Not really sure how to handle the refferal thing. There’s nothing wrong with refferals, especially since that is how I get most of my business.
But I have discovered that not everyone I have reffered in the past has maintained the level of work that I thought they were capable of. Which of course comes back on me. Unless I am there to oversee the work myself and getting paid for that, it’s just not worth it. Having said that there are one or two guys that have proven time and again to be consistent and I would not hesitate to recommend. But over all, it creates a headache when people ask me if I know a plumber etc…
They expect that because I’m in the business I should know somebody and send them their way for free. Which is fine, but then they want me to check the guys work, and when I find something wrong, the guy calls me up to start yelling at me for checking his work.
I know I am doing something wrong. But I find myself in conflict, not knowing exactly how to handle it.
please correct my of my ways.
Replies
"Here are the names of a couple of people I have used in the past. I found them capable of doing the jobs I needed done. You will have to talk to them about what it is you need done."
I vary that phraseology a bit depending on who I am talking to but that is my standard line, and I quit calling the recommended party about the issue.
Good question, one that I wrestled with on a few occasions too. HO's can be a PIA about referrals sometimes.
Most recently I referred a plumber who I know to be qualified, fair priced and prompt. He performed way above the HO expectations but the HO still had something negative to say..
Same day service, half what the HO expected to pay, complete explanation of the problem and options, job finished rapidly, thorough cleanup, itemized bill, courteous to his wife, etc., etc.
One mildly off color joke between he and the HO. The HO had to mention that. Like he didn't want to feel that he owed me, so he brought up a very minor transgression of his territorial values.
What to do? In that case I'll remember not to refer anyone else to that HO in the future, just tell him that I don't know anyone who's doing that kind of work.
My way of doing referrals is pretty simple but it took some time to figure out. I have an agreement with two guys, the plumber I mentioned and an electrician, to take good care of my referrals.
Of course I've agreed to give their clients prompt, courteous attention too. Win-win, but it has to be agreed on before any referrals are given.
Yeah, it's one of those things that has me scratching my head. I used to send refferals all the time, but always seemed to pay the price.
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I just tell people like it is.....I don't vouch for anyone else's work. There's very few other subs that I know that I'd refer. Right now I've got an electrician and that's about it. If I was building a place for myself, I could fill it with subs without question, but I know how to handle them and what to watch out for. But to just turn them over to a HO and end up with my name attached (whether I like it or not)? No way.
"No good deed goes unpunished" always seems to come true for me in this situation.
I had a roofing sub I liked. Until he started making money and stopped going to work and sent me crews where not one guy spoke English. Literally. "These are your subs?" I heard.
I had a plumber that gouged the #### out of my own father.
I had a painter who showed up clearly intoxicated after lunch and tried to flirt openly with a married homeowner.
And I've got an excavator that does awesome work but can't put a T-shirt over his huge kitchen no matter the social situation he's in. Also only knows one adjective and it begins with "F".
I had a sider who I was feeding tons of work to. Maybe too much. Because last winter he stopped returning phone calls (even mine!) when he got too busy and jacked up the prices on the ones he did get around to meeting with.
But I do know an awesome electrician. That's about it. Berini Electric if anyone needs a sparkie in the MA area! :)View Image
yeah..you nailed it dieselpig. Unless you there to be in charge and make sure they do it right, who knows what's liable to happen.
I'm bidding on a job right now, and got an email from the customer asking if I know electrician for small unrelated item. I'm thinking of telling her my electrican comes with a mark up. And throwing her a couple of the big names from around town if she wants to find someone. View Image View Image
>> got an email from the customer asking if I know electrician for small unrelated item. <<
First rule: don't answer the E-mail via E-mail. Never put anything like that in writing unless you are intending to get paid and be involved.
Luckily I don't deal that much with HOs, but my standard line is "Sorry - all the subs I know only do new construction work". Having said that, I also feel I have a certain responsibility to my subs - more often than not you get a feeling about customers and if there are any red flags at all, I'd never refer them to a sub who I want to use again.
I guess we've all been up up this creek a few times. The HO expects us to know other tradespeople who are as responsible and skilled as we are. It's hard to tell them that such people are the exception.
"Oh, you must know somebody who can do it for me". Or,"can't you make some calls and find someone?"
They just don't believe that it's a coin toss for us most of time too. The only difference is that we know how to get what we need from these guys because we've been there before. And even then the 'when' part is almost always in doubt.
I've concluded that it's better to refer the HO to a supplier, when they try to corner me on this topic. I use that avenue myself when I can't get a name from someone whose judgement I trust. I just don't give the HO a name at the supplier. I say it's just a suggestion, something I might do.
The HO can't complain too much about a referral he gets from a supplier, not to me anyway. It's clearly the most logical way to go so if it doesn't work out well, he just won't ask me again. That works for me.
I think I use the same subs as you do...
Been there too many times. Just heard one last weekend, referred our excellent electrician to a friend. I had to hear about how they never know who's going to show up, and that it's cold in the house with all the trips in and out, and why's it taking so long (whole house re-wire due to lightning. Done in a week. BFD.)
It goes the other way too. Send good guys to homeowner, homeowner never calls them back, or jerks them around.
I'm trying to get in the habit of saying that our subs only like to work for GC's like us, which is pretty much true.
I typically say, "Joe Blow and John Doe do great work...(pause)...for me and the way I lay out projects and work with them on how I'd like it done. They may or may not be worth a darn for you." I'd then offer to hire them for a reasonable percentage to insure the level of quality I'm used to.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Best answer of the bunch Don. Hire them for a markup and do the management. I sure as hell won't call anyone and I'm reluctant to make referrals either.Lignum est bonum.
I'd then offer to hire them for a reasonable percentage to insure the level of quality I'm used to.
That's good management for medium to large jobs which require regular consultation between me and the HO but what's a reasonable fee for full time supervision of a small job?
That's going to add at least one third to the labor price so, for most people, it's not the affordable kind of solution that they're looking for when they ask for a referral.
That's going to add at least one third to the labor price so, for most people, it's not the affordable kind of solution that they're looking for when they ask for a referral.
If they want affordable I simply say I'm not sure who to call.
Sometimes I'll get a call for a small job and I'll work it in with our schedule so I'll take the sub to the house and line them out, leave for the majority of work and return to make sure things worked out. We work in a relatively small area so my commute time is rarely more than 5 min one way.
On average I'd say going through me adds 25% to the price by the time my markup and time is added in, however I have some subs that will work for 2/3rds their normal rate when they need a filler job so in the end the client pays less than if they hired them directly.
After seeing #### work done by past subs, or even carpenters that do great work on our jobs, I almost can't get myself to recommend anyone unless a check goes through my hands. I am quick to suggest one sub that's over priced and another that does poor work, saying they are never busy. *chuckle*
Good building
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I was going to say the same thing Don.If people ask for referrals, they are really asking for services rendered. I would immediately tell them the same thing that Don said but I would add one more thing: I would tell them that they will probably pay more if they use the sub directly and explain that as a GC, I get better pricing because of the volume discount factor that exists in all business arrangements. I'd explain that I don't pass on the discount but that the difference is the pay I work for supervising and delivering the service they need. I'd also offer to let them deal direct but then warn them that, like all tradespeople, they will need supervision and if they don't end up with great service, don't call me. If they called me later complaining, I'd just laugh and remind them of my warning. This has already happened several times in my career and after I laugh, I sincerely tell them that I tried to warn them but now they have to deal with them themselves. GCing is a tough job and there is real value delivered when these types of services are supervised. Most homeowners are thinking they can save a few bucks and eliminate the "middle man". That's us. It really doesn't work that way though. Frank just told me that he lost a job last summer for the interior finish on a pool house. The bid was 305k. The owner laughed at the bid and told him that he'd do it himself. Frank gave him the warning and gave him all the subs. The guy did save some money: he got it done eventually for 300k. He saved 5k and went through h e ll getting it done. So the moral is: don't give the referrals until you try to get the job. After that, give the referrals with a fair warning or simply refuse to give them and explain that it always has turned out bad. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Seeing as how I've bid on a job that involved eletrical for the latest client. I simply told them that that my electrican was busy in another area right now. ( which is true enough) I told them they could try "so and so". adding that I've never used him but he is one of the bigger names out here.
I think that will cover me if they go that route and it doesn't work out. I guess the worst that could happen is they call me and tell me not to refer him to anyone else. Then I can say OK thanks for the info.
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Edited 2/8/2008 10:30 am by alrightythen
It's a very good point, and I'm careful about what I say about my referrals. As pointed out, it can work both ways.