The other day I had to replace a switch in a box with three switches – one for a fan and the other two for 3-way lights. Plus box is used as junction for power to a few outlets. Took me three @#$%^ hours!!
First, I don’t do this for a living, so I’m not fast — I’ll admit it. I don’t know all of the little tricks. But why should there be little tricks for something so fundamental? We don’t need chauffeurs to drive our cars for us any more; why should we have to hire an electrician to do something so basic?
Second, some of the wiring was wrong. No proper diagram of course. So I had to diagnose things. (Having done so, I labeled many of the wires with my handy-dandy Brother P-Touch.)
Third, in addition to the faulty switch I needed to replace, I broke off a wire tail in another switch when I pushed the switches back in, and had to replace this switch too. Of course it was not initially obvious that this wire had broken off.
Fourth, I see red every time I look at the silly duplicate neutral and ground wires in 120V circuits. I am 100% convinced the only reason our codes require both is because the copper lobby has been so strong. With properly-designed plugs and sockets that could not be connected backwards (which we don’t have, of course), there would be no need for this foolishness! The upshot of it is 50% more wires to deal with than would be necessary for safety & functionality.
The worst part, however, is how utterly stupid it is to try to jamb all of this stuff — with all of these stiff wires — into little tiny boxes! Wires have to be cut off just so, with just the right length extending, so you can work on the switches & outlets yet fold the wires back in. I had to yank and pull a lot to get them manageable. Had to come up with a plan for packing them back into the box, and did a “dry run” or two. Even separated ground wires into two bunches (with connector between them of course) because when they were all connected together in one bunch, it would have taken a jack-hammer to force them in! This is brutal 100+ year-old technology, and we’re still using it!!
It is crazy to have the wires sticking out of the switches DIRECTLY at the back of the box, so they have to bend like pretzels! DUH! To be stripping and connecting wires one-at-a-time. To have these flimsy plastic boxes that wiggle and flex every time you plug and unplug something, whose cheesy threads strip out the first or second time you have to replace a switch or outlet. To have these stupid cover plates that attach at their absolute weakest point.
Having worked in industry quite a bit, I’ve seen how quickly machines, mobile equipment, controllers, circuit boards, and the like can be wired. Super-efficient connectors and wire geometries. High-speed cutters and strippers and crimpers. God bless mass termination!! A device with MANY more connections than a typical home can be wired in minutes. The contrast with residential wiring is like day & night. If NASA had used our residential wiring technology for the space program, we’d never have gotten off a pad, much less to the moon or Mars!
When will we get out of the stone age?
For the time being, I’m using masonry boxes and spec grade outlets & switches. More iron!! Yes!!
Replies
Was this your own house, or was this done on a job?
It sounds like the box is overloaded...did you count the conductors to confirm that?
Why didn't you replace the old box with a larger, deeper box?
My house; wiring recently installed by a contractor. Box installed under wood trim; quite difficult to replace.
So, let me try and sum your tirade up. You don't have the skills to do it, so it must be wrong huh. I mean your saying someone else wired the house and got everything in ok. And the rest of us use the same basic products. And with all the complaining you just did about the box size and the trouble and time spent to get it right seems like you could have easily changed the box out. Maybe in the future you need to hire it done and stick to...............painting or something. DanT
You guys are missing the point. IMO he's right about house wiring being cumbersome compared to HOW IT COULD BE.
Terminal strips and lock-in plugged-in component devices have been around for years in other than residential wiring. Sure they're spendy, but volume and some redesign could bring that around.
It's no wonder to me. after the feedback from this thread, that, in most jurisdictions, a residential wiring license won't qualify one to work in industry, marine, or heavy construction projects.Jules Quaver for President 2004
I didn't miss the point about how residential wiring "could be." I simply didnt comment on that part of his post.
What I did was read was how his wiring "actually is." It sounded like the box could be overloaded. I commented on that.
Sorry. I wasn't speaking to your post specifically. I do get annoyed, though, when some sparkies exude an attitude that their own little nest is sacred. Taking him at his word, that an "electrician" did his wiring, and left him with a mess, is something I've seen all too often.Jules Quaver for President 2004
Well actually he made a number of different points.
1. Crowded box - It sounds like the "conctractor" used too small a box. That is not the fault of the "wiring system". In fact he said that the wiring was wrong. That is not a fault of the system, but the "contractor" that installed it in the first place.
2. That a wire broke off when pushing the components. That was caused by poor workmanship either by Woody and/or the orginal installer complicated by the apparently overcrowded box. That is a problem with the "system".
3. Flimsy plastic boxes. There is nothing forcing him to use the flimsy plastic boxes. There are better ones. And even the flimsy ones, if properly installed are strong enough. Again this is not a problem with the system, but rather a poor selection of components for the application and/or poor workmanship.
4. That there should be easier terminations. That I agree with. However, if you spend $2 for a receptacle rather than 0.39 specials you can get backwired devices. They use the same clamping system used on industrial terminal strips. But I don't know of any switches with that feature.
But I am not sure what he really wants.
"But why should there be little tricks for something so fundamental? We don't need chauffeurs to drive our cars for us any more; why should we have to hire an electrician to do something so basic?"
"High-speed cutters and strippers and crimpers. God bless mass termination!!"
" A device with MANY more connections than a typical home can be wired in minutes. The contrast with residential wiring is like day & night. If NASA had used our residential wiring technology for the space program, we'd never have gotten off a pad, much less to the moon"
So he wants it so easy that it can be done anyone, but he wants to use specialized and expensive specialized tooling and he wants it to be space qualified. And while he did not specify it I am sure that he does not want to pay any more for this. It just does not compute.
How can he want a home owner to be able to do basic changes and repairs, but expect the use of a several hundred dollar tool.
Actually there is a "better" wiring system that is used in trailers. I have not seen them so I don't know the details, but they don't use a separate box, but there is some kind of cover or shell that goes over the back to cover the terminations. I "think" that they terminate by insulation displacement, but I am not sure. A friend of mine that has had to repair them say that they are a real PITA.
5. Neutrals and Grounding
"Fourth, I see red every time I look at the silly duplicate neutral and ground wires in 120V circuits. I am 100% convinced the only reason our codes require both is because the copper lobby has been so strong. With properly-designed plugs and sockets that could not be connected backwards (which we don't have, of course), there would be no need for this foolishness! The upshot of it is 50% more wires to deal with than would be necessary for safety & functionality."
Actuall recptacles are polarized, been that way since the 50's if not earlier. And where it is required polarized plugs are used.
But he really does not understand the purpose of the grounding system used in wiring. Polarized connectors will not protect against the faults that a safety ground wire will.
Dan,
I don't mean to hijack woody's thread,, well I guess I do. As I read the code I've got a problem.. I need to use armored cable to meet code, however I can't terminate the cable into a metal box..
The metal box would be in white oak timbers and as you may know white oak and metal do not work! the tannic acid in the white oak will attack attack the metal box, causing the box to corrode and the wood around the box to decay.
To solve that problem I used fiberglas boxes. That breaks the continuity requirement.. can I legally use wire to connect the outside of the armour cable from cable to cable? (each box is used in a series of daisy chains)
Frenchy,
I assume we are talking basic 120v circuits here. If so just use 12-2 w/ ground. The ground needs to be connected to the grounding screw as well as the ground going to the next box. I use the green wire nuts with the hole in the end for this. If using a metal box (which you said you were not) you just include a tail in the connection at the wire nut and fasten the other end to the back of the box. I use premade tails because I am lazy. Hope this helps. Why the shielded cable? DanT
I don't know Dan.........the insulated ground-wire in MC is isolated from the metal sheathing, so I think I would want to see the MC terminated to 1/2" KO's drilled in the fiberglass box with bonding bushings attached to pick up the sheathing.
This would also take care of Bx if that's what the French gentleman is using :)
Ed
Ed,
I see your point. That was why I asked the question of why the need for the shield. I guess I was looking at it from a purely residential standpoint and wasn't sure the reason for the shielding. In my mind the shield was protection only so need to bond it. But...........I could be wrong. Thanks for the idea. DanT
In this case you will also have to worry about the oak eating the BX in addition to the boxes.
You could use a simple barrier around the box. Two srips of tar paper, cut to the width of the box, crossing each other to cover the five exposed sides comes to mind. Use stainless screws for mounting. Alternatively a Bitumastic sheet, waterproofing sheets used for ice sheilds and exterior basement sealing, might be used to keep the box from contacting the wood.
The cabling could be done with weatherproof flexable conduit, resistant to corrosion, or perhaps weather resistant MC. Both have a plastic jacket outside the armor that would eliminate corrosion problems. You would need to use metal connectors either way.
If you wish to use non-metallic boxes you will likely need, IMHO, to use metal connectors on the ends of the runs and either grounding bushings or grounding lock nuts. These will have to be jumpered to any ground conductors, one end only to prevent circulating currents if a ground conductor is used in the runs, and/or to any other connectors and grounding devices.
the city code requires armoured cable if the breaker box is in the basement and the cables are exposed. (narrow reading of the protection requirement for romex) easier to conform than to resist.
I'm able to use aluminum rather than steel cable.. aluminum does not have the same reaction to the tannins in oak that steel does. I could not find aluminum boxes to terminate the cable with, hence the use of fiberglas boxes.
Your idea of using grounding lock nuts sounds like a easily workable solution, thanks..
Fourth, I see red every time I look at the silly duplicate neutral and ground wires in 120V circuits. ... With properly-designed plugs and sockets that could not be connected backwards (which we don't have, of course), there would be no need for this foolishness!
I'd suggest you learn some of the basics before doing any more wiring; you might kill someone with an attitude like that.
Maintaining polarity isn't all that tough, "black to brass, white to silver" is how I remember it.
I'm curious, do you complain about all of the stupid warnings we see on products these days: "Do not sit on barbecue grill when in use"?
Maybe the boxes Romex comes in should have a warning: "Please read more than the first page in your "Residential wiring for Dummies."
I broke off a wire tail in another switch when I pushed the switches back in
That's pretty tough to do. Do you have aluminum wiring by any chance? If so (or if you don't know) go back to my first comment.
I suppose I'm being a bit heavy handed here and perhaps overly sarcastic, but your comments indicate you don't know quite enough to be fooling around with residential wiring.
This is an area where what you don't know can very seriously hurt or kill you, or your family, or the next occupants.
I'm a little bit hipped on this because as a home inspector I see way too much amateur electrical work which presents serious threats to people.
_______________________
"I may have said the same thing before... But my explanation, I am sure, will always be different." Oscar Wilde
Edited 1/20/2003 9:59:33 AM ET by Bob Walker
Edited 1/20/2003 10:00:55 AM ET by Bob Walker
As an outsider ( ie not a electrican) looking in , he may be on to something. We may not be able to see the forest because the trees are in the way.
A close look at things from a new viewpoint can bring about amazing change.
I for one am pondering his comments, he might be on to something.
t
FYI I know about black to brass, white to silver. I have done wiring work that has been approved by a building inspector -- in fact, he thought my work was quite good. Wiring in this case is all copper.
I was referring to polarity of 120V plugs & sockets, not polarity of the Romex wires. In olden days with 2-prong plugs, both prongs were equal width so one could easily plug a device in two ways. Not good from a grounding standpoint.
More recently we have 3-prong plugs and outlets, with one of the flat sockets wider than the other, and with one of the prongs wider on many electrical devices that are not double-insulated. This new design ensures that devices will plug in safely (if the user does not modify them) but I still maintain that the ground wire (or white wire) is redundant. They both attach to the same place in the load center. In principle the redundancy adds safety, but as implemented, I think it does little other than to benefit the copper wire industry.
In contrast, consider 220V (single phase) wiring. No redundant ground. But other than for the higher voltage, is it any less safe? I think not. There are a number of plug & socket designs, but I believe all of them prohibit plugging in stuff in any way other than the RIGHT way. THAT is what makes it safe.
I think you missed my point about the wire tail breaking off inside the switch. Because of the stiffness of the wires, the relatively cramped nature of boxes, and especially the orientation of the wires when connected to switches and outlets (perpendicuar to the box), the wires must suffer significant flexing every time one changes a switch or outlet. A few times and the damn wire fatigues. Fatigue is a fundamental engineering phenomenon and the basic design -- one that requires sharp bends -- further exacerbates it.
If you are not familiar with it, I suggest you check out industrial controllers and their bus systems if you want to see how power wiring can be done efficiently.
Other than that, my sincere thanks to you for being an inspector -- I imagine it is a thankless job most of the time. You make the world safer.
Woody,
You have absolutely no comprehension of the purpose of a ground. It has a vital purpose, and has been discussed endlessly here. Trust me, it's essential for safety. The neutral is carrying current the ground is not.
Edited 1/20/2003 11:55:42 AM ET by markh128
"The neutral is carrying current the ground is not. " Please explain how this is relevant when both neutral and ground wires end up connected at the same place in the load center - i.e. the grounding bar? They are basically shorted together.
>>"The neutral is carrying current the ground is not. " Please explain how this is relevant when both neutral and ground wires end up connected at the same place in the load center - i.e. the grounding bar? They are basically shorted together.<<
You're partially correct, but only for a properly wired circuit.
Current flow through a restance (wire) generates a voltage. So there will be a difference in voltage where the neutral connects to a load, and at the ground termination in the panel. This voltage drop should be fairly small.
You do agree that all metal surfaces on a device should be grounded, correct? The ground is there to protect a person from coming in contact with line voltage in the event of a short to the frame, box, appliance, device whatever. Now if the neutral was used for this purpose, it may not be at ground potential, which might be a real problem. A more serious problem is when the neutral is connected as a ground, but somewhere the neutral is disconnected from the ground like at a bad connection. Then the neutral can be at line voltage.
There are several purpose of the grounding SYSTEM. But for this discussion we need to be concerned with only what is inside the house.
The concept is called bonding. The purpose is that all metal in the home be at the same potential level. That is no only the electrical equipment, but water pipes and furance ducting.
Now what happens if you don't a ground wire on a refigerator, but instead use the neutral and that neutral connection comes loose. The refigerator is now at 120 volts. Touch it and the sink and watch your eyes light up.
<<There are several purpose of the grounding SYSTEM. But... >>
Hi Bill - thanks for your thoughtful input. And thanks also to those among you who did more than dismiss me as an incompetent idiot. To the others who merely blew me off (Oh my! What does he know - he didn't use the proper noun!!), I observe that history has been filled with superstition and Luddites and people who clung to buggy-whip manufacturing.
But perhaps I have not made my case very well. Rather than complaining about what is WRONG, I will illustrate my points by describing an elegant solution.
First, run a single big frigging (SBF) ground wire from the service panel grounding bar to EVERY box. Within reason, boxes grounded in series would be OK.
EVERY box, including non-metallic ones, would have a metal "Box Grounding Bar" (BGB) in it. The SBF ground wire would attach to the BGB.
In the case of wiring that connects directly to a load (without any additional boxes in-between), the ground (and "neutral", if you insist on one) wire(s) would attach to the BGB.
Since switches and outlets need to be fastened to the boxes, one of the attaching screws would ALWAYS serve to connect them to ground via the BGB. EVERY switch, EVERY outlet, EVERY box, ALWAYS. It is a fundamental principle of good design to use one element (a screw in this case) for more than one purpose. More important, it is also more reliable -- less to mess up or forget.
(It is true that most new switches and outlets already have this feature, and that when they are properly installed with metallic boxes and conduit, their connection to ground is established this way. But, the implementation is poor -- counting on the edges of little screw threads to make a good connections! My main point is this, however: since code does not REQUIRE that the screws used to attach switches and outlets to boxes ALSO establish ground, most or all switches and outlets ALSO have a functionally redundant grounding screw.)
The components would be designed so that the screws used to fasten switches and outlets to the BGB would do a VERY reliable job of making the connection -- that is to say, as reliable as a wire twisted around a ground screw. Best = squeezing flat surfaces together.
In effect, you have "extended" the grounding bar from the service panel to EVERY box. All you need to do is connect "hot" wires and you're done.
No need for the "neutral" wires of the present system. Number of wires reduced by 33% or more. Number of connections reduced by 67% or more. Damn few wire nuts. No ground wires to nut together. No neutral wires to nut together. No stiff bundles of ground or neutral wires to stuff into the box. No flexing (read, "fatiguing") of ground and neutral wires when you replace a switch or outlet.
Consider this from a maintenance and repair standpoint. When replacing switches or outlets, the only wires to disconnect and reconnect would be hot wires. In many cases (outlet not in series, simple light switch), there would be only ONE wire to disconnect/reconnect. ONLY ONE!!! Even a novice could hardly avoid establishing a proper ground -- it would happen automatically when they screwed the device back into the box. And don't forget the fatigue issue -- the ground wires would not be not TOUCHED during repair/replacement. Can anyone in their right mind assert this would be LESS safe?
Will this ever happen it this world of ours -- a world with at least three widespread and incompatible thread standards? With countries forever stuck with the Imperial system of measurement (pounds, inches, feet,etc)?? A world with hundreds of auto and truck oil filter styles and dozens of spark plug styles? With perhaps hundreds of faucet valve and seat designs? In a country that cannot agree to standardized academic tests for elementary and high school students ? Well, I can dream...
OK folks, hurl your spears and arrows!! I am safe behind my impenetrable shield of Logic!!
I like the idea of the having a ground buss bar in the boxes.
As far as using the screw on the device to form a good ground that is already available, again on the better devices, the is a bronze finger on the back of the yoke next to the screw hole. I don't remember that part of the code so I don't know if it allows the box to be grounded via the device or for the device to be grounded by the box.
But you idea of the BFG still has serious problems. The first being that if you allow it to be run from box to box and not with the hot branch circuits and it is also the neutral then it has to be able to carry the full load of the pannel. That gets it up to 2/0. That is a very, very, very BFG.
But the basic fault is that is depending on a single conductor/connection. If you lose it due to corrosion, a nick from bad workmanship, or someone running a nail through it then you have lost your ground/neutral then anything metal that is connected to that circuit (stoves, refigerator, table saw) is now hot.
Even connections at the meter and pannel have problems from time to time losing a neutral or hot connection.
Personally what I would like to see is #12 and 10 Romex with stranded wire.
While there might be some desire to come up with an improved system remember that probably once installed 95% of the devices or wiring is not changed for 50 years. So you can't really spend any more money on this comming up with things that are easier to install and replace.
I'll poke a stick in this thread and stir a little more on the discussions of grounds.
please read the entire post before flaming - Grounding the neutral and all metal in the house is DANGEROUS!!! (by technology available today - 30 years ago probably a must, a remnant of old technology of pieces of solder in boxes as fuses)
IMnsHO the next 10 years will bring a NEC requirement for arc fault breakers wherever the mfg and insurance agents can force the issue. After market saturation with those, the NEXT item (say circa 2020) will be to eliminate the ground wire in houses . What will bring this about is the ease with which even a high impedance 'fault' of either supply or return conductor can be detected. An UNGROUNDED system is inherently SAFER ____ when the contact of either condutor to anything else other than the intended load can be detected. Nuclear power plants have had ungrounded systems for decades for reliability and safety, the cost of detecting any high impedance short prevented that technology from residential and commercial use. Today's technology can do it (if on a large scale) for less than the cost of the copper in the ground wire. The trick is to not have to rely on a short to ground to prevent a wire from overloading - which means using one of the methods of opening the circuit breaker without relying on overcurrent faults to ground.
As an example of the safety issue, a case history of an electrocution was when the ground of a wall AirConditioner (AC) had been removed, plus an internal fault in the AC. Normally, human body resistance with dry uncut skin is high enough that 120 or even 240 is not fatal (heck, I still test 120 with my fingers; however, the lowest documented fatality was from 18 Vac). In the AC case, the internal short failure was of the junction of the run capacitor for the 120 V motor to the case. The classical LC voltage amplification thus put the AC case at about 300+V, and an electrocution resulted when the tennant touched the case while in contact with a structural ground. If neither wire of the 120 V circuit had been connected to ground, there would have been no electrocution.
Great. Design it, develope it, get it accepted by the NEC, market it and then once its competatively priced I'll used it. Until then it is a moot point and I will use the given system. I'm not an inventor, just a repairman/installer. You so far..........are neither. DanT
[The ground and neutral] They are basically shorted together.
No, becasue they don't have potential.
_______________________
"I may have said the same thing before... But my explanation, I am sure, will always be different." Oscar Wilde
"In contrast, consider 220V (single phase) wiring. No redundant ground. But other than for the higher voltage, is it any less safe? I think not. There are a number of plug & socket designs, but I believe all of them prohibit plugging in stuff in any way other than the RIGHT way. THAT is what makes it safe."
240v circuits to have a GROUND. They do not have a neutral. There is no need for a neutral as there is no 120 volt loads. The ground wire, weither for a 120 ro 240 volt circuit are used for fault currents only.
If you are talking about 120/240 circuit such as driers and stoves then in the past they did allow, in some circumstances, the neutral to be used as equipment ground. But that "loop hole" has been eliminated and those circuit now require a separate equipment ground
As a lowly DIY I must throw my hat in this discussion and say that wiring an outlet by the pushin feature on the back of the receptacle is worse than putting kitchen cabinets up with drywall screws.Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.
The other...proper application of risk.
Thanks rez, now I don't have to say it ;)
No it isn't - The drywall screws are worse. The liberals have brainwshed you into thinking otherwise...............I might be driving slowly, but I'm still in front of you.
Hey Boss,
Sounds like you like liberals just as much as me! ;)
It's like pokin' a stick in a beehive - Sometimes you just gotta stir things up a little.....................(-:Visualize whirled peas.
Ah.... one of those pot-stirrers, eh? I've been known to do that on occasion, as well. ;)
No it isn't - The drywall screws are worse. The liberals have brainwshed you into thinking otherwise...............
ROFLMAO!
(Less filling!)_______________________
"I may have said the same thing before... But my explanation, I am sure, will always be different." Oscar Wilde
No it isn't - The drywall screws are worse. The liberals have brainwshed you into thinking otherwise...............
when I am using push-in outlets I like to run a drywall screw in with the wire - makes for a better connection, plus I have something to do with the screws left over from installing cabinets
Reminds me of a job I saw. Someone had run romex, NM, around the side of a house, under the eaves, to feed a flood light. They fastened the flat cable, neatly bent to match the contours of the wood and painted to match, in place by driving brads through the middle of the cable every few inches.
While the ground wire, which runs up the middle, was damaged by this the hot and neutral, which run up each side, were untouched and in good condition. The circuit had been working for years and had only become an issue when an alert house inspector had spotted it.
Some times I am amazed at how few houses with such bold and innovative wiring methods actually burn down. Is this proof of the existence of a higher power? Or just a universally quirky sense of humor?
My friend, ironically a high-end commercial electrical engineer, bought a house which had that exact type of wiring for a floodlight off the back corner. In his case I believe they used roofing nails, but they were all driven into the center of the romex. While we can guess the hot was OK, wouldn't the circuit operate normally even if the insulation on the neutral was punctured and in contact with the ground, assuming a non-GFI circuit.
FWIW, the house was in the northern Baltimore suburbs. Same place?
We still laugh about it.
I had to repair a bathroom GFI in my house where the previous owner had connected the 3 ground wires with a crimp, and the end of each wire was cut at a nice sharp 30 degree angle. One of them very easily penetrated the hot wire one day after I'd plugged in a hair dryer. It truly is a miracle that more places don't burn down. I didn't sleep well until I had physically inspected every single fixture in the house.
Boss Hog, I'm a conservative kind of guy but just to stir the pot a little more, what did we do before we had dry wall screws?
Also the ground wire on 110v circuits is supposed to insure a continuous loop from the various switches and outlets back to the service box. 220v circuits normally have only one outlet ,no branches per circuit so the extra ground is not needed to insure a good ground.
DW was getting shocked from light switch in bathroom. She hadn't let go of the water faucet when she hit the switch and was serving as ground. Found out electricans didn't connect ground to switch. Of a total of 19 switches on 1st floor only 2 had ground wire connected. Work was done by licensed electricians but obviously not very good ones or ones that didn't think ground wires were important. Which begs the next question, why didn't the inspector catch it ? There's good and not so good as you'll find in any profession and with DIYers.
With the issue of wires breaking off, this most times results from the wire being "nicked" when the insulation was stripped off. Other than that the wires will survive a lot of bending and reforming without breaking.
Harry's Homeworks
Rhode Island
My post was a joke - Just poking fun at rez.
Guess I should have used a smiley face...............(-:Men are Like placemats.They only show up when there's food on the table.
>What did we do...?
We whipped the women.Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.
The other...proper application of risk.
I still do that.Harry's Homeworks
Rhode Island
"Also the ground wire on 110v circuits is supposed to insure a continuous loop from the various switches and outlets back to the service box. 220v circuits normally have only one outlet ,no branches per circuit so the extra ground is not needed to insure a good ground."
It is not an EXTRA ground. It is THE ground.
In 3 wire systems where the the neutral is used without a spearate ground and you have an corrosion or other problems with the neutral the case is not HOT.
One of the purposes of the ground systems is to make sure that all metal in the building is at the same potential.
YOU JUST CAN'T DO THAT IF YOU HAVE CURRENT FLOWING THROUGH THE WIRE. That is way it is even more critical where the breaker pannel is not the entrance point. You have this with sub-pannelsl, areas where they have a main disconnect outside, but the pannel inside and mobile homes.
This is not a direct reply to you, Bill. It's just a general statement...
The bare copper wire in house wiring is a redundant ground, PERIOD!!!!!
It is there for safety, PERIOD!!!!! Is there something wrong with safety? Both wires are at exactly the same VOLTAGE POTENTIAL. You can eliminate the bare copper wire completey and splice the metal boxes/fixtures to the "neutral" wire and accomplish the same thing (minus the safety of a backup ground/neutral).
This is not a complicated issue. I am sometimes amazed how little some of my electrician buddies actually know about electricity. I'm not talking about installation techniques or code; they are very good at what they do. I'm talking about BASIC electricity theory. The kind of basic theory that is taught the first 9 weeks of college.
The wires are not at the same potential. Ever hear of ohms law? E=IR. The voltage should be very small, but it is not the same when current is flowing. Also the neutral is not always neutral, sometimes it has an opposing opinion.
The correct formula is E=IZ. And yes, the voltage potential for two wires that have been shorted together is exactly 0. I'm on my way out the door so I'm not able to explain how this works...
Actually, the voltage potential of two wires shorted together is zero IF THEY ARE THE SAME MATERIAL. If they are dissimilar, there is a difference; this is how a thermocouple works. If you take two wires of different materials, then solder them together, you can read a voltage between the two, depending on the temperature of the connection.
Bill, woops, I said it wrong. Should have read extra wire not extra ground.Harry's Homeworks
Rhode Island
Bill and ALL,
I'm a contractor with an engineering education and background, and think I understand simple wiring quite well. And I do, in fact, understand the purpose of the redundant ground, so there is no argument there. However, I do share one of Woody's questions when it comes to 220V appliances. That is, why do they NOT require a separate, independent ground like all 110V appliances do? For example, when I recently re-connected my 220V electric stove, there was NO ground. Just two hots and a neutral.
If you know why, could you please explain to me why this is so? It seems inconsistent.
Thanks,
Ragnar
(Just two hots and a neutral)
to get 220 or 240 all you need is two hots. the neutral is use as a ground.
As it was explained to me the AC switches polarity the power flows back and forth on the two hots giving you 240v the third wires is use as ground if you get short. NOT sure I belive it but seem to be the case.
No he is talking about stove or drier. They are 240/120 volt appliances.
Current code requires both a neutral for the 120 volt loads and a separate ground for safety.
Now something like an airconditions has only 240 loads and does not need a neutral.
"That is, why do they NOT require a separate, independent ground like all 110V appliances do? For example, when I recently re-connected my 220V electric stove, there was NO ground. Just two hots and a neutral."
They do require a separate ground and are designed for that. If you look at the connections on the back and the label there is an option to separate the neutral and the ground so that a 4 wire connection can be made. Since 1996 it is required to use a 4 wire connection for ALL NEW BRANCH CIRCUITS, but there is an expection to all still connecting up appliances to existing circuits.
The real question is why it has been this long to update this area.
I don't have any older code books, but I believe that the 3 wire circuits where never allowed in trailers. Trailers have the main disconnect outside and a sub-pannel in the trailer. Also many locals outlawed it years ago.
You have old wiring. New Code says separate grounded (neutral) and equipment grounding conductors. I won't explain further because it's late.
check the "new" code. Requires the 4 prong plug and rec. for direct ground. Every time I try to install this they ask WHY. Kinda like the upside down rec's. If You don't get it, don't touch it.
ragnar,
you see a white wire and think it is a "neutral" but it is most likely not being used as one.
Yes, it does go back to the panel and they all get connected together there, but it is not being used as a neutral because if it is then you only get 120volts.
a 220V fixture uses the two hots to get the 220V potential difference.
a 120V fixture uses one of those hots and the neutral side of the transformer to get the 120V potential difference.
Now, if your stove has a clock, or lights, then it has 220V AND 120V available inside it and then your appliance is using both hots and the neutral (but using each for different purposes). In that case, from your description, your stove is not grounded.
AMEN, BROTHER, AMEN!
I hate it when things are done inefficiently just "because that's how we've always done it." (OK, I'm not sure that ground wires are a vast conspiracy of the copper cartel, but I get your point on the other stuff.)
I currently have three inventions/patents in various stages of development- all in fields that I have relatively little experience in. When showing and discussing these ideas- doing my homework- with vastly more experienced friends they always ask, "Holy s**t, how did YOU ever come up with this?" Because I haven't spent twenty or thirty years in the trade developing a bad case of tunnel vision doing things "how we've always done it," that's how!
m
Good to read a positive posting on this topic, thanks! You are right about tradition and immersion -- it is very difficult for people deeply immersed in fixed procedures and methods to look at them in a fresh way.
Overall I was disappointed by many of the postings to my topic -- they seemed rather close-minded. As I wrote some time ago in this string, electricity doesn't give a rat's #### about our safety intentions, but none of the nay-sayers convinced me that ground and neutral wires in our 120 circuits are truly needed for safety. Anecdotes about shock may establish that one can be shocked with older equipment, but this does not prove that my proposed solution would not prevent them.
Meanwhile the design and implementation of current wiring materials and devices -- especially the solid wires, tight bends, and resultant high forces and stresses needed to pack stuff in a box -- clearly does much to REDUCE safety.
Oh well, maybe in the next civilization...
Good luck on your inventions!
Meanwhile the design and implementation of current wiring materials and devices -- especially the solid wires, tight bends, and resultant high forces and stresses needed to pack stuff in a box -- clearly does much to REDUCE safety.
As for the solid wires, have you ever heard of stranded?
As for packing stuff into the box, the technique I use is to pack it carefully in a planned way like a suitcase. In other words, first in [the back] go the thru connections. Then the ground with just the pigtail sticking out. Then the neutral and hot. You just have three single wires sticking out about 5" after this.
Then you bend [pre-fold] the wires in a "Z" shape and in the appropriate positions in the box with just about 1" sticking straight out. Then you pull them out and attach your receptacle or whatever. Then you can shove the thing back into the box since the wires are pre-bent. [I think Cliff Popejoy mentioned this in the last issue of FHB.]
A 1 cent 12" strip of black phase tape wrapped around the receptacle sides [screw side] will prevent some safety problems.
As for the grounding issue, there is a method using an isolation transformer. The Europeans might not use a ground with their 220 volt systems but then they also use screwy colour schemes.
But for most purposes, the utility grounds their transformer's neutral at the pole and everything is tied together. Part of this is for lightning protection. Another reason is to bond all the metal in the building so it is at the same potential. This eliminates voltage gradients. Anyway, earth is a poor conductor but it does conduct. Thus if you touch a hot wire and are touching ground, you will get a couple dozen mulliamps flowing thru your heart and 5~10 can kill you. But this is not enough to trip a 15 amp breaker. But it is enough to trip a GFCI.
I hope I've got all these theories right but, in any case, install the ground wire. As today's NY Times Crossword Puzzle says ITS the law.
As for the Arc Fault Interupters, the code requires them for 125 volt outlets. So just use a 120 volt system. So there! Also some juridictions are smart enough not to buy into that boondoggle. Also they may be several editions behind on the current Code.
-Peter
I've read all of this, most of it earlier.
While I understand your frustration with the current system, and we can certainly look at better ways of doing things. You show a shocking lack of understanding of how electricty works. Example:
>>No need for the "neutral" wires of the present system. Number of wires reduced by 33% or more. Number of connections reduced by 67% or more.
There is a need for a 3-wire system. Period. Could we do it better then it's done now? Sure. Build a box where you connect the wires to a buss bar in the back and simply plug the outlets and switches you need into it. Not too hard to design or build. Costs much more then what we have now for parts, but it's easily doable. But I doubt it'd be as flexible as current systems are. Having to have the box adaptable for outlets, 3 way, 4 way, combined switches, pass through circuits, ect. Sure, what we do now isn't the best possible system. But, for the money spent on parts, it's a good system. And it's much better then older systems. I'm sure it's not the final system, there will be improvements.
But, as someone who got a terrible shock from touching a refrigerator where some idiot had broken the grounding plug off, I'll tell you the 3rd wire isn't there for looks, or to use more copper, or to make inspectors happy. It's there to protect people when things go wrong. In this case a wire that'd worn through and was touching the case. Damn dangerous with at 2 wire system. Instant safety when the breaker trips in a 3 wire system. With current technology, the seperate ground wire is very important.
I challenge you to design a simpler faster system. Just keep all three wires in it. Oh, and preferably do it so I can buy an outlet box for $0.18 and an outlet for $0.39 and cable for 8-10 cents/ ft. for cable that handles 20 amps and is easy to work with.
Or, just use the current system as is until someone invents a better one. It'll happen eventually.
But, as you just stated, "none of the nay-sayers convinced me that ground and neutral wires in our 120 circuits are truly needed for safety." Despite some incredible attempts by people much more knowledgeable them me. I assume you'll put me among the other close-minded people who've responded to you. I just hope you never wire anything the way you talk. You're liable to hurt someone.
Very well said.
Bob
Doing electrical work can drive a person crazy if you don't know what you are doing, or just neurotic if you do. I replaced the service in my house, it had one of those 100 amp lunch box size breaker boxes that was overloaded with half size breakers and the dryer was connected direct via 2 10 ga. solid copper wires, no breaker!!! I put in a 200 amp service with 40 breaker slots and corrected the dryer issue. The power co. came to disconnect the power at the pole, he said he was going to just coil the wire at the pole and re-connect it later. I told him it was not big enough, he said are you putting in electric heat? I said no, he said the smaller wire would be fine. Luckily, I did not have it re-connected until the second shift came on. The guy looked at the wire coming out of the masthead and said, get me the the 4-0, the wire that's on the pole is not big enough. I told him the day shift guy was going to use the smaller wire, he just shook his head.
Woody,
I agree with you that there is room for improvement in the field of residential wiring.
However, regarding the redundant ground, it does serve a purpose from time to time. For example, in my house, one of the hot (black) wires came loose in a junction box for a ceiling fixture, and the wire came into contact with the metal junction box. I don't know exactly how this wire came loose, but 95% of it was probably due to the fact that the person who did the wiring in the first place was an idiot (judging by the general quality of the work). Anyway, there was a spark, and I shut off the circuit and investigated and found the loose wire. The point is that without the redundant ground, the junction box and all the metal pieces on the ceiling fixture would have been hot, and somebody who touched it (like my wife, or somebody who doesn't know anything about wiring) could have been shocked. So in this case, at least, it served a purpose.
Back when I was a kid, there was a particular light fixture in a barn which would shock you about 20% of the time when you reached up to pull the chain. Back then, I didn't know anything about wiring, so I didn't know how to fix it. Today, I figure that the problem was the same: a loose hot wire resulting in a hot fixture.
The worst electrical shock I've got so far in my life was when I was in college. We had this old crappy washing machine, and there must have been a loose wire inside, because you could get shocked sometimes when you touched the metal body of the washer. My roommate was in the habit of shutting off the supply hoses whenever he finished using the washer. So one day, while leaning on the washer, I reach back and open up the damn valve and WHAM get shocked like hell! I sure turned the air blue after that for a good 15 minutes! I guess what happened was that the washing machine was hot, and when I touched the cold water pipe (which is nicely grounded), all the electricity flowed through me. I'm probably lucky I wasn't electricuted or something. In this case, it was a 2-wire system without the redundant ground. Once again, I think that had the redundant ground been installed, this wouldn't have happened.
Admittedly, too, we probably should have called a repairman to fix the damn thing, but you know how it is when you're a kid in college and need whatever money you have for beer. ;) But sometimes wires come loose, and other stupid things happen before you have a chance to respond to them responsibly, and of course there are a lot of people who just don't understand the system and are at risk when something goes wrong. The redundant ground, in my opinion, is worth the extra copper wire and time it takes to install it.
Regards,
Ragnar
PS: After you do enough of it, the wiring will get easier. But I understand the need to vent from time to time, and do so myself on occasion. So carry on. ;)
Thanks for your detailed reply instead of calling me an idiot as many posters have done.
Regarding the cases you mentioned, I submit the problem was due to the fact that there was NO ground. One would have been enough. As I pointed out in the previous message, current practise for 120V is to connect the ground and the neutral wires to the exact same place in the load center.
> current practise for 120V is to connect the ground and the neutral wires to the exact same place in the load center.
A little experiment: Get a toaster or space heater or some such thing that pulls a bunch of current, say 1500 watts or more, and a volt meter. Take the stuff to a properly installed outlet fairly far from the breaker panel, plug in the load and turn it on. Measure with the volt meter between the neutral and ground in the other receptacle of the duplex. You'll find some voltage, maybe a quarter of a volt, maybe up to a couple volts. This is from Ohm's law acting on the resistance in the neutral back to the box and the current flowing through it.
I'll agree that the romex and plastic box way of doing things is kinda marginal and kludgey. It evolved as a way of doing it cheaper. My way is to use metal boxes, EMT, and compression fittings, which is sorta like what we evolved away from to get to the current mess. Also, why not pay a little more for the convenience of those nice big 4 11/16" boxes?
-- J.S.
Hi John
I admit the voltage difference in this case. But what is your point? If you connected the ground wire to the receptacle instead of the neutral, now the "ground" would register a little bit hotter than the neutral. So what? Both wires DO end up at the same place in the load center.
Seems to me that many posters to this discussion have elaborated on what the redundancy is SUPPOSED to accomplish, but physical laws don't give a rip about our intentions.
As for big metal boxes and EMT where possible, AMEN! You're preaching to the choir!
"Seems to me that many posters to this discussion have elaborated on what the redundancy is SUPPOSED to accomplish, but physical laws don't give a rip about our intentions."
It's so obvious, I can't help but wonder what you guys are arguing. If "neutral" and "ground" were the same wire throughout the branch circuits, all bonded metal would be carrying current. Would you really want your refrigerator case or your sheet-metal air-conditioner case to be carrying the neutral current? What about something piped into the water supply, like a boiler or insta-hot water heater? Then the water pipes would be part of the circuit.
Bad news.
Ed
Let me take a shot at explaining the difference between the neutral and the grounding conductor using a plumbing analogy.
The hot wire is the source of electrons at high voltage or energy. Think of it as the water supply pipe--the water is under pressure (and similarly, the electrons are subject to voltage).
Imagine that you have the supply pipe connected to a little turbine. When the supply valve is opened, the water flows and spins the turbine. You could say that there is current (the flow of water) present. The water under pressure transfers most of it's energy to the turbine, so the turbine shaft spins and you can get some work out of that mechanical energy. This corresponds to an electrical motor--the electrical energy is transformed to mechanical energy. When the switch is turned on, the voltage (pressure) causes electrons to flow, resulting in an electrical current.
Both the water and the electrons have to go somewhere once they've dropped their energy off at the load (whether it's a motor or lightbulb, or heating element). In both the hydraulic and electrical cases there is a return path.
For the water turbine, it's the drain pipe. For a 120V electrical motor, the return conductor is commonly called the "neutral". Actually, that's not the correct term; the return is a conductor that is grounded at the source or supply (the service panel). So the neutral is a current-carrying conductor, correctly called the "grounded" conductor. And FYI, the hot wire is called the "ungrounded" conductor.
Now, what we all call the "ground wire" (the bare copper or green insulated wire) is connected to the ground/neutral terminal bar in the service panel, just like the neutral is. But, and this is a big but, the ground wire does not carry current unless something has gone wrong. The ground wire is a grounded conductor but it isn't "the grounded conductor". The ground wire comes into play when a hot wire accidentally comes in contact with the metal case of a tool or the metal housing of a light fixture. In electrical-speak, when there's a fault.
The ground wire is (or should be) solidly attached to any exposed (i.e., "touchable") metal parts of any electrical equipment. In fact, the correct term for the ground wire is the "equipment grounding conductor". Let's say you drop that old metal case 3/8" drill, and a hot wire inside moves and touches the case. The case is now at 120V. Touch it and you're dead (I'm assuming there's no GFI in the circuit).
But, if the drill is "grounded", that is it has an equipment grounding conductor (three-prong plug), what we have is a short circuit. The equipment grounding conductor (hey, I'm just going to shorten that to "grounding conductor") provides a direct path for the current to get back to the service panel. With this solid short circuit, a lot of current flows and the breaker trips almost instantaneously. You are spared a shock or electrocution.
The plumbing analogy for this is an overflow drain. If the supply pipe springs a leak, picture a catch pan and an independent drain pipe back to the supply tank. You don't want to put the overflow drain on the same pipe as the return line--you'd have water from the return line flowing into the catch pan. Same idea with the electrical system. You can't expect the return conductor (the grounded conductor, right?) to also serve as the overflow. If there was the slightest restriction in the return, the water would back up and flood the overflow pan.
In our electrical case, the return conductor is carrying just as much current as the supply conductor (it's the energy that the load uses, not the electrons). So if you connect the grounding terminal of an outlet to the neutral of the outlet, you've just created the situation where the metal case of the tool or fixture is energized whenever the power is on. If there's the slightest electrical resistance in the neutral, the voltage of the tool case will increase, possibly to a dangerous level. This happens. The supply and return wires are not perfectly balanced in terms of impedance (resistance).
The point is that although the neutral and the ground (uh, the grounded conductor and the grounding conductor) do both wind up at the same place, they serve very different purposes. It is wrong--and very dangerous--to connect them at any other point than the service panel.
That's right--they have to be kept separate in subpanels. I talk about this in an article and WTD column that're scheduled for the April issue. I just couldn't let this serious misconception go without comment!
So, don't "bootleg" a ground off of a neutral!
Cliff
Cliff,
Thanks! - good explanation (assuming that my own understanding is accurate, of course{G})
If I may - this is the part that really needs to be understood by folks:
But, if the drill is "grounded", that is it has an equipment grounding conductor (three-prong plug), what we have is a short circuit. The equipment grounding conductor (hey, I'm just going to shorten that to "grounding conductor") provides a direct path for the current to get back to the service panel. With this solid short circuit, a lot of current flows and the breaker trips almost instantaneously. You are spared a shock or electrocution._______________________
"I may have said the same thing before... But my explanation, I am sure, will always be different." Oscar Wilde
Cliff,
Great explanation! Could you continue the plumbing analogy for 220v?
Kevin,
Thanks. Glad it helped.
As far as the 240V circuit and a plumbing analogy goes--the comparison breaks down, because the return pipe in our plumbing system is at zero (ambient) pressure.
But, think about a hydraulic system, like the ram on a back hoe. There is a supply line and a return line. The hydraulic lines are both at a higher pressure than ambient (I dunno how much above atmospheric pressure the return line is, but for sake of illustration, imagine that the whole system is pressurized). There's a pressure differential between the supply and return, and the return line is at some pressure above ambient. I like this analogy because even though it's not perfect, you can see how reversing the flow of energy reverses the direction of the ram. Like reversing the direction of rotation of a motor. Another analogy that just occurred to me is a steam turbine. The steam at very high pressure is fed to the turbine and then the steam at lower (but certainly not zero) pressure returns to the steam generator.
Neither analogy explains how 240/120 supplies work. We can center-tap the low-voltage or secondary winding of the supply transformer to get the standard N. American 240/120V system that supplies our houses. Here the 240 comes off the ends of the secondary winding, and the center tap is grounded at the transformer pole or pad to give 120V from either hot leg (or pole) to that grounded conductor. (The best way I know of to visualize this is that sine waves of the 240 legs are in phase but of opposite polarity.) That's why it's single phase power--the two sine waves cross zero at the same time, but one is on the way up and one is on the way down. The difference from peak of one to trough of the other is 240V as commonly measured--but let's not get into the issue of RMS vs other voltage measurements. The way to describe it (our 240/120 set up) is "single phase, three wire".
Work safe,
Cliff
Thanks,
I also could not figure out a plumbing analogy. But I remember the sine wave of current and the two legs canceling each other out in the neutral wire. Kevin
They both attach to the same place in the load center. In principle the redundancy adds safety, but as implemented, I think it does little other than to benefit the copper wire industry.
QUOTE "Code Check Electrical"
From the transformer to the house, the "bare" wire is the Grounded Conductor. It is live and is designed to carry current all of the time.
Once the Grounded Conductor comes into the building a second set of conductors is attached to it. These conductors are the Equipment Grounding Conductors [what you are calling the redundant grounds.] Unlike the Grounded Conductor, the Equipment Grounding Conductors live a very inactive life. They are part of a safety backup system. that is designed to protect life and property from accidental equipment faults.
[Illustration where there is a fault in the hot side, energizing the casing of a motor]
In fig ... the motor has a deadly potential to ground (the earth.) The current is looking to return to its source at the transformer. A human being in contact with with a grounded surface i.e., plumbing, earth, etc., could provide the return path.
The Equipment Grounding system maintains equipment at earth potential. The equipment grounding system is an alternative path for faulting currents.
...
Grounding also protects people against a low-level fault current.
ENDQUOTE
In contrast, consider 220V (single phase) wiring. No redundant ground.
220 circuits are no longer wired that way (with a few exceptions) They now have both a neutral and a ground (starting with the 990 NEC, I think.)
For many purposed, we can look at wiring as carrying electrical current to and back from fixtures.
That is not an accurate view, however.
It is more proper to think of wiring as carrying potential to the ground.
That's why a tick tracer will beep on a hot wire but not on a neutral.
And that's why the equipment grounding circuit is not redundant.
******
If you are not familiar with it, I suggest you check out industrial controllers and their bus systems if you want to see how power wiring can be done efficiently.
I've taken a few course in industrial wiring; just enough to know to saty way far away from it!
Other than that, my sincere thanks to you for being an inspector -- I imagine it is a thankless job most of the time. You make the world safer.
Thanks - I'm a private inspector working mainly for home buyers, though. Best, most rewarding job I've ever had!
_______________________
"I may have said the same thing before... But my explanation, I am sure, will always be different." Oscar Wilde
Edited 1/20/2003 7:41:59 PM ET by Bob Walker
A couple of tips:
1. Sounds like you need a box extension. they make matters a bit more comfortable to work on.
2. Mutiple Gang Switch Boxs are a convenience and a pain. Lotsa wires in small places. Spread out the switch boxes is one answer.
3. When I deal with Gang Boxes I often switch to 14 ga wire for these lighting circuits.
4. When dealing with Gang Boxes, I'll receive and send all the wires to another box, which I designate as a switch box, and there the actuall connections between switch and lighting appliance are made. This reduces the number of wires in the Gang Box. Try to plan which wires go where in the box, as there is little reason to have a set of wires come in one end of the Gang Box and be used by a switch at the other end. All that does is clog the box. Plan ahead.
5. No Duplicate Neutrals or Hots. I'll have a single neutral and a single ground wire and a single hot in the wire mass from the switch box, and retape the other neutrals and hots (or use other colored wire if in conduit)for switched hots. Supply hots are always black. Switched hots are always red, orange, blue, yellow etc. So for each Gang Box there is only one supply hot, one supply neutral and one supply ground. The rest are switched hots which go back to a switch box.
6. Pig Tails. Each switch has a small pig tail for neutrals and grounds. It too, reduces wire mass.
7. Use Conduit. Conduit has less mass too, less paper, less rubber romex cables etc.
8. Get a good set of Needle nose pliers, and a wire bending/cutting/stripping tool. This is not a tool to scrimp on, and I have several favorites. I watch this tool like a hawk, as on job sites these wonderful tools get stolen a lot.
9. It is sometimes easier to disconnect all the switches in a Gang Box from the Box all at once, and bend them all down en mass. Easier to work on, without putting stress on the other wires.
10. Secure all connections with the side screws and bend the wire clockwise with your Needle nose pliers. If tightened nice and tight, these connections can take a lot of abuse before breaking. I tape the sides of the switches with two layers of black tape. It aint Code here, but it was the way I was taught, and prevents shocks if the side of the switch makes contact with the box. It too helps secure the connection.
11. Lable switches and wires, both in the Gang Box and up at switch box. I'll often have a Code or Schematic pasted inside, like "orange/lr ceiling" for orange is living room ceiling.
These are my hints for avoiding wire mass in Gang Boxes. I won't comment on the ground neutral issue, Woody, as others have given you a well deserved spanking on that. If you do not understand, appreciate, and follow the rules on grounds and neutrals, you really shouldn't be working on electricity. By the way, I am not cheap. You'll find lotsa of other guys that will work faster and cheaper. But I am very carefull, anal, and good.
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1927
For what it's worth.....
I read your whole post...and thought someone was posting a prank post about someone in over their head......kinda sad to see you aren't made up!
Keep working on what ya don't understand.....you'll need the "saved" money to buy the kiddies new toys after the house burns down.
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
Jeff, once again my friend, DanT (laughing loudly!!!)
Hey Woody,
Ever get frustrated working on your own car? It's the same thing as your little electrical project.The task does require a certain amount of skill and if you don't do it everyday it IS going to be a lot harder.Not trying to sound like a prima donna electrician but sometimes there is just no substitute for experience.For the record,Mongo and others are on the right track I think,you just had too much sh+t crammed into a cheapo box that was too small to begin with.There are tricks for having just the right amount of wire in a box and pre-folding the conductors so that when you push on the device it nestles right back in.
As for the neutral ground thing,you're hung up on the idea about them terminating at the same point.The fact is they have to take radically different paths.The ground has to be a short cut for the current,outside the path of the load, in order to open the circuit immediately.If we went back to the fifties with ungrounded receptacles,a nick in a appliance cord would leave you with a parallel path between hot/load/neutral and hot/you/ground.There's a reason we have grounded outlets now, so, please, just stop with the conspiracy theories about the copper industry.
Do you feel better after venting about electrical BS? Good.Getting it out is better than holding it in.Just be glad it wasn't the starter on your car that needed replaced.
Can you say wire fill violation?
Can you say 'not to code'?
Sure! I knew you could!
Mr. 'Ready Kilowatt' Rogers