We are having a home built using ICF in the lower level (basement). The walls were recently poured and it appears to me (I am definately not a contractor) the walls are a little out of kilter! Should they be laser like straight? It seems to me if your foundation walls are not exactly straight ( to what level of precision I dont know) your house cant be straight?? Clue me in please! Also, if it is “not right” whats the best way to bring it up with gc…as they are set to start framing Monday? I am not accusing him of anything, but if it is crucial for these walls to be straight and they arent I sure as heck dont want to pay for them to be ripped out and replaced. ALL OPINIONS WELCOME AND NEEDED!!
Thanks Bob
Replies
They should be plumb, straight, and square within about a half inch.
We normally make corrections as we set the floor frameing, but if uit is left with erroros, things will quickly compound with interest all the way to the ridge. The built floor must be square, straight and level within a quarter inch or less, IMO
You can find other opinoins though too.
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Piffin is correct as usual. Straight and square it must be, and if the concrete isn't, the wooden sills have to be adjusted so that they are.
Get a piece of string and use that to judge the straightness of the walls. Pull the string from one end of a wall to the other and pull it tight. Put a scrap of wood under each end of the string so that it's spaced out from the wall. Use the same thickness of wood at each end. Then, measure at various points along the string and see if the distance to the wall is consistent. If it were me writing the checks then I'd get a copy of the foundation plan for the house and make notes on it, indicating all the variations from straight that exist.
Are the same guys doing the framing, or did your contractor sub out the concrete work?
The same guys are indeed doing the framing...they work for the gc and he is onsite....how should I bring this up? Directly and aggressively or ///hey the wall looks a little off what do you think??Thanks
How far off are they? And over what distance?
If negligable, I would ignore it.if unacceptqable, I'd ask, "How do you plan to fix this messup here?"
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The limits that Piffin mentioned are right on. It isn't hard to get a concrete wall as close as that.
Having said that, and not knowing anything about the actual installation, some things might not need to be fixed at all. If the top of the wall is good and straight and reasonably plumb, you can build on up and backfill the problem. Sure, it'll show on the inside, but you can sometimes fix that with a large foam rasp. Many ICF brands will allow you to take off 1/2" of foam before you touch the webs.
If the top of the wall is the problem, cutting foam away might still solve the problem. Get your string on it and a good level and tell us what you see.
Ron
It's hard getting info on this one about how bad it is.I've had top work on one three inches out of square more than once
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If you are doing a walk out basement with the ICF's it will be a little problem. If you do have a walkout, the sills need to be brought in the thickness of the sheathing over the walkout. That way, when you flip your walls up, the foundation and the framing is flush, and you can side right on up without having to pad anything out.
If it's just a regular foundation, SLAM IT UP THERE!
Rob Arnold
The builder I work for used ICF's on a job once and swore he would never use them again. He said it was a real pain to get them straight and that they moved during the pour. I have no personal experience with them but could this be an inherent problem with the product? Just a thought.
The inherent problem is with people who think they can ignore the instructions and pour any old way. The forms need to be carefully tied and stabilized before the pour.
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And to pour in lifts all around the form . Not dump in one corner fill it to the top and hope it makes it around the other side. I've seen that crap too often. A lot of people get POed when you tell them that they ARE going to pour in lifts no more than 4 ft. at a time .
I think that a lot of ICFs should be braced a lot better than the instructions indicate.
I've only seen a few ICF houses here in NC - or at least only a few that were under construction that I could check out closely. None were straight. Not saying that that is the norm, but what I am saying is that doing ICF, from my limited experience, is harder than it looks. The walls move around when filled with concrete unless they are braced extremely well.
Few foundations are really perfect. It is common practice for the framer to have to adjust for foundations errors - generally less than an inch, although walls are generally pretty straight. One thing that no one has yet mentioned is the exterior cladding can be used to hide errors, depending on what the cladding is. For example, it it were a stone veneer, the errors could likely be completely hidden.
And as said above, it all depends on how much it is off. If it is less than a 1/2" here and there, I wouldn't give it a second thought although it still needs to be dealt with. If it's over an inch, a game plan needs to be formulated.
While keeping in mind that no house is perfect, I think you need to bring it up a soon as possible, but in a tactful manner - something that I'm not that good at... It will be in the crews best interest to get things straightened out in the early stages of framing, otherwise they will just be making it hard on themselves especially when it comes to framing the roof system. If a house is all out of wack, every rafter will have to be custom fit, or, if it is trusses, the trusses may not fit too well, and then the plywood may not line up that well.
Edited 12/13/2004 10:14 pm ET by DIRISHINME
ICF walls do move around when they're poured. You straighten them after the pour. You make certain the walls are leaning in a bit when you're filling them because the bacing will never pull the walls in. You can push them out, though.
Is it harder than it looks? I don't know. It never did look easy to me to pour concrete into foam forms and expect it to hold.
Ron
Why would they lean only one way?
I've done a couple of ICF jobs. If you pay attention and care just a little bit, it's not hard to keep them plumb, level, straight and square. I think carpenters do better with ICFs than traditional foundation guys, though. ICFs are fussier than regular forms, and can't be approached with the slam it, pour it mindset that a lot of concrete guys have.
That said, I haven't yet framed on a foundation of any sort that was perfect. You make it up with the mudsills. A little overhang here, a little foundation showing there, and pretty soon you're back to a regular geometric figure.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
Cloud,
If the walls are leaned in a little when you pour, you can straighten them out before the concrete cures. The braces will push the walls out to plumb easily. Child's play. String and level, just like a wooden house.
If the walls are leaned out or if they move out during the pour, you are fooked. The braces are fastened to the ICF forms with a screw or two in every course into the plastic webs. If you try to pull the walls in with the braces to straighten them, you will just pull the screws out or warp the webs. It doesn't work, so, you start with a little bit of tilt inward, maybe a half inch over the height of a wall. Obviously, you can't do that in the corners, but they stay pretty well where they are put anyway.
You can take out waves in the walls between the braces by grabbing hold of the top of the wall and swaying it to and fro a few times a bit harder in the direction you want than the other way. It looks pretty hairy. You don't go crazy on it. It works, though. That technique doesn't seem to work for me with walls leaning out at the braces, maybe just because I'm afraid to give it much room to sway in.
Ron (ICF fan)
It is easier to push than to pull but it all depends which side your braces are on
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True enough, though I hope you never have to brace the outside.
In my experience it is nearly impossible to pull a wall full of fresh poured concrete. I almost lost a two foot high lintel a couple of years ago which I hadn't braced well enough. We managed to pull that back in almost straight but that was all we could do. If it had been much bigger than two feet high, it would have gone over the side.
Here's how we saved it; you'll see it wouldn't work with anything big. We took a five foot piece of 10M (3/8") rebar and bent a hook in the end. We drove that through the wall from outside and put a stick oif 2 x 4 in the hook, pulled tight against the outside of the wall. I tied a rope on the end of the rebar (a rolling hitch) took the rope through the subfloor, around a joist and back up above the subfloor, then through a trucker's hitch in the rope near the rebar, back around the joist and back up. Then I had what amounted to a four part tackle, so I took up slack. Hauling in that lintel was all we could do, myself and a large former fisherman. We burned the rope with the friction.
Ron
I'll remember that rrick.BTW, I pour one friday - exterior bracing. Want pictures?
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BTW, I pour one friday - exterior bracing. Want pictures?
Yes we do. Before, during and after if possible.
Bob, how did the foundation situation turn out?jt8
I spoke with the guy "in charge" of the project and he did not hesitate at all when I asked him about the straightness of the walls. He said yes they are bowed a little but that wont have any ill effects either structurally or visually. The exterior will be backfilled and the interior wouldnt be noticable. How does this seem to you? Do I need to probe a little more as to why he answered this way or are his repsonses good enough??
Thanks
Bob,
We need numbers in order to assess whether he's right. Another factor is the interior arrangement. If a bad line is broken by a partition, it might be of no consequence.
Piffin,
I just poured a second storey a week ago. I've been trying to find the time to put up some pictures of the project from the beginning but I don't seem to be able to. Good luck with it. Brace the hell out of it.
Ron
Lots of folks have taken their time to answer your questions here, but you haven't responded with any actual measurements of the problem. Three inches out of line or three eighths? Stuff like that... we need that info to comment on whether you should accept the job.
I have before and forming shots in the camera now. You might need to remind me to post this in a couple of weeks. I pour friday ( ws going to be wednesday but temps dropped near zero and the batch plant chickened out on me) then I meet with other customers on a final saturday, then leave sunday AM for vacarion till end of year.. Still have an insurance report to get out too.What is the other foundation you were speaking of? The footers for this one? They were quite a trick, 'cause of lots of uneven ledge to form over.
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Piffin,
I hope your pour went well. It's such a huge relief to get it full of mud, isn't it? It's the culmination of a lot of work and effort.
Ron
it is in now, for the long run.Turns out we didn't need much bracing except at the door openning. We had enough internal ties that it held together fine
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BTW, here is the "before" excavation of the spot
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What's the existing house standing on?
LOL
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When we moved into this house it was joists layed across 6x6 girders on 6x6 posts about 12" long each, standing on flat fieldstones set flush with grade. All the older houses here are that way, some using stumps instead of posts or stones. There was no source of concrete so they did what they could.
Would the cost-no-object fix in your case be a perimeter foundation? Out here where the earth sometimes moves suddenly... those brick columns give me a fright!
Post more pics are you add on.
As you may have noticed, some of those brick piers are setting right on ledge. Actually, all are, but some at 16" and others at six feet down.Therre was no crete here when these places were built either. It was batched with lime and beach sand ( salt and all) so it didn't last long.
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Blech. Piers are fine for porches, but I'd rather stick with a reinforced poured concrete basement.
Which pic shows ledge? Ledge as in sitting on rock?
jt8
every bit of this place has it's feet on solid ledge.
There was one of these photos that showed a pair of brick piers with no footing even because the l3edge was near level and only about 16" below the sill beam.
photo labeled mud slab has footings of new AARX wall stepped four of five places up over ledge, and the soil showing where no slab is poured, is all ledge - the same location before jackhammer is labeled before
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Bob,I'm glad you've found it to work out okay. I've done some ICF's and even with extraordinary care and bracing, some walls can get a bulge here, a wave there, but the final product is what is important, and there is a fair amount of leeway in what can be done.Don't be afraid to ask your builder questions as you go. What I didn't like much were guys that snuck around and got all kinds of "help" from the internet and then came to me with claims that didn't really pertain, and wasted a lot of time explaining that they had gotten misled.I guess everything works both ways but I don't like an element of mistrust.Good luck and merry Christmas,Dog
Appreciate the reply. I noticed you are in Wisconsin, where about? What type of work do you specialize in? Good tidings to you!
Remodeling. I work for a Kitchen and Bath company. I used to build new houses and do a lot more woodworking.I'm near Madison but also do as much as I can in Vilas County. Where are you? What kind of ICF system did you use? I'd like to see what other comments you may have about it.Merry Christmas,Dog
Edited 12/21/2004 6:54 pm ET by Mad Dog
I am the homeowner, so am unsure the type of icf used I think Phoenix but not certain. Located in Winona...Se Minnesota. Got any kitchen suggestions or hints for us? We are responsible for the cabinet allowance and have an island (5' x 7') we are struggling a little with in how to arrange cabinets....any suggestions are appreciated!
Are you planning to have a sink in it?Cooktop? I guess one idea straight up would be to plan for some outlets, so maybe allow space for them and the cables if possible. Will the Island be used for seating/eating or just food prep?Lately a lot of people seem to like pendant lighting over islands. There're a lot of cool lights if you want a trendy look. What type of tops are you looking at?The ICF's I installed were different than the blocks. I have no experience with styro blocks or rastra. We used a panelized system, 12" wide panels with steel supports. It had a lot of very good features but was slow to put up, and hard to keep straight. I used enough 2x6's and plywood to build a decent sized house just to brace those walls for the pour, though I sort of overkilled it, as usual.Anyway, it worked out quite well. The ICF's are really cozy, and deathly quiet inside. The last one I built had an ICF basement and main floor too. 9 and 10 foot ceilings. Basement pour was 8" thick. Concrete and pump cost me $7k.Cheers,Dog
Bob: I did ICF walls for my first floor. Got them pretty darned straight. Also plumb - and level. I (and my wife) are rank amateurs, but a little TLC got what we needed for the sills plate, over 10 ft up from the footings, to come close enough to the outer surface of the foam that it didn't matter, and the sills are square. A worse problem than out of square ICF walls was 2X8 PT lumber that wasn't straight.
I would say that this is a problem between you & the CG, and no one else. He contracted to meet certain specs & standards, and you, as the Director of Quality Assurance for the owner, have a right to discuss anything you think is out of whack. He owes you a polite discussion on any subject you choose to bring up - as long as it is rational & courteous. After all - you are providing the money. The discussion should be out of earshot of all employees - preferably after they have gone home or before they get there. Take the tack of Inspector Columbo - You don't know or understand something that looks like it isn't right, and you want him to educate you.
Good luck!
Don
Such a tactfull sweet post. I could learn something from you
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Oh, Great Screw Guru: Glad you liked my answer - I think. But - I'm not sure that I liked the answer the ICF contractor gave. Smacked a lot of the old Jimmy Carter comedic line - "Trust me, I've been raising peanuts on this farm for 20 years." Too much like smoke & mirrors and not a darned thing specific. Which would have really gotten old Columbo going w/ further questions. All of them low key & punctuated w/ his cigar.Cheers, and a merry, frozen Maine Christmas to you. Just hope it will be warmer there than predicted for here in Etlanner on Monday.DonThe GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!
Bob, if you have brick veneer, you most likely are plenty straight enough. If you are going to cover the ICF wall with a siding, then they will have to hang their mudsill out to the farthest poing and shim all the other siding to it.
All of this is normal carpentry. Poured Foundations are not normally perfect and most are finished using variety of methods that will hide the imperfections.
Keep us posted.
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
this is late
I have helped on many ICF homes
The top of the wall should be right on, all of the wall should. But we alsways braced and shot for the top of the wall to be right on.
But say a 9' high basement wall, the ICF is going to bulge or wave a little midspan
is this always the case, no. it also depends on how the job was bid. there is lots of things that can be done to hold it straight. a wiggle wire every other course. uprights halfr the recomended distance.
I love ICFs, just big old legos. Built the way the reps say its fast and easy. but wavy gravy
Built to be totally straight, almost as much time as a standard poured wall
however, I have seen standard basement walls ( including one we are working off of now, we did not do it) that is a nightmare. 3/4 inch our of level in 20 feet and out of square by nearly the same.
so it all depends on the sub and his quality and the price bid.
But I would want the top of walls, top plate, to be right on the money
Thanks for the reply! Did get out and measure the wall and the top plate was indeed virtually right on. Then proceeded to go corner to corner on the first floor, which is framed now and it indeed was right on square!! Anything else I need to do?? Thanks again to all.