The saga continues.
Some of you may recall my earlier thread:
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=108758.1&redirCnt=1
To recap, after the fight over the crooked field pattern, the contractor called up Monday August 25 and said he was wrong, would fix the crooked lines and wanted to complete the job. Of course I said ok, not being interested at all in lining up another guy. The lines got fixed (photo below I hope) and the walk looks great.
He then completed 90% of the walk from the house to the garage and then went to the driveway at the street.
Herein lies the rub. First, he had to remove two concrete slabs. One was 10’X40′ and for that 400SF he quoted $300. For the second one the price was buried in the driveway paving proposal so I don’t know what he figured but the last 12’X13′ section turned out to be greater then 7″. Some of it was 10″ thick, most about 8″ thick. No problem, I figured an extra was coming. Unknown conditions and all. Anyway, he quoted $312 for the extra concrete. I simply made the question of how could he have a $300 quote for a whole 400SF slab and then 150SF of 1″-3″ thicker concrete was more. He responded that “the price is the price”. I felt a little bit like I was being gouged. And no laborer hours were provided.
Next, I wanted the drive near the street (it’s about 23′ between the pole and the street in the photo) to be 13′ wide instead of the 12′ he said he figured. I figured on an extra and he said it would be $25/sf. His bid was $19.09/SF for the drive so I asked why we can’t use that number. Again, he said “The price is the price” and I could either pay it or settle for a 12′ drive. My choice.
Thought about it for an hour, getting the ever increasing feeling I’m being ripped off. While the price differences where relatively small, I just thought the guy was running up the prices. And he still had the lawn and landscaping to go
So I asked him to leave. What I have to sort out is the % of the drive that’s completed. The drive in the photos is about 41′ from the garage to the street, 12′ wide (or 13′) at the pole (14′ from the street) and widening to about 20′ wide at the garage.
As you can see (hopefully, if I uploaded correctly) most has the gravel but not all. There’s some digging left to be done, sand on top and of course all of the pavers with the paver cutting at the edges and cleanup.
So, what % of the drive do you all think is completed?
Thanks for the help guys. This has been amazing. 40+ subs and no real problems and now this guy.
Runnerguy
Replies
I'm not gonna answer your Q about % of completion. The thing is, like it or not, you are likely gonna have to pay his price or get a lien put on your property, or go to court. AND.... it looks like his material is on your site. Expect to pay him to remove it at his price, or buy it for his price. The brick and block companies I deal with charge 30% restocking fees.... I'm kinda doubting this guy wants to put that material "in stock" at his house....
A few additional comments:
1) Concrete removal: I have a CHEAP concrete guy and he charges ~ $3 a sq foot to remove 4" concrete. Haul away is extra, above and beyond that. The general rule of thumb is that it costs the same for labor to remove as it costs for labor and materials to install. Now that the price of readi-mix concrete is up this formula may be a little out of wack. Removing 8" concrete is at least twice as much - or more. The reason being that it's maybe 3x as time consuming to break out 8" concrete as it is 4" concrete. Unless the guy happens to have a hammer hoe. ;-) In your case, I'd expect to pay at least $300 just to have the 400 sq feet of concrete hauled away - never mind breaking it out... Something is wrong there. You live in Annapoli$. More expensive than where I live...
2) The back walk looks nice. Curves are nice. They look artistic. A little wavy on the edge pavers, but generally looks very nice.
3) Regarding him wanting a higher price PSF for adding 1' wide of driveway, sometimes you have to deal with that stuff when working with subs. His additional cost per SF for the additional pavers may have had something to do with delivery fees - for 1 or 2 cubes... Firing a sub mid-job is a last resort. Now you are likely going to have to pay someone even more $$$$ to come and finish and there is going to be at least a several week delay unless you can find someone who has no work (I wonder why someone would have no work?). Sometimes you have to swallow your pride, just to get the job done. You can let them know you won't use them again after the job is complete. You should have at least let him finish the pavers. It doesn't sound like you do this stuff a lot.... Is this your house?
RE: "Thought about it for an hour, getting the ever increasing feeling I'm being ripped off. While the price differences where relatively small, I just thought the guy was running up the prices." This stuff happens to me sometimes too. It's a great time to take a chill pill - you know - practice some of those stress management techniques - Squeeze ball - go home and work out on the speed bag.... go to the shooting range... whatever...
Edited 9/7/2008 5:36 pm ET by Matt
Thanks Matt for your thoughtful reply. I have the materials on site covered. Fortunatly he had to provide me with all material receipts upon delivery so I know exactly what those are. He's definatly got that money coming, no question. In % completion I was just refering to labor.
I know concrete removal is expensive but the thing of it is, of the four guys I got bids from, this guy was second highest. And no one here is a "fly by night" oufit. All reputable companies, or so I thought.
I know the downside of firing a sub. This is the third house I've built and I've only fired one other sub, the drywall guy in the middle house. With everyone else, when there's differences, it's been worked out because I've recognized the downside of getting a new guy.
Thanks again Matt.
This is in Maryland. Call MHIC and let them negotiate a settlement.
That's what they are there for.
I know the story about the walk, but judging by the photo I think I would have like to see things work out.
I feel that you are being a bit difficult in picking apart his pricing.
If a 2 egg omlet is $4.50 and a 3 egg omlet is $7.00, are you going to talk to the manager and ask how he came up with the pricing?
And you know the 2 egg omlett is good.............
I just think that by the time you get someone else there to hopefully do a decent job, it will end up costing you more in the long run.
Don't forget to include the value of your time in this equation.
[email protected]
I would not have argued about the extra demo cost. Seems like a reasonable cost to dig it up, break into small pieces, load, haul to the dump, etc.
So I asked him to leave. You "fired" him? Wow, sounds like something I would have done, then regretted it later. Looks like theres a fair amount of skilled labor involved in setting those pavers. Enough skill that you want someone who is happy with the deal he has, so he will want to do a good job. If you beat him down in price, his attitude will suffer, and so will your driveway.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
"Thought about it for an hour, getting the ever increasing feeling I'm being ripped off."
You are the reason why I hate remodeling.
Do me a favor...drive over to the contractors house and peek in. Look and see if his wife is getting waited on by servants from all the riches he's making doing jobs like yours. Check his garage and see if there are any Rolls Royces getting polished by the domestic help.
YOU FIRED A GUY BECAUSE HE GAVE YOU A QUOTE?????????!!!!!!!
I Know the guy is better off not doing another thing for someone like you, but I still feel bad for the guy and I hope the next guy that comes over sticks it to you good.
I also hope the guy you "fired" figures out how to hammer you legally in some way.
Maybe you ought to bust up and haul away some 8" thick concrete and see how wealthy you get by charging $625 for that.
Have you calculated how much per hour these guys are averaging? Are the makiing more than the guys at Burger King per hour?
I hope your freaking house caves in.
jim,it's ok if you want to tell us how you really fee,go ahead let it out.lolif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
For those of you who bothered to read my first post, referenced above, this actually goes back to the refusal to fix the crooked field lines (which he finally did after a big fight) and daily incidents since then. Each day became a trial. A trial unlike any other of the 40 subcontractors on this house or the previous two houses I have built. Probably should have explained the quote incident happened in a context and was the "straw" as they say.
I think it can be safely concluded (although with some posters above, maybe not) that any subcontractor with even a marginal two week job history is going not to be fired over two higher numbers on a CO. There's a big downside over firing a sub, as evidenced by my keeping him after the crooked field lines fight.
Opinions and editorializing are welcomed, yes, even Jim's, but I regret no one bothered to take a stab at my question.
Runnerguy
I remember well your original post, read it when it was current. But I still think you overreacted. I regret no one bothered to take a stab at my question What, in just a word or two, was the question? Jim and I think the additional charge for removing the extra concrete was reasonable. And we agree that you were probably in error in firing the guy. Doesn't that cover the situation?
It looks like he did a good job on the sidewalk. Why not pay his asking [price so he will do an equally good job on the drive, and then put it all behind you?"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Good response. This increase/extra the guy is asking for is NOTHING.
Ok, now that you've got others opinions and you've experienced and seen what the job is all about...
What's broken in your #### that YOU cannot finish the job? Laying pavers is not rocket science. There's already a pattern started and materials are available.
Go lay yer own dang pavers and tell them all to get, uh, an ice cream. Or is playing Boss more fun?
The concrete demo has already been addressed by others, and I feel his price is fair. As far as the driveway expansion- lemmee get this straight.
The sub base is already in place ready for sand and pavers.You want an extra 1' in width. Contractor gives you a quote that is higher than the original sf price for the work.
Here's my observations:
I'm much more efficient on the larger areas in prep of the subbase-ex- a sidewalk vs a patio(or driveway) If I need to come in and excavate and prep a 1x23 strip , properly tamped and ready to pave,my mobilization costs for machinery, etc become significantly out of proportion to the area being paved. Not to mention getting 23 sq ft of pavers from my supplier- me to pickup? Him to deliver? $$$
If I read the op correctly, its 23 friggen sq feet.What are we looking at- ~$575 addl cost giving the contractor a premium of ~$150 or so.
Get the heck over it and pay the guy. He seems to be able (with some prodding) to provide a quality job.
Just my 2 cents.
Steve
Edit to add- I'm not entirely clear on how many sq ft are actually involved here, but the thought process remains the same
Steve
Edited 9/8/2008 8:49 am ET by Stash