A while back I posted a question about strapping ceilings.
Well, we went ahead and did it. Although nothing of the sort was required by the I-joist mf’r or code, I felt like we could probably get a better product for the client than what we had. Even though we used 14″ I-joists with 1-3/4 webs, the vibration was more than I’d like in my house.
It only took a few hours to do the whole place, and the difference is remarkable. This will probably become a standard procedure now.
So, thank you Mike, Piffin, and anyone else who joined that discussion.
DRC
Replies
How about some more details? I don't recall the exact thread, or much about your situation.
Could you let us know what your span and spacing was for the 14" I-joists, as well as the type, spacing, and attachment method of your strapping? That info might help others who are/will be thinking about doing this.
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans. [John Lennon]
Sure.
ICF walls, 24' out to out, for a span of 22'2".
14" BCI 16" oc.
Strapping was 1x6 ripped in half. We had a bunch of it already, so it gave us this great 2-3/4" strapping.
(BTW, the idea someone posted over in the Tools section about putting an 8" blade on the Bosch table saw is good. An 8" Freud rip blade eats that strapping as fast as you can feed it through the saw.)
Fastened to the BCI at 16" oc with 2-3/8 x .113 ringshanks, two in each BCI nailed in at a slight opposing angle to keep it tight.
Only drawback was we had sound batts in the ceiling. The guys were really not happy about the FG dust.
Otherwise, good. We have this really easy drywall installation ahead of us now, and the difference in the feel of the second floor is amazing.
Thanks again to all who helped.
DRC
the only thing I did differently than DRC was to add a drop of construction adhesive at each place where the stapping crossed the I-Joists.
The reason why I think I joist floors are more bouncy than dimensional lumber is this: they are SO uniform that the whole floor assy has one single harmonic point, that when you walk at the right frequency excites the whole thing. With dimensional lumber you get more variation from joist to joist and that helps to break up the harmonic a little bit to help avoid the bouncy-bouncy feeling.
The strapping works by raising the frequency of the floor assy enough that normal walking won't cause that any more. So the best benefit from strapping comes from a secure joint with the joists (DRC toe nailed his, I used const. adhesive and drywall screws ~ almost the same thing, I think).
Did you say you used drywall screws?
oh God, don't let this happen. You pompous egotistical redneck, it's not a ponytail. I'm just getting ready for a mean combover and it'll still look a lot better than yours!
oops, meant to say Decking screws.
in any case, they are mostly just clamps until the adhesive dries.
LOL
Rez, you little troublemaker!
I didn't even notice the sr word until you pointed it out, but the combination of screw with glue would probably overcome my objections anyway, tho that sounds like over kill. I use the same ring shanked nails. I wonder how much PL those guys got in their hair?
Jim, that doesn't sound like such a bad span to me for these thickened chord I's
Mike, it was when I moved to New England that I learned about strapping and it was like a mountaintop experience! Every problem I ever had with SR went away in a cloud of dust, never to be seen or heard from again..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Piffin and Rez:
I'm not up to speed on this sheetrock screw thing... What's up? Are they too brittle for this application?
Ragnar
Ther have been some great wars here at BT.
The vent wars re condensation and insulation and vapor bar
The RK SPAM wars where a spamming con artist had skin too thick for the lashing he got, and got, and got...
The Guerrilla war with Larry aka **** aka****aka****
and then there was the War of the Screws. I have seen too many broken ones when taking cabinets down, They are to brittle for cabinet hanging or any other kind of structural work. The head often breaks off oncce it comes in contact with solid wood. They are designed to cam out and stop driving when they hit the paper surface of the SR board. The difference in density between paper on gypsum vs. hard wood is what leads to these failures. Some guys have even tried to use them for building staging!
So I had to weigh in and argue my point that SR screws should only be used for SR. It made a big impression on rez, one of the site jesters, who does well at what jesters do, focus attention on that which needs attending to, while amusing us with light-heartedness.
;)
.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
"So I had to weigh in and argue my point that SR screws should only
be used for SR."
Man, I was about to reiterate that in bold type. Pay attention to Piffin, here, folks. Same for deck screws -- they really are not that much stronger in shear.
In any case, never, never use these screws for anything structural or where a life safety hazard may occur.
True story, happened only about two months ago: I told one of my guys not to use deck screws for a guardrail he was building. He said "OK" and proceeded to nail the rest with duplex 16d.
When we were disassembling the rail he leaned against the part he had screwed, the screws broke, and he found himself bridged across the stair opening 12 feet above a concrete floor.
He wiggled his way down the stair opening to the deck, regained his composure, and said "OK, I get it. No more screws."
Drywall screws are for drywall. Deck screws are for decks. They have great withdrawal resistance, but are almost worthless in shear. They are not intended for structural loads.
This safety briefing is concluded. As you were, gentlemen. <BG>
DRC
The way I've always heard it explained is that nails and wood screws are made from what amounts to a long wire, which gives them structural integrity along their length. Drywall screws are drop forged from bits of metal, not a wire type material, so there are voids or changes in their structural integrity along their length.
Does anyone know this to be true or untrue? Can you explain it in layman's terms?
That being said, I don't use drywall screws for anything structural, but I have been using those vinal coated, square drive deck screws for a few years now and I do trust them. On scaffold jack posts for example, I've seen the 2x4s break before the deck screws snap - unscientific yes, but reassuring to me.
when in doubt, especially if you want to use screws for anything structural, get yourself hanger screws.
These are manufacured so that they can take similar shear loads that nails commonly can take. They are specced for any sheet steel joists used in steel framing.
In the case of strapping, though, since there is nothing structural about it, the fasteners really only need be as strong as the drywall fasteners. In other words, the only thing bad that strapping can do to you is to fall on your head - if your floor is flexing enough to break a fastener in shear then you've got so much massive movement that something else is way wrong.
Remember that the purpose of strapping is to apply a small amount for resistance to a joist squirm movement, at just the right location, to reduce bounce. If you knew just where the nodes of the harmonic occur you could do the whole job with just a couple of strips of strapping, located at those nodes, but since figuring that out would be difficult for each floor design we just put straps every 16"oc and know that they'll get it somewhere.
Norm
norm... harmonics are fine.. but you seem to be overemphsizing the dampening effect and forgetting about weight transfer..and a few other benefits.....
strapping effectively transfers weight to the adjoining joists..it levels minor imperfections... allows for easier erection of partitions....and allows for easier blocking for lights, trim, and anything else that has to be fastened to or near the ceilingMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
and it supports the weight of the dryweall or plaster ceiling fastened to it..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
and...it is cut with a sidewinder, and we've always done it that way.
and our fathers before usMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
...who built with less regular lumber than we have today, so they strapped their ceilings to flatten the surface. We continue the tradition because...
...we build now with the culls left over from way back then..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
I have a question... did you ever try it?
Two... if you tried it and it worked, would your knee stop jerking?
FYI, it has been well over a hundred years since the lumber has been less than regular. Try picking thru the stuff we get these days, I'll go back a generation, as long as I can keep the guns.
Detail your floor system, yours is easier, mine is superior. Anyone want to get an engineer in on this?
This thread was a tji thread, wanna link?
Google tji and follow the recomendations, block, strap, la di dah. There are people that can give you the science, I feel it with my feet.
Btw, my dad is still banging used 8d's straight, I'll give you his phone number if you think it will do any good.
"
"I have a question... did you ever try it?
Two... if you tried it and it worked, would your knee stop jerking?"
I grew up and started in this profession in New England, Quartermeg, so yes, I've tried it. That and many other methods specific to that geographic region. Like folding wooden rulers. That's right, I never saw a carpenter use a tape measure before I left New England. In fact, one of the first times I saw a plumber whip his tape measure out and measure over 6' in one shot I asked the contractor I was working for why didn't carpenters use them. He garumped and said "that's a plumber's tool".
Or maybe you want to debate the merrits of nailing the bottom plates down to the floor, standing the top plate and stud assembly up, and having a couple guys go along toenailing the studs to the bottom plates while a couple more crew mwmbers hold the assembly upright? That's another time honored practice in Western Massachusettes.
Or how about sheathing walls after they are vertical, instead of when they are laying on the deck and gravity is your friend. Should we take a show of hands of how many carpenters still uphold that time honored tradition?
And no, this wasn't isolated to one backwards builder who got me started. I attended a vocational program my last two years of high school that was held up as a model for many other schools in the state, and we used those same techniques and tools there, too. This was the way they did things at least until the early 70s when I left.
Is strapping going to help stiffen long spans? Yes, of course. But is that the only time you guys use strapping?
If we don't question our own methods and understand what we're doing, and why, we aren't going to evolve very rapidly.
now lookee here , jimbo... just as sure as god made little green apples, and ford trucks... he also intended us to strap our ceilings...
it must be the water west of the cascades that made you fergit that...
and god bless us , everyone of usMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
They are called rules, but I like the knee jerk.
I must be a kid, because I never had a hard time finding a tape, 16 ft-3/4". I was in pig heaven when they came out with a 1 inch, I watch the 30 ftrs like a hawk.
I can't help who you worked with, but I always stood walls up diag-braced sheathed with 1x. Decks, walls, roof. Now? Please, I don't stand up a wall until I am done.
Ya, I was voc tech trained, or should I say torture tested. Never saw plywood, never saw a nail gun. Well, I saw ply when I was let loose on shop week to frame in the real world, and I got to lug and toss a bunch of it. The last semester of sophomore year and senior year you could work in the real world. I didn't know any better so I ended up framing down by Boston. With worms, no less.
My voc thing was more than an add on, they built a whole high school to keep me away from the good kids. I graduated the third class out, 1974. 3 1/2 years yielded 2 pieces of paper that are tossed in a draw. After I goofed for awhile I tossed a couple of years of college waste in a draw.
What is the point? Strapping sux? You want the links for this thread, or do you want me to talk real world?
Real world is a wild card, I have seen most of it. I'm a weird one, I frame, finish, remodel, build, it depends who is pissing me off and what I want to do. The last thing I wondered was if I could staple the strap, but you might be the wrong person to ask that.
Evolving is fine, but you prove less is better before I leave something out.
My mind is open, and my arm is tired. Tell me what to skip. Right now you won't see me walk away from a 2x deck that isn't x bridged and strapped. Sue me.
I evolved
from the western cheaper method to the easy better method
once I learned all the advantages.
Ed GACCDallas stated over at JLC that he was starting to understand the advantages too and would probably use strapping in the future.
Jim, you said "the only reason..." It looks like you have ignored, or not read all the posts made on this subject in the past year, or having read them, decided to ignore what was in them, or you are awfully forgeful.
There are a great many reasons for using straping to improve the quality of the job.
From what I can tell, there is only one reason for not doing it, that being that it is a little cheaper to avoid it..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
"From what I can tell, there is only one reason for not doing it, that being that it is a little cheaper to avoid it."
If Blue-eyed Devil were here he would be quick to chime in the one could save spotted owls by omitting the strapping.
I wonder how PPL is doing?
Jon Blakemore
Remind me, who is PPL?.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
not who.
Blue's PPL, PrePaid Legal
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Barry E
"What is the point? Strapping sux?"
No, that's not my point at all. I think there are certain times, like on long spans, where strapping could actually help stiffen the floor/ceiling. "Bridging"? Yes, that could help too if it was installed correctly. You ever worked with one of those guys who sheets the inside of the kitchen walls with plywood before sheetrocking so as to insure better backing? That makes for a stronger structure too. But is it wasteful? How much is enough?
What I'm saying is - just because our fathers did something, and their fathers before them, doesn't mean it makes sense. What about framing members spaced 19.2" o.c.? You ever hear of that when you were coming up? What about putting top plate joints directly over a stud in non bearing walls? Does that make any sense when the plates split half the time because you're nailing so close to the end of the board?
There are many, many techniques we learned that don't stand up to close scrutiny. Of course, that's my opinion.
So I'll ask again - do you strap just the long spans to stiffen them up? Or do you strap all your ceilings because it's what you've always done.
Piffen - I don't have the best memory (I'm pretty sure I know why), but I have read lots and lots of rationalizations for strapping. I just haven't read many that I thought made sense. If you don't want to discuss this, fine. But don't patronize me by referring to old discussions.
"So I'll ask again - do you strap just the long spans to stiffen them up? Or do you strap all your ceilings because it's what you've always done."
Boy, I was just trying to pull your chain, but I'll bite. This thread was about increasing perceived floor performance with tji's by adding strapping. It works, and you can feel it with your feet.
No time to debate for real right now. I'll try later. Others can, the list is long on both sides.
Jim,
Here in New Jersey you will never see a house strapped. New homes or additions.
Back in 1985 I moved to Cape Cod and that was the first time I ever seen it done. When I asked the builder what it was for he told me it makes it easier for the plumbers and electricians.
He never mentioned it was for straightening ceilings. If that was the case we would have shimmed the strapping to straighten the ceilings. Nobody did that.
He didn't believe me when I told him that we screw the sheetrock to the bottom of the joists. I told him that's the way they do it and have always done it.
I've done that here on existing houses when you want to straighten a ceiling and so do other contractors but you'll never see it done and also when I moved back to NJ no one even new what the word meant.
I'm sure it's a better job but one can't say that you can't build a house without strapping, there's millions of million dollar homes around here without it.
Everybody does things differently all over.
When I started framing for layout we snapped all our lines nailed down our shoe plate and we nail our two top plates together and tack them into the shoe, lap all our walls mark everything and then frame the walls.
They don't do it that way, they nail the bottom plate to the bottom of the stud and one top plate to the top of the stud and put the sheathing on first and stand the walls up and than go back and put the third plate on.
I thought it was crazy but since I learned it out there I do it sometimes with the walls but I always do it with all my gable ends, rakes and all. The framers in NJ thought I was nuts now but it's fast.
Joe Carola
I wasn't patronizing you Jim. It's just that I remember this same discussion once before where you were involved in saying the same thing once before, and were given all the reasons why strapping is good once before and then start off in this one by saying that you only know of one reason.
So for the benefit your memory and for those who are noticing this issue for the first time, Let me list them again, if my aging memory can manage this morning.
I don't do this because my forefathers did because I never saw it during the first fifteen years of my construction career. It was after I personally witnessed the many benefits of doing it that I added it to my list of necessities for good work.
Sound transmits from floor to floor via solid materials. You know about party walls separating studs to break that connection between adjacent apartments. Strapping does nearly the same thing in the vertical direction. It isolates the ceiling from dorect contact with the floor joists and it is the single least expensive or most value oriented way of decreasing the transmition of sound from upper floors to lower rooms. I recently did a job where I strapped ceilings with wood floors on the bedrooms above. Another contractor built a similar house where he did not strap but added an expensive sound absorbing pad under carpet on the upper floors. His customers are complaining about sound while mine are tickled to death. Lots of subject stuff here but I believe that as long as the solid joists are making a connection for the vibrations to travel through, the barrier pad has limited effect.
Placing strapping to the bottom of the joists ius a far easier and less expensive way, in both labor and materials, to add strength to a floor system than solid blocking or bridging. I think it adds more resistance to vibration too because it connects across the entire floor frame and not just the intermittant locations.
Placing strapping makes an easy way to be sure you have plenty of ceiling nailing for crown mold installation after SR is hung.
Depending on whether your inspector allows it or not, running wiring is easier without drilling holes.
Once you get your head around the concept, it's an easy step to be able to add an inch of faom in certain locations to the bottom of the framing and then screw or nail through it with the strapping.
For older houses, when you remodel and gut out and find that one side of the house has settled or the middle is sagging or something else has caused the ceiling framing to be off level, it is easy when strapping, to add a few shims here or there to bring it into a flat plane. Some rooms it may not even be noticeable, but let's sat that you are doing a kitchen where the cabs will trim with croen to the ceiling. A gap at one end where the ceiling is high is extremely noticeable. Without strapping, the other method for correcting this would be to sister onto the joists. That then decreases the spaces where you might be installing fibreglas insulation or trying to line up can lights.
.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Piffin,
For older houses, when you remodel and gut out and find that one side of the house has settled or the middle is sagging or something else has caused the ceiling framing to be off level, it is easy when strapping, to add a few shims here or there to bring it into a flat plane. Some rooms it may not even be noticeable, but let's sat that you are doing a kitchen where the cabs will trim with croen to the ceiling. A gap at one end where the ceiling is high is extremely noticeable. Without strapping, the other method for correcting this would be to sister onto the joists. That then decreases the spaces where you might be installing fibreglas insulation or trying to line up can lights.
I agree with what you said 100%. We just did a job this past week on a 95 year old home TV room 38' x 20' with an I- Beam right down the middle and out of level 2-3/4" with a 1/2" sag in the middle.
There wasn't one level spot in the ceiling, the one end was 3-3/4" out of level so I bought a Robo Laser and shot level lines around all the walls and reframed a new ceiling. There will be a coffered ceiling and all built in cabinets from floor to ceiling so everything has to be level.
I guess here in NJ strapping new work never caught on. But remodeling we always fix or level ceilngs and straighten out and square up cabinet walls.
Joe Carola
Edited 12/28/2002 10:28:56 AM ET by Framer
Well, when I learned to strap ceilings we DID flatten the ceiling by shiming the strapping to lines stretched perpendicular to the joists. Now that we frame with engineered lumber and trusses so often, I find less need for it. And like I said earlier I certainly don't think it's a good practice unless there is a specific need for it.
piffin - If I did say "the only reason" for strapping was for stiffening purposes, I misspoke. To this day I often strap, or more often fir ceilings with sistered backing in remodels, basement ceilings are probably the most common. But I was surprised to see that in quotation marks and couldn't find where I said it.
As far as patronizing goes, I see many posts here that read like "could we please not discuss THIS again" and usually the person saying it is an old timer who posts a link, or impies that since this was discussed recently, the current poster need only refer to previous posts to get several opinions, and the old timer doesn't want to waste their energy discussing it again. Maybe you didn't intend for your post to read like that, but it did. Of course, the reader has at least as much responsibility for interpreting what he reads, so I accept responsibility for misconstruing what you wrote, if that's what you say.
Now, if I was involved in an earlier discussion about ceiling strapping, which I probably was, and not convinced by whatever arguments you, or others raised, which I wasn't, I am gonna keep questioning this practice when I come to it again, in hopes of hearing something I haven't heard before that will help me understand why others do whatever they are talking about. I am willing to be swayed, but it takes a lot better argument than "that's what we've always done", which I read far too often here.
Faair enough Jim, #37 http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=25745.37
is where you implied that that was the only reason. I re-read it and you didn't directly say it, I just read it that way because you were or seemed to bne, laying it out as a challenge, "Prove to me that it isn't the only reason" or "Give me another reason" . I had to study it in you context to actually see it.
Now, if that's what you mean by patronizing, then I guess I'll have to plead guilty. It's way more thgan once that I have written advice to check the archives or provided a link to a search found list. On reason is an unwillingness to retype what I had just written in a long post only a week or two earlier or several times in the past year. Another reason tho for refering to the archives is that when discussing an issue where two or more sides have been presented, I think it is more fair that the reader be able to be exposed to the words of the opposing argument in the words written rather me paraphrasing the words of those I have opposed. It would be hard for me to objectively present the argument of the other side in the right context. I'd rather rely on the intelligent reading of the person seeking information and refer him to the whole discussion(s) via search. So if being both lazy and fair means that I'm patronizing, I'll have to add that to my profile.
;)
And since I'm lazy today, I didn't use the search to find where it was in the past year that you were part of this same discussion once before. That's less important than knowing that you are not ignoring it but still trying hard to be convinced objectively that it is the right thing to do. My first impression was that you were coming across as saying that strapping is a wasted effort and should not need to be done.
So what did you think about the reasons I gave?.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
"So what did you think about the reasons I gave?"
Sound dampening is probably best reason I've read for strapping.
I've never been a big fan of cross bridging. I would love to see the numbers of side by side studies done to compare blocking with strapping for "roll" resistance. I agree that with the advent of I-joists strapping is far easier than solid blocking, but I don't see how it's stronger. And, to be honest, I don't see how strapping is significantly better for this than sheathing both sides of the joist system. On an unsheathed ceiling, like say in a cellar, no question that strapping is better than leaving the ceiling unsheathed.
I guess backing for crown could be an issue, but do all the houses you work on get crown? Again, like the long span question I asked Qtrmeg, I'd agree it might make sense in that instance, but do you just strap in those cases, or do you strap out of habit and are now listing advantages?
I definately see an advantage to running wiring through the voids, but I have to wonder how close to the finished surface I want wiring run. It's my understanding that that's why electricians use nail plates when their wires are too close to the edge of framing members. Is anyone familiar enough with the NEC to answer this? But even if it's "legal", I'm not sure it's a good practice.
I'm not certain why I'd want an extra inch of foam, I guess as another sound dampening layer.
Flattening ceilings is the one instance where I agree that strapping might be the best method, but I've had real good luck flattening ceilings by sistering backing alongside existing joists too, and that method leaves easy access for ductwork, plumbing, and electricians. All depends on the specific case.
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. Two of our kids are home from school and I get limited access to the computer.
I just want to say clearly that I think of ceiling strapping as one of the tools I carry in my box. I use it when I need it, but as a standard practice I think it's a questionable investment of both labor and materials.
it used to be llegal to run the wires in the furring space but not no more...
however, furring increases the options available for almost everything.. and the increased cost to buy & install the furring is offset by increased efficiency in a lot of the other operations..
in a tract house , where every penny is multiplied by the number of houses in theproject, the builders will spec it out of the envelope.. but in custom work , it's pretty easy to jsutifyMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I'm kinda curious about something regarding strapping and drywall.
Around here, precut studs for 8' walls are 92 5/8". Add 3 plates, and you end up with a 8' 1 1/8" wall. Put 5/8" drywall on the ceiling, and that leaves you with 8' 0 1/2". Add 2 rows of 4' wide drywall (Help up against the ceiling drywall) and you have a 1/2" gap at the bottom.
If you add in 3/4" for strapping on the ceiling, you would have to rip the bottom sheet of drywall. Do you guys who strap ceilings rip the bottom row of drywall, or use taller studs, or what?I start with the premise that the function of leadership is to produce more leaders, not more followers. [Ralph Nader]
boss.. ripping sheets is pretty common.. most houses are NOT 8'.. they're 7'10" or 9'.. or 8'6" or something other than a perfect 2 sheets.. it's only when you get into "Value Engineering " that you end up witht he ideal situation.. i've never used a precut stud in my life..Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Cuttin' it up over here Boss,
(Think Cool Hand Luke)
Yep, I wondered over that one a bit, myself.
In this case the first story is about 10' or 11' tall (I don't remember) so it doesn't matter. PITA to drywall anyway.
The second story is 7'-8-5/8" studs on the south side and 9'-8-5/8" studs on the north side, 1/12 pitch shed roof, rake walls, and the walls are all about 14" thick (double framed). So if you factor in the rake, nothing is standard anymore and the drywall all comes out off of the module.
So this time I just did the strapping, didn't worry about the heights, and it worked far better than I ever expected. I am still wondering what I'd do if I ever ran into a "normal" construction situation.
Happy New Year!
DR
Boss,
I was thinking the same thing. We have 92-5/8" precuts for 8' walls and 104-5/8" precuts for 9' foot walls too.
So they would have to cut the sheetrock for both 8' and 9'. I guess years ago it didn't matter with the 9' walls but now since they use two rows of 4-6" sheetrock they would have to cut that too.
The sheetrockers would SCREAM here if they had to do that. I guess I would to if I was a sheetrocker. They have to charge more money to cut every single sheet.
Maybe not since it's the normal thing to do in whatever state uses strapping.
Joe Carola
Edited 12/27/2002 5:53:36 PM ET by Framer
You don't scream if you have to cut the lumber, do you, Joe?.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
I would SCREAM if I had to start cutting 3/8 off 8' precuts Piffin.
Joe Carola
Piffin,
In general, I continue to be amazed at what people say sheetrockers will "scream" at! Who are these guys?!?! For example, having to cut a piece to size -- what a tragedy! In their ideal world, maybe the lengths of all interior walls should also come in 8' intervals, so that no cutting is required along that dimension either. And wouldn't it be great if instead of having a pesky door opening, the carpenters framed trap doors into the floors and the homeowners could just crawl between the joists from one room into the other! And of course windows would just have to be eliminated entirely.
I don't know where these guys work. In my part of the world, there's virtually no such thing as houses built on 4'- or 8'-modules! Is this commercial construction that these guys are talking about, or maybe large tract developments?
Just curious,
Ragnar
I understand to some degree because they usually charge or get paid by the sheet, but the charges are higher for custom work to reflect the extra work yet they still worry their little heads off over it.
I had same situation when I was subing roofs. I wouldn't do a 12/12 cut up for the same per ft price as for a 3/12 ranch and I didn't complain when I worked on a nice one. .
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
It's a good question, Ragnar.
As the builder, I deal with it in every phase.
The truth is, everything costs something. I try as hard as I can to see it from the sub's point of view. If I can change a detail to make the job go better for everyone and preserve the design intent, often I will if it translates to a better job at a lower price.
For example, there are many ways to terminate plaster at a window. What I decide on will have a direct bearing on how much the plaster costs, and oddly enough it changes from house to house.
Likewise for drywall. See, my subs don't scream. They just charge less when I cooperate (i.e. make an easy day for them) and more if I don't.
Same as me.
Another example. Plumbers and roofers occasionally have a hard time with each other when it comes to roof penetrations. The roofer often follows the plumbing top out, and all those holes are really cumbersome. Or the plumber follows the roofer, and regularly butcher an otherwise attractive roofing job.
My answer? The plumber comes cuts holes for the penetrations, puts a coupling in just below the roof framing, and leaves the last few feet above the coupling loose (not glued).
The roofer removes the plumbing penetration, does a beautiful job, sets the stack to his liking, and everybody is happy.
If your subs are screaming, they might be worth listening to. If they have legitimate ideas, you all might make more money. If they're just whining, you can always get new subs. <G>
DRC
Well said, and the answer to Joe's question for preenting the rip of only a half in off SR would be to add another plate if he is using precut studs and needs to have strapping too..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Piffin,
I've been meaning to thank you for some time, I guess now is as good a time as any. It's a priviledge for me to be part of these discussions. The knowledge, insight, experience, and even-handed, good-tempered humor you bring makes me look forward to your posts.
You have no idea how many times you've made my day by pointing out some really obvious detail I completely missed.
For example:
". . . would be to add another plate if he is using
precut studs and needs to have strapping too"
Next time I build something with pre-cuts I bet I remember that one.
Happy New Year,
DRC
Dave,
Thank you back. You are a breathe of fresh air in the desert. There are some on other threads who seem to think that I only come here to argue but it's really in hope that I can help someone out or turn a light on.
You've made my day!.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Ragner,
(For example, having to cut a piece to size -- what a tragedy!)
Since I'm the one who brought up the SCREAMING, you Obviously missed the point.
No one is saying that it's a TRAGEDY about cutting sheetrock or lumber. If that was the case me being a Framing contractor I should get out of the buisness and also the sheetrocker too.
The Point was that around here we don't strap and every single job, new homes and additions that have 8' precut walls, no sheetrocker cuts any sheets at all in height.
So if they were to start strapping around here and the sheetrocker had to cut every sheet they would have to get more money and they wouldn't Scream unless your one of those builders and there are alot around my area that don't want to pay for anything extra.
If I were to have to start strapping every job that I frame, I would have to get more money and I wouldn't SCREAM either. Do you get the point NOW?
As Piffin said, he wouldn't charge the same price for a 12/12 roof as opposed to a 3/12 roof. Nor would my roofer either.
Would you tell your sheetrocker to do a house with no stapping with no cuts and a house with strapping cutting every sheet for the same price?
Joe Carola
Joe, the other side to it is that if everyone gets on track to doing it, the rockers absolutely love hanging to a ceiling that has been strapped. It is so much easier to hit with a screw a strap that is 2-3/8" wide instead of a waney bottom chord that is less than 1.5" wide or if you are strappin bottom of floor joist 2x10s that have varying amounts of crown, it's easier for the finishers to have a smooth finished ceiling.
There's always tradeoffs and it starts with the designer to know what's what to save bucks while doing the better job when he can. Prevailing methods in an area are a consideration for him to pay attention to..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Piffin,
Do you still strap the bottom of a I-joist that is 2-5/8" or 3-1/2" wide?
I'm not trying to be difficult with anyone and I'm sure you understand what I'm saying.
I no more about strapping than anyone around NJ because I had the chance to do it for a year in Cape Cod.
Without reading all the posts I don't know if anyone has said that you have to strap. It's just that when I was out in Cape Cod the builder and everyone else thought I was nuts when I told him that we screw right to the bottom of the floor joists, they didn't think that is was the right thing to do.
But as I previously posted, there's millions of houses out here that don't have it on new work and no one can say that you have to strap.
I guess it just never caught on around here.
I also know that you understand what I was talking about cutting the sheets of sheetrock. If we were to start strapping the sheetrockers and the framers would have to get more money. That's fine, no one would scream.
I can adapt to any change when it comes to Framing, I did. I learned to sheath walls especially Gable end walls first befor standing them up. I like it that's why I do it here. I use the gable ends once there up as part of my scaffolding, it works out perfect.
Most additions we do we don't use precuts because we have to match the existing plates exact. Depending on what's on the existing floors, where your matching. There's been times where the Builder or GC didn't want the top of the floor joists to match because of what was on the existing floors.
On second floors where the plate heights and top of the rafters are supposed to match, that causes a problem when the new rafters are 2x10's and the old rafters are 2x6. Now the plate heights don't match.
Any job I do I don't use any beams with big crowns in them at all I'll through them aside and if we don't have enough good ones because of a bad load I'll get more and pick them out myself.
There's been jobs where the new meets the old and we have to stap the ceiling then we'll put lines across and shim where we have to but using straight beams from the start it makes it that much easier.
BTW, I hope you and your family had a good Christmas.
Joe Carola
Guy, read the first post on this thread, that is what it Was all about.
That said, one of the other major reasons to strap is not just giving the drywallers something to shoot at, it is tying the joists to avoid joist twist that junks the hold of the drywall screws.
Etc, also makes good conversation when we ared bored.
Qtrmeg,
"That said, one of the other major reasons to strap is not just giving the drywallers something to shoot at, it is tying the joists to avoid joist twist that junks the hold of the drywall screws."
That's why we use 5/4x3 cross bridging or 2x solid blocking I thought.
I will agree with all that strapping that deffinetly makes sence about joists twisting and it's probably alot stronger than just one or two rows of bridging or solid blocking.
These are great conversations. It's just amazing how things are done differently all over but with good results.
My for year old keeps telling me to get off the computer so we can play Spider Man on his XBOX.
Joe Carola
You've got another one in the oven for next Christmass too, don't you?
There was another post from me to Jim B about halfway back in the thread where I gave quite a few other reasons for strapping, amoung them that you can gain at least as much from strappingstructurally as you can from solid blocking. None of this was meant to try to convince eveyone in the country that all homes should be strapped, but to counter Jims popsition that the only reson for strapping is, "We've always done it that way" as expressed by other NE builders he had known.
IMO, that blind following of tradition is just as ignorant as someone who might refuse to consider strapping because he never saw it before. I don't think any participants in this thread have either of those attitudes, at least now. One reason we're all here is to share info and learn from each other.
When I moved here to the island, I found that many of the carpenters were sailors, fishermen, and caretakers who were in need of winter work rather than following a proifession. They did things the way their grandfather's did, not all of which was bad, but they had never heard of using construction adhesive on a subfloor to joist floor system to increase strength or reduce sqeeks. I still remember the looks I got when I went to layout a gablew end wall with it laying down on the deck - OMGthat'llneverwork - how can you know what length to cut etc. They had always raised the ridge and set rafters and then stick framed the end walls one piec at a time by having one guy hold the stud in place with a plumbstick while the other guy on a ladder marked the scribe cut to the rafter and then waited while the sawyer cut the notch out. Then the sawyer waited while the first two repeated the process.
So sharing info from other places is all good. There's a time and place for everything and every method
I strap to the bottom of TJIs for strength and reducing vibration more than some of the other reasons. I guess it has been six years now since I switched to using more open web floor trusses than TJIs. I don't strap with them. They do get the strongbacks installed through the indicated locations to do the blocking work..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Piffin,
No bun in the oven unfortunatley. It took 7 years to have my son Joey luckily through Invitro Fertlilization. Will see what happens. Thank God we have him. He keeps me sane. Is that possible? ;-)
I guess whenever I have a bad day at work, when I get home he's waits behind the door so he can beat me up. No more bad day.
You got me thinking about strapping the bottom of TJI's.
There's been two houses that I framed where there was an I-Beam girder and we had to glue and bolt an LVL on the top of the I-Beam and the top of the LVL was flush to the top of the TJI's.
The I-Beams on my friends house was 13-3/4" wide & 24" height there were 2 running 40' long smaller ones perpendicular to them. Every single TJI were all on hangers.
All we did was nail the hangers on and drop the TJI's in and then went back later and blocked the hangers out with 5/4. The bottoms were just floating there no bridging, blocking or strapping of any kind. That's how it was engineered right on the plans. No sheetrock on the bottom, the basemeant will have a drop ceiling later on.
I don't have any of the papers with the different ways to install TJI's here but I know there's something to that effect. Have you ever seen or heard of it done that way befor?
Joe Carola
I like TJIs because they are so straight and light.
But I hate them because they are so light and they are a pain to detail or do blocking on.
My house has them on top hanging hardware. I used that on one other house too. and in a garage that was balloon famed with a let in ledger. Each tiume it was for detail and design reasons but I wasn't completely comfortable with them. The bottom strapping really takes a lot of vibration out of the system and you don't need to cut those crazy notches in blocking.
Of course, the solid blocking would be doing more to prevent fire spread which I know is one of your concerns..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
I appreciate the time you take to help others. You are very knowledgeable and we can easily see that your suggestions are formed from years of experience and probable by some mistakes that are also good tools of learning. If we are lucky we can avoid old mistakes and make only new ones of our own.
I am adding 15 feet to a 16 foot kitchen for a total length of 31 feet. Floor and ceiling are now nearly identical in height where old and new meet (don't have a lazer but a hose and water worked slower but fine). My old 100 year old ceiling joists vary by 1/8 to 7/8th of an inch in one corner. Because of this subject's discussion on Fine Homebuilding I am convinced to use strapping instead of sistering joists.
Question: on an 8' 6" ceiling how close do I need to shim. Cetainly 1/8th is not noticable. How about 1/4th, 3/8ths, 1/2?
Richard
For framing, I consider anything within a quarter inch in six to eight feet to be acceptable. So if you have 7/8 inch in thirty feet, it might not be noticeable except for the fact that you will be hanging wall cabinets that approach the ceiling. If I imagine a run of cabs twelve feet long, hung level only a foot or less from a ceiling that is off by a half inch in that space, it will catch the eye and draw attention to the fact that somethin is wrong. It can make level things LOOK off. It would be worse if the cabinet design brings the wall cabs within, say, three inches to be filled with a crown.
I have worked some old places that werre off as much as three inches in a twenty eight foot ceiling. Now that took some shimming!
Tomorrow, I'll be driving some cedaaar shims to this ceiling and renailing the loose strapping to straighten it up..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Joe,
Actually, I wasn't responding to your post, at least not specifically. There's been a number of comments on sheet rock work over the last couple of weeks, and I was just voicing my opinion on the subject in general.
From what people here have said, it sounds like a lot of sheetrock contractors make a huge fuss over anything that I personally would view as no big deal. For example, cutting a piece to size. It's this general attitude of having a cow over any non-standard job that I was commenting on and bringing into question.
Every job is different, or at least that's the way I see things. It only makes sense to me to bid each job according to its complexity and any other issues that come into play. As a professional, it's my business to know how to adjust a bid accordingly, not just bitch about it and try to find a way out of doing the "extra" work.
A couple of years ago, I was the sub doing finish trim on a large addition. I worked with the client to design each element of the trim, which was varied on different floors, different rooms, etc. There were literally dozens of details to keep track of. By contrast, the electrical finish was very simple. All the client asked for was ivory faceplates/switches, etc. on the main floor, and white components on the second floor. But guess what happened? The electrician complained about how difficult it was going to be and gruffly said something like, "Oh, that seems pretty complicated."
This electrian epitomized the attitude I'm criticizing.
Ragnar
The next time you get to play with drywall, rip off a 1/2", and compare that with ripping off 4"s. The mini rip is a pain, the other is just a cut.
I liked the electrician story, I guess it's all relative. I spec'd white for my house and I come in and they are all ivory. I pat him on the head and walk away...ivory it is.
LOL
Was he on his knees when you patted his pate?.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Qtr,
Yeah, trying to cut 1/2" of a sheet of rock is not that easy!
I have a technique for this, however. Maybe this is common knowlege, but I figured it out from doing leaded glass work, where cutting off say, a 1/16" is similarly a challenging cut.
Anyway, I've found that if I score both sides of the cut before executing the snap, it works like a charm - at least most of the time! ;)
Regards,
Ragnar
Ragnar,
Sorry I came off a little strong on my post to you, I thought you were refering to me in some way about complaining because I'm actually the opposite.
You said,
Every job is different, or at least that's the way I see things. It only makes sense to me to bid each job according to its complexity and any other issues that come into play. As a professional, it's my business to know how to adjust a bid accordingly, not just bitch about it and try to find a way out of doing the "extra" work.
I agree with what you said 100%. That's how you should bid a job and alot of guys don't bid it that way. All the guys that I see Bitching about a job that they are doing they will say something like, "Oh this is a pain in the ####, there's alot of work cutting around this arch, this is a steep roof I can't get nothing done, it's going to take me weeks to get all this duct work in, all these hips and valleys with different piches to cut.
The list goes on. I'll say to these guys, didn't you look at the plan befor you bid the job, it's all there right in front of you? Well you know it's still alot of work.
I don't complain about any job that I bid because if I miss something on that plan that's MY fault nobody elses. I'll call myself an idiot.
Alot of jobs that I frame you can't square foot the price. Alot of people say How much you get a sq/ft. i tell them I don't charge by the sq/ft.
Remodeling, alterations, complexed additions, tying into old homes. There's alot invovled with the framing, so when I get a set of plans I go through every single room and write down what I have to do. Some rooms I have to demo all the bearing walls and the demo guy will do the rest.
This way there's less room for era.
I framed a 2000 sq/ft addition one time, the addition roof had to blend in with the old roof and the old roof was cedar shakes. The GC told me that he was ripping the cedar shakes off and putting down timberlan 30 year shingles.
It worked out that we were going to keep the top of my rafters even with the top of the 1x2's once the cedar shingles were ripped off we would sheath right over the 1x2's and across the new framing. I was to just overlap my sheathing onto the old roof 1x2's up to the existing dormer and then when the roofer got there to strip the cedar he would finish the sheathing.
I stopped by the job one day to get one of my ladders and the roofer was there and I noticed he was using horse feathers and I saw a big hump in the new roof where the old met the new. I said to the roofer what the F##K are you doing? why aren't you stripping the roof and blending in the plywood?
He told me that the GC made a mistake and never figured in the job to rip the old roof off. So I said are you F#####G for real? A $500,000.00 addition and your going to have a hump in the roof on the front of the house. Plus they will probably blame me saying I didn't frame the roof right.
The best is, It was only about 4 squares.
Happy New Year to you and your Family.
Joe Carola
Yeah, those guys who high ball through every job, complaining about this and that, workin' like madmen to "get the job done"...what, are they gonna retire after that job or something? No. They are gonna go on to the next job, highball through it fast as they can, complaining every step...I just always think to myself "you're in the wrong profession my friend. You don't enjoy the work so you just want the end of the day to come sooner". It's real prevelent, but I don't get it.
Jim,
"Yeah, those guys who high ball through every job, complaining about this and that, workin' like madmen to "get the job done"...
Being a framing contractor I see alot of what you said above with other subs. I have no patience for guys like that. If your a GC and I'm going to frame a job for you, I want to be able to work and communicate with all your subs this way no one can complain or blame eachother for any thing.
I can't stand someone who can't take the time to go over something or they will rush through something and then worry about fixing the mistake later. Their main concern is get the job done and get a payment.
There's been a few times where I tell the GC that I want to go over something with the plumber and the plumber will tell the GC to tell me , don't worry about it the they will work it out when they get to it.
I'm not a plumber but on new homes it's not a problem laying out my beams for the plumber but on existing work such as add-a-levels alot of times I will frame in a plumbing box buit it's nice to go over it with the plumber so there's no problems.
I don't believe in rushing things and fixing them and complaining about them later.
I had to frame a small roof over a back door one time and there was a deck there but also where the rafters and the gutter was going to be was right next to the kitchen window and there wasn't that much space from the gutter to the window.
There was a light fixture to go in between the gutter and the window. So I told the GC to ask the electrician how wide the fixture was. The electrician said why the hell does the framer want to know that. I told the GC because I could ajust my rafter overhang allowing for the fascia and thickness of the gutter so that the fixture could be in the center and also in the center of the rail below so every thing looked nice.
If I rushed through everything and not be concerned for the end result and didn't adjust mt rafters maybe the fixture and light wouldn't fit. So now the electrician can't complain.
I worked with alot of framers that complain every day and I just tell them stop bitchng or get out of the buisness. Alot has to do with people not liking what they for a living. I love what I do, and I'm not saying that I don't complain but you I get over it quick.
Happy New Year Jim.
Joe Carola
Joe,
Thanks for the clarification about your post -- and don't worry about sounding a bit harsh. I've got a thick skin. ;)
Sounds like you do nice work -- keep it up. That story about the guys botching the roof you framed in would have made my blood boil!
Happy New Year to you, too.
Regards,
Ragnar
Ragner,
What pissed me off more about that roof was the fact that the roofer who really was a good guy new that what he was doing wasn't right.
I said to the roofer, how could you even do the job knowing it wasn't the right thing to do, now your just as bad as the GC.
He asked me what would I have done if the GC asked me to do something like that.
I told him that I would tell the GC that he's an A##HOLE and I woudn't do the job and I did call the GC right from the job and told him that.
Ragner, I do alot of work for GC's and when I'm on the job I take care of their jobs as if they were mine and they don't even have to come around when I'm there because they know that I will look out for them and I will work with all the other subs. It makes the job go that much easier.
Today for instance, I'm putting these windows and doors in on an addition I did and these windows are from a company called ZEALAC from NY. I have to cut all the plywood out and fill in all the I-joists solid and put copper pans in so that all the doors can sit right on top of the I-joists.
Never seen or heard of this befor until this company (this could be another thread).
The stone mason was there today and had asked me if I could put some windows and doors in a specific part of the house first so that he can finish his stone work. We discussed this for about an hour because it works out where I'll put the windows and doors where he wants and he'll lift some of the heavier windows for us with his Lull into place and we can work off of his Lull.
Not a problem, no complaints no GC just two subs working with eachother to get the job done and where all happy.
Joe Carola
Joe,
Seems like you're the type of guy who takes pride in his work, takes responsibility for his decisions, and constantly uses his mind to improve the product.
Unfortunately, people like you are hard to find. The big question is: why aren't MORE people like this?
What do you think?
Ragnar
In my trade, computer programming, studies have shown that the productivity of programmers in a single company often varies by as much as a factor of 10. That's net productivity, after all the screwups have been fixed. However, the salary difference between the most productive and the least productive programmers is nowhere near a factor of 10.
So, yeah, I know at least one reason why there aren't more top performers. It doesn't pay.
I know at least one reason why there aren't more top performers. It doesn't pay
That's the biggest single reason I quit my old job (engineering) and started contracting. At my old job, I felt I was being taken advantage of, since I was producing so much more than average, and was in no way being compensated for it. In fact, I was making less than others, since I didn't have a MS or PhD! Salary in no way reflected productivity. The salary scale was based on a spoils system of sorts.
I love being self-employed. If I work hard and smart, I stand to reap the rewards. If I screw up, I am the one to accept responsibility. Either way, it's up to me and my abilities. It is simple and beautiful.
Ragnar
Ragner,
"Seems like you're the type of guy who takes pride in his work, takes responsibility for his decisions, and constantly uses his mind to improve the product."
"Unfortunately, people like you are hard to find. The big question is: why aren't MORE people like this?
I do take Pride in my work and it's just how I am. I take pride in everything that I do. If there's something that I'm not sure of, I wont stop until I figure it out and the right way. The one GC that I work for told me that I am the type of guy that there's is no inbetweens, It's either right or it's wrong with me and I will not do something if I know that it's wrong.
For me to rush through something and then have to go back and fix something it kills me to even think that. And alot of guys that I know will rush things and worry more about getting paid then to take your time to do it right the first time.
Me personally if I make a mistake I get really pissed at myself or would be embarrassed but that's me.
When were working on a 20,000.00 or $500,000.00 addition, I can't for the life of me see that the GC and his subs can't have a meating and discuss a situation that could effect every sub. It just doesn't make any sence at all PERIOD!
I have proof of what happens when we all discuss something in great detail, It Works!
Alot of the guys I know that really don't care as much are making 10 times what I'm making. Maybe I'm Stupid who knows.
Joe Carola
"Alot of the guys I know that really don't care as much are making 10 times what I'm
making. Maybe I'm Stupid who knows."
Well, if that's stupid, so be it because I'm with you all the way, Joe. The world could use more framers who see the world like you.
DRC
Joe,
I'd like you to take a look at a post at the Woodshed Tavern called "The Meaning of Money." The post is on the long side, but it is definitely worth reading and thinking about. Based on what I know of your character, I think you'd really like it.
Ragnar
So, if I DON'T strap my ceiling, and instead screw my gypboard directly to the floor or ceiling joists, should I use something other than SR screws?
Anyway, for strapping a ceiling with soft pine or strapping with a schedule of two per, I wouldn't lose sleep over using SR screws for it.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
ya but i bet you wouldn't do it.You pompous egotistical redneck, it's not a ponytail. I'm just getting ready for a mean combover and it'll sure look a lot better than yours!
no.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
I talked recently to my I-joist dealer and when he told me 91/2 I's will only go slighty longer than 2x10s I asked him why people bother using them and he replied because they make a stiffer floor. I didn't reply because my experience was the exact opposite. On the topic of this thread, the Ontario building code allows spf 2x10s @16"oc with wood strapping and drywall to span 15'7" while with just strapping and bridging they allow 14'1".
"...he replied because they make a stiffer floor. I didn't reply because my experience was the exact opposite."
I think you're probably right, although maybe not for the reason you suspect. I think people tend to think I-joists are incredibly strong or something - Some even refer to them as "I-beams". So they push the span limits too much and get a bad floor.
Any floor system out there can be made stiff, strong, or both. But push the span limits of anything and you're bound to have problems.I'm trying to imagine you with a personality.
well....
I think you are both right, but not for the same reasons:
any structure, no matter how stiff, will vibrate if excited at its natural harmonic frequency. This is the reason why armies break formation when crossing bridges, so their combined, uniform steps won't accidently start the bridge bouncing uncontrollably.
The most stiff floor in the world will still bounce a lot if you find the frequency and start bouncing it that way.
Two ways to avoid this from being annoying:
1) break up the harmonic (add walls/supports to make several smaller harmonics, or make the floor out of less consistent materials so that they are less likely to all move together, the reason why I think I-joist floors are a little more sensitive to bounciness than dimensional lumber tends to be).
2) increase the frequency of the floor high enough that normal walking won't excite it (add strapping or bridging or some other thing, or by making the span smaller by adding walls will also do this for you).
Note that the need is not for more strength, but only to change the harmonic frequency (which sometimes takes very little mass, applied in just the right way).
Norm
Dave - did you say "...a span of 22'2"...14" BCI 16" oc."? Man oh man, that seems like quite a span for floor joists. Are these 2+1/4" top and bottom flange I-joists? Not second guessing what you did, just interested. That seems like one hell of a span. Love using I-joists.
Yep, that's correct. Well, maybe not exactly correct, but it's what we did. <G>
Good thing I didn't build it the way it was drawn -- the designer called for 11-7/8 joists. I had a feeling that couldn't be right.
The 14 inch I-joists were spec'd for me by my truss dealer/manufacturer. He's first-rate, and has an engineer on staff. Thes guys have never steered me wrong, so I just go with their recommendations.
As it is, this is a very good, solid, comfortable floor.
From the sounds of it, I got lucky, eh? <G>
DRC
If you had 14" I-joists spanning 22', you would almost certainly have a bouncy floor.
I'm surprised the strapping helped.A boss is like a diaper. Always on your butt and constantly full of crap.
Sounds like the 1x3 strapping worked fine.
However, isn't a metal strapping more common? I'm asking because I, too, have a possible upcoming project in this area. In my case, using metal might help keep the ceiling height up.
Can anyone comment on the use of metal vs. wood?
Thanks,
Ragnar
ragnar... if you are going to use metal, they would normally use resilient channel or "high-hat:, but it has about the same depth as wood furring, it's a little straighter, maybe a little cheaper...but you usually screw it up instead of nail it..Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks for the additional info.
Ragnar
Missed that discussion too....strapping is standard in the half of Canada I've worked in. We can buy 1 x 3 or 1 x 4 at the yards.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.SWAY too conservative to be merely right wing
Well, if they do it in at least 1/2 of Canada, that speaks for itself.
Yup....and as you know, I'm technically qualified to speak for all of Canada, on any subject. Cuz we got together and had that vote and everything. As long as I don't commit to anything financial, without checking.
(actually, it does seem to divide into two halves....Ontario on east does things one way, the west does it another, in some areas, and from what I've seen, and given that we have a national building code. I've even heard tell one guy in B.C bought a wormdrive recently).cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.SWAY too conservative to be merely right wing
Just to keep you updated Adrian he traded in the wormdrive for for two PC sidewinders , left and right. Now he is allowed to work all the way to the manitoba border. :)
Rik Victoria B.C.
Hey Dave,
That's great news. I like hearing about success stories. As luck would have it, I am in the same situation as you: Too much vibration and bounce with I-Joists's. Can you please give more details about your strapping project as I am just a few weeks away from sheet rocking my ceilings. Thanks Dave.
Tim
glad it helped out... we've just always strapped our ceilings..16" OC..either (1) 8d or (2) 6d in each joist
of course, this being new england .. almost everyone does...and they sell furring in all the lumber yards, when i started, furring was 1x4.....now it's 1x3
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore