OK i’m sorta handy and i’m going to be building a new house soon. I’m seriously considering doing the stone work myself and i’m curious how tough it is…i.e. am i setting myself up for failure.
What type of stonework? Stone veneer (either stacked or laid flat against the wall) on a fireplace and stone pillars surrounding 10×10 posts <– see attached.
I know most things in life are harder than they look so i’m kind of wondering what’s so tough about doing this?
Replies
quickest method for success. get some books related to style so you'll have a good idea of what to look for in quality versus quantity. to me the skill is relitively easier to learn than building with block or brick. stone work is more of an art than a skill though good bonding principles like one over two and two over one will dictate good work. learn the proper batches for good bonding strength, and workability. one of my crew swears that adding a shovel of lime to a full batch makes the mix "stickier and easier to bond natural stone. i prefer adding a couple of trowels of portland to achieve a faster setting batch and i feel a stronger bond. anyway i have some photos of different styles my guys and i handle for clients vaying tastes on the company webpage. hope this helps.
jon jordan
http://www.jjordanbuilders.com
what's so tough about doing this?
Seeing what's in that picture is the toughest thing I've had to do all day.
Yes!
Like it grew there......awesome.
Ain't that chapel in Colorado?
Yes its the one on the back way to Estes Park! I would go to church 3 times a week if it were close to my house!
Man, that house rocks!-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
scaffolding is half the job
Bob: Your postage stamp is on the wrong corner of the envelope.
Don
Bob: I do a lot of glass & stone etching. Granite & Marble mainly. I wind up cutting a fair amount of granite. I watched all the stone masons on the east coast one summer build/veneer a bunch of buildings at West Point, NY. Looked easy. I promise you, it is a heckofalot harder than it looks. I have tried it, and firmly believe it is a skill you should hire if you want a good looking job when you are finished. I have a brick house w/ granite keystones above all the openings. I priced the keystones and croaked. Went to a tombstone maker in Elberton, GA, home of the largest contiguous pile of granite in the US (sorry, Vermont) & got free scraps. My Crapsman saw w/ a DeWalt brick blade & a large hammer & chisels managed to shape out the 6 stones I needed. That is the limit of my ability. Laying them w/ the correct bonding mixture & shimming them so their own weight doesn't squeeze out all the mortar before it cures is beyond what I want to try, & I will try anything - at least once. (For the dirty minded among us, we have 4 kids.)
A month ago, my son, grandson & I repaired/restored a Revolutionary War grave site. It was a field stone wall about 30 inches high that had been vandalized. Luckily, we found the original missing stones that defined the shape of the vandalized areas. I can cut granite reasonably well, but mastering it has eluded me. To get things flat, plumb, properly meshed/joined and bonded takes a whole lot of skill and practice. To start w/nothing but a pile of stones and a bag of mortar mix and finish up w/ a good looking job is not something a first timer can expect to do.
Don
Not to sound condescending or anything but being 'kinda handy' in the realm of stone work will qualify you to carry the mud but not much more. Stone work is a true craft that takes years to learn and become proficient in. I've done enough masonry work to know I'm far from close to this level of expertise. Faux stone is easier to work with but still presents you with challenges to get the right look while making sure the mechanics of attachment will last.
If you're interested in learning about the trade, hire a pro to do your house and jump in to help and watch. Then recognize how thankful you are to not have taken the job on yourself. Like has already been said, stone work is an art, a craft, a profession and the reason it looks so easy is because they (pros) have paid their dues and learned this specialty through years of experience and practice. It's better to have a job you can say you helped on and be happy with than to look at a disaster and have to admit you did the whole thing...
How much of the rest of the house are you going to build? I am currently building my own house and doing everything myself except a few jobs that I have not even a novice skill at (and some jobs that are just too cheap to hire out). It is the hardest thing I have ever had the misfortune to do.
If you are doing most of the work yourself, hire out the masonary. You will already have your hands full with everything else. Taking on the masons job will only make your project take even longer to complete. I hired out my masonary and it was worth the extra money. Not that I or you couldn't learn how to do it and even maybe become somewhat skilled at it, but the getting there will take a real long time.
Good luck on you project.
Rob Kress
Rob:
"How much of the house am i thinking about doing..?" Well, that's the process i'm kind of working through right now. It's a timberframe house so the frame/walls/roof (big timbers and SIP panels) are outside of the realm.
I'm a EE and have an electrician that would be glad to work with me on the electrical but you kind of need a crew around as the timberframe is being erected so i'm not sure it makes sense for me to try and do this.
I'd like to do the tile work -- personally i really dislike the look of the prefab fiberglass shower units -- in the kitchen (backsplash), bathrooms and mud room.
Also i was looking for some things that *could* be done after getting a CO that may take a long time and were more labor intensive -- patio (pavers) out of a walk out basement, stone work around the pillars (see picture), etc.
Any feedback from someone that's done this is really welcome...and no i won't take 'you're nuts for trying suchandsuch as a putdown'. I'd rather get insight now rather than after i've gotten into the job
From the sound of it i would gain a lot of insight to try my hand at trying a small project first. There is an area at my current house that could use a small (1'x2'x8') stacked wall that i could try. Any idea what materials would cost for somethign like this?
I'm the last person to discourage anyone from tackling a project themselves, but from the pic on that link, that's a lot of stonework. The piers maybe, but the wall, chimney above the roof, and probably the fireplace as well? That's a damn good-sized job.
Don't equate 'considering' with 'doing'. Right now i'm in the scoping stage of considering what i can do vs. what makes sense. Hense the motivation for the post to begin w/...and believe me, i really appreciate the caution/insight of those on this list. I have no desire nor illusion of doing all this stuff, just in the fact finding stage.
Actually that's not the house...but the pillars are the same as what i'd like to do. Also since these are somethign i can do *after* i move in then timing isn't quite a big a deal as doing a job that looks good.
Bob , If you do the wall at your house now ,IMO , do it with mortar not drystack . use cheaper stone , the rough uncut stuff . It will give you a better feal for the whole prosses of stacking and laying stone . stand back a few times and look at your wall and the stone pile for the next good fit . Try several stones dry ,then mortar them.
I don't think that those pillars are out of reach for you . Always look for the cleanest cut stones for your corners and fill in with the rougher ones. Mix longs and shorts . Try not to have a head joint right over any in the last three coarses.
Softer stones ,sand stone , need a softer mortar like type S or a lime mortar and harder stone ,Granite, can be laid up with portland.
Rich/Don/others
OK...clearly sounds like
1) try it first --
2) it takes a *long* time and is a lot of work
Based on this here's the currently plan -- and yes, if you're interested i'll keep you posted...you may get a laugh as we go along
i'll build something here at the current house -- probably using natural stone.
Dependign on how that goes the stuff i plan to do at the new house will be stuff i can do after we move in -- i.e. fireplace in the unfinished basement and the pillars outside the house, walk out patio...
The stuff i'm considering doing *during* the building process (for now) would be
tile work
electrical (maybe)
Bob C
Note that local stone is usually less expensive as well as more likely to offer consistency with others in the neighborhood.
I think its agreed here that you need a little talent to go along with your ambition.
I once was going to build a stone wall in front of my house. A local highway project was the source for 6 free pick-up loads of field stone. I tried stacking them every which way and could'nt make anything that looked decent. They sat there for a year before I started tossing them over a bank for fill.
My wife came out and "said what a waste. just leave them there and I'll try". I came home later that afternoon and she had a beautiful two tiered garden wall built. Now she does all the stone work around our new house. I just do the heavy lifting.
Hi Bob,
My husband is building our house. The only parts we are contracting out are the concrete slab, some of the plumbing and the Icynene insulation. We did one wall with Cultured Stone, and still have one wall to go in CS. The rest of the exterior is Hardie Shingleside.
We hadn't done much masonry before, but the CS did go well. It is certainly something that can be readily learned. As others have mention, it (and all of housebuilding alone) is slow going. There is much to learn, as well an astounding amount of work to do.
Awhile back I posted some shots of our place going up at: http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=37409.1 One of these days I'll post some more (but as I said, it is slow going).
kestrel
Just looked at your pictures, dont know how I missed them the first time.
I really like the stone work!
Doug
Hi Doug,
Thanks for the compliment!
We have quite a bit more to do and I'll post pics when it is done. I'm sure the next wall will go faster. On that front wall, I hunted down every rock to fit the space available. I think on the back we will do a bit more tactical cutting.
It can be fun to do and I'm looking forward to doing more rock this fall.
Thanks again, kestrel
just wanted to compliment your husband and crew on a stout, and clean looking construction job. that house is very well built and certainly very well thought out. lot of attention to detail! your husband a welder in the navy? lemme guess, a hull tech.? navy man myself! anyway, i enjoyed looking at his ridge and post's details using steel. that is something i've thought about before when encountering span/load situations involving open spaces like great rooms. those pics gave me another perspective aside from massive lam-beams i accustomed to using. good luck and keep up the good work!
jon jordan
http://www.jjordanbuilders.com
HI Jon,
From you, this was a fantastic compliment. I love your work!
As far as stout, we are maybe a bit over done, but we are in tornado alley. This house won't take a direct hit, but it can handle some tough wind.
You nailed it on my (housebuilder) love , he is a HTCS. Retired in 1980. (Ug - that sounds like a lifetime ago -- but building a house makes you young again.) When were you in?
The steel feels cool, is different, is strong, and it cost a lot less than a lambeam, at least when we bought it . We priced a lam and choked at the price. I know the price of steel has gone up, but it may still be very competitive.
kestrel
thanx for the compliments. i am actually looking to my steel supplier i normally use for beams to to support floor systems, to price me out something along the lines your husband set up for your ridge. we do a lot of heavy work so the weight does not scare me, but i wanna see what kind of pricing i'm looking at. yes ma'am i thought he looked like a chief, (your husband). he's got that (turn-to!) look about him. of course only navy folks are familiar with that term, ha-ha!. i was in from '84-'88. i went in at seventeen and worked with the sea-bees out of gulfport for a year then opted to go to the fleet to see what i was missing. went on a few cruises, wrestled on the all-navy team under the military sports program, (my excuse for lolly-gagging!). got out of the service, wrestled on a scholarship that helped me pay for college and still ended up doing what i love instead of what i thought was the "correct" career path. the trades have their ups and downs as with anything else in life, but for the most, it's satisfying, adventurous, and intriguing. my next adventure is to leave the south and build a dream home out in oregon for my significant other and daughters. i guess 'ol forest was right, "NEVER KNOW WHAT YER GONNA GIT"! take care and good luck on that pretty home yall are building. -red sky at night
jon jordan
http://www.jjordanbuilders.com
That is pretty awesome work...i'm ambitious but not that ambitious. I know the cultured stone is more expensive...roughly how does the cost compare to natural stone. It looks amazingly natural from various pictures i've seen.
Did ya'll look hard at cultured vs. natural stone?
Hi Bob,
Thanks for the compliment -- but you really could do it yourself!
We did look at natural stone in a round about way and may still use some on a masonry heater. Locally cut stone is expensive. The prime thing for us was ease of construction and Cultured Stone is versitile. DIY CS is less than half of what a mason would charge to do natural stone.
kestrel
Ok then, here goes....
I started framing last year around labor day (is that the fall holiday?). Framed with myself and 2 very experienced carpenters and 2 laborers. Finished some time in feb. Didn't work straight through of course (bad weather and some other scheduling things) but it would have taken a well oiled framing crew much less time. I did save money.
It took me a month to run all of my plumbing from start to finish. That's all the dwv and water lines connected, vented, and pressured up. The only thing I have to do is put in the fixtures. Again a long time.
I am very near the end of electrical after using more than nearly 7000 ft of romex, 1000 ft of rg6, 2000 ft of cat 5e, 200 single gang boxes, one full 40 circuit main panel, and 3 sub panels. Kind of overkill but I was able to do it the way that I wanted it. By the time I am done it will be a month of electrical. A long time.
Of course, if you add that all up that only gets me somewhere near april or may but you have to figure in all the other things that need doing.... Handling the roofing sub (because roofers get paid too little to do the roof myself and it is mostly 12 /12), taking care of the masons an the stuff they needed, punch list items left over from framing, going to get parts, answering the phone (like a general contractor does), etc..... And I will be doing all the rest.
Pick your jobs wisely. And plan to be over budget on everything. Do only those jobs that you know you can do very well (and quickly) or those jobs that you know you can suffer the longer time that it will take for you to do it so you can get what you want. I'm not sure that I chose my jobs well cause I'm right in the middle of hell right now. When it's all over (and I can't wait), I think I'll be able to better asses how it all worked out.
If you want to know more please ask and I will expound on anything. I would not and did not choose to do the masonry on purpose.
One big asterisk to my project. I am in a very unique position to build my house and take nearly as long as I need to do it. My wife is a bonified sugar mamma and loves what she does for her career. So, she supports my free loading behind while I have checked out of my career path to build this house. We are living with family while we are building and though we pay rent, it is still very inexpensive for us to survive. The piece of land that we are building on is in a very well positioned neighborhood outside of Cleveland and we got it at a reasonable price. Taking that into account and factoring in the market value of homes in the same arena, we could easily be 50% over budget and still make a boat load of money on this house if we had to sell. We are not going to sell but we will have incredible value once the home is finished. This has nothing to do with how cheaply I am building or how long I am taking. It has everything to do with the price of other homes in the area and the kind of home I am building. The market literally sets the value of my home and we tried very hard to set ourselves up in a situation where this was the case. And I don't have a bank loan. My wife and I are financing this out of pocket with a little help from our families. Like I said, my position is very unique and most people don't have this kind of opportunity.
It has taken a very big toll on me and my immediate circle.... I work every day. I haven't been away from Cleveland and to my cabin in PA in more than a year. I have literally checked out of my career path as an engineer and am having a little bit of trouble finding my skill set relevant to potential employers after being out of the game for a while. I don't see my friends. I don't see my wife except at night and sometimes to arrange daycare stuff. I never see my daughter except at night. I miss all holidays and family happenings. I can't think of anything else so I miss all the important dates in my life and my family circle. I don't play any of my instruments any more cause I'm just too damn tired. And I only get to email and internet a few times a week if I don't fall asleep before I get to it. The project has totally consumed me. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't do it again and I'm not sure it was worth it (but I won't know that until the end).
Hope that's what you were looking for, (trying to be as honest as I can be)
Rob Kress
It has taken a very big toll on me and my immediate circle.... I work every day. I haven't been away from Cleveland and to my cabin in PA in more than a year. I have literally checked out of my career path as an engineer and am having a little bit of trouble finding my skill set relevant to potential employers after being out of the game for a while. I don't see my friends. I don't see my wife except at night and sometimes to arrange daycare stuff. I never see my daughter except at night. I miss all holidays and family happenings. I can't think of anything else so I miss all the important dates in my life and my family circle. I don't play any of my instruments any more cause I'm just too damn tired. And I only get to email and internet a few times a week if I don't fall asleep before I get to it. The project has totally consumed me. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't do it again and I'm not sure it was worth it (but I won't know that until the end).
Hey....... that's sounds just like my job.
Rob
I wish i lived next door. Less so that i could get your help but rather i'd enjoy learning and helping you out. Soon as i read your electrical stats i figured you must be the anal/engineer/overdesign it type .... i'm the same personality. Also i can empathize with your career position, I'm a EE in the computer field and as i get older i feel less and less qualified. Right now this home building process is a whole lot more fun than work. That said, i can't quit the day job ;)
So based on what you know now, would you still have done the electrical? Did you do any of the tile work?
Hang in there! and thanks for the lengthly post.
Looking back, I would have hired out the plumbing instead of doing it myself. Not enough payoff because there are really very few ways to run a proper plumbing system and the code is very complicated (well more like detailed). So it took me a long time and the only thing I got out of it was a little bit of money savings and a properly functioning plumbing system. And I suppose it is run very tightly and neatly in the basement (I plan to finish it... it's a walk out).
Yes, I would do the electrical again. It has not really been hard or too terribly long and I am doing some pretty trick things with my electrical system. Keep in mind that is including all of the low voltage and communications wiring as well. There is also whole house sound which I am hoping to be out of this world (going to be controlled from a PDA via wireless ethernet).
If you do your own electrical though, you definitely need to hire an advisor who is an electrician and does residential work. I have two. Do not hire a plumbing advisor unless he only does work in your community and knows what the inspector wants to see and how he likes it run. The better route is to make nice with the inspector and have him tell you how he wants things done. That's what I did after fumbling though with a couple advisors who always came back to.... but I don't know how this inspector likes it.
I would never hire out my tile work because the guys who do it right cost more than I want to afford and the guys I want to afford don't do it right. My quality is roughly 85 - 90 % of what the good guys can do. And for me, that is just fine. The tile in my place is confined to the garage entrance (honed black slate) and the bathrooms (including the master bath shower.... but that shower has an acrylic or whatever precast plastic base to make it easy). The rest of the house is hardwood floors. All tiles will be 12" square on the floor and smaller (?) in the shower. Cement backer board under everything. To me, tile is pretty easy as long as you follow the rules. The hard pat though is sucking it up when you really don't want to follow the rules explicitly.
Right now this home building process is a whole lot more fun than work.
My job (house building project) is every single thing in the entire wide world except fun! Enjoy it while it lasts.
Rob Kress
I agree with stonefever - I do my own stone and tilework because it is so visible and because I like the feeling of "evidence" one gets with that type of work, but I could not make a living at it - I'm too slow...
I built a river rock wall in front of my house out of smooth round rocks (they call them Folsom potatoes here) that was incredibly painstaking. I had a mason quote it and he wanted 25k because he didn't want to work with the round stones - too much of a pain - he was used to the fake stone with the flat back that sticks where you stick it.
Use small wooden wedges jammed into the fresh mortar joint to keep the stones in place while the mortar sets., then yank them out and fill in the hole w/ fresh mud before the mortar is totally dry. Keep the stones wet with an old washcloth until the joints set a little and then you can use a nylon brush and aforementioned washcloth to clean up the joints nice and pretty like. Mix your mortar in small batches because the stone setting is so slow - like a puzzle - that your mud will dry before you use it.
The wall took me FOREVER but it looks great. Just can't be in a hurry. I could never make a living doing that type of work unless I found a rich benefactor willing to wait forver for an artful finished project.
IMHO natural stone masonry is hard for the inexperienced to do well, but it can be done if one is quite patient in a "zen and art of stone masonry" kind of way and willing to deal with the occasional re-do.
Wylie
Success = Work+ Risk + Luck, in that order. Muriel Seibert
Wylie:
I think for stonework that can wait till i move in...i've got a chance of being able to do that. Typically i can do pretty good work, am patient, etc. as long as i don't have a deadline -- i.e. i could never make a living at it either.
I'll go look at the cultured stone and also the local natural stone around here and try my hand at it before it counts.
Stuff that has to be done 'on time' i'll most like hire out...maybe i can keep it to a minimum as well as learn something in the process.
I was a bricklayer for 12-13yrs, with the emphasis on "brick." Enough stone jobs came up to keep it interesting, but it turned out to just not be my cup of tea. I was slow and not always happy with the way it came out. On the other hand, 1 guy I worked with was really good with it. Fast and always looked great. I think there are folks who can lay stone, and those who can't, and it doesn't matter how good they are with a trowel. Case in point - my wife's building some raised garden beds out of flat field stone, they're coming out great, and she's not a mason. I couldn't do better.
jjordan's points about the mix are right. Depending on what we worked with, we'd either use a primarily mortar mix with some portland thrown in, or primarily portland with mortar or lime thrown in.
If you take it on, it can be extremely satisfying, provided it comes out with the look you were expecting.
Good luck.
Bob,
The more I think about this, the more I agree with everyone else. I'm a carpenter, it's how I make my living, but I'm willing to try pretty much anything. If I were building my own house, of course I would do a bunch of the work myself. I would have to say that the only two trades I wouldn't even bother trying to do myself would be masonry work and the electrical work. The electrical could kill me. The stone work could just make me wanna die. You can get a good enough knack for mud/tape after a few sheets. If you keep the design simple enough you can frame it well enough following the codes. But stone work......it's just too permanent. I'm handy too. I'll change my oil, filters, fluids, brakes. If I need a new tranny, I'm calling a mechanic....it's along those lines.
But you surely deserve an A for eagerness and optimism! Good on ya!
This is more of a personal issue.
No one but me does the stone work on my house.
It's not because others are incompentent or I'm poor. To me, stonework is the most visible component of one's home. It provides a spirit, or soul to one's nest that defines that nest.
I have a tough time feeling that spirit when someone else does my stonework.
But mostly, I want to be able to impress myself (and give me the accompanying personal satisfaction) knowing that there's only a few that can do what I've done.
In reality, the other comments are correct about the labor. It's foolishly difficult. It's incredibly slow (for someone not experienced). And it's a form of art. If you fail to include some facet of art within it, why bother?
I could never do it professionally as it takes too long to get the result I desire. But I've been doing this on my homes for over 25 years. Each becomes better than the last. Not trying to sound arrogant, but I'll put my work up against any professional.
That satisfaction really comes out when you have the owners and distributors of the stoneyards themselves come by to inspect and they drop their mouths wide open in disbelief that a stockbroker is able to exceed the abilities of the majority of their clients.
I like your attitude.Les Barrett Quality Construction
some of my clients have helped on various stone projects that crop up. i've had one lawyer end up doing so well at getting the "eye" for good work that i felt he had more talent in laying the stone than some of my crew at that time. difficult subject when comparing experience versus talent. the experienced mason will be great at the job/scaffold setup, and mixes, etc. the inexperienced mason with "talent" will just have that "knack" for finding the right stone every time without going to the hammer or diamond saw for every fit. i'd encourage anyone with enough physical abilities and jobsite savvy to give it a go. just start with small projects like you stated before and steady plodding will bring sure success.
no, it's not easy. I have a LOT more to lay, both dry stack, and mortared..I shoulda subbed it out.
These stones WERE my fireplace till they got removed and tossed in a backfill trench...I am giving them new life..lol while it kills me.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
OH GOD I'm going blind .
OK..OK, first i'll address the eye-sight problem...sorry about the super small picture before. This isn't the house but the posts and their stone base are one of the things i'd like to do.
http://www.tntimberframe.com/ravenrock.html
Another related couple of questions
1) i'm sure it depends on what type of stone, but in general how do the costs breakdown...is the labor most of the cost, half the cost, ...?
2) is stacked stone easier / harder to lay than (terminology?) stone laid flat against the wall, as it were.
The quality of the stone determines the ease of fit as well as labor cost. By this I mean, the type of stone that has been cut and trimmed for you is easier to lay. It also means that this type is more expensive.
Don't go to the "dry stack" look unless you practice for awhile.
But let's get real.
You're going to do the electric, tile, stone, and what else? You're kidding yourself if you really think so. Not with the amount of stone I see in your picture. Or, you will end up taking 5 years or more to finish the project. Or maybe it's how you approach the job...
If I were building that house and wanted to do the stone myself, I would still hire at least 2 kids to tender. I would lay while they would cut, carry, mix, setup, teardown, clean, scratch and wire brush. Figure in the cost of buying the scaffolding. For how long it will take, renting will be too expensive.
You will have to keep the day job, won't you?
So the drystack look is tougher?
Yes, keepin' the day job but taking some time off...kind of banking some vacation.
Stone work and plumbing are about the same for me.
Both require patience... both require a knack... and both require my wife to be in a different place for me to do it (because of all of the cussin')!!
I have done a few small jobs around my old house in stone (to see if I could do it). Just like plumbing... I would do it... stand back and look at it... tear it out... do it again... look at it...
And to continue the analogy... just when I thought I was done... I would find a crack in the one stone in the bottom (find a leak in the soldered joints), and have to start again.
Veneer is MUCH easier than stone... but still takes a knack.
My suggestion. Get a couple of pieces of plywood and build a box about 4x4x4. Paint the box with gray primer. Get enough stone veneer to cover at least two sides and one corner. Use duct tape to fasten the pieces to the box. Do the corner (obviously) and the two sides without giving it too much thought... just stick them on however the spirit moves you. If you can make the stone look like you want in the first two trys... you probably have the knack. If you have to over-think it... you probably don't have the knack.
Here are some specifics for reference: The attachment is the first house built that we still live in, built in 1971, did this stone work with $18 worth of scrabble one man rock picked up at the sunset quarry, 6 sack concrete mix out of 'reclaim' as "mortar" laid against 6" rebarred steel ( sesmic zone, renton wa)
So, if you will be satified with that type layup, go for it, if you think it looks like sh__, then pay somebody else.
In the photo alblum of the house, DW cut quotes out of various magazines, one of which said "even if you get the stone free, the labor is (very high)" Probably spent 2 days on this (double sided) just picking where stones from the rubble pile could fit.
Forgive poor pix, this is right behind a corner desk in the room, just turned around and took the pix.