simply curious how the window company is advertising their coating. 

    

8. 
   joeh | Apr 14, 2009 06:22pm | #31

   . They claim slightly higher R-value for their wall-bar product, but more than that, say it's got some kind of adhesive in it. And blah blah blah, you have to be a licensed contractor to buy it. Maybe you guys are onto something with just blowing in the regular stuff with a powerful blower. Hehe, maybe these dill-weeds won't even sell me the mesh to cap off the stud bays. Well, I can figure something out there.

   Their regular cells are the Weathershield stuff, that's all you need to DP.

   If they won't sell to you I guess you're screwed, looks like they're the only game in your province.

   Joe H

9. 
   CarletonPope | Apr 15, 2009 07:28am | #32

   Hey Joe,

   Thanks for the tip on the weathershield. I can buy weathershield wherever I want...it's their "special" dense pack wall product (WallBar) that I can't buy anywhere. Whatever, if weathershield works fine too, then maybe I'll be looking for a powerful enough blower and some of this mesh to staple across the studs. I'm sure I can find the latter online, if not locally. The more I reflect on it, the more I like Mooneywall.

   Hey Oberon, sorry about the typo. I shouldn't post after midnight. ;) When I said two coats of low-e and two argon fill, I was talking about the triple-glazing.

   VERY interesting observation about low-E vs. TiR! If memory serves, CWD (manufacturer) claims that their dual-pane low-e is R-3.33, and dual-pane TiR is R-4.17. That is a measurement at the centre of the glass. How can they get away with claiming such an inflated R-value if it's not actually real?!

   Yeah, U-.24 is CWD's top DUAL-pane window, which is 1 argon, and 1 coat TiR. However, again, that's a centre of glass measurement. Doesn't take frame into account, I'm afraid. I have no idea how that affects the measurement, but I'll bet it is not in my favour. ;) The U-.12 is CWD's best TRIPLE-pane window, which is 2 argon, and 2 coats TiR. Again though, centre of glass measurement. Not complete window glass & frame performance.

   Of interest, I was in about 20 different showhomes today...maybe from 6-7 different major builders. Only 1 of them ever uses tri-pane windows. The builder is called Jayman Masterbuilt, and they really go for the energy efficiency kick. As well, all of their houses seem to have pre-fabed wall assemblies of 2x6, R-20 fiberglass, 1" XPS foam, then OSB. Surprisingly to me, they still use fiberglass batts in the rim joist, which seems a little odd given all the other detail they seem to put into their houses. All the other builders' salespeople told me that tri-pane weren't important in our province, and they never use them. I guess they're always used in Winnipeg, Manitoba, but it's REALLY cold there, for a REALLY long time...seem to be lots of mixed feelings in the local market.

   Again though, I guess we come back to the fact that these windows will hopefully be in the house for 30-50 years, and maybe doing top-of-the-line (thermally) is the responsible choice. Not only for myself, but for any future people who own the house. Decisions, decisions....

   Hey Piffin, neat info about your circumstances with windows. I wish I could get fiberglass/wood windows as a reasonable alternative to the vinyl price here. Just not going to happen, I'm afraid. :( 30-50% seems to be the difference...at a minimum. And when it's a whole-house package...that's a lot of coin. Those better products would likely make a better build, and look 1000x better too. And you can paint fiberglass, I understand. With vinyl, I either get 50 years of white, or 50 years of beige. I'll be going beige...I hope I REALLY like it! ;)

   To be absolutely honest in my opinions, I happen to think that vinyl is a bit ugly and crappy...but with economics, efficiency, and lack of maintenance all on its side in a big way (in my locale), I just can't argue.

    

   -Carleton

10. 
    Piffin | Apr 15, 2009 02:03pm | #33

    FWIW, Sherwin Williams has paint for vinyl.And by the time you get ready to think about changing colours, everybody probably will. 

     

    Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

11. 
    CarletonPope | Apr 15, 2009 07:30pm | #34

    Good to know. Thx!

12. 
    joeh | Apr 15, 2009 08:08pm | #35

    I've painted vinyl windows with spray cans.

    Rustoleum & Krylon both make a paint for vinyl, has picture of plastic lawn chairs on the cans.

    Krylon sprays easier and has a better surface finish too.

    Cleaned them with lacquer thinner, instructions said use paint thinner but I've always thought that leaves a kinda oily residue.

    Scrubbed them with a green 3M pad & sprayed two good coats.

    Only a year since I did it, but so far they look good.

    Joe H

13. 
    oberon476 | Apr 18, 2009 01:50am | #36

    Hey Oberon, sorry about the typo. I shouldn't post after midnight. ;) When I said two coats of low-e and two argon fill, I was talking about the triple-glazing.

    VERY interesting observation about low-E vs. TiR! If memory serves, CWD (manufacturer) claims that their dual-pane low-e is R-3.33, and dual-pane TiR is R-4.17. That is a measurement at the centre of the glass. How can they get away with claiming such an inflated R-value if it's not actually real?!

    Yeah, U-.24 is CWD's top DUAL-pane window, which is 1 argon, and 1 coat TiR. However, again, that's a centre of glass measurement. Doesn't take frame into account, I'm afraid. I have no idea how that affects the measurement, but I'll bet it is not in my favour. ;) The U-.12 is CWD's best TRIPLE-pane window, which is 2 argon, and 2 coats TiR. Again though, centre of glass measurement. Not complete window glass & frame performance.

    CarletonPope, 

    No problem, I could name a couple of window companies that advertise that they use two coats of LowE on dual panes - and in one case (at least), I know that they are incorrect.  Marketing versus production folks...whoever sets up the website.

    Center-of-glass R-value is a valid number for some types of glass and energy  comparison's, but it isn't valid  for determining the true performance of a window system.   I would consider that any company converting the center-of-glass R-value to U-value and then advertising that number as U-value performance is at best misleading and at worst a deliberate lie.  I would be wary of trusting a company that uses that sort of tactic.

    As you mention, overall U-factor (the correct term for the entire window assembly) is going to be higher than the center-of-glass number.  In that context, center-of-glass is not valid and the numbers used by the manufacturer to advertise their performance are virtually meaningless.

    Edited 4/17/2009 6:55 pm ET by Oberon

14. 
    CarletonPope | Jun 03, 2009 10:25am | #37

    Hi Everyone,

    I've started building my house again this last month. That means I've spent a lot of time playing in the dirt, trying to get everything ready for framing.

    I'll try to post some new pics of my project on here. I've taken a few lately, but I can't find the cable that connects the camera to the computer, so it'll have to wait a bit. And yes, I've figured out how to shrink photos. Piffin. ;)

    Anyway, I have a few questions that I'm hoping you guys might have some suggestions on:

    BACKFILL

    I just spent a romantic day with a jumping jack in sandy soil (I don't recommend this, or ever using a jumping jack, if you can at all avoid it). Anyway, I've decided to swallow the expense of having some kind of gravel fill delivered, like some of you recommended in the first place! ;) I'll probably need about 80 yards of fill total.

    All this filling is for trenches that are located under future concrete slabs in the basement and garage. Washed pea gravel is about $40/yard. Screeded pea gravel is $30/yard. 3/4" washed rock is $25+/yard. 3/4" Road crush is $20/yard. Lastly, something called compaction screed rock is about $15/yard. This is what the gravel supplier recommended I use. He said it packs really nice in 6" lifts with a bit of moisture and a vibrating plate tamper. I've heard that pea gravel is self-compacting, but at the high price, I'm not sure how much better it is than anything I have to compact. I'm not really much of an expert on compacting soils, but I know it has to be done! Any ideas on what might be best?

    WALL SYSTEM

    I've decided to go with rigid foam for my extra insulation on exterior walls. I liked the mooney wall system, but there simply don't seem to be any powerful insulation blowers locally, along with a number of other local challenges. Anyway, I'm thinking that when I frame my walls on the floor deck, I will cover the framing with 1" EPS white styro, and then place the OSB on top of that, fastening it through to the framing with 3-1/4" nails. I'm going to check into the construction details of this system tomorrow, but I just thought I would throw this idea into the forum to see if anybody had comments/concerns?

    The biggest local builder uses this wall detail. I'm not sure how they fasten the wall together yet (will know tomorrow), but they use a 1" owens-corning pink styro over the wall studs, then OSB on top, and so on.

    The reason I want the OSB on the outside is to make installing housewrap easier, and have a hard surface to put exterior finishes onto. I would install 2" foam board, but I understand Hardiplank is only warrantied over a maximum of 1" foam. Otherwise I'd have to strap the house, and that seems like a bit too much extra work at this point. Given it only really rains here in June...sometimes...any kind of rainscreen detail is extraordinarily rare.

    WINDOWS

    Oberon, if you get this, I'm wondering if you have any commentary on Cardinal glass. I requoted my window package with a different local company (Gienow windows), and they've just switched to this glass supplier. Seems they have a LowE3 glass that in dual-glazed form, kills 76% of solar heat gain, 99% of UV infiltration, and still lets through about 50% of visible light. Seems like incredible performance for one surface of lowE. The insulating glass units also come with 20-year warranties, so Cardinal's product is looking pretty attractive. The only thing I can find wrong with the IG units is they don't use a foam spacer...it's still called a warm-edge spacer, but incorporates steel, silicone, etc. as opposed to foam spacers. Perhaps that's how they can have a better warranty on their IG units.

     

    -Carleton

15. 
    oberon476 | Jun 04, 2009 05:07am | #38

    [quote]Oberon, if you get this, I'm wondering if you have any commentary on Cardinal glass. I requoted my window package with a different local company (Gienow windows), and they've just switched to this glass supplier. Seems they have a LowE3 glass that in dual-glazed form, kills 76% of solar heat gain, 99% of UV infiltration, and still lets through about 50% of visible light. Seems like incredible performance for one surface of lowE. The insulating glass units also come with 20-year warranties, so Cardinal's product is looking pretty attractive. The only thing I can find wrong with the IG units is they don't use a foam spacer...it's still called a warm-edge spacer, but incorporates steel, silicone, etc. as opposed to foam spacers. Perhaps that's how they can have a better warranty on their IG units.

     

    Carleton, 

    Cardinal is the 800lb gorilla of the residential glass market.   While LowE2 and LowE3 are used generically  for dual and triple silver coatings, they are taken from Cardinal's nomenclature for their dual and triple silver LowE coatings called LoE² and LoE³ in part because something better than 60% of residential coated glass used in North America comes from Cardinal. 

    They were the first to introduce the triple silver LowE coating to the market with the introduction of the LoE³-366 - which is the coating that you are describing.

    However, the numbers that you presented are a little off.  One of the really nice things about Cardinal's nomenclature is that the number describe the glass/coating.  In other words, LoE³-366 has three layers of silver in the coating and a visible transmittance of 66%.  But, when used in a window, the entire window is used to determine the listed VT, not just the glass, so that a window VT of 50% or .5 would include the effect of sash and frame compnents as well as any grills or muntins used.

    A dual pane IG with 366 coating has a SHGC of .27.  Put another way, the relative heat gain of the IG would be 66 Btu/hr/ft² compared with a clear glass dual pane at 172 - 189 Btu/hr/ft² (depending on glass thickness - a non-factor when using the coating) - a three times improvement over clear. 

    The only way to block 99% of UV, though, is to use laminated glass.  No coating will block that percentage of UV light; but 366 does block about 95% of UV light.  However (again), visible light will also contribute to fading and 366 does a better job  overall of providing protection against fading than does clear laminated glass - despite the fact that laminated glass is better at blocking UV.

    The one area where the manufacturer of the most well known foam spacer system really excells is in marketing.  They have a program that is second to none in just about any industry that one can think of.  Hats off to them and their truly excellent marketing program. 

    In the real world, I would invite anyone to drop over to the NFRC site and do some comparisons of window systems made with different spacers.  You will discover that the LowE coating, the width of the airspace, and the sash/frame materials are all substantially more important than is the material of the spacer.   This is not to say that a low conductance spacer is not a good thing - it is.  But, the differences in thermal performance between different spacer systems is a good bit less than some marketing programs would have folks believe. 

    For example.  the popular foam spacer really does have the best thermal performance in the industry.  Assuming the 366 coating in a dual pane IG unit, and a delta-T of 70° (0° outside and 70° inside and assuming no wind), the foam spacer will have an inside edge temperature of 42°. 

    The next best is TPS, or thermal plastic spacer,  which comes in at 41.8°.  Next is a plastic coated stainless spacer system (that I don't believe is available in North America, but is in Europe) at 41.1°. 

    Then comes the Cardinal XL (that you mentioned) and the "better" butyl system at 39.2°.

    And finally the U-shaped steel spacer (most widely used system in North America) at 35.5° and finally poor old aluminum at 32.8°. 

    So what does all this mean in terms of overall energy performance? 

    Well in a standard wood or vinyl frame and assuming a 6 ft² (I can't remember the exact size, so don't quote me here - I could be wrong about the window size) fixed window, the overall U-factor calculation using the different spacers equates to:

    foam spacer - .27

    TPS - .27

    plastic coated stainless steel  - .27

    Cardinal XL (or other thin-walled stainless) - .27

    butyl - .28

    U-steel - .28

    and aluminum - - - .29

    Keeping in mind that the "edge" of the glass in a window system is the outer 2 1/2".  Anything inside that outer 2 1/2" is considered to be center-of-glass and inside that outer edge the spacer no longer has an effect on the glass temperature.

    And for anyone who might think that I have all those numbers memorized, I do have to say that I am (hopefully!) not that much of a nerd; I did use a couple of different industry references that are not generally available to the public, including Cardinal's Residential Glass Technical Guide which had the 366 and XL spacer information.

     

16. 
    CarletonPope | Jun 04, 2009 11:23am | #39

    Hey Oberon,

    Thanks very much for that awesome response! I promise to respond in kind when I'm awake enough! I have a couple other things to pick your brain on...when mine's working.

    Oh, and sorry about my screwed up numbers. I looked at my information again, and I gave the numbers for a triple-glazed window with 2 coats of LowE3-366. Here's the link: http://www.gienow.com/options-glass.html

    I found out in the last week that the Alberta government is giving $10,000 to builders who meet Energuide 86 rating on new houses. Finally, an incentive for thermally efficient NEW construction! Anyway, I've just spent the last couple hours sending a bunch of information to an energy consulting firm so they can model my house and recommend what I can do to get my $10,000 cheque! ;) Let's hope for the best.

    As an aside for everyone, I just got results of a soils test back this afternoon. This test is for my septic field location, and not directly in my basement. I had augered 10-12 holes about 3 feet deep, pulled the auger up, and taken equal 2-cup samples off the auger from each hole and combined them. The augering and sampling process should have skewed the sample in favour of clay, if anything...but here are the results.

     

    Physical and Aggregate Properties

    Texture Sandy Loam

    Sand 50 ëm - 2 mm % by weight 56.0

    Silt 2 ëm - 50 ëm % by weight 31.2

    Clay <2 ëm % by weight 12.8

     

    The soil in my basement is even more sandy than this sample! So, I guess it's no wonder that a jumping jack doesn't work worth ####. ;) I live, I learn.

    Most of my footings are resting on sandstone, in fact. Is this a good soil to be resting on? I've heard mixed things. It was sure a PITA to hammerdrill through it to place my curb stakes for footings.

     

    -Carleton

17. 
    oberon476 | Jun 04, 2009 02:46pm | #40

    No trouble.  More than happy to offer whatever I can.

     

18. 
    CarletonPope | Jun 04, 2009 06:58pm | #41

    Hi Oberon,

    All right, feeling better this morning...time to do some work today.

    I had no idea Cardinal was such a huge company. I guess that's why they have such up-to-date technology on LowE. Big R&D department.

    Something that blew me away...I have about 1 entry door, 1 garage door, 2 garden/patio doors, and 21 windows...none of them are that incredibly huge though. My window supplier said that because I have an extra thick wall (due to rigid insulation), he would have to use finger-joint pine jamb extensions. I didn't like that idea, so I asked him to remove jamb extensions altogether, and give me a quote that simply has drywall returns, and I'll attach a wood sill to the bottom. The quote dropped from $16,500 to $14,000. I was dumbfounded that finger-joint jamb extensions applied to the frame were so much money. I can only imagine how much stain-grade jambs add to a project. Obviously, I'm delighted to do the windows jambs/sills myself now.

    Something I get really confused about is how good lowE coatings are at keeping heat inside the house, versus how much beneficial sun they keep out. I love the idea of LowE-366 to offer me more control in regulating interior temperatures, but obviously, it's blocking a huge amount of the solar heat gain that seems so prized in passive solar house design. Is it being more helpful than other lowE coating in terms of keeping more heat in? During the winter of course. I guess the ER rating we have in Canada is the best way to gauge this, but no one seems to advertise these numbers. I have the sales guy from the window manufacturer running around with their engineering department trying to find me ER ratings, etc.

    The only problem I have with the ER number is that it's all about heat gain/loss in the heating season. It doesn't take into account June, July, and August, when a strong sun beats all the glazing on the West side of the house and overheats the home, possibly necessitating air conditioning (which I'd rather avoid, if I can).

    To my thinking (which could be wrong), the solar heat gain on the West side of the house in the winter is almost negligible, because the sun is only shining on them a couple hours a day. Whereas the heat those windows lose from the house is probably more meaningful. But these same West facing windows will turn the house into a oven come summertime, when that hot sun beats on them for 6-7 hours of the day. Do you recommend switching up the glazing options and types of lowE coatings on different sides of the house based on their orientation to the sun?

    Okay, time for work. Thanks again for all your posts. They're super informative!

    -Carleton

19. 
    oberon476 | Jun 05, 2009 04:34am | #42

    Carleton,

    Keep in mind that there are high solar heat gain LowE coatings and low solar heat gain LowE coatings.   A high solar gain coating on the west side of your house is not an advantage at any time of year.   The heat gain in summer can be overwhelming.

    If I were building new, and I had a great southern exposure, I would personally opt for high efficiency / high solar gain windows on the south side and high efficiency Low solar gain windows on the north, east, and west sides. 

    As you have already found from your research, Cardinal's 366 is a very high efficiency, low solar gain coating.  This is ideal for three sides of your home. 

    Since we have been discussing Cardinal, I will mention that they recently introduced a new sigle-silver, or high solar heat gain, coating called LoE-179.   This coating replaced their older high solar heat gain LoE-178 coating.  

    The 179 coating on the #3 surface of a dual pane wood or vinyl window has a SHGC of .70 and a U-value of .3 compared with SHGC of .27 and U-factor of .28 for the 366. 

    Again, keep in mind that while 60% of heat gain and loss thru a window is radiant; and while the 366 is a good bit better at blocking radiant heat loss than is the 178; the winter time solar gain advantage on southern exposure windows could very well offset the loss of radiant heat-blocking efficiency that faovrs the 366 coating. 

20. 
    CarletonPope | Jun 08, 2009 01:21am | #48

    Hey Oberon,

    Thanks for the counsel. What you say makes great sense. I will check more into the high-solar-gain lowE coatings for the South side of the house though. Can't say no to free heat.

    Had I the chance to go back in time now, I would have tried to design the house to make the most use of passive solar techniques, with more South-facing glass instead of West-facing glass. As it is though, I still have over 100 sq. ft. of South glass between the garage and South wall of the house. I'm trying to rely almost completely on passive solar to heat the garage, but will be providing supplemental radiant heat if necessary.

    Jon, thanks for the heads-up on the sheathing over the foam. I chatted with the building inspector, and he says it's fine, but I might need some steel strap cross-bracing directly on top of the studs. I have to price that out, but if it's reasonable (can't see why materials would be expensive), I don't mind doing it.

    Building inspector even preferred EPS (white beadboard) foam over the XPS (pink/blue), due to vapour permeability issues (we have to use a full vapour barrier like 6mil poly just under our drywall). That was good to hear.

    On an aside, I'm seriously considering something Piffin recommended to me (foil-faced foam on the interior of my wall assembly, then strapping it for drywall...makes a 3/4" air space for the radiant barrier to do its work as well)...but I'm waiting for a price on the sheets.

    I have no interior bearing walls in my house, as roofs are either clear-span, or loads are taken up in girder trusses. This way, I could insulate every last square foot of exterior walls from the inside, and frame my interior walls after. That means the only weak link is along the edge of the subfloor, and the ends of I-joists in the floor system. It seems pretty marginal, but I figure I could hold the edge of my floor system back from the edge of the exterior wall a bit. That would let me stick 1" of rigid styro onto the outside of that surface (probably EPS/XPS foam), which would still meet Hardiplank's requirement for no more than 1" of foam. That system sounds like it should kill almost all thermal bridging...and I could install it from the inside, so it's not weather dependent, and I'm not up on a ladder, swearing up a storm.

    All this thinking...and so many different decisions...I'm starting to wish I'd just spent the extra $15-20K and poured my ICFs all the way up to the rafters! Well, now I'll know for next time.

    My window supplier even quoted me to save $2500 by omitting window jambs, and only have drywall returns in their place. So, as in most ICF construction, I'll be furnishing my jamb stuff afterall!

    Anyway, I'm ready for sill plates, so I'll finally have to make my decision on wall insulation now.

    Any last thoughts, guys?

    As an aside, I'm reading Rob Thallon's book "Graphic Guide to Frame Construction" right now. This is one of the best, if not the best resource I have found for visuals on how to construct different aspects of foundations, frame walls, etc.

     

    -Carleton

21. 
    jonblakemore | Jun 05, 2009 05:32am | #44

    "And finally the U-shaped steel spacer"

    Oberon,

    Would the PPG Intercept be a "U-shaped steel spacer"?

     

    Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA

22. 
    oberon476 | Jun 05, 2009 01:55pm | #45

    It would - I was trying to stay generic

     

23. 
    jonblakemore | Jun 05, 2009 04:36pm | #46

    Thanks. 

    Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA

24. 
    oberon476 | Jun 06, 2009 03:26am | #47

    No trouble

    You're welcome

25. 
    jonblakemore | Jun 05, 2009 05:06am | #43

    I would check with the building department on the sheathing over the foam.I'm not sure that would fly here, especially with 1" foam. 

    Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA