*
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
Listeners write in about haunted pipes and building-science tomes, and they ask questions about roof venting and roof leaks.
Featured Video
Highlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Replies
*
Sonny has a post about problems his son's are having with unlicensed contractors undercutting him and I have a workable solution - that will never fly.
In La Crosse, WI a licensed electrician is required to replace as much as an outlet. Now, we know most of those outlets and other items being sold by the HDs, etc are not being put in an an acceptable manner soooooooooo.
Why not have a building insector at each check out lane to certify that every faucet, every switch, maybe even every 2x4 if you can't prove you live in a one level home, has either a permit or a written proposal from a licensed professional to do the work? Think how happy the customers would be to know all their work was being done as the licensed professionals saw fit. Heck, you could simply add the cost of the inspectors salary to the costs of building permits - who could object to that?
Those of you who have been around a while know that this was the state of affairs in the plumbing industry as recently as 10 or 15 years ago. Plumbing wholesalers would not sell to the public, only licnesed contractors, and had show rooms with fixtures, but list prices only.
So, place this in the suggestion box at HD, etc. and see what happens.
*If this seems absurd, in La Crosse, when I installed the boilers for my heating system, I had to provide proof of permit to the local wholesaler where I have an account in order to purchase the boilers. The system did work sometime ago - before the HD's, etc.Interestingly enough, have you noticed that the HDs, etc. have little clinics on how do do all these things that mostly require permits? The slippery slope problably goes something like this. First you attend a clinic to do a little fixing around the house, then you find you like fixing better than your own job, then you read Breaktime and become an expert, then you take your pickup truck, get a little magnetic sign and you are contractor. Geez, here's a thought. Blue decides to go into business as a plumber with his backhoe. The water pressure would go down all over Detroit while the real plumbers were trying to stop the leaks from borken lines, to say nothing of cable, telephone, electricity, well you get the idea.Dennis
*Dennis,What you say makes sense, but as you say, it will never fly.Perscriptions for 2x4's?I like it.Ed. Williams
*What a world where we'll only sell thread to licensed tailors, eggs to licensed chefs, pencils to licensed artists, oil to licensed mechanics.We'd all be rich. Every trade would be in such high demand that wages would be tripple what they are now. Then we could spend all our newfound money hiring someone with a license to type our breaktime responses.think I'll still just let people do their own thing even I am the smartest one and I do know what's best for the rest of the little people that need my protection cause they're weaker and dumber than me.
*Well, I have a different view on this.I do minor electrical and plumbing work now, and will continue to do so in the future. I do this for my sake, the customers sake, and because I feel it is the right thing to do.Here is an example of what I'm talking about. I go to a client's house, and I am replacing some rotten wood wround the door jamb. She asks me if I can take a look at her ceiling fan, cause the switch doesn't work anymore. Well, I check the switch, and it is ok. The fan motor has basically burned up. Her son recoomends to her that she call an electrician to come test the circuits. I tell her that probably would be a good idea.She calls an electrical contractor to come fix it. An 18 year old kid shows up, rips out her old fan, installs a new one, and it don't work either. He never bothers to troubleshoot anything because he doesn't know how. He was simply told to go replace a bad ceiling fan. He does not install a hangar for the fan, cause he didn't know he needed to. Then he hands her the bill for $250.00. She has tears in her eyes as she pays it.I come back the next day with my testers, and I find out that a wire nut had come loose in the box. Could have happened when the kid changed out the fan motor, or it could have been like that. I reconnect the electrical wires, install a fan hanger, and reinstall the fan. Everything works fine. Here, you do not have to be licensed to do electrical work. Only one man needs a license, and everyone else in the company can work under his license numbner.Here, if the work is not massive, requires a lot of troubleshooting, or is going to make a lot of monay, then the companies will send out kids to do the minor work. No skill needed is the motto for them.Same thing with the plumbers. If I can save my customers some money, and make some myself, then I will do so.I am smart enough to know when to get an electrician or plumber to come and do the work. If it gets major, or requires a lot of troubleshooting, I have the customer call the electrician or plumbers in. In these cases, they send their more seasoned and experienced workers in.Just a thought...James
*Same here James. I've been told PA is what's refered to as a "Right to Work" state. Basically , no one can stop you from performing various tasks to gain income. I'm sure there's a line you can't cross, like performing surgery!, but so far I haven't had any real problems with inspectors. I do the same as you, and only do plumbing and electric within my abilities. But I'll be damned when I can't add a circuit or install a faucet on the vanity I just put in. Jeff
*A lot of us like the personal service that one or two man businesses can provide. Wouldn't it be possible to hire electricians and plumbers that were one or two man businesses as well? That way you were assured of more personal service, you would be dealing with a professional, and you would be free to continue doing what you do best thereby being more profitable about it.
*Amen brother!When it comes to troubleshooting a whole house, or re-wiring an entire house, I let the homeowner call in the electricians. It would take me too long, and I don't want to get that involved in the electrical. On plumbing, I basically don't do major drain work. I don't clean 'em out unless it is part of something I'm working on, and I don't replace main drain lines outside. Plumbers here are prepared for the outside drain work, and have the equipment necessary. Plus its too damn hot.I do all of the wiring and plumbing for my bath or kitchen remodels, and have never had a problem with any inspectors either.James
*The answer to that one is a no brainer. Lets see... the electrician gets $65.00 per hour here. Now I can pay him the $65.00 per hour, or I can earn the $65.00 per hour. If I do the work, the homeowner gets the better deal. They get professional, warranted work, and they get it cheaper because I am not marking up the "subbed" out electrician. Most of the one or two man shows will not even come out for a small electrical job. If they do, they have a trip fee. Since I am already on site, I can do the small job a lot cheaper. Now when we get into larger jobs, we do call in the electrical contractors. Because here we are a very industrialized region, the one and two man electrical contractors would much rather work in Industry than in residential. Industrial electrical work pays a LOT more for them.Same thing with the plumbers.James
*James and Jeff:I was just like you until about 3 weeks ago when all these guys told me how lucky I was not to be sued for burning down the good client's houses, and they mostly thought I was doing it for the purpose of saving my clients money.So, I reformed my opinion, and decided that yes, every electrical and plumbing situation would need to be handled by a licensed pro, and I would honor their well-earned right to that business in order to protect my hind end, since it is unlikely my contractor's insurance would cover me for anything on this end that was not subcontracted.I guess it's my bad luck to live here. So, I'll play by the rules.My electrician charges nearly double my rate. He can't cut a two by four.MD
*What's wrong with marking up the electrician? If you are doing as good or better a job than the average electrican, why is your time less valuable? Let's go in the other direction. Suppose you had to hand dig a ditch for a footer. Do you charge the customer a laborer rate of $10 or do you still charge your $30?Price is what perpetuates unlicensed work. As long as price is an issue for the client they will take a chance and try to save a buck. They are usually the ones that cry the loudest when it comes back to bite them!
*The fact that you have to hire the electrician, watch his work, pay him when he's through, and then charge the customer markup plus the cost of the electrician. I do it myself, am through in no time, another stranger isn't being introduced into my customers home, and the customer knows that the electrical repairs will be done correctly, and with a smile. I use a KISS system for my business, and it has eliminated almost all stress, headaches, call backs, customer relation problems, and whatever else. The KISS I use is "Keep It SUPER Simple". The less I add to a job in the way of contacts, subbing, etc... the less I have to deal with. I do the work, have a good time doing it, and make a friend for life with the customer.I live in a rural area. It is extremely rare that licenses are necessary, and even more rare for inspections. I do pull permits when required, and all of my work is very capable of passing inspection if one were to happen. I do all my work according to code. This ensures me and the customer that it is done correctly.I sometimes spend four or five weeks in a customer's home. I get to know them on a very personal level, and I make a frined for life with them. I save them money whenever I can, without them ever knowing I did, or without them complaining about price. My father taught me to do the right thing when the situation presents itself. Most of my clients are elderly, and on a fixed income (not necessarily social security, but fixed nonetheless).Again, why should I hire an electrical contractor that will only send an inexperienced kid out to do the minor work anyway? This, in my opinion, is a great disservice to my customer. I know before I call that the work will be marginal at best, and most times rather shoddy. I do it myself, collect my normal rate, and everybody is happy. As for digging footing trenches by hand... not here I wouldn't. We have two seasons - December and Summer. It stays at or above the 100 mark for almost 4 months here. No one I know would hand dig a trench in this heat. We use trench machines when necessary. Same reason I won't do roof work. Too hot, and there is no way anyone would pay me what I think working on a roof in the middle of summer here is worth. James
*My insurance covers electrical work as long as I my gross sales of electrical work don't excede 5% of my sales. I do minor work if it's part of something else (I don't take on stand alone electrical work).I'll wire the addition I build but won't take a job to install new outlets in a kitchen. The work gets inspected. The concept of requiring a licensed electrician AND requiring an inspection is overkill anyway. If an electrical license is worth anything, the work doesn't need inspections and if the work needs inspections, any idiot should be able to do it.
*To add to that Ryan,If I hire a licensed Electrician (on my payroll) and let everybody else work off of his license (allowed here in Texas), then how have I done anything whatsoever to improve the electrical work being done by non licensed electricians? All I wind up doing is paying an outrageous hourly rate to an electrican in order to use his number on legal forms and inspections. The work is still performed by non licensed workers. Heck, I do it myself and then I earn the money. My insurance covers ALL work I do, irregardless of the dollar amount or percentage. The only requirement is that I follow the building standards and codes. In 13 years, I have never had to collect on an insurance claim. This fact alone keeps my rates down around $575.00 a year for Commercial Liability. That's damn cheap for a $1 million policy!A lot of people who complain about this type of practice are GC's who do not actually do their own work. They have hired crews, or sub it all out. I, like you, do ALL of the work. I have done garages where I had a concrete contractor come out and pour the slab, but that is about it. I do all the rest, or tell the customer to call sopmeone else (like a roofer or carpet installer)) to come do that portion. Heck, I have been known to do small roofing jobs, but I ain't hiring out to do roofing only.I also do not hire out to do electrical only. I do the electrical if it is part of the job I contracted to do, or if the customer adds some electrical work while I am there. Point is, the more work I actually do, the more money I make. I cannot see hiring someone else, or subbing out the work. Then I would only be earning a percentage of the job instead of earning the whole job. This is one reason why contractors like me actually bring home more money on a job than some of the larger outfits. Simplify, simplify, simplify!Just a thought...James
*James:You are a man after me own heart. You strike right at the core of the issue: The fact is that having a license neither guarantees the knowledge of the person or the quality of their work.This whole bit about licensing and inspections while well intended originally has turned into a way to restrict the number of people who can get into a trade and a revenue source for the government. It has also become something that just reinforces the power relationship of the local government.There has never been and is today nothing that will substitute for a person who takes pride in their work and who treats their customers as real people.
*james & fredb...., ryanc... you guys are speaking from your own experience... but you are also speaking from the point of view of a rural market... and fred.. i seem to remember that you are not in the trades...my point is that if you want ot be a one man band in a rural market... then you do what you have to... if you were here in RI.. or in S. Cal. you'd sing a different tune.. licensing ...statewide building codes...uniform permitting for septic systems.. has mad my life easier....i've always done it the right way... to the best of my ability.. now.. everyone has to comply with the minimum standards.. and the consumer is the winner..and there is no restraint of trade.. if you want to be a contractor in RI... you send in the fee and your proof of liability insurance... and a statement that you either have employees or not... if you do.. you have to have a Workmen's Comp Policy too...so.. who's getting screwed /the employee.. who is now covered for job site injuries...and probably wasn't 5 years agothe homeowner... who now has a Board of Contractor's Registration he can turn to if he's dealing with a bad contractor...nope.... licensing... building codes... they're the lubricant you need when you leave a rural enviornment....b but hey, whadda i no ?
*Well it is good that you put the second line in your id cause you don't know. It is interesting that rather than challenge James, RyanC and I on the merits of the issue you challenge us. That is a time worn tactic of one who can't dispute the facts but hopes to win by attacking the messenger. Seldom has a person using this argument had the facts on their side.The issue, as it is in most of the business posts, is how to earn a living in a person's chosen field. In that regard my above post stands, as it would for most any business that requires skill. If it is a big city that means the boss has to hire people that both know and care.
*JamesIf the state of Texas were to allow one electrician to obtain a license and then let other electricians work under that license, then the law is unconstitutional. One of the basic tenets of U.S. law is that all persons of the same class (in this case electricians) be treated alike. Therefore, there must be either 100% or 0% licensing of the members of the class. Either all electricians must be licensed or no electricians can be licensed.Mike SmithA few weeks ago when I stated that contractors furnish neither labor nor materials for construction, you replied that they do and can do so with in-house trades or through subcontractors. You also mentioned Massachusetts law. I went to the University of Arizona law library and looked up Massachusetts law. The definition of subcontractor was any person who supplies neither labor nor materials and has a contract with either a contractor or subcontractor.
*You completely misunderstand.If I hire a licensed electrician, all I need on the official paperwork for a permit is HIS license number. He does not have to be the electrician that does the actual work. The law only requires a valid license number on the forms.Almost all electrical contractors here have one license, and it is the company's owner. Everyone else works off of his license number. His number goes on all permits and paperwork.Some companies hire a licensed electrician, and everyone else works off of their license. These "hired guns" as they are refered to here, make a LOT more than the rest of the electricinas in the company. The are being compensated for their license. Some make in excess of $50.00 per hour for the work that they do.It has gotten so bad here that some licensed electricians "lease" their number to companies for monetary compensation. They are not really employees of the company, but it looks like it on paper. they don't care. The work still has to pass inspection. If it doesn't pass, the GC is responsible, not the electrician.The only ones that I know of right now that actually require licensed electricians (at least their name and number) are the city of Beaumont, and the local utility company (Entergy). The utility company will not install a meter until the electrical has passed inspection, AND the city inspector has signed off. If it is a rural setting, and the city is not involved, they still require the valid electrician's number. Since I do electrical work, I could, by all rights, call myself an electrician. Since that is possible, and since I do not have to have a license, then the constitutional issue is a moot point. (Not that it was a valid assumption anyway)Mike - what we consider rural, and what you consider rural may be two different things. My area (Southeast Texas) consists of 7 counties, and 28 cities. It has a population of approximately 650,000 (according to the 2000 Census) with the largest city being Beaumont (population 115,000) Most people here live OUTSIDE of a city limit, and because of that fact alone, we are considered rural. It takes one hour to drive from farthest edge of Southeast Texas to the other. Heck, I can travel 11 miles due south, and cross 4 towns, and 3 counties. It is just the way the counties are layed out. My county (Hardin) has 46,000 people total. It has about 12 towns, and the largest of these towns has a population of 6,400. Most only have a few hundred. Most people live in the county, but not in a city. So yeah we are rural, but we still have a large population.Most of my work is outside of a city limit, so permits and licensing is not required. But... because permitting and licensing is not required, any Tom, Dick, and Harry can go into business as a contractor, and many do. The customer has no way of knowing who is experienced or not. I blame the customers on this one, because very, very few will bother to check references or past work record/projects. They just don't feel the need, or want to take the time. They get burned, and we all get a bad name out of the deal. James
*Mike, Worked for several years in the big city. In fact, I just moved back to rural America about two years ago.You're right, things are different in the city. Here in the country, inspectors and zoning officers who do their jobs on the side during the evenings after their regular factory jobs. In the big city, inspectors are full time, with offices, and staffs, and city cars. And for some reason that changes a person into a bureaucrat. So, they wanted the rules followed for the sake of the rules no matter what. Another reason is that around here, no one will put up with bureaucratic rule following that gets in the way of sense. My Township hired a new fire inspector a couple of years ago. The guy decided he was going to start doing annual inspections of farms. Showed up unexpectedly to several local farmers and demanded to see the shops, barns, etc. Told everybody to move the pesticides, have fuel tanks moved, can't park a tractor in there, gotta keep acetylene outside,...etc.Town council told him to leave the farmers alone.
*In Tennessee, a contractor license means at least a three hour test on the area of the building code specific to your license, i. e. electrical, plumbing, HVAC, residential construction, commercial, etc. It also means an additional 3 hours on a business & law test. It means a personal appearance before the governing board. It means yearly financial statements (balance sheets) to gauge your business's economic health. It means building contract limits based upon those financial statements. Contracts are limited to 10 times your working capital or net worth, whichever is less. The law allows unlicensed activity for home owners as long as they only build one house every two years. Or if its not for sale or rent. It also allows unlicensed activity if the contract amount is under $25,000. This made possible minor repairs such as painting, guttering, roofing, etc.Workman's Comp is required of all employers (licensed or not) of one employee or more.Employees can work under the licensed contractor without holding a license themselves. The law assumes that the licensed contractor oversees such work as he is held accountable in case of a problem.Licensing is another credential of minimum proficiency. The next time you catch yourself saying it is unnecessary ask yourself what would happen if they deregulated other licenses. Drivers licenses, pilot licenses, medical licenses, law licenses, insurance licenses, broker licenses, etc. None of those licenses speak as to the accumulated knowledge and experience of each license holder, that is still for the consumer to gauge and value. But it does mean some understanding of a stated minimum proficency.
*Peter, you and Mike Smith pretty much summed up my feelings. If requiring a certain level of demonstrated competency in an occupation is restraint of trade, I'm all for it. Every occupation I can think of, where public safety is concerned or their finances may be at risk, requires some combination of education, training, and testing, leading to certification, before you are allowed to practice. Except construction, where as we all know anyone with a hammer and a truck can be a carpenter, and if they figure they know a little plumbing and electricity, they're a contractor. There is nothing to prevent some weekend warrior who made it through their first house putting up a shingle and beggining to trade. I think there should be; the system Peter describes seems fair. I can't figure out why anybody who is as qualified as they claim to be would be threatened by this, but apparently many are.I still believe the best way to approach the problem (and I really don't expect to see this), is by licensing requirements at the trade level. Plumbing and electricity here are regulated trades; you cannot work at them unless you are a registered apprentice or a licensed journeyman. Everyone in the phone book, everyone I see on job sites, everyone in those trades has a minimum level of training that is basically standardised through Cannda (we do have an interprovincial journeyman certification that is now being extended to all the trades, regulated and voluntary certification). The same isn't true for carps, woodworkers, remodelers, etc., and the difference in professionalism is striking. Not that every plumber or electrician is a star, or a great business man, or whatever, but the quality level is more consistent.Apply those same rules to the carps, remodelers, and cabinetmakers, and homeowners would have a much easier time sourcing good quality work. By the way, our system of trade certification also allows for those who learned 'on the job'; they need two references from journeymen, and can then write the journeyman's test. Unfortunately, there are no requirements whatsoever to prevent anybody going into the business of contracting here.A lot of regional differences obviously come into play here. I live now in a mid sized, semi-rural regional centre (90,000). I moved here from a city of a million plus, so I've seen both sides . I have never seen unqualified 18 year old electricians and plumbers show up to a job without supervision, and I don't hink those kind of anecdotal arguements advance this debate. James; if you're insurance covers you doing that kind of work, fine: no way in hell is any tradesman in Canada covered to do work in a regulated trades area unless they are certified. The homeowners insurance is automatically voided in case of a fire or water damage, even if it can't be proven that it was the work of the unlicensed man at fault. I have no shortage of good, affordable small plumbing and electrical contractors to refer a homeowner to.I'd just like to look around this industry, and see more committed professionals, and fewer hackers, dilettantes, and wannabes. If it means raising the bar to weed out people who aren't prepared to be professional, I'm all in favour.
*I get the feeling that most of those who are responding to this discussion have no clue as to what a contractor is pursuant to U.S. law. To give a visual image, imagine an equilateral triangle with a horizontal base. Think of one corner of the base as representing electrical mechanics (journeyman electricians) who FURNISH electrical labor. Think of the other corner of the base as representing materialmen who FURNISH electrical materials. Think of the apex of the triangle as representing electrical contractors (master electricians) who PROCURE labor and materials FURNISHED by mechanics and materialmen. The electrical contractor can be either the property owner or an agent of the property owner. If the electrical contractor is the property owner, then he contracts directly with the mechanics and materialmen to furnish electrical labor and electrical materials. If the property owner employs an electrical contractor to act as his agent, then the property owner is liable for payment to any individual, partnership, corporation or otherwise who is awarded a contract to furnish electrical labor or a contract to furnish electrical materials by such agent. This same principle is the same for other trades. All mechanics lien laws and trade contractor licensing laws or trade mechanic licensing laws are based on this principle. As was stated in City of Milwaukee v. Rissling, 184 Wis. 517, 199 N.W. 61: "The council therefore, acting in its legislative capacity, duly created two classes - contractors on the one hand and journeymen on the other...The test to be applied is to ascertain whether all those included in the class are treated alike under like circumstances and conditions...In the instant case, individuals, firms, and corporations are treated alike; each is required to obtain a license, and each must file a certificate naming the person who shall be the supervisor of the work...Having treated all contractors in a class alike, the ordinance is constitutional." The case just referred to pertained to electrical contractors. However, the same reasoning would be applied to other trade contractors.
*robert.. i get the feeling that you are NOT a contractor.. you are not a tradesman.. and you ARE a strict constructionist of the cosntitution...most of what you keep trying to discuss is not germaine to the laws we deal with on a daily basis....I am licensed in Mass. and RI.. your definitions are archaic.... the mechanics lien law is usually inplemented by peopele who call themselves (((contractors))) and are thought of by the public as ((contractors))if you go back to Massachusetts and look up some more of their laws you will find that indeed ..contractors exist.. and are discussed and defined in the laws establishing the massachusetts state building code....you still haven't made clear exactly what your point is....do youwant us to stop calling ourselves contractors.. do you want us to stop writing contracts ?.. do you think all of the licensing acts of the various states are unconstitional...?...too bad... so sue me.. and the state legislators that created them....in the meantime ... you hold a decidely narrow interpretation of the laws of contracts and construction...in the courts where most of these cases are decided.. the judges would fast lose patience with you...b but hey, whadda i no ?
*Adrian,I pretty much agree with the regulating the trades, but in my situation I see absolutely nothing wrong with me doing some electrical work and plumbing work. I do not do major remodels, and I do not build homes. I REPAIR and improve homes. Sometimes that involves nothing more than removing a toilet, replacing the wax seal, and reinstalling the toilet. Plumbers here charge $300.00 to do this. I charge $45.00 to do this (if I am ALREADY at the home working on other things). If I am called out to replace the wax seal, I charge $45.00 plus a trip charge. The trip charge is determined by how far I must travel to get to the site, but the minimum is another $45.00Now how can I possibly NOT be able to do this repair? According to the die hard "licensed only" posters, I should have the homeowner call out the plumber. Again, here, the plumber would send out a kid to do this minor work, and would concentrate his most experienced people on bigger jobs. When I do the job, I make the money. This is what being in this business is all about. Whenever I sub out work, or have the homeowner call out my competitors to do this type of stuff, then I am defeating the reason I am in business. Larger remodeling contractors and such can, and do, sub out the electrical and plumbing, but again, I work on small stuff. I wouldn't dream of running all new plumbing in a bathroom addition, or kitchen addition. I will, however, install new faucets, drain line/p-trap assemblies, and shower valve hookups, as well as toilet replacements without batting an eye. I understand the need for trade regulations. As I have stated before, the bad eggs give us all a bad rep, and I work very hard to keep my reputation good. Hacks are hacks no matter how much training or licensing they have, or how little.Peter - you keep quoting laws from every state but the one we live in. Unless you are a law expert, and I doubt that you are, then you really don't have a clue as to how the various jurisdictions handle these matters. Anybody can quote case histories, but it really doesn't mean a lot when you are talking about states other than the ones we live in. Quote me some Texas statutes dealing with the definition and regulation of contractors, and we'll talk. Just a thought...James
*James, you must have me confused with someone else. As far as I know, I have only quoted how Tennessee deals with licensed contractors.By the way, a licensed residential contractor here is allowed to do small electrical and plumbing work without the need for a separate license. I believe the only caveat is that the associated work doesn't exceed $25,000.
*MikeI have been a carpenter for more than 20 years. In addition, I have 2 Bachelor of Science degrees from the University of Illinois - One in economics and the other in business administration. Additionally, I served in an engineering battallion (construction and demolition) in the U.S. Marine Corps.In Arizona where I live, the law allows a carpenter to commence work on a construction project in one of two ways - the property owner can contract directly with the carpenter (in which case the property owner acts in the capacity of carpentry contractor) or the property owner can hire an agent to act as carpentry contractor on his behalf. Since the carpenter who performs the labor is the creditor of the property owner, the property owner is liable for payment. This is all laid out in the state Mechanics' lien laws. Under Arizona law, if the property is owner-occupied residential property, the mechanic who performs the labor can only exercise a lien if he has a direct contract in writing with the property owner. If the property owner hires a contractor to negotiate contracts on his behalf, then when the property owner gives the contractor money to pay off the contract, the money is deemed trust funds and must be paid upon demand by the by the party entrusted with the funds. These trust funds cannot be used or diverted for any purpose than to pay off the property owner's creditors. In one case here in Arizona, a contractor told the court that he routinely took money, put it in the bank and then wrote checks to pay the creditors. The court of course told him that such practice is illegal because it constituted a diversion of funds. He diverted the funds to the bank.It is different for commercial property or structures for sale or rent whether residential or commercial. In those cases, the carpenter who performs the labor has a lien whether he contracted directly with the owner or whether he was awarded a contract by a carpentry contractor.
*robert... thanks for the info.. in RI none of that applies.. a lien may be placed for labor or materials.. and wether or not a written contract exists....Mass. is very similar...this is somewhat esoteric .. i do know that the contract laws vary from state to state...as do the lien laws....in each case the contractor will be well served by familiarizing himself with the pertinent laws .. and ensuring that his business plan complies with those laws.. as do his contracts and sub-contracts...i'll be real careful about contracting in Az.. i'll look to you for advice there...i'm pretty comfortable with my working knowledge of RI's laws... both from my reading , membership in our Builder's Association... the legal advisor the asscn hires.. the lobbying the asscn does ... and my own attorney.. obviously your comfort level with Arizona law is also high...do well..
*Adrian:You put your point very well and I don't think it conflicts with mine. If, in fact, the laws and regulations did certify competence and safe construction I would be all for them. Unfortunately they don't. If my memory is accurate, Breaktime has had many posts over the last year about talking with the individual inspector to see if a specific planned construction would pass.This topic alone has demonstrated that depending on where you live and on the rule enforcers there the paperwork has little or no relationship to work quality. Look at what is happening in James' case. His customers get quality work not because of the rules but because he personally demands it of himself and his employees.So as it stands today I totally understand why a property owner will go shopping for a contractor. And why the property owner considers licensing and inspection to be more of a nuisance than a help.What is funny is that this situation has gotten worse over the last 40 years in my opinion. And that is too bad.
*My apologies Peter. I have no idea why I put your name on that post. I was refering to Robert.Sorry...James
*Peter....i The next time you catch yourself saying it is unnecessary ask yourself what would happen if they deregulated other licenses. Drivers licenses, pilot licenses, medical licenses, law licenses, insurance licenses, broker licenses, etcNothing would happen...It would still be against the law to harm others and we would still go after those that did....Did you ever notice that many accicents are caused by unlicensed people??????????????near the stream,aj
*or how many are caused by licensed peopleDrivers licenses - wouldn't make a difference, ever seen anybody who couldn't get a drivers license? I've met several that had them but shouldn't have.pilot licenses - Probably the same as drivers licenses. People would practice flying with an experienced friend until they felt they could do it alone and then they would. Sort of how it is now but with less fees to pay.medical licenses - I'm glad somebody tests doctors but I don't need it to be the government.law licenses - silly idea anyway. Get rid of this license and things would be easier for everybody that ever had to go to court.insurance licenses - couldn't care if my broker has one as long as he knows his field.broker licenses - same as above
*If there is no "standard" as to what is an acceptable practice, then anything goes. Why stop at licensing contractors? Why not abolish the building code as well? "Let the buyer beware", can rule all business interactions. Just don't get caught holding the short end of the stick?
*Right on....licensing is a form of monopoly protection and price fixing....And I have had plenty a doctor that I thought less of than my auto mechanic....and one even lost his license not long after I declared he must have been abusing his drug access...I was right.near the stream and more alert the more their licensed.aj
*Great idea...no code would be better! or at least give people a choice....to go with or without code....just stamp the dead.near the freely flowing stream,aj
*Isn't it funny how all the guys advocating licensing want to make exceptions to the licensing so long as the unlicensed guy works as his employee so that he can profit from his labor. If they were really concerned about quality work and the indicator of quality work was a license, then they would only hire licensed guys.
*The biggest advantage to licences is that they keep new guys from entering the field, making contractors harder to find, driving up prices.Electricians need 5 years of apprenticeship to get a licence. That's a rediculous rule that serves to keep the number of electricians down. The learining curve for electrical work is about six months. I've never worked as an electrician, did work for a long time in facilities maintenance, and of course construction. I've learned all I know about electricity on my own, mostly from books. I've never met an electrician that had any knowledge I didn't have. I've asked a couple of electricians questions and been met by blank stares. A few may be sharper on code than I am but so what, I've got the book on my shelf and can just look it up. So, licencing electricians doesn't keep electricians knowledgable, it keeps them few.
*Don't count me in that. I don't employ a lot of people, but everyone I have had with me is a graduate of a trade school, and is putting in apprenticable hours towards journeyman status. And if I need carpenters for some aspect of a job, they are all licensed too. That isn't even a conscious decision; every good carpenter I know here takes the trade seriously enough that he went through the same system I've been talking about.
*come on ryan.. you're a smart guy..with an engineering degree.. for you to take yourself as a good example of why electricians don't have to be licensed is a big stretch..1 reason they do have to be licensed AFTER being examined and pass the rigid testing is because they don't have to go back to the shop and look it up as often as you do...they lead and educate the APPRENTICES.. at least they do with the twenty or so Electrical Contractors I've been associated with..the system works well.. and they don't have a lot of problems electrocuting themselves, their co-workers, or the public..one RyanC.. does not a general rule make...and that is no put down...
*Many, many Ryan C's out there Mike...myself and every person I know who does electric work around here including the kid I helped the other day install a new 200a service...yes he had learned here and there the rule of one hand in the box, coat the aluminum connections with alox and more...in fact his work was as good as mine....maybe we are just getting lucky or maybe it's not that big a deal!!!Oh and the only person I remember getting killed by electricity in our town was a few years ago an b electrician.He was working on our local baseball scoreboard and drilled into some real live stuff I think...Not sure how it actually bit him but I do have my Milwaukie angle drill metal head wrapped in tons of electric tape for just that reason...So far so good thank fully.near the electron streamsaj
*so... just as i thot.. it is still rainin there...thanks fer sharin AJ.. i'll add you to the list of well rounded individuals who are the exception to the rule....the average carpenter has no business working inside the circuit panel on someone else's house....never mind the average homeowner...
*Mike,thanks for the compliment but I wasn't fishing. And I disagree. I think the general population is pretty smart. Certainly not everyone is qualified to be an electrician but I bet there are ten times as many non-electricians that could do the work right as there are electricians.I will admit that my biggest reason for opposing licensing is my "get the government out of my back yard" attitude. Licensing has probably kept someone somewhere safe but that's just not enough to justify having the governments hands in it to me.And I have trained alot of maintenance staff in electricity, most who had never done any before at all. I've turned out some really good mechanics. The mechanically inclined population can learn it in less than five years without a license.
*RyanTo back you up here is a statement from the Arizona Supreme Court in a licensing case requiring licenses of supervising electricians:"Again, why are applicants limited to journeymen with six years experience or the equivalent thereof? Six years experience as a master electrician conceivably would do as much to qualify the applicant as six years experience as a journeyman electrician. Self education by experience, especially if a person is mechanically and scientifically minded, is often equal or better than that under tutorage."City of Tucson v. Stewart, 45 Ariz. 36, 40 P2d 72, 96 A.L.R. 1492
*When I joined this discussion, I was of the opinion that the homeowners were the source that perpetuated the problem of unlicensed contractors by shopping for the lowest price. While I still believe that is the case, I now believe that it's not the "only" reason. Judging by this and the other "licensing" thread, I've now come to the opinion that our peers are as much to blame.The discussion has deeply polarized individuals on both sides. The ones against licensing feel that they are doing nothing wrong. That they are "free" to act in whatever responsible way they see fit. In fact, they feel that licensing infringes on their basic freedoms. I'll agree that a piece of paper doesn't make a better man, or in our case, a higher calibur of contractor. But neither do I think that that's it intent. Most regions that have adopted licensing, have done so as a form of consumer protection. (And if you agree with the homeowner as being resposible for the problem to begin with, this is ironic. The law is then to protect them from themselves.) You have to admit, it's finanically cheeper for an unlicensed contractor to compete against one that is licensed. Licensed contractors don't mind the competition, they just want an even playing field. If the consumer is going to cry for protection (from themselves) and we are going to create laws to provide that protection, then it is up to all of us to work within the framework of those laws or work to have them repealed. And while we're at it, there's this little law called income tax that I could live without. You think we could work on it as well?
*Unlicensed contractors do not save money on the stupid license...It's a tiny fee....Less expensive contractors cut corners or value their time at a lower fee, or pay their help cash, or hire the whole family and value all their time as their on a church picnic making friends..Most definitely are working their business cash flow and accounting by the size of the wad of green backs in their pocket verses how much gas it takes to drive over to the Seven Eleven for more cigs and beer...and disposable diapers and grape juice for the kid that cries too much...Oh and a couple of left over dollars toward the most pressing bill, "the light & heat bill"....Near the stream,aj
*hmmmm.. still rainin , huh ?overcast but stopped here , probably get to play golf tonight in the league..
*PeterSince a plumbing contractor is merely the person who orders the plumbing labor and plumbing materials for a project, the licensing is just to ensure that the person knows how to order them. If a certain model of bathtub is required or a certain style of faucets, the licensing ensures that you know how to pick up a telephone and call in the order. It ensures that you also know how to pick up a phone and call a plumber to do the work. The states who have licensing requirements for plumbing contractors have deemed that this is a dangerous occupation (ordering plumbing labor and materials) and therefore require licenses of plumbing contractors. The same holds true for all other trade contractors (electrical, mechanical, etc.). If the state determines that it is dangerous to the public health and safety to order labor and materials, then they impose licensing requirements.The interesting thing to me is that most states that have licensing of trade contractors, the work done by the mechanics is not considered harmful so they do not require licenses of the mechanics. It is the ordering of the labor and materials that is considered dangerous to the public health and safety, not the actual construction.Other states who do not have contractor licensing feel that it is not that dangerous to know how to phone in an order. Instead, they require a license of the plumber or electrician who does the work, on the ground that it is the work that must be regulated and poses a greater danger. Other states require licenses of both plumbing contractors and plumbers or of both electrical contractors and electricians. As you can see, the occupation of plumber and the occupation of plumbing contractor are 2 different occupations. The same goes for electricians and electrical contractors, et cetera.The only real issue concerning licensing is that the state or city treat all persons of the same occupation equally. Many statutes and ordinances have been held unconstitutional simply because not all members of the occupation were required to undergo examinations and pay fees for licenses. A basic tenet of our legal system is that there must be either 0% or 100% of the members of the occupation who must be licensed.
*Robert, in Tennessee licensing is required of "contractors" and contractors are defined as all individuals that do work in excess of $25,000. Below that threshold you don't need a license.AJ, your right of course. The license doesn't necessitate professionalism. There was an article in today's paper about a licensed contractor that scammed some folks in Delaware and while the case was pending trial, came here to Tennessee and took three more couples before getting caught again. He faces 6 years in jail and $175,000 in restitution. And that's just on the Tennessee charges!
*May the bastard get his with a new "boyfriend in the clink"...near the stream, lovin it when the worst get theirs...aj
*All this rain and todays hot...so we are going tubing!!!! I did pressure wash a court today too and went on some sales calls and did some return calls selling more too.... & volleyball tonight..Having a great day so far, near the stream,ajBring those club have way up to Lake George and we'll smack a few balls someday Mike...
*Seems to me the only answer is to go back to the time when everyone built their own home. In those days a man's quality was judged on how well built a home he built for his wife. His morals were judged by his woodpile. A straight, neat woodpile meant an upstanding man.That would leave commercial structures to the pro's. Then they could solve the problems among themselves as the old European Masons did. The Guild system worked wonders and operated almost without government intervention.
*fredb.... the only time in history that man consistently built his own home.. was when his wife built it...while he was out hunting.. the women , collectively , would erect the teepees..other that the rude cabin in the woods.. homebuilding has always been a collective ,organized activity...here, in the new world, the larger structures were built by the master builder, who designed and built the project, and employed all of the trades...this has devolved into the current basis of architects and general contractors...and woodpile, straight or not, morality and ethics are still important....
*morality and ethics....So the world and the future are quite unpredictable.....but you want it to be...As a good Pied Piper and alpha male, you steer others toward being more predictable by preaching morality, ethics and all...You get a puplit to add to your towering figure, then a grand building to add resonance, then you and your followers denounce those that don't drink the kool aid....Are moralities and ethics good or bad?...are they a perfect predicter of future human behavior?...Priests with little boyfreinds?near my own stream and setting my ethics as I wixh when I wish just like everyone does...and probably higher than many for those that judge...aj
*aj.....(((You get a puplit to add to your towering figure))gregory peck... the seamen's bethel, new bedford..preaching to the congregation of whalers before going out hunting for mobey dick....basic morality play ,, eh ?
*Just keep in mind, some of us "unlicensed contractors" live and work in areas that don't have licensing. In my area, the point is moot. No such deal. There are licensed electricians and licensed plumbers. And there are permits required and inspections to be passed. If my electrical work is good enough for the local electrical inspector, and the building inspector ok's my plumbing and carpentry work, exactly what would we be protecting the homeowner from. I don't think anyone here is talking about drunken wiring and duct-tape plumbing. Jeff
*Jeff makes a valid point. All three states I worked in required licensing and permitting. Of course In Chicago, most permits were never pulled unless they were huge jobs. Even then, it was so corrupted, $50 to the inspector and everything was great. In those cases and the areas where no licensing is required, only the integrity and knowledge of the contractor determined the outcome of the project.There are obviously wierd and rediculous statutes, like in Peter's area where a license is not needed unless the amount exceeds $25,000. I can do one hell of an amount for under $25,000 that just might kill someone, tradesman, homeowner, or guest. That would include rewiring and entire house.Florida as a few similar weird ones like that as well.
*Not a big reader of the "Mobey Dick" stuff....But I do like to go to Seaworld...Near the stream but headin to the ocean soon!aj
*Sonny you get right to the point I have been making right along: Quality construction is guaranteed by the person doing the work. There is such a long history of inept inspection, corrupt inspectors, fly-by-night contractors, etc that only the most naive could take the postion that licensing/inspection translates into quality work.Now, Adrian and I have both made posts about what is in essence the old guild system. If you wanted to work you got training that did more than teach the skills. After all, in the grand scheme of things building skills are really not all that tough. They taught the apprentice the ethics and pride of doing a good job. What is most important is the mind set of the builder.Without that mind set licensing, inspection, trade union rules, etc just become restraints of trade to drive up prices instead of the quality control they should be.
*Here is my favorite. At the end of the statutes or ordinances requiring licenses, the proviso that all the illegal and invalid portions shall not be enforced but all the rest that is not illegal and invalid shall stand.If the lawmaking body knows that portions of the law are unconstitutional, why enact those portions?
*One of the big problems where I live is not the licensing of contractors but enforcement of the contractor statutes by the registrar of contractors.When a license is issued, it is issued in the name of the individual who qualified for the license. That individual is called the qualifying party. Under the statutory law, the qualifying party has a duty to be present at the job site to act as site supervisor on all projects where the licensee is a contractor.One time I photocopied an article out of a publication called "Southwest Contractor" in which a GC from our state stated that 5 superintendents were assigned to a school construction project. When I showed this to the registrar of contractors, I asked if all five of these individuals were the qualifying party for the license and of course since there can be only one supervisor per license the answer was no.I then asked what was going to be done about this and the answer was nothing; that the registrar's office was not interested in doing anything about it. By the way, in the state where I live, the registrar can impose a fine of up to $2500 per day upon any individual supervising construction who is not named as a qualifying party on a contractor's license. A $2500 per day fine can also be imposed on a licensee who employs a supervisor who is not named as the supervisor on their license. As a taxpayer, it is in my best interests if these fines were imposed. The state would make billions of dollars in revenue. In 17 years of working as a tradesman in this state, I have never seen a person who qualified for a license on a construction project. Nor has any tradesman I know ever seen a person who qualified for a license on a construction project. I guess if everybody knows there will be no enforcement of the law, there need not be compliance with the law.
*So what's your motivation in all your pointing out this apparent lack of law enforcement...Where do you see this knowledge adding pleasure-filled time me of you in the long run Mr. A?near the stream interested in the action angle,aj
*Or, they could fine every contractor in your state, construction costs would go up to cover the fines, it would cost more to build the supermarket, the supermarket would have to charge more for apples, you'd end up paying for the fines anyway. You can't increase the cost of doing business without the consumer eventually paying for it.Let it be. I'll never understand people who get all hot and bothered about this rule and that regulation. I know that to the 9-5, trying to look busy crowd, business is the bad guy but as Abraham Lincoln said "You can't help the wage earner by hurting the wage payer."Of course, posting as Anonymous, you're either too much of a coward to take the stand anyway and your story is made up, or you're one of the regulars just trying to get a fight started.AJ: when you run for president, you got a place for me in the cabinet?
*Housing or Defense is yours buddy...near the stream, looking at Adirondack Motifs and wooden china for the White House,ajAnd a T1 line or two!
*I'll take defense, I've been wanting to show these rowdy Canadians who's boss for awhile now.
*First thing I need ya to do is close the borders to Molson importation!near the stream,aj
*Stamp the deed also.near the stream,aj
*I Georgia, there is no liscensing of general contractors. Do you think more consumers are injured or killed in states where this is the case? Do you think reputable contractors still bitch about losing work to the guy in the beater truck with a ten year old circular saw and a 4 foot level with only one working vial. Damn right they do. Liscensing is only one more way that big brother gets into our business and pocketbooks. Reputable contractors with integrity will do more for the industry than liscensing laws ever will. went fishing one time near a stream!
*hey, cracker,... how does this follow ?((Reputable contractors with integrity will do more for the industry than liscensing laws ever will. ))How does the customer know which ones are which ? And what recourse does the customer have if they wind up with one of the others..?b enquiring minds want to know ...
*Mike...normal recourse is to not get burned twice.near the stream using those that I check to do be doing work I like for those I like,aj
*Mike-Buyer beware. Liscensing or no lisencing, a prudent customer will do his or her homework before committing to any contractor. I don't see how a license will ever change a bad person into a good person. I also fail to see how a license keeps non-licensed individuals from working. When I was building in Florida, there were many homeowners pulling permits for non-licensed individuals to work on their homes. I don't get it. Sure, it is easier to get started, but it is no easier to build a business and reputation and make it in this business.
*tom.. ya know how you hate waiting in line at Home Depot behind a bunch of pepole who have no idea what they're doing?well... one of the lines that moves A LITTLE faster in RI is at the building inspector's office...no license . no permit...and the homeowner's can still pull their own.. but if they do that to circumvent the law.. they can't come back on the guy who did the work...they can register complaints against any registered contractor.. and the complaints will be investigated..every year they revoke a few licenses..so, it's a small hurdle... but it all helpsme.. 15 years without licensing... now ten years with... i like it....
*Exclusionary...non-chaordic or capitalistic in nature...Think of the commercial now...."It's not natural..."near the chaordic stream,ajMan created rules, that do not follow nature's rules, are always circumvented. There will always be unlicensed people working illegally. It's the nature of nature...
*Monopoly...nature...and licensing....Any monopoly benefits???I think so...near the streamaj
*whoa... jackie... ya threw me a curve on that one..((non-chaordic ) do i have to ask what the hell that means ???that wouldn't be non-chaotic wud it ?
*Chaordically near the stream,ajsearch button time?
*In Florida, an owner can pull a permit but he still must use licensed subs, and that only applies to residential zoned buildings. In Condos, zoned commercial, an owner cannot pull a permit and act as his own GC. I've been told it's because of the use of metal studs, precast slabs, tension cable construction and other types of construction used specifically in condos. They have had unlicensed guys cutting a slab floor on a 7th floor for example and cutting thru a cable. Same thing with unlicensed contractors cutting thru a bar joists, removing a section of a rafter, etc. So, I can understand their rationale and concerns. The owner of a building with 2 stores called me today to build two, 50 partition walls front the front to the back to make the 2 stores into 4, and only build the walls to the suspended ceiling. As we were talking about it he mentioned I just had to buy an "armfull" of 2x4s and "slap" up some 1/2" drywall. I politely notified him those "2x4s" had to be metal, the drywall had to be 5/8" and electric had to be done to those new walls to meet code, and those new walls had to go up to the roof - about 14" up, for a fire stop between the new stores. I passed on the job. During the conversation it became obvious he was a bottom feeder.As stated here before, some owners deserve what they get - and then some.
*