The customer who I am building a deck for right now is also having a stone facade installed on the front of there new house. Yesterday as I was packing up the HO asked if I wold look at the stone work. He said it did not look right. I went around and look at it. The stone is leaning out as it goes up. I took my plumb bob and placed it at the top where he had left off(About 14′ up). There is a difference of 4 1/2″ at 14′. He still has about 10′ to go before he gets to the gable.
On one of the columns on the porch he is 2″ out at 4′. He also installed the stone over the edge of one window. If this window ever needs replaced or work done the stone will have to be removed. Along the bottom of the window there is no way to seal it. He ran the stone under the window and the only way to keep water out would be to use several tubs of caulk.
The HO is upset and don’t know what to do. I told him to take with the building inspector to find out if there was a safety issue with the stone. If not then it would be an aesthetics issue and up to him what to do.
Kipherr
Edited 3/17/2005 7:41 pm ET by KIPHERR
Replies
What kind of stone are we talking about- cultured or real stone? Random pattern, or cut stone? What is it "hung" from? Can it be that the substrate is out of plumb and being followed? Is there a permit for the stone work? If not, the building inspector won't have much to say (other than asking where the permit is if one's required).
Honestly, it sounds like a workmanshio issue, and the first thing the homeowner should do is discuss it with the installer. Maybe he doesn't realize there's an issue, or maybe there's a reason it is like it is. Start with him and see what he says about it.
Bob
From everything you describe sounds to me like the guy's a hack, but there could be a couple of things going on. For the bottom of the window, those were aways one of the last things I ever finished off. There should be flashing and some kind of cap stone going there. Maybe that's not what's planned now, but something similar should happen.
Can't help you much for above the window without more info, but if you're talking about the stone covering up the flange, I don't know how else to do it. If it's actually covering up the frame, that's a baddy.
As for the face being 4 1/2" out of plumb, I would check to see how plumb the framing wall is. If the framing's plumb, and the stone isn't, I don't see how the stone could be tied to the wall, and it must be tied to the wall. There may be better tie systems now, but in the deep, dark past, the galvy ties we used were ~8" long. If that's what's used now, you're getting to the end of the rope on those.
I've worked against a lot of not-quite-plumb walls. The way I worked around it that keeps it hidden was, if the stone/brick/whatever is 5" off the sheathing at the bottom, it needs to be 5" off the sheathing at the top. But I don't recall working against anything 4 1/2" out in 14'.
A little further explanation would help here..
For example I'm using a random facing on my stone work.. while any one stone could be 6 inches further out than the stone below it, the back of the stone are pretty much all against the wall.. I do that to add interest and to prevent anyone from confusing actual stone work from "cultured stone" In addition each stone has a minimum of three straps tying it back into the wall and screwed in place rather than nailed..
If you look at the stone work the first clue would be how wide the morter joints are. If they all remain about 1/2 inch or so chances are the person did a carefull job..
Look at how well the joints are finished.. what you want to see is carefull tamping of the morter.. cream (or butter) should be on the surface and they should be troweled smooth..
If you were to drop a plumb bob from any one of my stones it wouldn't tell you if the wall was plumb or not. What you need to do to check is look at the back side of the stonework..
I have seen homes where the stone worker carefully moved the stone woprk out enough to be able to get all the faces flush.. to me that's bogus! That however, is my opinion. In a free society such as this one you are free to make up your own mind.
I will take some pictures tomorrow and post them.
The wall framing is plumb. The guy did not run a string or even measure from the wall while working and the stone just kept creeping out from the wall.Kipherr
Here are pictures of the stone work. If you look at the columns you can see how they start out and just keep going out. The HO just don't know what to do.
Kipherr
Well, since no one else is talking...
There's some issues here that should have been determined long before you ask this question.
The first is style. Is this the style of stonework the HO wanted? What was the example to guide the mason? Was the example complete and clear enough to understand the perceived deficiencies?
Frankly, this style has it's good points as well as bad. The goods, among others, are that it's a flexible random style, allowing variation without committment to a perceived pattern. Such random patterns by definition allow some of what you are questioning. Furthermore, this pattern allows repair, or revision, relatively easily.
The bads, among others, have deep open joints, allowing spiders and other creatures to take residence.
But the one main good that has to be emphasized, and probably why no one else has spoken up, is this guy is doing something very special and time consuming. The shear number of stones he's using tells volumes of the stonework's creation. And he's doing a fairl;y decent job of it. Yes, he could be doing a bit better, but overall, I'm giving him a 7.5 to 8 out of 10 for the effort.
The second issue is communication. Why hasn't this HO been more open with the masons? What's happened to prevent them from talking and asking questions?
The third is specifications. The question of the sill work has merit, but could be explained by the style issue. If the client was expecting sawn limestone fit to size, then it should have been specified. The issue of the windows is more of what type of window was installed - one with or without nailing fins? It matters more when it comes time to replace said windows. Are they AL or vinyl clad?
Then again, this style as mentioned allows for repair or revision. Although noticable with the vertical scaffolding next to it, the waveyness of the corners don't bother me that much. (This is where he's lost points towards the 10.) But a few of the offending stones could be taken out and replaced to extend out a bit further. As well, a few of the ones sticking out too far could be chipped smaller to fit. If one of those came out during the chipping, well it can be reinserted after its chipping is finished.
But overall, I would cut the guy some slack and keep him happy during the construction process. He'll be far more willing to correct any misplacements if happy rather than someone not appreciating the work of art he's putting together.
Other comments are limited due to the resolution of the pictures.
My suggestion is for the HO to provide lunch and/or dinner with and for the masonary crew. Have it served so they ( the HO and masons) can sit back after eating a fattening plate of ribs and admire the job. After some time admiring all that's right with the work, the HO asks, "What are we going to do about the vertical waveyness of the corners and window sills?" And then shut up until the head mason answers.
Yep, looks sloppy to me. I suspect the stone mason cares less for plumb and square. Someone should have complained earlier in the process and should share in the blame if he knew how it was coming along but said nothing.
Did the HO check his references and go look at his work? I think not. Know what you are buying!
That looks like a helluva-lotta work for the mason to eat.
stonefever makes some decent points, and while I'm tempted to take back my initial "hack" assessment, it's not work I'd be proud of. Maybe it's a matter of taste in some circles, but I always held that the corners have to be straight, plumb and square, regardless of the material used. A few inches off the corner start playing games again with it if the style warrants it, just not right at the corner.I really like the look of the stonework overall, but I'd take off a lot more than 2-2.5 out of 10 for the execution on the corners. Your eye is drawn to them, regardless of the style of stonelaying, and these corners just don't cut it for me. Someone else may love it, I don't.stonefever's right about the HO needing to let the mason know he notices the corners and I like his method too. Dunno what kind of satisfaction could come out of it, but he's gotta let him know.
He didn't need no stinking strings........Maybe he was using an Empire level????????????????????BBBWWWWAAAAAHHHHHHAAAA!!!!Seriously now.Being a mason, this type of work is the stuff that gives us a bad name. The work itself looks good.................but if it's not straight and level and plumb..............what good is it?It's got to come down and be rebuilt IMO................unless the homeowner wants to explain it to everybody for as long as he owns the house, because surely other people are going to notice. And they're going to ask............ Is that what you wanted?? Why???? He'll hafta get his story straight cause he'll be telling it for a long time...................unless he gets it fixed right.....and he should.Being a mason, it can be (read:is), easy to pick apart another mason's work. BUT..............holy sheeit!!!! How hard could it have been to make it plumb?? I think we all know the answer to that. I'll admit to having to take down and redo stuff in my early years. Not too many times though, eventually you learn to do it right the first time. It's the homeowners call, can he live with it? I couldn't, but then I also wouldn't want to eat it either. Would..........just wouldn't want to. Rod
BTW Rod, took a look at your internet-posted work. Very nice.
Thank you sir, I appreciate the comment.I see you're in NH...............I've been working, (commuting), with a crew from just over the Maine border. We've been doing timber frame structural repairs and chimney/foundation work from Topsfield, Mass to Brunswick, Maine. I love it up north, was born in Lincoln, Maine. Not that I'd want to go back that far north.My last kid is in college right now, and the wife and I are thinking of maybe moving back north. And the way it looks, it should be in the area of Haverhill, Mass to Wells, Maine, east or west a bit.Any recommendations?Maine over New Hampshire, or vica versa? Rod
I've lived in NH for a good part of my life, and so I'm partial to it. We live in the southwest corner of the state, a little known, mostly untravelled area for the most part. I spent a number of years in North Conway, and rarely go back to visit my parents (bad child, I know). I really don't know much about the coastal part of NH, so I'll plead ignorance there and can't really help you out on that side. No income or sales tax in NH, at least for the time being. Folks from Mass come up to buy liquor at the state stores and sort of keep the state mostly solvent. There is a business profits tax, really a state corp tax. Property taxes are not cheap though.Depending on what you and your wife are looking for, we're huge fans of this area. If you'd like, feel free to send me an email through BT and I'll give you more details.Rick
Stone work looks good. But.... in that first picture I would not cut the stone around the rail. Looks bad! I would do 100% stone on that collum then attach the rail after the stone work is finished.
Other then that, looks nice!
as a side track, how is your castle coming and when can we expect a few more pictures out of you, you have learned how to post pictures by now haven't you?
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=56386.1
Everything else aside I would be more concerned about the safety of the wall. If it is leaning out 4.5 inches with all that weight it cannot be safe. Take it down, call in the building inspector I bet he will make the decision.