OK, here is the thread. The one in which we can thrash out the age-old issue, “which roof framing method is best . . . stickframed or trussed.
For the sake of the argument here, let’s clear aside all those house designs that can only fly as a stickframed arrangement. You know, those for which the owners and their architect want right-up-to-the-rafters vaults, and other kinds of conditions that demand conventional sawn-lumber structural solutions.
Let’s bring forth the facts from all the research that can be dug up. Facts like board-footage comparisons, manhour comparisons, schedule time lost or saved, and all the rest.
Let’s dispense with all the gut feelings and pride and casual opinions and stick with facts. I’m sure that for every roof cutting master, bigfoot and-chainsaw gang cutter, old timer with her square and pencils, and CM Pro wiz there is out there, there is a truss plant that’s installed another laser table press, CNC saw, or optomizing program, or hired a new crackerjack designer. Both sides have a lot to crow about . . . but this thread isn’t about crowing.
If you only build stick, and want to come here and tell us how straight and true everything is, you just haven’t seen enough out there, because there certainly are wavy stickframed jobs being done by hacks, just as there are straight and true truss jobs put up by folks as careful as you.
And please keep in mind when making comments and comparisons, that a trussed job usually addresses both sides of a roof structure, those being the roof planes above and the ceiling planes below.
Gentlemen, start your keyboards, now!
Replies
Gene,
I'll let others speak to material economics, but there is another issue. I work alone. I can stick frame anything by myself. That really is also an economic issue. I can assure you that I am more productive per manhour than a crew that is untrained & mostly poorly skilled who stand around waiting for someone else to do their thinking for them.
Sorry; if that offends some but look at the threads relating to availability of skilled or willing workers.
Additionally, if you are in an area where most construction is 1-1/2 story; I think you loose a large part of the materials savings, but that is just my opinion.
Been there, done that - Tired of the subject.
Copy and paste Boss, copy and paste.
Here are a few copied and pasted links for ya:http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=47901.1http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=75503.1http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=38008.1http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=70166.1
Laugh and the world laughs with you.
Move, and you move alone.
That's what im talkn 'bout! Seriously, I know this has been covered in depth and am full agreement with you. I don't think it's as regional a thing here as it is an age/experience thing. Some of our guys could definately frame a roof faster stick framed than trussed, and not a simple gable; hips with bastard pitches, varying facias, etc. They were taught that way and saw no reason to change. I think many of them enjoyed figuring out complex roofs and welcomed the challenges.
I think you're going to have a tough time with this thread Gene. Trussed vs. Stick seems to be more of a regional thing than anything. "We just do what everyone else is doing in our area" is going to be a common theme for most of us here. The exception would be that rare bird (like yourself) who does it all by himself from design to pounding the nails and gets to hand pick most of what goes into the building.
Another problem is that most framers and builders tend to do mainly one or the other for the most part. So while I may be able to comment on some of the benefits of stick framing and Stilletto (for instance) may be able to comment on the same for trusses.... neither of us is really qualified to comment on the other side of the argument. That is going to make speed/labor/man power/scheduling type comparisons tough to come up with as most of us only hold truly proficient first-hand knowledge of one system or the other. I may be able to set trusses and Stilletto may be able to hand-cut a roof.... but that still doesn't qualify us as having enough of a history with the two systems to effectively compare/contrast with any validity.
In fact, I can't think of anybody, on this board or otherwise, who is truly proficient in framing with both systems. Not to say that that breed of framer doesn't exist, I just don't know of him.
My knowledge is very limited when it comes to framing but;
Trussed vs. Stick seems to be more of a regional thing than anything.
I think thats probably what I have seen.
When I lived in Iowa I worked for a high end builder and one of the framing crews that they used was a group of 4 or 5 guys that were no more then 24 years old, two brothers owned the company. Great group of kids, hard azzed workers.
Met them on a habitat job one Saturday and talked to them about how they got started, they told me that they worked for an old framer down in NOLA(before the hurricane) and that they stick built everything from top to bottom, or bottom to top, depending on how you start!
There opinion was that if you could do that (stick frame)then putting up trusses was a piece of cake. And trusses was all you seen in Iowa.
I think they said it was due to economics and tradition.
When I got down here I never seen a trussed house for 1 1/2 years, not saying they werent here but I never seen one.
Now in the town that I live in they opened up a truss plant and I see the trusses headed into Austin all day long but I dont see the houses that there going to. Stands to reason that they'd be going to track homes because of the repetitive nature of that business but I'm just guessing.
I'd imagine that you'll see a lot more trusses being used down here and maybe eventually thats all you'll see, I dont know, dont intend to stay and find out, but I think the transition will be slow.
I can only assume that from an economic stand point it must be cheaper to stick then to truss other wise why would they still do it. It cant be because it's a better built home, not sure thats a concern any more!
Capnmac may have a better perspective on this because I think he's more involved in that phase then I am.
Doug
Capnmac may have a better perspective on this because I think he's more involved in that phase then I am
Well, thank you for the vote of confidence, if nothing else.
It's my understanding that the subdivs up 35 heading over to Roundrock, and some (only some) of the sprouting-like-mushrooms subdivs on 290 towards Manor are getting trussed roofs. I'm not inside the vendor loop for the tract builders over there as much as I once was, so I don't get to hear the better scuttlebutt, or watch the McHouses sprout.
But, what I've heard from Travis & Williamson Cos. is tract=truss right now. May not be so, just what I heard. Given the funny sloped lots they are throwing slabs down on, I'm wondering how they get the framing to match the trusses (and don't want to think about the sorts of chainsaw shimming going on . . .)Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Well said man, I am sure there are some who do both with the speed to make money. I haven't met him yet either. I care, after all it's my company.
In fact, I can't think of anybody, on this board or otherwise, who is truly proficient in framing with both systems. Not to say that that breed of framer doesn't exist, I just don't know of him.
Dunno, maybe Blue comes as close as "we" are taling about, maybe?
Of course, I could also be thinking more of his pre-assembly framing practices, too.
If I had my mind right, I'd go back anddig into one of the old threads and see if my recollection matches the posts--'tain't happin' today, sad to say . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
CapnMac, I've stick framed enough roofs to know my way around them but I've never done them continously for any extended period. For the most part, we've been using trusses since the 70's but almost every trussed roof has some conventional in it. There is usually a substantial amount of stick framing on the big cutup customs.
We have a relatively small segment of a new house market (1/2 of a county) that still stick frames the roofs around here. The predominant feature of these homes is their relatively smaller size. Because of the limitations on room sizes of the stick framed houses, they all tend to be similar in each class. On the other hand, the larger homes of the big custom market tend to create much larger room sizes that wouldn't be possible or practical with trusses.
So, in the end, the argument isn't really whether one style is cheaper, but whether that style would serve the wants of the buying public. In our area, the builders have made fortunes building both type of homes and the cheaper, smaller stick framed units are moving better right now.
blue
I've stick framed enough roofs to know my way around them but I've never done them continously for any extended period. For the most part, we've been using trusses since the 70's but almost every trussed roof has some conventional in it. There is usually a substantial amount of stick framing on the big cutup customs.
So, in the end, the argument isn't really whether one style is cheaper, but whether that style would serve the wants of the buying public.
Thank you, that is precisely the sort of humble professionalism I thought might occur, and is precisely to the point.
Now, whether that answers the OP's premise, that I cannot naswer <g>Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Diesel,
I may be the guy. Started out with a boss who trussed everything. Doing custom homes, multifamily, and commercial structures. Heck, we had our own roof truss jig, and equipment in the shop. We also had a framing table, for panelizing walls. We pre built whole 4-plexes in the shop.
At the end of my time with that company, my job was the truss setup and fabricate guy, and the finish carpenter. Yeah, our trusses were pretty good. I personally cut every chord, and web. Don't miss that job !!
From there, I went to the best custom company, in the area. We did 99% stick frame, including hand nailing everything. No guns, not even for roof shingles. The boss was old school, and can stick frame anything, with only a framing square. Spent 13 Yrs. learning from him.
Now, on my own, as a GC, who does all his own carpentry. I've done both truss, and stick. I prefer to stick frame, mostly because no one else does it much any more.
Economically, I think in most cases, it's a wash. Alot is dependent on who's installing either system, and their efficiency. I see guys who only truss, fly through stuff. Also people are amazed at how quick we can stick and stack.
Personally, I think there may be some advantage to stick, in very cut up roofs, particularly hips, time & cost wise. Also, I believe you can't beat a truss roof for cost effectiveness, in a simple gable. Particularly, if the spans are long.
So my answer is, no answer.
Brudoggie
Been there, done that - Tired of the subject
Even though I feel I have enough experience with both kinds of roof construction to be well versed with raising either type of roof I can’t really debate in favor for one over the other in any generally substantial sense. Some home designs will work fine with either, some are designed specifically to be trussed and some are designed strictly for a cut roof. I have built plenty with hybrid roof designs too. I have also built many trusses on and off site. I have cut approximately 80% of roofs I have framed and built about 15% of the trusses I have set.
Trussed roofs work on the concepts of compression and tension. This will enable greater spans with less material. A cut roof also uses these same physical principals with rafters on compression and joists or rafter ties on tension, but the bracing of a stick roof is based more on compression that transfer loads to the foundation or structural components that transfer to the foundation. I have used some tension braces but as a general rule I don’t.
There is however one thing that I do have an opinion about. Having experience at both types of roof construction teaches you things that will benefit you about the opposite of either type of roof construction. Cutting roofs makes you better at trusses and rolling trusses will add to your cut and stack skills.
About the only thing that is more concern able to me about truss roofs is that getting the walls placed by plan dimension is more critical in most instances. But either way, being able to follow the plan (as opposed to moving walls to solve plumbing or foundation problems, etc.) is always best.
Edited 8/30/2006 5:53 pm ET by MrJalapeno